Mini 757 - South Park Mafia (Game Over)

[caf19]

/confirm!

[caf19]

Vote: dejkha

You were scum in the last game I played with you, so you must be scum in this one too

[caf19]

Vote: Zaz

- Fishing

Was that really fishing? A Timmy post restriction isn't exactly subtle, and I don't see what's wrong with asking about it. Fell free to enlighten me though.

For the record, we also appear to have a Mr. Mackie post restriction in the game. Naturally, such post restrictions have no bearing on the players' likelihood of being town or scum, but we should note them for information purposes anyway.

[caf19]

Vote: Zaz

- Fishing

Was that really fishing? A Timmy post restriction isn't exactly subtle, and I don't see what's wrong with asking about it.

Fell

free to enlighten me though.

For the record, we also appear to have a Mr. Mackie post restriction in the game. Naturally, such post restrictions have no bearing on the players' likelihood of being town or scum, but we should note them for information purposes anyway.

EBWOP: feel*

[caf19]

I don't see how character claims will help the town at this point. The mod will surely not have made it obvious who's scum just through role names. It'll probably give the anti-town players more info than the town.

[caf19]

dej, I won't support you on this one... you clearly wanted us to at least consider a name claim. That's not unbelievably scummy in itself, so why deny it so vehemently now? The suggestion that you claim, when all you've had is a few votes on page 3, also strikes an odd note. Why the jumpiness?

[caf19]

dej, your characterisation of your opinion on nameclaiming is inconsistent. In 67,

Why would I say anything solid about something when I'm unsure of it? No really, I'd like to know.

implying pretty strongly that you weren't sure about whether to NC or not. But in 91:

No, it doesn't seem very neutral, but when I used the butt sex example, I didn't put it in that same situation. I merely said if I said out of nowhere "I don't like butt sex", which apparently means, to everyone else, that I support it.

which, if we strip away the colourful metaphor, implies that you were saying you were against nameclaiming but everyone interpreted it the opposite way. You can't have been both unsure, and against it... I don't understand why you have overreacted and changed your story. To me, the initial infraction (wanting to consider a nameclaim) was not so huge, but your subsequent reactions have been progressively worse.

Anyway, the ubiquity of the backlash against dej leads me to conclude that we should at least consider other avenues at this point in time. My vote will remain on dej for the time being, as it seems like a natural place to be, but let's think about a couple of other things:

@ Spolium: Jeez, the game's only been going for three or four days. It's not the time to be going after people for quietness yet - not everyone has to keep up with your frenetic rate of posting. Why did you go after RBT, and not fuzzylightning or GhostWriter who both have only one non-confirm post, or even Empking or me who have similar post rates/lengths to Riceballtail? (incidentally, fuzzy and Ghost, speak up if you're around...)

@ Empking: have you considered the possibility that RBT is PRed but isn't allowed to openly admit it? I think he's made it fairly clear from his posts that he does have one. (naturally, this has no bearing on his alignment, but I don't think it's likely that he is faking it).

[caf19]

@ Riceball: facepalm, nobody asked you to fullclaim. Your last post is somewhat OMGUSy too. Why such a violent reaction?

It also makes much sense to call some players already lurkers...
But Spolium apparently did this as well (according to Caf), may I ask where as I apparently missed it.

Spolium did it in post 90. He informs me, however, that his beef is with active lurkers, not lurkers per se.

Spolium, considering the above, what do you think of Empking?

[caf19]

Spolium, considering the above, what do you think of Empking?

Considering the above...? Empking's post in 137? Zaz's quote/your response in 138?

If you're referring to his fairly low post count, I'd say it isn't a huge concern at the moment because his contributions have been content related and relevant, if a little brief (though this is probably preferable to the brainfucking wallposts I've been dishing out). I would expect to see more from him as the game progresses.

One thing that concerns me is his role in the dejkha case. His initial response was that he noted dej's post 38 as "scummy behaviour" (somewhat nonthreatening) then he followed up with a vote based on dej's wishy-washiness, but he hasn't actually pressed dej for an explanation of either of those. I'd like to know why.

