Open 127 (Lovers Nightless -- GAME OVER) before 761

[mith]

(See what I did there? "Hitting the mattresses"? Because she's Mafia, and they're Lovers... get it? Ha.)

[-TinVision-]

Eighth Vote Count of the Day

Plum (2) -- ortolan, mith
Empking (1) -- Plum
sekinj (1) -- zwetschenwasser
ortolan (1) -- sekinj

Not voting (1) -- Empking

With six alive, it is four to lynch.

[zwetschenwasser]

Unvote; Vote: Plum

[ortolan]

This single line is extremely scummy, from the deferral to mith for reasoning for attacking me, to the extremely vague (itself a misrepresentation? ) accusation of misrepresentation, to the fact she doesn't have the guts to vote me, but merely FoSes me.

You took a quote from me about Empking completely out of context in your argument for a mith/Plum scumteam. That was blatant misrepresentation, which concerned me a lot. You made a similarly stupid attack on mith, again in the context of a Plum/mith scumteam, which mith himself addressed.

Firstly, this is doesn't even fully deal with what you've quoted. Why did you FoS rather than vote me? Secondly, I have re-read and I'm not even sure what quote I took entirely out of context? Finally, do you think you can just generalise like that "you made a similarly stupid attack on mith, which mith himself addressed" without even quoting what you're referring to?

No argument against my argument that you took my statement completely out of context, but not an acknowledgement thereof in sight. Do you think if you don't mention it I'll forget? Here - we both have expressed in the thread knowledge that mith has a propensity for not getting lynched as Town. I see your point that a scumbuddy of mith's could try to use that to his or her advantage in this game. You do not, however, prove the point that what I said was an attempt to do that sort of thing. Explain?

Okay, I'll be more specific. mith himself saying that he doesn't get lynched as town is I suppose fair enough with a track record like that. It proves nothing either way.

You

however pulling it out, however, is scummy, if for no other reason than the fact you clearly should not know his alignment and therefore whether it is relevant to this game, if you are town.

I've had more exerience with Zwets, which might have caused me to express feelings about the difficulty of reading him more strongly. I'm willing to agree to that statement and work to hunt scum from all the players despite it. You are, too?

I've had loads of experience with both Empking and zwet. I would have thought you were aware of Empking's meta also. They are very similar in being difficult to read, except that it's manifested differently.

And of your points about my speculation on interactions between you and mith- think of them as like "circumstantial evidence", not damning by itself but it supports the case.

No, actually. My main thought is that having multiple, even many, bandwagons form (with reasoning and not randomly) Day 1 would be optimal - this is the strategy on which I had been musing.

Well that's kind of fair enough, except how is "having multiple bandwagons form" a "strategy"? Are you so good you deliberately orchestrated people's reactions to create just the right amount of tension between a variety of players in order that "multiple bandwagons would form"?

So, Ort, you still have a strong belief in a mith/Plum pairing? Explain? You neglected to post a full scumpairing analysis, instead arguing strongly for that pairing, I note.

Yes. To extensively analyse other tells when I see/saw such a strong connection would be disingenuous. This setup does not really have the sometimes-present-in-mafia elements of a "logic puzzle". We have no night interactions or role-claims to go off, it's mainly psychological- certainly on day one of this setup anyhow.

At the moment, I think I may even go so far as to say that I think you are the most likely candidate for scumscumscum if Plum is innocent

This lining-up-of-lynches is interesting. It increases the likelihood of you being scum, but actually decreases the likelihood of a pairing between yourself and Plum, because there would be no benefit to lining up lynches with your partner first for obvious reasons.

The attack that mith was trying to earn townie points 'uncalled for' is a badly-expressed weak suspicion at best and a logical fallacy at worst, as, in general, everyone is concerned with looking town.

A pantomime of being town and the genuine townies attempt to catch scum while not dropping scum-tells themselves are two different things.

The attack that mith was trying to earn townie points 'uncalled for' is a badly-expressed weak suspicion at best and a logical fallacy at worst, as, in general, everyone is concerned with looking town.

