Mini 768- Root of All Evil (Game Over)

[molestargazer]

Vote: Jazzmyn

The inability to spell 'jasmine' obviously means that she's dropped out of school and become involved in criminal activities.

[molestargazer]

You're not touching my family jewels, obvscum.

Don't worry, I'm not that way inclined.
But seriously. Read the avatar. That is the truth. Take it into account. Please?

I am going to vote for Pablo Molinero. I believe that he is the weakest player, and so most prone to revealing his alignment under pressure, and should he be town-aligned, would be least damaging to the town dead. I would appreciate additional votes to cause pressure on Pablo Molinero. Until then, I will place my vote accordingly: Vote: Pablo Molinero. Thank you for your time.

So, you want to lynch someone without any evidence for him being scum just because he's not worth the most to the town? Give the guy a chance.

Please direct all counter arguments now, failure to do so will be regarded as implicit agreement with my strategy, failure to follow my strategy while being in agreement with it will warrant suspicion.

So, basically, you're saying anyone who doesn't agree with your strategy and vote PM is suspicious? Please see my 'counter-argument' up there.

No, that was, quite obviously, my parents, who saddled me a mis-spelled name. Me, I'm the black sheep of the family for being the white sheep of the family.

Which means your FAMILY were scum! So you've entered the family business? Hm.

thieves don't have that sort of confidence.

What makes you say that?

To me, your vote for my behaviour is suspect, because there is no town motivation for such an action, except sloth, which is no contribution to the town at all.

Unfortunately, people will be lazy, be they townie or scum. You need to make sure people at least read your arguments, if you make them too long people will just skim and miss the facts.

Why are you ignoring what I have posted? Do you then accept my implicit agreement clause and the accompanying suspicion with failure to comply with my plan?

Quite probably because at that time it was still the random voting stage. See above, chances are they've skipped your post. This doesn't make them scum.
Also - are you admitting to a little sloth there, copy-pasting the same argument to three people?

Is this significant, Verbosity, or a mere oversight?

I'd also like to hear this.

Unvote
Vote: Verbosity

1. You're pointlessly querying people in the RVS. Ignoring your post doesn't make them scum.
2. You're perfectly willing to kill someone who is, in all probability, pro-town - or force someone to reveal their role by pressuring them who you have no evidence for being scum.
3. Be concise, dammit.

[molestargazer]

Welcome MafiaSSK - Could I get your opinion on Verbose's play so far?

[molestargazer]

That is not what I said. Jumping to conclusions like that is indicative of scapegoating, and thus is largely scum motivated behaviour. I said that I wanted to apply pressure to him, to get him to crack.

If he is inexperienced as you say, getting him to crack will only elicit so-called 'scummy' behaviour from him, which will lead to a lynch, and in all probability, the death of a townie.
Pressure us fine. Cracking people without evidence to back it up isn't.

I did not in fact demand that everyone agree, did not say that people who disagreed would be scum.

Is that what I said? No.
I said that people who agree AND don't do anything are scum.
I did not say that you demanded people to agree, nor did I say that people who disagreed would be scum. I gave you a counter-argument which showed that I disagreed.

If they skip my post, they are deliberately minimising information for the town, there is only scum motivation for that.

I agree. But you have to cater your posts for your audience. I still believe pro-town players will skip simply because it takes too long.

The copy paste was because the questions were wholly valid, and I only copy pasted once, as I remember.

The copy-paste point wasn't serious, hence the .

This is contradictory. Why is it not scummy to ignore my posts, yet you follow this up with a request for a response?

It is a nulltell to ignore your posts. I wanted to know MafiaSSK's opinion as it's a good starting point for a replacement, and that topic is certainly the one right now. It also served to provide us with another point of view, which is never a bad thing.

[molestargazer]

The principle behind cracking someone is no different to that of pressuring someone.

The principle may be the same, but the difference lies in how far you take it, IMO.

[molestargazer]

It stops being fine at the point where you're pressuring them to the extent where:
a) They make mistakes because of it (Especially if the player is as inexperienced as Verbose states), and end up being lynched, and/or
b) You force them to claim
If you do so without evidence and a sincere belief that they are scum because of that evidence.

If I believed Verbosity's efforts to be purely pressure instead of attempted cracking, then I wouldn't have voted for him/her. It's just the impression I've got.

[molestargazer]

Mod: Vote count?

This is a common misconception. Getting people to crack merely leads them to post in what I like to call a "natural" way, without any guards or screens. In the case of scum, this reveals what they are, in the case of town, it does the same. You just need to know what to see.