To clarify: I had become concerned with Empking's contribution, which appeared to consist of quietly pushing along the dejkha wagon, while staying 'in the shadows', as it were, and attracting little attention to himself. His most recent post, in my opinion, yet again embodies this: he is implying that non-dej voters should have to explain themselves, and therefore that voting dej is a more correct position to be in. This exemplifies what I see as his highly laconic and 'business-like' approach to the game: getting votes on, geting wagons moving, with minimal consideration or exploration of options. As you had expressed a willingness to go after active lurkers, I wondered if you had got a similar impression. Interesting to see your thoughts.

@ nicolio: you haven't elaborated much on your suspicions either. Is dej your top suspect, or someone else?

[caf19]

2) I didn't like people pressuring me for a claim when mine is potentially subtle. However, one as obvious as "TIMMEH" every other line is kinda hard to not notice... mkay?

Asking you whether or not you have a PR is not the same as asking you to claim.

Actually, I wouldn't mind a dej lynch at this point...

vote: dej

Hrm. This is the same sort of minimal elaboration that I was bringing Empking up for previously. Going from not expressing much of an opinion, to not just voting, but saying a 'lynch at this point' is acceptable? Ok, so eight or nine days until deadline isn't that long, but there's no need to get ahead of ourselves. That is somewhat reminiscent of scum trying to push a wagon along. Your explanation is that "He hasn't really tried to explain himself..." - so if he does explain himself, will you still advocate a lynch?

Unvote

. dej has been scummy, but so have some of those on his wagon. I don't want to help the wagon to reach critical mass while I'm still not totally decided.

@

Mod

: prod fuzzylightning please?

[caf19]

Just to chip in on the 'buddying up to caf' issue, I immediately saw the initial comment as this:

Because I've played with him before and he was useful and logical player, so I figured if anyone would understand, it would be him.

which is what dej explained it as. Not that I'm trying to big myself up as being amazing and logical or anything, but I ICed a newbie game that had him in, and tried to fulfil my IC role of being helpful/objective, etc. So I assumed that's what dej was referring to. That doesn't form a part of my suspicions of dej. I, however, was not compelled by his 'praise' of me to show more sympathy towards his position (as my posting at the time showed).

Anyway...

I personally didn't notice that part either, but it doesn't change the fact that you brought it up, for essentially no point. Especially this point in the game.

^Doesn't that also seem like something she would think from reading "the post" the first time, rather than waiting until someone else found the question scummy? If she thought "the post" was as scummy as she made it look, she would not have waited until someone else brought it up.

This is intriguing, because I had a similar opinion - but on nico, who in my opinion is worse for doing this. In post 78, when the argument over "the post" had been going for some time, she says

What has really stuck out to me is dej's apparent liking of char claims.

Dej, what makes you think it's not a big deal?

which is a point that had been made many times in the thread - not only made, but built upon, with other arguments developing around it (what your intentions were in the first sentence of "the post", what your reactions to the suspicion of you signified etc). This very basic point seems to be committing the crime of following others' suspicions, in a more obvious and in my opinion suspicious way than nonny did. Nonny developed her own ideas on you subsequently; nico is yet to substantially do this. What do you think of that?

@ GhostWriter: despite dej being your top suspect, you haven't voted for him at any point. Why not? Fair enough, he was at L-2 some of the time, but not all the time.

@ EsoMonty and Rest: please come back? (

mod

, is it time for prods on these two yet?)

---

Here is everyone's post count so far, not including confirms.

dejkha - 48
Spolium - 45
nonny - 30
Empking - 11
nicoliosgotpolio - 11
caf19 - 9
ZaZier - 7
GhostWriter - 6
RestFermata - 6
Riceballtail - 6
EsoMonty - 5
fuzzylightning - 1

This leads me to worry... the dej/Spolium/nonny battle dominates the thread. Some of the less frequent posters have contributed their opinions properly, but others seem happy to sit back and watch a dej lynch succeed solely through its own inertia. We have a week (ish) to deadline, and need to hear from everyone, not just a few. It is also not particularly healthy if 100% of our discussion involves or is about dejkha, so I suggest everyone posts a scumlist of the top 3 or so players.