"Okay, I admit I'm scummy, but mith isn't!" Goes back to my earlier point about you pulling out mith's defences for him, for an odd reason. Again this doesn't necessarily increase the chance of Plum-mith pairing (scum defend town to look good when they die, not that mith is looking like he's going to die right now) but increases your individual chance of being scum, because you simply should not be so sure of mith-town.

The case is almost completely baseless aside from accusations which are either stupid at best or downright scummy at worst.

This is far from the first time you've just thrown out a huge generalisation without justification like this.

Sekinj - a bunch of her latest posts are short bits of stuff which don't entirely address new issues. She's asked some decent questions, I suppose, but I'm interested in seeing some new analysis out of her. Especially because her relative tendency to not come up in my mind when I run through the game mentally gives me a very bad gut feeling.

Um wow did you just solely appeal to your own mental state to justify why sekinj is scummy? Die scum.

The gambit, or whatever you'd like to term it, wasn't smart and had more downsides than potential benefits (qualitatively, not quantitatively) - I believe that and it's what I'd call the general consensus. Scummy or not? was the question, which I eventually believed to be a 'yes'. Especially having considered the fact that Empking stated that he agreed that 'as a general rule you should only hammer players you actively suspect, rather than hammering an arbitrarily chosen-in-advance player' but argued that in the case of this game, if the town knew about hammer-resolution in advance, after the good arguments put forth against it (to summarize: being pressured by your declaration to hammer someone you feel is

not

scum, scum could use it as an excuse to hammer an innocent, townie-Emp looking scummy if you avoid hammering because you don't believe specified player is scum, etc.). The useless diversion into whether mith's playstyle - specifically

general post length

was closer to his scum or town meta, especially as his argument that it was closer to the scum meta was based on multiple clearly stupid assumptions, was obviously useless, unhelpful, and distracting.

"In this game Empking is mildly anti-town for pursuing a hopeless or neutral point relentlessly ergo he is scum."

Looks like typical Empking to me. It's a null-tell in his case but jumping on him for it adds another scumpoint to you. And how is any diversion "useless". Admittedly the manner of his attack on mith sometimes was downright wierd (metaing a 6 year old game and then saying he gets the best idea of meta from mini theme games LOL), but you at least should be attacking him for that rather than the generic and itself meritless "it was a useless diversion, therefore he is scum."

Having said that . . . but wait, I'll leave that until the end. Analysis of mith:

A lot of his early play was focused on Empking; understandable, and his arguments were reasonable. Rereading, however, I do have a couple of questions:

They always do.

I haven't seen exactly where and why you came to the first conclusion or what you mean by 'striking'. I see that later you think he might be using it to try to look town rather than help town and that it would therefore slightly indicate Emp-scum.

Here are you interpreting mith's arguments for him. Stop sucking up to him. This has me thinking you're scum but independently of him. Thus your most likely partner would be...you guessed it, my second contender, sekinj.

I haven't seen exactly where and why you came to the first conclusion or what you mean by 'striking'. I see that later you think he might be using it to try to look town rather than help town and that it would therefore slightly indicate Emp-scum.

You could probably call "detours" like this scummy in a larger game but, come on, this is 6-player. You can still say what you like. We're still only 10 pages in anyhow. Either way the fact of having created a detour in itself, either deliberately or unintentionally isn't necessarily scummy.

- Hypocrisy: Criticizes me for not taking a strong stance on Empking's declaration early (he calls it 'useless-looking', I believe) but doesn't elaborate himself, and when asked about Empking, matching up with an example of Emp's scum meta, etc., says only

I find it hard to distinguish Empking-town from Empking-scum. That said perhaps he is a bit more aggressive as scum.

Please read the game I linked, where I was scum with Empking. Tell me if you noticed anything unusually scummy about him from it, and tell me if you see any comparisons between it and this game. The same still applies for everyone else. I was being completely genuine in my "poker face" assessment of Empking.