I still stand by the viewpoint that new players will not post naturally, their playstyle will become worse under pressure. That's certainly how it was for me - perhaps I'm generalising a bit, but it isn't going to change my opinion.

I'm going to continue as is necessary to fully disclose my thoughts.

I'm going to drop this argument now.
I know I will take time to fully read your posts. Let's move on.

In the interest of good education, common practice is to lynch those who claim jesters or those who you believe to be jesters, they are more often scum than jester. Back to relevance, I am not a jester. If I were a jester, I would have asked for replacement. Jesters are not a role for a decent game, which I believe Battousai knows well. Think I'm scum if you want, but don't insult me like that.

Where did he say you might be a jester?

I feel he's living up to the term verbosity,

we'll know more on day two

Trust me I think Verbosity is blowing wind, and stirring up more trouble then they are worth, but still I am going on the vote that they are townie.

With that said though, and the fact Verbosity has us focused on someone we shouldn't,

we might as well make Verbosity the day one lynch.

Vote: Verbosity

What.

do you now consider the molester the weakest player? or have you moved your vote because of your suspicion of molester?

1) MOLE. My avatar. Read.
2) I would hope that his vote was because he believed I was scum when I disagreed with his initial post and voting, and not because I'm a useless player.

"You're over analyzing on this one"

No such thing, good sir.

I'm 50/50 agree/disagree with this bit.
Yes, it's possible to overanalyse a person's post to draw connotations from it that they simply did not / would not have meant.
However, it isn't possible to look at someone too much if you think they're scum.

Again, you first say I am defending Verbosity like crazy, which I never do.

Saying why you think he is town is pretty much a defence.

the

townie

I think

is most likely scum

is Verbosity.

Eh?

I have seen it noted on occasion that scum will commonly declare the RVS over, usually in an aggressive manner and implying/declaring that it is for the good of the town. I have not come across this myself, but what's your take on that? What do you think of it in light of this game?

I don't think saying that RVS is over is a scumtell. It's merely an indication that said player wants to get on with the game, be it for pro-town or pro-scum purposes. It will heavily depend on the context in which it is said.

Given that "verbosity" means an excess of word use (typically more than necessary to clarify a point)

Hence his posts, which are long. I believe that's what he was trying to get at.

If I'm right, Gateway's on L-3, so I think it's perfectly acceptable to

Unvote
Vote: Gateway

I'd like you to explain
- Why you're voting for someone who you believe is purely a townie
- Why you denied you were defending Verbosity when you were posting why you thought he was Pro-town

Verbosity - Do you still believe I am the best bet for a lynch D1? If so, why?

[molestargazer]

Wow, I have a lot to catch up on.
I should be able to get something later this afternoon.

[molestargazer]

Could you reply earlier if you weren't molestering?

No, no. I was

running people over

having a driving lesson.

I'd like to know more about your switch of vote from Verbosity to Gateway. Is it because you found Gateway more scummy, or Verb less so? A combination of both, perhaps?

Probably a little bit of both.
I've found Verbosity less scummy since his answers are pretty reasonable (Despite his voting me), and voted Gateway because I'd like to hear answers to the questions I posed when I voted him - and indeed, I find him the scummier of the two.

[molestargazer]

Right, catch-up time. I'll go from after my post on P3.

You are generalising, but whether or not you're right is a matter of opinion, more than anything, and I would not want to get into a discussion on theory when we have better things to be doing.

Fine by me.

He said that I might want to be lynched. There's only one role that does that.

Right. Apologies, must've missed that.

Without deaths, cops, or some other information we can only assume everyone is townie on day one

Yes. However, you have provided reasons for why you think he is pro-town. Surely this means you think he is more likely to be pro-town than anyone else, yet you still vote?

So yes my day one strategy is to vote on the -TOWNIE- I think is most likely scum. Since there is no possible way any of us know who is scum on day one.

Surely -PERSON- would fit in there far better? We can't automatically assume everyone is a townie and take no action to think otherwise, that'd be stupid.

and I don't think your a Joker as that would just ruin the game.

A joker would have still ruined the game when you first voted. Why have you changed your mind about the mod's setup?

not a single fact on day one

Know what you mean, but the whole point of discussion on D1 is to gain opinions - it doesn't mean we can't act on them.

Those voting Gateway: Why do you think that his play is indicative of scum, rather than stupid?

Right now I think he is more likely to be scum than you, and I feel he is more likely scum than anyone else I've seen, hence my vote is on him.
If he answers my questions (which, by the way, he still hasn't done), and the answers are reasonable, I'll be perfectly happy to unvote and move on.

