War in Heaven II - Spirit of Vengeance (Over!)

[DrippingGoofball]

dgb, even if copter was a SK, what would you have the town do?

Give him all their heals in the hope that he changes his evil ways, of course.

[Albert B. Rampage]

That is correct. That you would even bring up rof-SK is hella scummy, because any neutral alignment is going to play to kill fallen angels right now.

[DrippingGoofball]

That is correct. That you would even bring up rof-SK is hella scummy, because any neutral alignment is going to play to kill fallen angels right now.

So we should let copter live because after mowing the town down, he's now going to be a good little serial killing rabbit and hit the scum instead?

Hahahha

I don't know what you two are up to, but it's unholy.

[The Fonz]

now.
OR
Fonz has been playing us all game and that I should wait until tomorrow, hurt him and then finish him. Especially after his reasonless hurt on me.

Reasonless? You basically singlehandedly killed an Ophan. And have played UTR. And no other fucker seems to have even look at you. That spells scum. And right now, if the town doesn't kill scum AND soon, it's fucked. That's why i hurt you.

[Firestarter]

And have played UTR. And no other fucker seems to have even look at you. That spells scum. And right now, if the town doesn't kill scum AND soon, it's fucked. That's why i hurt you.

Reminds me of you, Fonz...

[The Fonz]

How the fuck have I played UTR? Have you read a fucking thing i've said?

[The Fonz]

Also, if you want unreasoned, look at q21 himself.

[Nuwen]

say nuwen, would you agree to having your blade directed by q21?

Not without another reread (I'm on cooldown for awhile anyway). At this point, I'm not taking any invites to hurt/heal at face value.

[Yosarian2]

Ok; I guess I'll do my normal "read through with game and note random points as I go”.

Page 4: stratagy discussion, Albert and Kinetic argue about stratagy; Kinetic arguing for town taking their time, Albert arguing for speed to counter “rage” points, everyone seems to agree that town should heal everyone 1 hp and dosn’t hurt people at random. (I’m a little fuzzy about the stratagy myself, this is my first “War in Heaven game”, but the logic makes sense.) This is followed by Rofl completly ignoring all this and hurting Kinetic. Seems odd to me.


Page 5: Albert attacks Kinetic. I don’t really agree, but he’s being logical and agressivly scumhunting, which actually makes me feel better about Albert. I like it a lot better then rofl’s unexplanined damage of Kinetic, anyway.

right, hoopla dies right after kinetic

i love how i always make the scum squirm right away

Ugh. This post feels so scummy.

Page 6: Albert continues to look pro-town-ish, especally with how he responds to rofl’s clique stuff. Scum Albert would be more tempted to use that to his advantage, I think.
I would fos vIQleS for his silly “no fos yet, but your close” response to Albert’s vote, but he’s apparently town according to the first post.
Page 7: Hmm. Scum Shinnen votes rofl.
Lol at Xyl.

I concur. Xyl is also quick to come to conclusions without any evidence.

rofl and Xyl are still town.

So you think quick conclusions are scummy, eh?

Not sure what you mean here, Nuwen, but I don’t think anyone could claim that jumping to conclusions is a reliable DGB scumtell of any type, lol; DGB jumping to random conclusions pretty much just is a sign that DGB is playing the game.
Page 11:

DGB, thoughts on Shinnen_no_Me?

Yeah, Albert is still town.

I read ABR like a book. I have a total town read on him. I'm willing to stake my reputation on it.

He is, but I will note that using the phrase “I am willing to stake my reputation on it” is perhaps the single scummiest thing a person can say, hah.

Read up to page 14 so far...

[Nuwen]

Re Q21's claim:

We don't need to believe or disbelieve it. Henceforth, the town control Q21's zeal points. If his claim is a complex scum gambit to explain his actions under DGB's watch, then we're actually controlling rage points - this is double plus good. I doubt his claim comes from scum; we've already decided that

town

needed a setup boost, not scum. I'm not going to speculate about a scum equivalent unless one makes itself particularly evident. Creating strange, unexpected roles to explain behavior is going to further convolute an already-murky game.

Logistics of controlling Q21:

There are clear factions forming right now. Players from each camp will be selecting targets for Q21, to reduce the risk of one scum-controlled faction gaining extra damage.

[DrippingGoofball]

I should get some flavor if Q21 uses his power under my watch.