More points on my scummy spin gets you the "circumstantial evidence" response again. That's how I roll.

Suspects, New List:

Ort
Emp
Zwets -- sek
mith

Pairings, this time correctly weighing things in my mind, but, as it's late, without extensive comentary.

Ort/Emp - 7
Ort/Zwets - 6.5
Ort/sek - 6.5
Ort/mith - 6
Emp/sek - 5.5
sek/mith - 5
Emp/Zwets - 4.5
Zwets/mith - 4.5
Zwets/sek - 3.5
Emp/mith - 3

Totals are approximate and subject to change.

LOL @ Plum (hey, rhymes with scum ) now having me as the most likely scum-partner with...EVERYONE! After having accused me of myself posting disingenuously/apathetically by only naming my top 2 suspect pairs she proceeds to update her list to imply "ortolan is almost equally likely to be scum with pretty much everyone except myself. ortolan is scum. over and out."

[ortolan]

At the beginning he seemed to try too hard to give emp the benefit of the doubt and understand his point of view, and then trying to 'help' mith understand emp. Although he says emp is hard to get a read on (which I agree with) look at the difference in the way he reacts to emp and the way I reacted to emp. This may be too fine a point, but thinking emp's behavior is a null tell (me) is different than excusing that behavior (ort).

I have never argued Empking's behaviour is anything other than a null-tell. Ironically I find players like himself and zwet and even myself in my more unbridled/downright bad times can be useful in that they attract scum to vote for them with justifications which can be ultimately exposed to be scummy, because they do not ultimately cohere with the scumplayer's other expressed beliefs. This is my justification for my offensive. And I don't like your "this may be too fine a point" clause plus "this is inconsistent with how I'd react therefore it is scummy". Entirely WIFOM-y.

"Ironically both mith and Plum's metas are apparently quite townie, and interestingly they've directed all their efforts towards Empking and zwet, who we know scum-tells are most unreliable with."
apparently ort suspects mith and plum for acting townie? and excuses emp and zwet because of their meta? seems backwards...

This is clearly not what I was saying, and was elaborated on in my above post. Hell, mith agreed with some of my points on scum even though my case was originally for a Plum/mith scumpair.

I think ort fabricated the connection between mith and plum.

most likely scum I believe is ort. I see lots of connection between him and emp, and slight less between him and zwet.

Parroting Plum very blatantly and failing to critique her. Think we've got a femme fatale scum-team on us here guys.

Regarding Emp, the way he answered my questions (and his tone in doing so) led me to believe he genuinely thinks his hammah plan was a reasonable course of action for a pro-town player (whether or not he is pro-town is a separate question). By "striking", I meant more noticable; I got a much clearer view of how everyone was treating Empking (and myself) than I would have just calling it a dumb plan and/or ignoring it. It's not why I voted him (I voted him because he was my top suspect)

This seems pretty disingenuous. Didn't the way he answered your questions in large part

constitute

the reason he voted for you?

Sekinj, what, if anything, do you think your questions along the lines of 'X, do you think Y is your scumbuddy' will achieve?

What, if anything, you do think busing your scumbuddy will achieve in a Lovers setup?

Ortolan, still waiting for any new thoughts on your proposed mith/Plum scumteam, and, if possible, a complete list of pairing suspicions, because I believe you expended most of your energy to arguing for the former and neglected the latter.

Yes, I did, and unashamedly so. And like a good townie I've updated my suspicions in light of new evidence. But don't worry, you're still scum, just mith is no longer your scum-buddy.

If not for the ort/zwet possibility, I would be ready to suggest we lynch Plum and Emp in some order and win the game.

That sounds like a good cross-section of the populace. But screw you if you're going to use the same "lining up lynches" point I just made against you

[ortolan]

wow I'm a little bit out of it/drunk/Freudian:

This is clearly not what I was saying, and was elaborated on in my above post. Hell, mith agreed with some of my points on scum even though my case was originally for a Plum/mith scumpair.

I actually meant "some of my points on Plum" LoL!