[caf19]

caf19 - Who on the dejkha wagon do you think looks least scummy, and why?

I can't quite work out your motivation for asking that question, but... I'd say nonny looks pretty town to me. She expounds her suspicions thoroughly without descending into 'nitpicking' territory.

Duly noted. However, do you think it was reasonable of dejkha to expect others to make that connection?

Not particularly, but was he really doing that?

I hate scumlists(not as much as townlists but stilll) and refuse to do it at this point.

Hmm, I feel the same way about townlists, but scumlists I always thought were fine. Still, if people don't want to do it then I can hardly force them. You weren't one of the people who I found to be worryingly uncommunicative anyway...

Yes, he was my top suspect, something I implied, though didn't actually say. He was, however, not to the point where I felt the need to vote him, or to even add the pressure of my vote. I'm not a person who likes to throw votes around a lot, excluding random votes, which I love and find hilarious. I also wanted him, more than anything, to explain himself, because I'd recently had a game where a town player died for similar reasons, and it weighed in my choices.

Fair enough. So, now that dej has started to explain and/or expand on suspicions more, what do you think of him now?

She seemed frustrated that she had to use the word and I highly doubt scum would take the chance at fakeclaiming (I don't think Mr. Mackey could even be bad, but it could happen) when the real character could be out there. I believe that she's more likely a vanilla townie than scum, but that doesn't excuse her from future suspicion, especially since she seems to be lurking for the most part.

Given how obvious her PR was, I'd imagine she wanted to let scum know that she's just a vanilla townie, which seems reasonable for Mackey (even though it could be a lie).

Eh, a lot of this is just speculating into an abyss of possibilities. charter could have made any sat of characters into scum or town, and it's fairly fruitless to try and work it out, especially on Day 1. Wouldn't it be better to assess RBT on whether or not her behaviour is suspicious, rather than setup speculation relating to her?

---

Eso's 224 has a scummy feel to me.

Sorry. I haven't posted. I see nothing in the thread to sway me in any direction.

Really, nothing at all? I find that unlikely.

I wonder why RBT felt the need to full claim when asking about a post restriction.

I wonder why fuzzylightening hasn't posted at all.
...
In fact, I have been wondering if the dej thing is a false positive.

Instead of broadly wondering about stuff, which allows you to post without actually expressing an opinion one way or the other, could you actually express some thoughts on who you think is scummy? Thx.

vote: fuzzylightning

until he is replaced or posts.

Attacking lurkers at this advanced stage of the day? Don't you have anywhere better to put your vote? In my opinion it is quite likely that fuzzy had flaked, and should be dealt with by replacement, not votes. Since you can't pressure someone who doesn't read the thread, voting him is going to achieve precisely zilch.

On fuzzy: If he posts or we get a replacement the vote will leave. But, I have been in three games on this site where inactive people have ruined the game. I had been waiting a response from fuzzy and others about the dej situation and felt compelled to vote for one of them. I specifically choose fuzzy because he had the least amount of posts.

Lack of posts does not correlate with likelihood of being scum. Both town and scum lurk/flake. Don't you think it would be better to vote for the person you think is most likely to be scum?

[caf19]

Hmm... my first thoughts are that scum has little to gain from claiming what dej did. This is because it guarantees his death pretty soon: if he is scum, then either we don't believe him and lynch him today, or we do believe him, and then lynch him when tomorrow comes around and he's still alive. That's not a great position for scum to be in, as they value their survival over anything else. I am mildly worried that the potential Wifom of this argument might weaken it (what does everyone else think?), but

However, the worst scenario we can enter now is not if dej is scum and we believe him, but if he is town and gets roleblocked tonight. That way, townies will die tonight, then when dej is still alive tomorrow we will swiftly lynch him, and send the game into night where more townies will die. That puts us into day 3 with (probably) at least 3 townies down and hardly any more discussion than we have now.

