Open 123 - Vengeful Mafia - Game Over! before 752

[Artem]

/confirm

[Artem]

I don't think L-1 is all that dangerous, especially this early in the game.

I'm going to spread the love.

Vote: Slicey

[Artem]

When someone's at L-1, one of the scum can hammer and get vigged (they'd be an obvious target), making a 2-1 endgame, if they think that works well for them.

I'm not sure scum would actually want to do that, but it's something to keep in mind.

1 vote is not dangerous at all; however, because then it would require both scum to hop on that wagon, which would mean an insta-town-win.

To win, we have to do two things correctly:

1. Lynch or viggie one mafia on Day 1;
2. Lynch the second mafia on Day 2;

If we mess up on either of these we lose. If the mafia wants to give us a freebie on step 1, by all means, but I don't see how they could think it "works well for them". L-1 is not dangerous.

[Artem]

Well i just felt it was a dangerous spot to be in, because i normally don't pay attention to votecounts in the RVS, and just vote whoever i feel like it when i look at the player list. So if any one else plays the way i do, popular may have been lynched in the first couple post.

This would have been a valid argument if you checked the votecount first then voted. Voting, then going "oops, didn't mean that. I could have lynched them" doesn't really stand up to that logic. If you're concerned with somebody popular getting lynched on accident, you shouldn't be using your hindsight.

The only difference, if we lynch the goon today, then we have 2 more lynches left in the game. If we lynch the godfather, then we will have insta-winned. Lynching scum > Vigging scum.

Though for scum, this probably still isn't ideal, because they can't win anymore by town vigging town.

(Yes, I find this setup interesting)

Sure, if the goon wants to sacrifice themselves to save the GF, then they may consider moving the game to day 2. But, we're talking about a situation when a townie is sitting at L-1 for no serious reason and the scum has the choice to hammer. Why would they hammer if the GF is not even being considered by the town?

Day 1: Each townie has 50% chance of nailing scum (2 out of the other 4 players) and 25% chance nailing the GF.

Now, assume the goon hammers a townie that was sitting at L-1 for no good reason and the townie shoots the goon.

Day 2: Each townie has 50% chance of nailing scum (1 out of the other 2 players) and 50% chance nailing the GF.

The mafia chances didn't exactly improve and the town has to make 1 correct decision to win, instead of 2.

Okay. I can buy this.
Unvote.
Crazy, Artem and Slicey, what do you think of my vote?

I think the vote was justified. Town should be paying attention to the votecount and not using their hindsight.

[Artem]

All that said, I don't mind keeping afatchic pressured at the moment.

Unvote; Vote: afatchic

(L-2)

[Artem]

Okay, fair point. I'm not arguing that it's in the scum's best interests to quick-hammer, just saying that it's not entirely out of the question.

*nods* It's a fun setup.

[Artem]

Crazy, Artem and Slicey, what are the exact reasons for your agreement with my vote?

I think the vote was justified. Town should be paying attention to the votecount and not using their hindsight.

Tajo, you keep asking questions about your vote. I'm waiting for the punch line.

[Artem]

@Tajo:

Fairly experienced. My stats are on my wiki.

I scumhunt by using my vote to pressure players that I believe are dropping scum-tells, ask them questions and analyze reactions.

That said, if you continue to ask questions without analyzing the answers, I'm going to call you out on trying to appear useful.

[Artem]

@afatchic: Got any comments on this?

Well i just felt it was a dangerous spot to be in, because i normally don't pay attention to votecounts in the RVS, and just vote whoever i feel like it when i look at the player list. So if any one else plays the way i do, popular may have been lynched in the first couple post.

This would have been a valid argument if you checked the votecount first then voted. Voting, then going "oops, didn't mean that. I could have lynched them" doesn't really stand up to that logic. If you're concerned with somebody popular getting lynched on accident, you shouldn't be using your hindsight.

[Artem]

What I'm getting at is that you seem concerned that somebody "may get lynched in the first couple of posts", however you only seem concerned in hindsight because you don't pay attention to the votecount.

If you are worried about somebody getting quick-lynched, why are you not paying attention to the votecount when you vote?

And if you don't care about the votecount, then why did you unvote immediately after placing somebody at L-1?

[Artem]

Artem do you really think your vote on afatchic is justified?