[Mr. Flay]

SECOND DAMAGE TALLY OF THE TWENTY-THIRD ÆON

DrippingGoofball, Nuwen, q21, The Fonz, and Yosarian2 are all at normal HP.

Albert B. Rampage has 1 damage.
roflcopter has 2 damage.
populartajo and Firestarter have 3 damage each.

[DrippingGoofball]

The re-read is taking me a lot of time, so what I'm going to so is to post my analysis to page 30. Everything important is usually played out early. It's going to give us something to chew on while I continue with pages 30-60.

[DrippingGoofball]

Page 2: Friendly banter exclusive between Shinnen and ABR.

Hoopla starts our really scummy, first to random hurt a player, and when told this is a bad strategy by Cybele, Kinetic and tajo, defends it. It takes a lot of work from these 3 players, but they get her to change her ways.

ABR doesn't comment on this. He does complain that "I don't understand the healing of players that haven't taken damage yet. Somebody explain?" He opposes something that makes it harder for the scum to kill townies. Yet, he somehow persuades two players to heal

him

.

On page 6, potatojo posts the following votecount:

Kinetic. 5(Tajo, ABR, Shinnen, Cybele, rolf)
Rolf 2 (Hoopla, Tenchi)
Xyl 2 (viqles, zwet)
Hoopla 2(q21, Tenchi)
Viqles 1 (ABR, Kinetic)
Cybele 1 (Kinetic)

Look. ABR, and Shinnen, whom I believe he bus'ed on day 1, AND copter, are all over Kinetic. Why? Again, they have to start to grind on Kinetic early in the game, because it'll be an uphill battle taking him down.

Page 8-11. ABR wants to force everyone to choose between Viqles(town), Xyl(soon-t-be-town), and Shinnen. "DGB, thoughts on Shinnen_no_Me?" HA-AH! Since there was NO case against Shinnen at that time, the request could only be a trap After I express my lack of enthusiasm for Shinnen, he decides to include me in his 'scumteam.' Why? Because ABR is scum, and he wants to tie me to Shinnen.

I urge all players to check

Page 13: Shinnen announces intent to hurt ABR. Bus! Bus! Distancing! Bus!

Page 16: Shinnen wrote: "Scumgroup: rofl, tajo, xyl, abr." ONE OF THESE IS SCUM. And it's not Xyl.

"FOS Juls - Your case against Xyl is OMGUS, he isn't even pursuing his attacks against you. You have yet to contribute anything else."

SPECIAL NOTE: ABR ATTEMPTS TO GET TOWN CRED FOR FONZ AND HIMSELF
"zwet case --> too light.
ward case --> non-existent.
shinen case --> no one is backing it except me and Fonz
Xyl case --> non-existent"

Page 19: Defends WWishbone early on, and picks a fight with Xyl-town. Sounds like ABR knows WWishbone's alignment.

Page 20: "Walt, you better hurt shinnen, hoopla or zwet." More bus'ing.

Shinnen has hurt two people. copter, and ABR. I believe these are her buddies.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 60#1562060 ABR taunts me for my lack of hurts, which, as he should be able to guess, has something to do with my being an Ophan. He's fishing for Ophanim.

ABR 'tests' me by demanding that I hurt Shinnen (which I know will not be a valid action) but he knows that scum could administer a secret rage point, and make it look like I lied.

WLC-town speaks from the netherworld: " I have a really bad feeling about ABR. He seems to be manipulating. And you're only manipulating if you're scum, otherwise you just have to argue and investigate."

Keeps with the Shinnen bus, even though Shinnen hasn't posted in a while: "We need people to kill Shinnen instead of dragging this out."

Page 24: " I'm pretty much willing to lynch DGB because this whole exchange between Kinetic and DGB looks like it was set up by scum."

Get his Kuato Juls to hurt Shinnen.

If there's any doubt with my assertion that Shinnen wasn't obvscum, viQlEs said: "I read something that made me think that Shinnen was more likely town then hoopla"
Also, WaltWishbone thought Shinnen was town. I too, got caught in the mood of the moment, but now that I read the game again, there was no reason.

Page 27: More from WLC-town "What I don’t like about ABR is that he presents himself in a somewhat commanding tone. He gives directions to people. But he doesn’t necessarily follow that direction, and takes on a different direction himself. He also uses special text with his ‘hurt’, which is something that I absolutely don’t trust."

Here, ABR tries to use his Day 1 bus town cred to drown me: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 85#1564185 - the contest is unfair, because it's clear ABR knew Shinnen's alignment, and I didn't.