I also get the feeling that those of you that suspect Gateway will not switch to molestargazer at any soon point, is that accurate?

I would hope so.

Gateway

- There's a lot been said during Page 4. You're seeming to explain things. I understand what you mean about voting for the scummiest 'townie' - but it wasn't the best way to phrase it.
I apologise if you've already answered this, but I wonder, could you please answer this question I posted in Post 57?

I'd like you to explain
- Why you denied you were defending Verbosity when you were posting why you thought he was Pro-town

Panzer - Your points are good. Not much more I can say about there. Of the two, Verbosity and Gateway, if you had to pick one to be scum who would it be?

I don't care about the FoS, I think you are the first person to understand what I meant.

If he's FoSed there, there's a reason. Could you answer to that regardless of his understanding?

[molestargazer]

By ten o'clock (night phase) I get a list of two possible people one possible scum. I can choose to pass that along in the morning.

Can you please elaborate on this point?

What do you mean 'possible' scum? You mean you get a list of 2 people, and there's a CHANCE that one MIGHT be scum?
I'm assuming you choose said people?
If you choose two townies, one will still display as scum?

[molestargazer]

Gateway, you seem to have a nasty habit of ignoring my posts.
First when I voted you:

I'd like you to explain
- Why you're voting for someone who you believe is purely a townie
- Why you denied you were defending Verbosity when you were posting why you thought he was Pro-town

I never received a direct response.

And again in Post 108. No response.

Gateway - There's a lot been said during Page 4. You're seeming to explain things. I understand what you mean about voting for the scummiest 'townie' - but it wasn't the best way to phrase it.
I apologise if you've already answered this, but I wonder, could you please answer this question I posted in Post 57?

I'd like you to explain
- Why you denied you were defending Verbosity when you were posting why you thought he was Pro-town

And once again in Post 119.

Can you please elaborate on this point?

What do you mean 'possible' scum? You mean you get a list of 2 people, and there's a CHANCE that one MIGHT be scum?
I'm assuming you choose said people?
If you choose two townies, one will still display as scum?

It's not doing anything to convince me of your innocence.
Now, onwards through this very fast game.

Broken in half, explain?

He said broken AND a half. Meaning he thinks it's very broken.

If gateway's claim was fake, don't you think he would have been a little more anxious to spill it? expecially given his demonstrable lack of mafiascum experience?

I doubt it. I think he knows enough to realise that claiming before necessary it's isn't good no matter who you are.

Also, Verbosity, hope you get better soon.

See? gateway does not even understand the concept of a fakeclaim. If he actually received one in his role PM, i don't think he could play this ignorant.

Disagree again. Scum can lie. Just because he's inexperienced doesn't mean he's stupid. I'm starting to wonder why you're protecting him.

FoS: Sekinj

Disagree. For example: what if someone is cop? it is best to keep that info quiet as long as possible, in the best interests of the town.

That depends on context and the player's role.

I'm really agreeing that this role is too overpowered to be in the game.

Or tomorrow I can pop out two names, and we know one is mafia. If both are clearly townies you have me. I don't see how it can be fake

Why do that if you can just kill the scum?

From what I'm reading, Gateway is ignoring A LOT of other people's questions as well as mine, and I really don't like it.
Halfway down Page 7, and right now I'm all for a Gateway lynch.

To Az - Tell you what, since I seem to keep missing your questions, address them in bullet form and I'll answer right back. And remember you called the mod a dick if they actually inserted a role like mine

Mine have been in bullet form.

well, in that case, i completely believe gateway!!! who knows was other very powerful role the bad guys have!

I hope you're joking.

Or I could report both names like I said, or if I kill a townie on accident the person I report would have to be scum.

Which pretty much guarantees a town win unless there's 4+ scum.

[molestargazer]

I would've thought he'd notice one of my posts out of three, especially when I bolded his name in the second one.
Here's hoping he responds this time round.

[molestargazer]

Bloody hell, 14 pages?
Fate has once against kicked me in the balls with keeping up - I'm just about to go for an interview. If I don't manage to catch up tonight, I will do tomorrow / over the weekend.

[molestargazer]

Right. Enough procrastinating, time to take a look at this thread. From my last post, P9 (post 208).

I like Spolium's thinking in Post 209. I think that allowing Gateway to live is simply too risky.

Which is exactly what I said about why i dont' think the role is so powerful. introduce a little wifom, and you cut back a role's power dramatically.

Had gateway not had to claim today, do you still think the role would not be all that powerful?

Not so much that I skim, but as I said I am still on meds (not strongly now) so I don't like to retype things I feel I have answered.