I scumhunt by using my vote to pressure players that I believe are dropping scum-tells, ask them questions and analyze reactions.

Yes, I think my vote was justified. Having thought about his defense, I'm going

Unvote

for now.

Tajo, what was the reason of asking all those questions? What conclusions did you arrive at from the answers besides Crazy and me being harder to analyze?

What is notable, though, is that Artem commented on afatchic's vote but didn't vote him until Tajo brought it up.

Huh? My comment was in post 26, my vote was in post 27.

Both you and Tajo are throwing around phrases like "It's interesting that... " or "It's notable...." coupled with facts that are not really interesting or notable. Are you trying to build suspicion on me from thin air or are you just making conversation since we don't have much at the moment?

[Artem]

But I didn't vote him because he put somebody at L-1. I voted him because he's concerned with accidentally quicklynching somebody but didn't pay attention to the votecount. Both facts have been revealed in post 19.

[Artem]

Umm, I am curious why you unvoted, though. What in particular did afatchic say that made you change your mind about him?

Because there was nothing particularly scummy about his response, and because you and Tajo became more interesting with your "It's worthy to note...". It's almost like you're hinting at something I've done being suspicious, without explicitly stating that it is. The fact that you haven't said why something is interesting or noteworthy worries me.

It also bugs me that Slicey doesn't post. In my experience, lurkers tend be the godfather.

Unvote; Vote: Silcey

to get him participating.

[Artem]

You don't unvote someone because their response wasn't scummy, only if it made you understand his point of view and now you can see how he could have made that vote. If his opinion hasn't changed, and he hasn't clarified anything for you, I don't understand why you unvoted him.

That's not how I play. The reason I vote and ask questions is to get a better read on a player from their responses. It was pretty obvious how afatchic could be not paying attention to the votecount and be concerned with a quicklynch at the same time. So no, his response didn't clarify anything for me that wasn't clear already. I wanted to see

how

he would answer my questions. His responses are coming off as slightly frustrated with my inability to understand his point of view. I'm reading that as town.

As for Slicey, a prod would probably be more effective than a vote. Rarely do people ever not post for 6 days on purpose.

You'd be surprised. Until a mod officially states that Slicey is to be replaced, my vote stays.

[Artem]

So you never found afatchic suspicious at all from the start?

Of course I was. That's why I pressured him.

A. I understand that a townie may be concerned about a quicklynch but pays no attention to the votecount.
B. Player X is concerned about a quicklynch but pays no attention to the votecount.

(A & B) does not imply that Player X is a townie.

[Artem]

Unvote

[Artem]

afatchic, why the parked vote from the RVS?

fix't

But the second part still stands about scum having to be on a wagon if we mislynch.

Yes, scum has to be on the wagon, but we don't know if it's 1 scum or 2 scum.
If there's one scum on the wagon, then: there's 1/3 chance of hitting scum by shooting somebody on the wagon, and 100% chance of hitting scum by shooting somebody off the wagon.
If there're two scum on the wagon, then: there's 2/3 chance of hitting scum by shooting somebody on the wagon, and 0% chance of hitting scum by shooting somebody off the wagon.

Average it out, you still get 50-50 for hitting scum regardless of where you shoot.

This game is not as simple. Say a townie is being scummy on purpose. The other two townies will hop on his wagon pretty quickly, so all scum has to do is contribute one of their two votes. In that case, the townie that was scummy on purpose should shoot the player who stayed off the wagon.

[Artem]

@Crazy: The original thing gave him scummy points. His response to my questions gave him townie points, that at the time I felt outweighed the original scumminess.

@afatchic: Can you explain why you're asking me and Tajo about not voting, while you're keeping your vote parked on Crazy from the RVS? Is a parked random vote any different than a no-vote?

[Artem]

@afatchic:

I disagree with your view on Crazy and Tajo. Crazy has been consistently pressuring me, which reads slightly town to me. Tajo asked a whole bunch of questions and then never bothered to say anything about the responses he got. That's not scum-hunting, that's trying to appear useful without actually being so.

I also don't understand your supposed "pressure" vote on Crazy. You never asked Crazy any questions, never pointed out any scummy things in his play (other than, "he's not scum-hunting", which is wrong). How is he, or any of us for that matter, supposed to understand the meaning of your vote?