Given that it is fairly likely that scum have a roleblocker, that scenario is not entirely unthinkable. I have an idea to combat it, one that is largely based on speculation, but I can't think of anything better: we let dej survive to night, but if there is a vidge (or any other townie with an NK) they should kill dej tonight. If they do that, it's beneficial in all 3 scenarios: if he's scum, you kill scum. If he's town and gets roleblocked, then you're killing someone who we would just be lynching in the day anyway, thus saving us a day/night cycle. If he's town and doesn't get roleblocked, your kill won't go through so it doesn't matter who you targeted.

The problem with that plan is that I don't know if there is a vidge in the game, and don't particularly want to go on a rolefishing mission to find out whether we have one. Either way, I'd like to lynch someone other than dej today (NL isn't optimal).

Vote: nico

I wouldn't be surprised if nico flipped scum. I appreciate that you said you needed some time in order to post more, and I will retract my vote if said post comes and is very believable. However, you have to appreciate that it's only 5 or 6 days to deadline so I can't hang around waiting for you.

Btw, thanks for replacing, DDP.

[caf19]

I am mildly worried that the potential Wifom of this argument might weaken it (what does everyone else think?), but

EBWOP: I forgot to finish this sentence. It should read: "...but I'll go with it for now."

[caf19]

Only thing to add on a quick skim....caf why so sure there will be multiple nk's? Or it appears you are speaking in definites on the matter.

I'm not sure... is this because I said 'townies will die'? That didn't mean anything. I was just being a tad hyperbolic, I guess.

Incidentally, we should definitely note this from the mod:

If there is no majority at deadline, there is no lynch.

We have to get 7 people voting someone in the next 89 and a bit (I think that's the right number) hours. RBT: the wagon on you is fast approaching critical mass, so you need to post a proper defence

now

. I'm not totally convinced you are scum, but if it gets to, say, 48 hours to go and you still haven't defended yourself then I won't be able to advocate switching the wagon to someone else, as that will most likely result in No Lynch.

[caf19]

Before the day ends, we need to get opinions on RBT from GhostWriter, nicolio and Rest. Also waiting on that vote from nonny that she said she would place.

[caf19]

Yeah, looks like L-1 to me. GhostWriter and Rest still need to check in. If one of them wants to hammer then they should go ahead when they're ready; RBT is probably about fourth in my scumlist so I'd prefer not to be the one who hammers.

[caf19]

I just used the 'display posts from previous' box at the bottom, which provides a handy count. it didn't take very long.

[caf19]

Don't know why RBT didn't claim, it might have saved her.

If you must see me die, let me die tonight, mkay? We can confirm empking as scum that way.

In retrospect this is obviously her hinting at her role, although at that point that was never going to work as she was too likely to be lynched. Oh well.

Anyway, most people legitimately brought up suspicions against dej/RBT's suspect behaviour, but nicolio's behaviour needs to be examined. Post 293 is very scummy, in my opinion.

I really didn't like that she claimed, and I just get a bad feeling about this :

At the rate of this town's actions, I think scum will win, so you should shape up, mkay?

Like, I believe her claim but I just don't think it was necessary. If she wasn't Mr. Mackey, whoever is would have said so. I'm not going to vote her, but if everybody else does I'm not going to push against it.

You believe her claim, but... don't let that stop everyone lynching her anyway? That isn't a pro-town way to play. Why were you happy to let her die even though you basically thought she was town?

[caf19]

If you must see me die, let me die tonight, mkay? We can confirm empking as scum that way.

In retrospect this is obviously her hinting at her role, although at that point that was never going to work as she was too likely to be lynched. Oh well.

I'm confused. How is this an obvious hint at her role?

That was her breadcrumb that she was planning to protect Empking, which she imagined would cause her to die from protecting scum. Then we'd go back and read that line, see that she died from protecting Empking, and lynch him. That's what I assume she meant, anyway.

[caf19]

Out of the 10 people still alive, only 5 have posted today. Wake up people!

[caf19]

What stood out was that caf totally ignored that she did indeed full claim. So what if it was a false claim. A false claim is still a claim.