LOOK! The scum are fighting amongst themselves to see who gets the most town cred for bus'ing Shinnen:

also, fonz and albert, stop trying to take all the credit for the shinnen kill, some of that shit is mine.

I didn't take credit

anywhere

, and roflcopter, make yourself scarce as I lynch DGB without your consent.

eh, its not totally without my consent, i'm just not gonna help as i have more important things to do with my fury. i see where you're coming from though. and i guess that was fonz who took the credit for both of you, my bad. but yes i'll keep score

Rofl: I attacked her first, and without wavering. It was I who pointed out the reasons why she was scum. I don't think it's wrong to say that i deserve a substantial portion of the credit. (You hurt Hoopla first, and went on to say you'd hurt whichever was closer to death- you only really went for Shinnen after she hurt you).

Page 29: "Players I trust:
Fonz - Copter - Xyl - Tajo - Nuwen"

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 70#1564270 Here, copter makes a case on Hoopla based almost entirely on Hoopla not believing the Shinnen wagon. That's how they're using their town cred; to target more townies. ABR is a step ahead of copter, and he asks Hoopla specifically for her opinion on me.

More abuse of illicitly acquired town cred:

If Shinnen flips scum, I'll bet at least half the scum is in the list of people that ABR is pushing for the rest of us to hurt.

If this is what you think, then you should probably lay off of me until we kill some of the players that are "in the list of people that ABR is pushing for the rest of us to hurt". Starting with Hoopla.

Page 29. Copter and ABR gang up on Hoopla. Hoopla is being accused for missing out on the Shinnen lynch, and also for attacking ABR.

[DrippingGoofball]

Summary of ABR case: It is clear to me that Shinnen was a classic Day 1 bus maneuvre. The scum kill one of their own, then discredit every player that did not participate in the bus, and use their freshly acquired town cred to start killing off townies. The early camaraderie with Shinnen, and the fierce wagon based on little evidence supports this. There are signs of Fonzie, copter and ABR wanting to make sure the town knows that the 'credit' for the Shinnen lynch goes to them, and they have a little tiff over it. Other players have repeatedly noticed that ABR keeps pushing on certain players, but hurting others. It's as if he's trying to spread out the damage to help the scum pick off townies. He's pushing the townies to spread the damage. Also, these three players don't hurt each other, so they still have a lot of HP.

CONCLUSION: ABR must die.

[DrippingGoofball]

Right on page 4, roflcopter hurts Kinetic, not waiting for the vote system to kick in. THat's the second hurt of the game. Now, Kinetic is a good town player, so, you have to start hurting and discredditing him early.

Later, still on page 4, copter writes: "i am in favor of everyone who's pussyfooting around with fake votes just hurting [Kinetic] dead instead."

On page 5, "also, tajo, might as well count me in the votecount for kinetic, since i'm just gonna keep hurting him." I URGE everyone to read Kinetic up to page 5. Did Kinetic do or say anything remotely scummy? No. Seraphim noted: "Rofl's crazy attacking is noted." But have we done anything all game? Beingn total pushovers doesn't count for "doing something."

Shinnen makes her first content post of the game on page 7. What does she do? She votes copter. Ah... if you're going to distance, distance early and often! Otherwise, nothing strikingly scummy about it.

Again on page 7, copter tunnels on Kinetic. "anyone who wants to join the brute squad, make your intentions known by hurting kinetic the next time you can take an action." And look at Kinetic's lucid response: "The more I think about it, the more I feel the best scum strategy is a highly aggressive one. Especially if they can make it look townie to be aggressive." More on page 8: "i wish everyone hadn't wasted their action healing people so they could be hurting kinetic instead."

On page 12, copter switches from Kinetic to Seraphim, another townie. He hurts Seraphim, and starts another of his famous townie tunnels.

On page 13, copter continues on more townies: poptajo is losing all town credit at an incredible rate. seraphim and hoopla need to die post haste, and every 24 hours i will be hurting seraphim until he is dead, then i'll start on hoopla. hoopla healing kinetic is extra scummy.

Also, Seraphim states that he intends to hurt copter. Seraph caught scum and he's going to have to die.

Page 16: Shinnen wrote: "Scumgroup: rofl, tajo, xyl, abr." ONE OF THESE IS SCUM. And it's not Xyl.

Shinnen has hurt two people. copter, and ABR. I believe these are her buddies.