Your "I'm going to shoot player X if I'm lynched right now" is highly unhelpful either. If you really are town, you could easily lose us the game if player X is town also and you don't have a cool enough head to evaluate the players voting for you.

Based on the events since my last post, I'm inclined to think Tajo is the GF and afatchic is the goon.

Vote: tajo

(L-1)

Crazy, if your vote is still random, you may want to reconsider it.

[Artem]

EBWOP:

Your "I'm going to shoot player X if I'm lynched right now" is highly unhelpful either. If you really are town, you could easily lose us the game if player X is town also and you don't have a cool enough head to evaluate the players voting for you.

This is assuming you get 3 votes and get lynched. (In case the assumption is not obvious.)

If anything, you should be able to recognize the difference between my suspicions here, as town, and my suspicions there, as scum.

How is he supposed to know that you're town?

[Artem]

@Crazy: I agree with afatchic being the scummiest player, but I want to turn every stone before a lynch. At the moment, Tajo is the least active player. In my experience, laying low is a GF-tell. (Yes, I see the V/LA until the 20th in his sig, but he needs to either post or request a replacement.)

[Artem]

Also, I'm not ready to lynch Tajo yet. If you're not comfortable with him being at L-1, feel free to remove your random vote from him, but I really doubt afatchic or Juls will hammer at this point.

[Artem]

@Crazy: I agree with afatchic being the scummiest player, but I want to turn every stone before a lynch. At the moment, Tajo is the least active player. In my experience, laying low is a GF-tell. (Yes, I see the V/LA until the 20th in his sig, but he needs to either post or request a replacement.)

Woah, but you didn't say that, did you? You voted Tajo after you laid out a case against afatchic!

Oh, for crying out loud:

It also bugs me that Slicey doesn't post. In my experience, lurkers tend be the godfather.

[Artem]

I didn't say I voted him because he was a lurker. I said I suspect him and afatchic as the scum pair with Tajo being the GF (I suspect Tajo being the GF because of the lurking). Wouldn't you agree that it makes sense to vote for somebody you suspect is the GF, because if you're right, it's an insta-win?

I feel like I'm being told to "show your work" in a math class. :/

[Artem]

Alright, sorry for not being clear. Hope it's all cleared up now.

[Artem]

Heh, I'm actually torn between Crazy and afatchic as the other scum (Tajo being the first). I was considering posting this:

I don't understand you, Crazy. You obviously suspect me and afatchic as partners. You don't vote either of us. Instead, you're keeping your (still random as far as I can tell) vote on Tajo, who is now at L-1 and who you're in no support of lynching (because, you say, afatchic may have been buddying up to a townie). Instead, you're casting this sideways suspicion on me. Pressuring me if fine, but I keep getting a weird vibe from you.

...but I wasn't sure if I wanted Crazy to know that I suspect him before Tajo posted (because if Tajo and Crazy are both scum, Crazy is parking an L-1 non-justified vote on his partner, which is a dangerous thing to do, so Tajo's reactions would have been good to see). So I saved this into my notes instead. Crazy's behavior just doesn't match up with his "suspicions".

The thing about afatchic is I'm not sure if he's just a poor town player or a scum. So, I'm debating between Tajo/afatchic and Tajo/Crazy. I really don't think afatchic and Crazy are scum together.

So, I guess it's out on the table now. Really need to hear from Tajo (or whoever replaces him if we lost him).

[Artem]

...and since there's no night phase, I might as well say that I'm getting a town read on you, Juls.

[Artem]

But it's not clear, that's the problem. Take this, for example:

Casting suspicion is sorta the point of the game. By "notable" I mean it's somewhat suspicious, but not enough for a vote, okay?

Has that changed? With every post that you make against me, I have no perception of how suspicious you are. You go back and forth between poking at me and saying that you understand my view.

If you are town, I can tell that you suspect me and afatchic as the scum-pair, because of my vote/unvote and a case on him but vote on somebody else. I can see why a townie would find that scummy. The problem is that you take a little stab at afatchic and then zero in on me. Shouldn't a townie be pressuring both suspects? Heck, shouldn't a townie be pressuring everybody to an extent?

What you are doing would be considered a town-tell in a normal game on Day 1: pick a scummy person and keep pressuring them until they cardflip. I even play like that as town. But in vengeful, it just doesn't fly because it's closer to an end-game scenario of a normal game. In that sense, I think you're making a scum slip by trying to appear townie like you would in a normal game.