Er, what I meant by that was 'I don't know why she didn't claim her role'. She obviously wanted to survive to night without anyone knowing she had a PR, so she could use it (and protect someone, or nail them as scum as she appeared to be planning to do) without getting NKed. However, as she had so much suspicion on her the natural play would have been to claim doctor, not keep pretending she wasn't one. I'm not ignoring the fact that she claimed vanilla. I even reacted to it yesterday (post 138).

I too have been finding it somewhat unlikely that DDD would miss RBT's vanilla claim when it was a central part of yesterday's events. However, I just reread DDD's 279, which says:

Barring that the logical explanation is your role will help you, but it seems you're exceedingly eager to make a role claim because you're only at L-3 which means there's plenty of time to move suspicion off you the old fashioned way without compromising the secrecy that usually is to the advantage of a power role.

Which does kinda imply that he hadn't read the vanilla role claim as he was anticipating a power role claim from her.

I do agree that his reasoning for voting RBT yesterday was pretty thin. DDD, I want to know who you suspect today and why.

[caf19]

Sigh, nicolio needs to post, I really want her to answer the points leveled against her.

I'm also growing increasingly wary of GhostWriter. He has contributed very lightly, and when he does post it's usually in the form of popping in to lend support to whatever is the biggest wagon at the time.

[caf19]

I'm still here. As I said, I think nico looks scummy at the start of today. I'm waiting for her to respond, though...

@ Spolium, your switch to Nico was somewhat abrupt - is the vote for pressure, or what?

[caf19]

Yeah, multiple modkills obviously have the effect of nuking today's discussion. Please come back, people >.<

[caf19]

Well, we "found" scum. Pity we didn't kill him via lynch as then we could analyse who was eager/reluctant to get on his wagon, etc. Still, here are Eso's significant interactions. There is a lot of speculation involved in this because Eso didn't actually say very much, but here it is anyway:

God help the town if Spolium is Mafia.

We could probably Wifom ourselves to death on this comment. Meh.

224: vote on fuzzylightning (now DDD) for lurking. Obviously this is either buddy distancing or trying to get an 'easy target' townie pressured.

247: unvotes and votes RBT, the eventual mislynch. Then mostly lurks.

Day 2, all he really does is a crappy attack on me for saying RBT didn't claim. He also says he's not going to jump on Spolium for the mod's alleged indication that he is scum. I'd say that is the strongest indicator of buddy behaviour we've seen from Eso - trying to quell a potential attack on Spolium when it's still in its early stages.

So Eso's actions could potentially indicate DDD or Spolium as a buddy. Problem is, there are several players whom he just ignored totally, and they could be his buddy likely as not. More analysis needed obv.


incidentally, DDD's only mention of Eso is calling him scummy in 349. But in his next post he chooses to vote nicolio over Eso. DDD: what made nico more scummy than Eso?

---

Welcome to the game, Wall-E!

The next damning thing is how Spolium asked someone who they felt was most town on dej's wagon. What. The. Flipping. Banana.

Nobody even batted an eye! Even the person being asked was like, "Well, I don't see the need, but OK!"

Er... oops? Is this really super-scummy? I did think it was slightly strange at the time, but it did come as part of a large post where Spolium asked questions of

everyone

. It seemed to be more a part of Spolium's frenetic attempts to increase discussion rather than a scum's attempt to determine an NK. Do you disagree?

[caf19]

I don't care for how you've phrased that, makes it seem like I willfully disregarded him which isn't the case.

I'm not sure I follow you. As far as I can see, everything I said is true - you did express suspicion of Eso and nicolio, and then went on to vote nicolio. Given that in 349 you ended with identical conclusions on both of them ("more likely to be scum than town at this juncture"), I think it was fair to ask what tipped the balance towards nicolio. Your explanation doesn't really account for much because it's largely based on your subjective opinion at the time which can't really be confirmed, but perhaps I couldn't realistically have expected anything more. Still, it means I have to consider you as a potential Eso-buddy.

@caf19 - analysis on Ghostwriter, plz

Not particularly happy with his play. Never really branched out from suspecting the obvious people (dej then RBT) yesterday. Seems to contribute lightly but at the same time prods others to contribute more (366). We need to hear more from him on who he's suspicious of today.