Off-topic, I hope you're OK - but since we don't know what the meds are, or how they might addle you, it doesn't count as a defence in my eyes. I understand you may have answered that repeatedly, however I would have liked you to at least quoted it and directed me to where you had answered it.

I, for one, expect weird roles in a theme game...

However, this game could be no more 'theme' than having a flavour.

- Still no 100% on who the scum is, only a 50% chance.

No. You claim you are 100% sure that ONE of them is scum. One dies, the over is 100% scum. The scum dies, the other is 100% town.

- we let gateway live.
- tonight he uses his ability and chooses to kill someone
- if the someone he kills is town we lynch him tomorrow after he gives us the other name, if he then turns up town we lynch the other name the next day
- if the someone he kills is scum we let him live again, and repeat the process

a) if he is town the mafia will most likely kill him anyway, and if he doesn't get killed then we have a ridiculously overpowered role with us and will win the game shortly.
b) if he is scum the only way he gets to survive is if he gives us a scum per night, which is a damn good deal for us townies.
c) if he is scum and doesn't want to give up his scumbuddies then he will die shortly and we will have lynched a scum on day 2 which isn't bad.

Introduce WIFOM after he's killed a scumbuddy or two, and he could still get away with it. I don't like this. Partly because of Post 209.

ThAdmiral's plan relies on Gateway actually killing, which I think he will dodge and say that he didn't find either scummy

This is also a good point.

Then Panzer claims I said I couldn't be night killed; that came out of eastbumblefek, nowhere.

You have mentioned this a few times and it seems to have been ignored.
Could you please QUOTE and give the POST NUMBER of where Panzer has lied, state the lie, and explain why it is so. If it's true, I'll certainly pay it heed.

Frankness, no need to cover up with false humility, townish. References to personal life, with light hearted behaviour, townish. Assumptions about my intent, scummish.

Interesting. Do you really believe that people answering questions or making statements about RL is due to their role, or just their real-life character/personality?

As for Molestargzaer and Archon. I stated in a previous post on day one nothing can be seen as proof. I am townie and I've seen people twist my words so they could just be falling for that effect or misreading. Only Panzer has clearly lied about something I know 100%

Wishy-washy. Take a look at our posts. Do you think one of us is more likey to be scum than another? Why?

Bloody hell, I'm only onto page 11 now.
I'm going to take a quick break. If I don't post more tonight, I will do at some point tomorrow.

[molestargazer]

Oh, bollocks. I was nearly finished with a post then all power went to my PC. Here we go again.

Immediately I wondered how Gateway had let Panzer live - but then I thought if he was faking it, he probably would have chosen someone who wasn't catching him so much flak. That's all about WIFOMy though.

OH and sorry Panzer, you live across from Spoil and I needed a spot he wouldn't see me from when I shot him looking at his painting.

- Is this true?
- If so, how do you know it?

I am voting Az as well.
1.) I said before I felt a lot of aggression from Az the moment my role was claimed.
2.) D2, I prove what I said, Az wants to keep throwing suspicion instead of helping find who else is scum.

1) You got aggression from Panzer too, but you had a change of heart about him. Could you not have a similar reread and take a look?
2) Surely throwing suspicion helps us find scum?

(so sorry, Gateway)

?

Supposing there are 4 mafia

4 mafia? I would've thought 3. We'd need a few decent powerroles to balance that out.
How did you come to the assumption of 4?

Day 3, 3 mafia, 6/7 townies.
Gateway "accidentally" chooses the wrong person to kill/ Dosen't kill anyone. Releases other name/both names. Townies lynch self.

Day 4, 3 mafia, 4/5 townies.
Townie lynched, one of the two names gateway realesed. Townies prepare to lynch other person. Mafia kill townie.

If gateway gave us an incorrect name D3 and a townie died N2, would we not then put Gateway on the chopping block D4? We're not stupid.

Actually that is a valid point... anyone care to share why we didn't have a night kill?

He seems to think you're scum. And he raises a valid point.
Do you have any reason why mafia wouldn't kill?

I'm sorry gateway, but the evidence that I posted is way too compelling for me.

Vote, Gateway

Why did you not do that immediately?

Unfortunately, time has beaten me again. I'll try and get on later and post my thoughts about the No-Lynch idea.

[molestargazer]

Verbosity - I'm currently unsure about Gateway / Archon. Once my questions are answered I'll (hopefully) have a clearer picture.

GATEWAY - Just so you don't miss them, these are the questions to you from my previous post. If you don't understand, read the quote they come with in Post 411. I'd like you to

quote these questions and specifically answer them.