[Artem]

If Tajo or Artem hammers, then they're obvscum, so I don't have a problem with that.

You're leaving one important detail out of the equation. afatchic could be scum.

Okay so lets all pretend i get hammered, and i'm a vig. who would you want me to vig?

That's actually not a bad question to ask as everybody makes it out to be, because it lets you test the waters of who suspects who. However, you should take all the answers, analyze them and the game, and make your own decision.

Like Juls, I suspect you, Tajo and Crazy. So, if you flip town, my vote is to vig Tajo or Crazy.

A few more things:

-------------------------

Also, I really doubt anybody is going to hammer Tajo right now:

-Juls has just stated that she wants to wait until Tajo checks in before a hammer.

-Afatchic thinks that Tajo is the most pro-town person around.

The bolded part could not have been part of the original reasons behind leaving the vote, because Juls hasn't stated her desire to give ample warning until

after

you OKd your vote on Tajo.

In fact, this is your original statement:

But now... I bet it would help us more than them if they quicklynched (assuming Tajo is town, of course).

Why do you need to assume that Tajo is town for this statement? If somebody hammered and Tajo flipped scum, that too would help "us" more than "them". (Assuming "us" is town and "them" is scum.)

---------------

4)I said i would kill the person who hammered without a reason, if i'm genuinely scummy and someone hammers, that's fine. There would be nothing anti-town about that. However right now your twisting of my words and crap like that seems more anti town then anything. And i don't consider that a threat, but more like a promise, or early warning. Right now if i die, Juls dies with me.

This kind of an obsession with the vigilante power reads sincere to me. (however, still anti-town) Which is why I'm inclined to think afatchic is just a poor town player, rather than scum.

---------------------------

My post 95 (linked to, instead of quoted, because it's big):

The first three paragraph are questions/points of disagreement with afatchic. Crazy classified it as a "case against afatchic". But it wasn't as much of a case as pressure statements. The vote, the actual vote, was based off this reason:

Based on the events since my last post, I'm inclined to think Tajo is the GF and afatchic is the goon.

...and was placed on who I suspected to be the GF.

----

Welcome back, Tajo. Really need to hear from you.

[Artem]

2a)I was having a bad feeling about Artem at the beginning of the game but I really think he is trying to help. Since when lurkiness indicated GF status? Why do you think juls is town?

-In the games I've played/read, a GF player was always lurking and/or acting snobbish. Could be just the sample bias, but I doubt it.
-Regarding Juls, the deciding factor for me is her comments about Crazy. I was getting a weird vibe from Crazy, but wasn't saying anything because I didn't want Crazy to know that I suspect him. When Juls said that Crazy's arguments have been far-reaching, that 1) confirmed the weird vibe I was getting from Crazy and 2) told me that Juls sees the game in a similar way, likely because she has the same alignment as me. In addition, her scum-hunting arguments don't give me eyebrow raises, unlike some of the others.

Artem and Crazy could you specify your position against or pro afatchic?

My position has changed a few times:
-My initial problem with afatchic is in post 26;
-afatchic's responses that gave me a townie vibe are in 43 and 46;
-My view of afatchic as an anti-town player are in 95;
-My current view of afatchic as a poor town player are in 127;
(Also, 129 is either scum bluff or a townie getting ready to be lynched and shoot somebody);

Also, in the same post you both:
-Suspect Crazy/me of following Juls on her case;
-Accuse Juls of exaggerating a case against afatchic based on the early L-1 arguments, and the hypocritical "why the no vote" question (among others), which were not originally Juls's.

So, which one is it? A lot of players suspected afatchic at the beginning of the game (and rightly so). You seem to be grasping at straws to try and pin "your case is stolen/exaggerated/based on poor arguments" argument on somebody.

And just so we have all the suspicions in the same place:
Artem: suspects Tajo with afatchic/Crazy as partner;
Juls: suspects afatchic with Crazy/Tajo as partner;
Tajo: suspects Juls with Artem/Crazy as partner;
Crazy: suspects afatchic/Artem as the scum-pair;
afatchic: suspects Crazy (with Juls as partner?)

I need to think if there's a systematic way we can go about clearing suspicions.