I have also been started to think that Eso's refraining from suspecting Spolium for his confirmed PR is probably a null tell. This is because making comments on setup, outguess-the-mod etc., especially such vacuous ones as "I am honestly not sure I am following your logic", are an easy way to seem like you are protown without actually contributing. That's probably the most likely explanation for it, not Eso and Spolium being buddies. So, I'm not a big fan of the Spolium suspicion. I'd say GhostWriter and DDD now form my top two, although on rereading RestFermata I don't think he should be given a free pass either. He's been a consistent fan of the big wagons (dej yesterday, DDD today, absent through the RBT lynch) and needs to contribute more, obv.

[caf19]

I don't care for how you've phrased that, makes it seem like I willfully disregarded him which isn't the case.

I'm not sure I follow you... Still, it means I have to consider you as a potential Eso-buddy.

Maybe I overquoted what I was really objecting to. The phrase that bothered me was, "DDD's only mention of Eso..." Which makes it appear as if I was willfully ignoring Eso other than that single point, when the you could sub in at least three or four other players into the quote and it'd still be accurate. I'm having trouble phrasing this last part, but basically making such a post is attempting to link me to Eso by ignoring or forgetting the context of the situation. The situation being that I'm a later replacement in the game and have few links with any player.

I see. Well, you are indeed a replacement, but that doesn't really weaken my point. You'd found time to express thoughts on RBT, Empking and Rest before that post, so it's clear that you didn't find Eso incredibly noteworthy prior to then. Also, that bit wasn't the most important part of the argument (the most important part being that you voted for nico over Eso, obv).

[caf19]

1) If I was right, then you'd have committed a minor slip, but I would be more likely to be scum than town for trying to nail you on a minor point.

Only true given knowledge of your alignment. Furthermore, I wasn't hounding you or voting for you based on this slip, just exploring a possible contradiction. So your characterization of my behavior is incorrect in the first place, but that's all irrelevant because there's no possibility I was right since the contradiction I saw was based on me having incomplete information. Let's move onto the relevant point then...

Hm, I don't much like this point of your defence. You're saying that this part of Emp's argument should be discarded because he was saying 'even if you were right...' and you weren't right. However, the assumption that we should only engage this argument if there is a chance of you being right is fallacious, because Emp's point (as I see it) was that your original argument was a very minor/pedantic one to bring up,

whether you were right or wrong

, not solely if you were right. The point does apply whether or not you made that mistake because your intent to pressure Emp was there regardless - so I don't see why you felt the need to add the disclaimer of 'that's all irrelevant' to your post.

Incidentally, Emp, I don't know why you didn't mention that part of your reasoning earlier.

Even if you were right then the thing I did was very minor and would more likely come from scum than town

This seems like a better reason to pursue DDD for his attack, not the fact that he made an error. I think in this instance your tendency to be laconic and not to explain your reasons fully has the potential to hurt the town, as your suspicion of DDD has spurred on a sizeable wagon against him despite you not having fully expounded said suspicion.

[caf19]

Incidentally, Emp, I don't know why you didn't mention that part of your reasoning earlier.

Even if you were right then the thing I did was very minor and would more likely come from scum than town

This seems like a better reason to pursue DDD for his attack, not the fact that he made an error.

Seriously? You think I'm scum (or at least that it's a good argument) because I was exploring what I thought was a possible contradiction/pressuring a fellow player? I could see that argument having some validity if I had pushed for Empking's lynch or tried to railroad him in the process, but that's simply not the case here.

Please don't exaggerate my arguments or reduce them to one point. I've outlined previously why I consider you a scum candidate - your eagerness to get on the RBT wagon with scant reasoning, and potential buddy behaviour with Eso, form the main points. The action of yours that we're arguing on here could be a continuation of the first of those two - looking to build pressure on Emp using something as small as a bit of semantic pedantry - but it's not a central part of what makes me 'think you are scum' (and by the way there's a big gap between thinking you're scum and thinking someone else makes a decent argument, it's odd that you put the two together like that). The part of my post that you quoted was an address to Empking about how I thought that part of his post was better than the other part and why he didn't mention it before. I would have addressed it to you if it was a major part of my case. You claim that people are exaggerating your minor suspicion into a tunneling/lynch attempt, but you're bordering on doing the same to me here.