This seems pretty disingenuous. Didn't the way he answered your questions in large part

constitute

the reason he voted for you?

"

constitute

the reason

you

voted for

him?

"

[sekinj]

I think ort fabricated the connection between mith and plum.

most likely scum I believe is ort. I see lots of connection between him and emp, and slight less between him and zwet.

Parroting Plum very blatantly and failing to critique her. Think we've got a femme fatale scum-team on us here guys.

No. My post was immediately after Plums and in fact I was writing it while she posted. I did not see hers until after I posted mine. therefore, (although I doubt you will beleive this, scum) we actually came to the same conclusion independantly.

[sekinj]

Sekinj, what, if anything, do you think your questions along the lines of 'X, do you think Y is your scumbuddy' will achieve?

What, if anything, you do think busing your scumbuddy will achieve in a Lovers setup?

You are not even trying to hide the fact that you are not reading from an objective prespective anymore. If you were, shouldn't this go into your evidence of why you are WRONG? not into your evidence of why plum is stupid?

[sekinj]

by the way - I will not be changing my vote away from ort. so you'll have to get emp on your side in order to lynch plum.

[ortolan]

I doubt that will be hard

[quote="sekinj (232)You are not even trying to hide the fact that you are not reading from an objective prespective anymore. If you were, shouldn't this go into your evidence of why you are WRONG? not into your evidence of why plum is stupid?[/quote]

Um...no?

No. My post was immediately after Plums and in fact I was writing it while she posted. I did not see hers until after I posted mine. therefore, (although I doubt you will beleive this, scum) we actually came to the same conclusion independantly.

Well, yer, you're right (I don't believe it). Especially considering scum can day-talk in this setup anyway.

[sekinj]

they can? I actually didn't notice this lovers game had that

[Empking]

I'm getting a definate Sekinj/Plum link but...

Zwet: Why did you vote plum?

[ortolan]

...

Please hammer Plum, sekinj

I promise you can lynch me tomorrow if she flips town.

[mith]

Interesting. Plum/sek just shot back up to likely, Plum/zwet quite unlikely unless zwet is bluffing (and given Emp is one of the non-voters and is probably the most likely to hammer unless he's scum with her - in which case zwet isn't - that would take some guts).

Vote stays; I'm still confident in my read of Plum.

ortolan: Yes. What's disingenuous about that? His responses led me to believe both that he was being genuine in his expressed belief that the plan was pro-town, and that he was scum (trying to look town with said plan); the former came from just his responses on the plan, the latter more from other things (the OMGUS vote, others' reactions, etc.). Further questioning and responses, along with Plum jumping up the list, led to the unvote.

[sekinj]

...

Please hammer Plum, sekinj

I promise you can lynch me tomorrow if she flips town.

Really? if you are serious then I'm all in.

[mith]

Doh, simulpost madness.

Plum/Emp now most likely. I expected an immediate Emp hammer otherwise.

[ortolan]

Um, yes of course I'm serious.

Right now please, before I go to bed.

[sekinj]

in preparation for ort's response:

unvote

[sekinj]

Um, yes of course I'm serious.

Right now please, before I go to bed.

very well. I will be takign you up on that.

vote: plum

[-TinVision-]

Final Vote Count of the Day

Plum (4)

-- ortolan, mith, zwetschenwasser, sekinj

Empking (1) -- Plum

Not voting (1) -- Empking

Plum has been lynched. He was a

Townie

. It is now Day Two. With five alive, it is three to lynch.

[mith]

Great, now I have to go reread. I'll be back later.

[ortolan]

well I'm fucking retarded

I swear it's a conspiracy against me, TinVision posted 6 minutes after the bloody hammer.

I will try to save myself from the gallows tomorrow (my time)

[Empking]

Vote: Sekinj

- For the crowd pleasing hammer.

[sekinj]

vote: emp

for going after the easy target

[Empking]

vote: emp

for going after the easy target

Going after the legitimately scummy target whether easy or not is not a scum tell.