[Artem]

Actually, to make it easier, can everybody say who they would like to see lynched and if that person flips town, who they would like to see vigged. In other words, which two people do you want to see cardflipped the most?

For me, Tajo lynched if Tajo flips town, Crazy vigged.

[Artem]

Artem, can you explain why do you think Im scum?

I'm doubting myself a lot with your recent play. However, here are a few flags:
-You asked questions and never analyzed the responses. It's a pet peeve of mine when players start to "poll" everybody because they want "to get the conversation going". Such players only appear to be helpful, but in reality generate no really useful content;
-The vague "It's interesting.." or "It's noteworthy" that you never pursue;
-Laying low at the beginning, then coming out with guns blazing after your V/LA, as if you're trying to appease the town (the mod?) and make up for not posting much.
-You're accusing Crazy of not leaving much possibility for afatchic being town, yet you're doing exactly the same thing with Juls.

Most of these are very minor scum (anti-town?) tells, but I'm just not comfortable with the overall picture that I'm getting.

Also, are you waiting for everybody to answer my question, before you come up with the best answer that suits you?

[Artem]

Post 155.

[Artem]

Also, if somebody is playing poorly (being an "easy target"), how do you differentiate between scum and town that are building a case on him/her?

If Juls's case is an overexaggeration, then afatchic is not guilty of the things she's accusing him of. And if he's not guilty of those things, is he still an easy target? And if so, what kind of a case is not an overexaggeration?

[Artem]

Town cases dont need to be exagerated. A good example of this is your case against me but again, I should consider that you are way experienced than Juls and know this already.

I think this is a scum slip.

How do you know I'm town? You were suspecting me as Juls's partner not two posts ago.

You were mocking my points against you. Now all of a sudden, my case is a good example of a townie non-exaggerated case.

Also, this:

I want Juls lynched and to vig either Crazy or Artem. Im still pondering things to decide the scumpair.

is wishy-washy. I think you're trying to distance yourself from your buddy Crazy, but leave enough room to not commit to wanting to vig him. (Not that vigging would be up to you, if Juls got lynched and flipped town.)

[Artem]

Please, read my post better. This isnt a scum slip first because Im not scum. Second I used your case against me as an example of a non-exageratted post that needed clarification from my part. I explained it, you didnt ask more explanations, so I assume its all good. Yours, although wrong in some aspects, it a good post coming from a reasonable perspective.

The problem is that I got no sense of my perspective being reasonable from your responses. You more or less explained how every point I made against you is ridiculous that there's no room for doubt of me being wrong.

I didn't ask for any more explanations because as I said earlier those are very minor scum tells, but I'm getting a scum vibe from the entire collection. Call it an itemized gut feeling if you will.

You are experienced and you prob know this already. You know that scum to win shouldnt act as scum, scum should act as town. Your queries feel protown, Im not sure about you.
I think you are more prob town than Juls but you also can be scum with her. I mean, look, the possibilities arent much and considering all the possibilities again is what we should be doing now.

I don't buy the "I don't know how to read experienced players" card. This is not your first game here either. I'm sure that not everybody you've played with in the past was a newbie. You want to appear as if you've nailed afatchic and Juls, but having troubles with me and Crazy, because we're somehow more experienced. Just an FYI, afatchic played more games than me. I'm yet to complete my first ten games.

Besides, newb-scum also understand the concept of "scum to win shouldnt act as scum, scum should act as town."

Artem, just curious, what posts from Juls feel protown?

This one:

I understood what you meant, Artem. And I agree with you for the most part on tajo being a lurker/GF type. I am, however, torn between Crazy and tajo as the other scum. Crazy is reaching a bit with his arguments on you and tajo is lurking. I am not willing to hammer right now. And I will give ample warning before I even consider it. I really want to hear from tajo at this point. I think afatchic is V/LA too?

I just really can't see a mafia making it. I've been very careful not to drop any hints that I suspect Crazy. Why would a mafia come out and start accusing my accuser, when it's not even clear what my stance on them is? It doesn't make sense from a buddying perspective, but it does make sense from a scum-hunting perspective, because Crazy's arguments

have

been far-reaching.

In turn, will you tell me why you suspect Crazy? Since I think that you two are buddies, I'd like to see you spend sometime describing your thoughts about him.