Page 22: "so one of me and shin still has to be scum" OK, if there is only one scum Seraph, that's actually a TOWN tell. But if there are two scum Seraphs, then it's a mega scumtell. That one is up in the air.

copter rages against Seraphim-town
copter rages against Kinetic-town
copter rages against Hoopla-town
hammers Shinnen.
This is VERY VERY DAMNING:
"shh... be a good scum and die without any more wifom" Get that??? Shut up now, Shinnen, before you give your buddies away.

Then, copter realizes he screwed up: "oh you're probably right, but i was talking to hoopla. she's the one who should be a good scum and die." But read the context; there's no way this is to hoopla. NO WAY.

LOOK! The scum are fighting amongst themselves to see who gets the most town cred for bus'ing Shinnen:

also, fonz and albert, stop trying to take all the credit for the shinnen kill, some of that shit is mine.

I didn't take credit

anywhere

, and roflcopter, make yourself scarce as I lynch DGB without your consent.

eh, its not totally without my consent, i'm just not gonna help as i have more important things to do with my fury. i see where you're coming from though. and i guess that was fonz who took the credit for both of you, my bad. but yes i'll keep score

Rofl: I attacked her first, and without wavering. It was I who pointed out the reasons why she was scum. I don't think it's wrong to say that i deserve a substantial portion of the credit. (You hurt Hoopla first, and went on to say you'd hurt whichever was closer to death- you only really went for Shinnen after she hurt you).

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 70#1564270 Here, copter makes a case on Hoopla based almost entirely on Hoopla not believing the Shinnen wagon. That's how they're using their town cred; to target more townies.

[DrippingGoofball]

Summary of copter case: Many parallels with ABR, especially on the Shinnen bus, with the additional sin that copter zeroes in on the players that most of us think are town. Attacks are not even reasoned. There's something very odd going on, role-wise. There are connections to ABR (stronger than those between ABR and Fonzie), but in many ways he acts like a fearless free agent. I see Fonzie and ABR going after players for which they think they can garner town support, while copter takes out the players that will be harder to lynch by town concensus. He grinds them to within rage point range, and they get picked off.

Conclusion: Copter must die.

[DrippingGoofball]

In Fonz's first substantial post, in addition to voting Kinetic along with the rest of the scumbags on page 8, Fonz calls for intent to hurt Shinnen on account of this:

Heal: Seraphim.

Heal me back!

Also,

Random anything at this point has a 75% chance of hitting town.

How can you be so sure? That's a pretty solid number, you know. The only way you would know that is that you know how much scum there are, hence, you must be a scum as well.

GAHHHHH! REEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAACH!

Call intent to hurt Shinnen no me

This is bus'ing. Being very sure that another player is scum based on flimsy evidence.

In the next post, Fonzie declares that he's against healing.

Page 16, Fonz hurts Shinnen.

SPECIAL NOTE: ABR ATTEMPTS TO GET TOWN CRED FOR FONZ AND HIMSELF
"zwet case --> too light.
ward case --> non-existent.
shinen case --> no one is backing it except me and Fonz
Xyl case --> non-existent"

After Shinnen hurts copter, Fonz hits the roof: "Shinnen just hurt a previously uninjured player. KILL HER!"

If there's any doubt with my assertion that Shinnen wasn't obvscum, viQlEs said: "I read something that made me think that Shinnen was more likely town then hoopla"
Also, WaltWishbone thought Shinnen was town. I too, got caught in the mood of the moment, but now that I read the game again, there was no reason.

Page 27:
In this post, Fonz ridicules WLC for saying: "What I don’t like about ABR is that he presents himself in a somewhat commanding tone. He gives directions to people. But he doesn’t necessarily follow that direction, and takes on a different direction himself. He also uses special text with his ‘hurt’, which is something that I absolutely don’t trust." Fonz says that it's because WLC just doesn't like ABR's personality.

LOOK! The scum are fighting amongst themselves to see who gets the most town cred for bus'ing Shinnen:

also, fonz and albert, stop trying to take all the credit for the shinnen kill, some of that shit is mine.

I didn't take credit

anywhere

, and roflcopter, make yourself scarce as I lynch DGB without your consent.

eh, its not totally without my consent, i'm just not gonna help as i have more important things to do with my fury. i see where you're coming from though. and i guess that was fonz who took the credit for both of you, my bad. but yes i'll keep score

Rofl: I attacked her first, and without wavering. It was I who pointed out the reasons why she was scum. I don't think it's wrong to say that i deserve a substantial portion of the credit. (You hurt Hoopla first, and went on to say you'd hurt whichever was closer to death- you only really went for Shinnen after she hurt you).