- Is this true?
- If so, how do you know it?

1) You got aggression from Panzer too, but you had a change of heart about him. Could you not have a similar reread and take a look?
2) Surely throwing suspicion helps us find scum?

He seems to think you're scum. And he raises a valid point.
Do you have any reason why mafia wouldn't kill?

[molestargazer]

Alright. If you can't get it, just answer the others you don't need said approval for.

[molestargazer]

Fine. Let's give this a shot.

Vote: No Lynch

[molestargazer]

I would be willing to give Gateway one more night, but no matter what he does or who he kills, we lynch him tomorrow.

This'll prevent him from being scum and simply ratting out all his teammates and riding out the rest of the game.
When we lynch him tomorrow, if he turns up scum, great.
If he turns up as the pro-town role, we can confirm the role of everyone involved in his night actions - which will definitely help us narrow it down to find the last scum or two.

I don't understand how we are at lylo?

[molestargazer]

Vote: Gateway

If your claim is true, you might want to tell us who the other name was.

[molestargazer]

Wait, what?
Haha, I didn't see that.

[molestargazer]

In which case... we have one scum left.
Now I should kinda reread.

See what happens when I work for ONE day?

[molestargazer]

I'm still unsure whether or not Gateway could death millerise his targets.

Hm.

Where did you get the impression that he might be able to?
Death Miller is a terrible role. As far as I know, Battousai isn't a bastard-mod.

[molestargazer]

MafiaSSK is my second choice, because he's a lurker, and I enjoy to policy lynch them as a matter of course.

You really think we should be lynching lurkers at this stage of the game?

Now, I really did miss things out regarding yesterday's lynch and something to do with Jazz - so let's reread from P19.

Now this is interesting.

Alright that's two..I have a theory. Let's lynch Gateway. Vote:Gateway

I'd only be ok with giving him one more night.

Why the change?

2
7
5
6
7
4
5

(for future reference)

Now, I noticed there was a claim from you on P20 before I read this (Halfway through P19). With that claim in mind, what does this mean? Really?

Anyone that intends to go against this plan should explain the reasoning for such action.

That's the one point I don't like about your playstyle, just as happened D1. People not agreeing doesn't make them a target for suspicion.

Anyways, my thought on the day is that Gateway=SK Death Millerizer. Vote GAteway

Oh, please.

Unvote; Vote: Gateway. Panzer after.

This is fair enough after what happened, but really, a bit of reasoning would've been nice.

I suck at alts.

..?

plus if I die the mafia gets their own killer.

This appears to have happened, making Gateway some kind of Scumkill-Enabler.

He was pretty damn scummy and he could have been falseclaiming the new info.

Even when it did fit in with Jazzmyn's claim?

I think we should treat today as if it is lylo, just in case there are still 3 mafia.

There's 2 mafia dead, why would there still be 3 left alive?

Vote: MafiaSSK

I don't like your Gateway vote yesterday.

FoS: Lord Gurgi

for the same reason.

MOD: I don't see Verbosity's vote for Gateway yesterday. He was voting Panzer on P20. Is this a mistake in the Vote count? Indeed this would explain Jazzmyn saying Gateway would be at L-1 when she voted.

[molestargazer]

EBWOP: Whoops, I've left in a question for Jazzmyn despite the fact that she's dead. Ignore that bit.

[molestargazer]

Shows how much attention I pay.

[molestargazer]

Wha-? I'm here.

[molestargazer]

(Incidentally, I still haven't got the prod)

I've been here, and I've been waiting for MafiaSSK to post.
His increasing lack of doing so is only confirming my vote right now.

Any mistakes I may have made, in the sekinj lynch, far exceed in benefit to the town your actions. That is, none, except the first enunciation of the plan which frankly would have been reached without you anyway.

You're all three to be honest.

You say that like you think you aren't. Get over yourself.

Can you stop throwing mud at each other long enough to think about today?

FoS: ThAdmiral, Verbosity

[molestargazer]

I apologise that I'm not keeping up with this game. I have been sick for more than a month now. I am going regularly to the hospital, and I'm starting to get scared at the diseases that are being talked of. I'll try to keep it up.

For now, I'm willing to follow molestargazer and clean the water before I start looking through it.

Unvote; Vote: Verbosity

.

That sucks. Really sorry to hear about that, hope you get better soon!

On a side note - I'm not voting for you, my vote's on MafiaSSK right now. That just a mistake?

[molestargazer]

Very interesting game. The mechanics seem very interesting, it's almost a shame it didn't play out further - would've been very mysterious!

Either way, good game town!