[Artem]

You more or less explained how every point I made against you is ridiculous that there's no room for doubt of me being wrong.

Sorry, I should clarify. You made it look like my points against you are ridiculous and obviously wrong and now you're saying that I had a reasonable perspective.

[Artem]

Could you point me to them?

I think that Crazy was over-pushy in two situations:
-My unvote for afatchic. Even though I've explained over and over that I unvoted because I got a townie read from his responses;
-His idea that I built a case on afatchic but voted Tajo instead, even though the real reason for the vote came from:

Based on the events since my last post, I'm inclined to think Tajo is the GF and afatchic is the goon.

Why should I vote for who I think is the goon rather than who I think is the GF?

[Artem]

And my bet is still on Tajo and Crazy.

[Artem]

And my bet is still on Tajo and Crazy.

After rebutting all your queries and not having an answer back do you still think that Im scum, even more, the GF?

Yep, my bet is still on you and Crazy and between the two of you I feel that you're more likely the GF than Crazy.

I still think Crazy is trying to appear townie like he would in a non-vengeful game.

And I still think that you tearing apart my point against you and then calling my case a good example of a townie case is inconsistent. I know Crazy will jump all over me with this: but you didn't get any townie points for your responses.

After afatchic checks in and posts an update on his thoughts, I say we decide on somebody to lynch. I think that everybody has posted enough thoughts to know who's suspicious of who, that if we mislynch the vigilante should be able to make a good choice.

[Artem]

I'm V/LA this week. I'll try to catch up on the game tonight.

[Artem]

Where are you getting this ideas from? I DONT think you are playing poorly. Playing poorly would generate a lynch regardless of alignment, example: afatchic suspected by 3 people. You are not playing poorly.

This is giving me a funny feeling because it's coming from a guy who is unsure how to read me or Crazy because we are experienced (and therefore don't play poorly). Yet, here you are saying that Juls is not playing poorly, but you definitely feel like you've nailed scum.

Tajo, would you mind giving a detailed description of what you think of me and Crazy? Thus far, you've only been giving two-sentence blurbs about anybody who is not Juls or afatchic.

But I AM scumhunting too. I usually play that way and you and Crazy have an idea how I play as town. If I think someone is town (even worse, if I peg him as town playing poorly) then its very probable that there is scum in the attacks. Doesnt this make sense to you?

Really? You think there's scum among the

other

three players in the game that are suspecting afatchic? No offense but "No !@#$". (from a townie point of view)

I still don't understand why you think Juls's attacks have less merit than mine or Crazy's. You'll notice that the other two players suspecting afatchic (me and Crazy) think her case is fine.

Umm, yeah. Trying to appear like scum usually doesn't help you regardless of alignment. (And yes, finding scum is a higher priority, of course, but who says you can't do both?

If one is trying to appear townie, I'd say that they go about it a certain way in a normal game, and a different way in a vengeful game.

And Juls is right, finding town is just as important as finding scum. You want a good read on everybody, so you don't accidentally viggie another townie if you are lynched.

@Crazy: I'm having a hard time understanding your distancing/strong connection argument.

Also, Crazy, if you were to be lynched right this second, who would you viggie?

[Artem]

I am really tired of trying to convince someone I think is scum of my beliefs. It's futile.

Agreed. With all these walls of text, not a lot changes for me, except that after reading the detective work on afatchic, I'm less convinced of him being a townie.

I think we should make a move for a lynch. Can everybody post their updated suspicions and who they would viggie if they got lynched?

I still suspect Tajo with afatchic/Crazy. I will viggie Tajo if lynched.

[Artem]

Juls: Do you still think afatchic is more likely the GF, because of tajo's attitude towards him?

[Artem]

I clarified why I think you/Artem could be a scumteam a little later... probably not as much as I would have liked... but certainly you can see that you both seem to agree on everything.

Because in Vengeful, it's just as important to be town-hunting as it is scum-hunting and I feel that I found one of the other townies.

By the way, a question for Tajo, Empking and Crazy: what do you think of me and Juls as a pair? Are we scum together, townies together, or of the opposite alignment?

(I think Crazy views us as a scum pair, not sure about the other two.)

[Artem]

Everyone; Is their a player that the town agrees are very likely town?

Don't think so. Everybody has some suspicion from somebody.

Everybody does suspect Crazy in some shape or form, though.