I don't like DDD's defences much. At the same time, though, it's 5 days to deadline and there are still several very quiet people in the game. I don't see much changing in the next five days, so I'm not entirely happy with just plodding towards a DDD lynch in the current timeframe. The chance that we have lurkerscum who are simply staying quiet and waiting for a mislynch to occur is still significant.

Mod: Any chance we could get a deadline extension?

[caf19]

DDD, as for my use of 'could' and speculation, isn't that what town play is all about? I don't

know

anything about your alignment - only the scum have such knowledge. What I can do is assess your likelihood of being scum through how closely your behaviour resembles a scum behavioural profile, and that's what I'm attempting to do. Just because I choose not to phrase my case in needlessly dichotomous "yes" and "no" terms doesn't make it useless.

As for my alleged hypocrisy, well you do have a point that I did a similar thing. It was crappy play from me I guess, although at the time I was being rushed by dej's claim and the impending deadline. I can't fully exonerate you, though, because that's not how the "you did it too" defence works.

There is the overarching fact, that I think I touched upon previously, that most people in the game interacted little or not at all with Eso - a fact that is in your favour in this case. That's why I'd like to explore avenues other than you before the day is out - but that's hard with only half the player base currently making regular posts.

I guess I could try to generate some discussion myself though...

@ GhostWriter, who do you think is most likely to be scum and why?

@ Spolium, you haven't weighed in on the DDD debate recently. How come? You previously had a stance on the issue and you haven't exactly been reluctant to put forth opinions so far in this game.

Mod

, prod Wall-E please?

[caf19]

The argument between the two of you is serving only to prove DDD's meta and give Spolium more opportunities to rack up obvtown points, imho.

Obvtown points? Last I remember, you were accusing Spolium. So... who do you suspect, and why?

[caf19]

how about that spolium? what do you guys think about his leadership in this game thus-far?

I'm not sure I agree that being the 'leader' of the discussion necessarily indicates scumminess. Yes, Spolium was the most vocal aggressor against dejkha, but dej did do some pretty scummy stuff - it wasn't uncalled for. What do you think about Spolium's change of character D2, when his first two votes (for DDD and nico) were following votes and had 'I agree with X' messages attached to them?

Also, if you do suspect him, why did you say he was picking up obvtown points?

[caf19]

Also, think about my name claim suggestion and add reasons why you want to have one or not. I'll explain later if needed why it's a good thing, but I rather don't want to explain it.

I don't see the benefits for town in it. The one scum character that has flipped so far was a member of the fourth grade; if we all nameclaim I doubt we would be able to tell the scum-fourthgraders apart from the town ones.

[caf19]

It's anti-town, for certain. As to whether it's scummy, that's case by case. Sometimes a lurker is just a lurker. Let's not get into a lurker policy argument unless we think it's pertinent, please.

This.

I am quite worried by Zazie's tendency to debunk her own points.

Did you actually take that part serious?

Yeah, use the difficult words on the Dutch girl

Then it's a misunderstanding. Hello, Dutch and blonde here.

It's like an easy way out - whenever someone comes up with a good counter argument against her, she just says that the point wasn't serious or was dumb and didn't mean anything, and she therefore can't be suspected for it. Why would you post these points in the first place if they were so silly or useless? I doubt that you would be posting these self-discreditations if nobody had countered the points to begin with.

May I just claim and give my reason for a mass claim?

Whoa, I missed this totally.

Zaz, if you think your claim will benefit the town and not put scum in a better position then by all means do so. Please try not to leave it until the last minute though, we can't afford to rush a decision with the deadline looming.

I've got info that Dejkha didn't use his night action, and that he was probably killed by the scum.
Should I claim it all, or would that give to much info to the scum?

Why would the scum have killed dej? If he survived the night, he would have been an obvious lynch. Not sure how believable this is, although maybe it's because I don't know the whole story.