[DrippingGoofball]

Summary of Fonz case: Of all three players, one of the most obvious bus'ers, on account of his overly strong accusations based on extremely weak evidence, followed by bickering to get his share of town cred. Defends ABR against WLC-town with ridicule. The case against Fonzie is shorter than the case against ABR and copter, but Fonzie is a much more clever, and sneaky player.

Conclusion: Fonz must die.

[DrippingGoofball]

Nuwen:

Page 8
"I can get behind a vIQles hurtfest, but Coptor and DGBs omgtown and omgscum proclaims still irk the shit out of me." Well, that's the point, to irk the scum.

Page 26
Late on the Shinnen wagon.

Every bus needs a scum late comer, which might be Nuwen. I'm going to mention the hammer on WWB that a few people named as THE main reason why Nuwen may be scum, even though it happens later in the game.

[DrippingGoofball]

Summary of case against Nuwen: Late on Shinnen, not liking aggressive players, hammer on WWB. I think the biggest issue with Nuwen is rolebased, that is, if copter flips town, then Nuwen must be scum. The very recent realization that we have some powerful town roles puts a bit of a monkey wrench in that theory. If killing Seraphim is a 50-50 gamble of hitting scum, then it would be like shooting fish in a barrel, and I don't think Flay would lack the foresight to give the scum away on highly visible role info, like being an obv Seraphim on account of the italicized blade flavor text.

Conclusion: behavior mostly town, may need to be killed on rolebased deductions.

[DrippingGoofball]

populattajo;

Page 8:
"Now start scumhunting like your other games. Its not different.
Vote : Shinnen.
Die scum die. "

Page 15 http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 86#1560486 Here again, he calls for Shinnen to die, calling Shinnen obvscum. THere was nothing obscum about SHinnen.

Page 16: Shinnen wrote: "Scumgroup: rofl, tajo, xyl, abr." ONE OF THESE IS SCUM. And it's not Xyl.

Page 24: "Being an Ophanim doesnt mean obvtown, btw." Keeps waffling throughout the game on this concept like a mad toggle button.

[The Fonz]

Re Q21's claim:

We don't need to believe or disbelieve it. Henceforth, the town control Q21's zeal points.

Uh, dude... If HE HAS zeal points, he has to be telling the truth.

If his claim is a complex scum gambit to explain his actions under DGB's watch, then we're actually controlling rage points - this is double plus good. I doubt his claim comes from scum; we've already decided that

town

needed a setup boost, not scum.

What I would suggest is that this being true makes a 2-2 seraph distribution FAR more likely.

There are clear factions forming right now. Players from each camp will be selecting targets for Q21, to reduce the risk of one scum-controlled faction gaining extra damage.

Did you notice the pattern of this game at all? IE, every time factions coalesce the town members of each die?

Frankly, all other things being equal, q21 still feels like scum to me. But if his claim is untrue, we're likely fucked anyway. So I'll roll with it, and ask him to try to look at my play unclouded by the self-defence instinct, and note that my play basically comes down to three cases I pushed seriously: Shinnen, Seraphim, and himself. (I was willing to plant the flag, and try to get rid of 'obvscum' q21 as a last desperate gamble to save the town. So sue me). I also hurt WLC to enforce 'no hurting without support.'

How is that 'insidious?' I've been front and centre.

This is something I never though I'd say... but DGB's basically the one player in this game who hasn't been consistently wrong.

[DrippingGoofball]

Summary of case against populartajo:

Part of Shinnen bus. Maybe have drunk the scum's kool-aid. Also, Shinnen wrote: "Scumgroup: rofl, tajo, xyl, abr." And I don't think she put three buddies in there. One, maybe two, but not three. Tajo's reactions later in game, that aren't part of my notes above, reassured me that he was town, despite mindless scum following. That's, however, a subjective evaluation, and others may hold different opinions.

Conclusion: I'm not in favor of killing potajo, certainly not before copter/ABR.

[DrippingGoofball]

Uh, dude... If HE HAS zeal points, he has to be telling the truth.

If q21 uses his zeal points during my watch, I may be able to confirm that they are 'zeal points' rather than 'rage points.'