Pop: Pop seems to be going a way that at first glance only makes sense if he's town (from my point of view), that bit of WIFOM doesn't take away the scummy thing he's done.

What are the scummy things he's done?

[Artem]

Sorry, I think Juls and Artem are both town.

Pop with his lurking and it looks like he was trying to buddy up to me.

Here's why I'm asking. One crazy strategy that requires a leap of faith is for the townie that views Juls and I as town to self-vote. Juls and I will then hammer the player and they use their viggie kill to shoot one of the scum. Juls and I then vote and lynch the second scum. Since the scum is not going to self-vote, that more or less identifies which of the {Crazy, Tajo, Empking} is the townie.

Of course, if you're town and view Juls and I as town, it leaves the other two players as scum. So, you might as well vote for the player we're voting.

So, Empking, why haven't you hammered Tajo yet, if you think I and Juls are town?

[Artem]

Ort: I don't think you're scum so oppisite alignments is most likely.

Sorry, I think Juls and Artem are both town.

As I still think that there's a good chance that Juls is scum.

So, which is it?

[Artem]

I think we should make a move for a lynch. Can everybody post their updated suspicions and who they would viggie if they got lynched?

I still suspect Tajo with afatchic/Crazy. I will viggie Tajo if lynched.

[Artem]

Tajo, who will you viggie?

[Artem]

Alright. I wanted to reference a game that is finally over:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10182

Read the first few pages. I, too, made an argument about somebody going after an "easy target". As a result, I drew a lot of flak, because there's no such thing as an easy target. Panzer (although scum) made a good point: what if somebody claims scum? Does that make them an easy target?

How do you distinguish an easy townie target and a scumbag?
How do you distinguish a scum-hunting townie and a mafia taking advantage of a scummy townie?

I think the answer is that you can't. Our job is to scum-hunt. That means that if somebody's being scummy, we call them out on it, vote them, etc. If it's a townie playing poorly, tough luck, they need to play better so that scum couldn't take advantage of them.

Normally, I'd say that you don't want to keep a scummy townie for the end-game. In a normal game, I always go after the scummiest player on D1 regardless of whether I'm town or mafia. However, vengeful is a lot like the end game except for a few important distinctions.

1. Mafia doesn't kill. That means that it's not dangerous to town-hunt. Stating what you think about every single player will not help mafia make a night kill.
2. A mislynch is not as bad as usual, because of the vigilante kill. It's also another important reason why you should scum-hunt AND town-hunt. You want to have the best possible read on every player if you are town, because if you're lynched it's up to you whether town wins or loses.

That said, if you (Tajo) really are town, you need to A) make up your mind about me and Crazy. Saying we're too experienced and hard to read is not cutting it. And B) Try to come out of your tunnel vision on Juls. As I said before, you can't really distinguish a mafia taking advantage of a poor townie and a townie scum-hunting.

Here's one very simple reason why I think Juls is town: she's done more scumhunting than the three of you (tajo, afatchic and Crazy) combined. I like her posts 198 and 230. I too originally thought that afatchic was a townie player playing poorly, but those posts really make me wonder and lean to afatchic/Crazy pairing. Which would make you (Tajo) town and which is why I'm making this post now.

[Artem]

Unvote

until Tajo responds.

[Artem]

@Tajo: I didn't make the "easy target" argument because I was town. I could have easily done it as scum. So it certainly doesn't make you town. It's not, however, a reason to suspect you either. It's just that your entire case against Juls is based on her going after the easy target and I'm pointing out the flaws in the logic.

Also, I don't have a problem with Juls mimicking my vote, because as she explained, you (arbitrary you) and the person you suspect is town want to be on the same page. Besides, she's voting Empking on her own.

@Empking:

Crazy: What else could I have accused you of?

Why do you feel the need to accuse him of anything at all?

@Crazy:
You said that my vote/unvote on Slicey could be seen as distancing. I think the same argument can be made for afatchic's vote on you. As far as I can tell, he never really explained his vote on you other than:

Well, first process of elimination. I know i'm town, and populartajo seems pro-town. Not sure about the rest. out of them Crazy seems the scummiest IMO. He hasn't contributed much in any type of scum hunting, and has just laid out baseless opinions in all of his posts until his most recent ones questioning Artem about the unvote on me. He seems to be hesitant with his vote, which i never view as pro-town. I think votes should be put out there, to either pressure or push for a lynch. Having it on anyone is better then not voting, IMO, as it at least places some pressure on someone.

[Artem]

So you decided that he's scum and now trying to come up with things to accuse him of? Seems a little backwards to me.

[Artem]

Crazy, you say you aren't ready for a lynch yet. What do you still need to make up your mind?

[Artem]

@Tajo: You haven't been asking much of anything new.

B) Im not tunneled. Im giving you reasons. Wouldnt you call Juls tunelled on afatchic and in me then?

Juls has suspected all three of you at one point or another, and voted for more than one player. That's not exactly tunnel-visioning.

Why cant scum pretend they are scumhunting, specially when the player has big probs of being town playing poorly?

Here's the way I see it. If you and I are both town, then one of us is wrong and either Juls or Empking (afatchic) are scum. Now, to me it seems backwards to lynch a player who's been scum-hunting rather than the player who's been scummy, solely based on the speculation that the former is going after an "easy target". If Juls is scum, she deserves to win. Otherwise, we are punishing scum-hutning and promoting poor, scummy play.

We can also lynch Crazy since everybody is suspecting him in some shape or form.

You are accusing me of being tunneled against Juls but you dont say a word about her. Even worse, he is calling you town and following you for NO REASON at all, when she could be very scum buddying up to you. We all love being called obv town but why hasnt that possibility crossed your mind, Artem?

Also, I don't have a problem with Juls mimicking my vote, because as she explained, you (arbitrary you) and the person you suspect is town want to be on the same page. Besides, she's voting Empking on her own.

@Crazy: I voted for Slicey instead of asking for a prod is because some mods are particular about it being their job to keep track of who needs prodding and when.

This game is losing me. Not much has changed about my opinion of the players and I doubt there will be anything drastic enough happening in the remainder of Day 1. I'm fine with a lynch of Empking, Crazy and, to a lesser extent, Tajo. So, as soon as Crazy decides he's ready for a lynch, I say we go ahead and move on.

[Artem]

EBWOP: The second to last quote is from Tajo.

[Artem]

Artem, you said you'd be fine with a lynch of either me or Empking. Well, he was pushing hard against me anyway, so even if he's town, I'm dead. Either way, you get your wish. Smile (Kidding though, I really wish he wouldn't vig me if he turned up town, since I do know that would be a loss.)

Or you could be trying to save your hind, because Tajo put you at L-1 yesterday.

[Artem]

*holds breath*

Vote: Crazy

[Artem]

*sigh*

You two asking those questions means we didn't just lynch the godfather.

[Artem]

Does the thread remain open if Crazy gets a vengeful kill?

Also, only scum can ask this question, because of the townie role PM.

[Artem]

@Empking: Then read your PM. The answer to your question is pretty obvious if you're town.

[Artem]

Yes, my usual problem is that if I feel that I got a strong town read on somebody, I'm reluctant to let go of it. I didn't know the scum were allowed to day-talk, so when Juls said that Crazy was far-reaching with his arguments, I was sold, because there's no freaking way two scum can stage that with no communication. (And if they could, they deserve the win.)

Towards the end of the game, I began to suspect Juls, but (as with Crazy) didn't say anything, mostly because I wanted to see her opinion of other players. When I saw her willing to lynch Tajo and Empking, but have a defensive semi-townie read on Crazy, it gave me a bad vibe.

Crazy just made the most sense as a lynch, because, like I said earlier, everybody was suspecting him in some shape or form. And it was actually Juls's comment about far-reaching arguments that made me realize that I'm not going crazy. So I never really stopped suspecting Crazy.

Never really got a good townie vibe on Tajo or Empking/afatchic. Tajo was overly defensive. afatchic was... well, scummy.

Good game, all.

[Artem]

P.S. I think I'm better at appearing townie than I am at scum-hunting.

[Artem]

P.S. I think I'm better at appearing townie than I am at scum-hunting.

You would be a scary scum.

The problem is that I don't enjoy playing scum nearly as much as town. Even though I play to win, I'm pro-town at heart.

[Artem]

Probably Empking, but honestly, it's very hard to say.

[Artem]

Depends on the timing and the reasons provided. That's why it's very hard to say. It's all situational.