Given that it's only five or six days to deadline, I think you should either claim what you want to claim now, or suspend discussion of it until tomorrow. We need a full lynching majority in this game and discussion is still fairly unfocused with that in mind.

Mod

, prod GhostWriter please?

[caf19]

Is our deadline still in effect?

[caf19]

@caf19

- What do you think of Zazier's response to your concerns about her? Has she lessened these concerns?

I can understand putting fun stuff in a game, yeah. I'm not sure why you'd throw it in a long post, surrounded by a lot of serious points... maybe we just see things differently. It does also set the worrying precedent that Zazie can just retrospectively label anything as a joke if she starts getting suspected for it. We'll see if that becomes a problem. So I'd say I do still have some concerns, although they have been lessened a bit.

@Wall-E

- Do you suspect anyone other than myself yet?

This is a strange question

[caf19]

@Wall-E

- Do you suspect anyone other than myself yet?

This is a strange question

What if you read it in the context of THIS POST?

Yes, I am familiar with the post... but I was reading it more in the context of Wall-E's later post where he lists suspicions of, then votes for, Zazie. It makes your question seem rather redundant, and I wonder about your motivations for asking it.

[caf19]

I?

well, guess I'll have to.

Lulz... thanks for replacing.

[caf19]

What do you think about it now, Empking?

[caf19]

charter's mod policy seems breakable in that any town can force someone to intentionally break their PR in order to get a modwarning and confirm it. Further than that, it's pretty much ModWifom in this case, because charter did confirm it and that could signify either alignment. Emp, is your case on Spolium now based on anything other than the fact that he suspects you for suspecting him? That doesn't seem like a very strong case on its own.

[caf19]

My opinion on Empking: I don't really buy his case on Spolium. A bit of mod confusion is not enough to indicate scum, imo. And he appears to be reaffirming his case through the fact that Spolium is arguing against it - well, he's obviously going to disagree, isn't he? Doesn't convince me.

I'm not sold on Empking being scum, but his style naturally resists analysis so I can hardly rule it out...

also, I'm rather worried that it's 4 days to deadline and the town doesn't have much direction regarding who to lynch. I myself am far from sure, and there are still probably 4 people I'd consider voting. And of those, I'd be reluctant to lynch mykonian seeing as it would be solely based on the actions of his predecessor (something he can't defend against). Better to spend more time getting a read on him.

So for me, it's between Emp, DDD and Zazie today.

DDD and Zazie - opinions on Empking vs. Spolium?

[caf19]

That's L-1.

[caf19]

Power roles don't know why they can perform their action, and making sweet-loving towards children?! How can anyone believe this claim?

In "The Return Of Chef" he's brainwashed to make love to children, so it's possible. If this is the flavour, however, I might expect him to be an evil character.

While I consider the claim, Empking who did you target last night?

This.

[caf19]

Can't confirm either way.

I'm having trouble seeing why Emp would have blocked me - during D2 when someone asked him what he thought of me, he said I seemed pro town.

[caf19]

So, assuming Empking is not an idiot, he blocked caf. And that means it is unlikely he is scum. (would scum block caf?)

Is there a reason in particular why scum wouldn't block me?

[caf19]

So, assuming Empking is not an idiot, he blocked caf. And that means it is unlikely he is scum. (would scum block caf?)

Is there a reason in particular why scum wouldn't block me?

Did you answer this, mykonian?

[caf19]

My opinion: I'm not convinced by Emp's claim in isolation. That he would have blocked me is somewhat unlikely, and his explanation (that I looked more town D2 than D1) is not backed up by his previous posts. When he was asked about his opinion of me, he didn't mention it all and just mentioned in a general sense that I looked town. There isn't really anything in his posts to make me believe him.

mykonian's opinion makes me pause for thought though, I hadn't really considered that. If dej was roleblocked as Zazie implies, however, it means that either

a) Emp is a town RB, and there is a separate scum RB who blocked Dej. (and then he got killed anyway)
b) Emp is lying scum.

While a) is possible, it seems a lot less likely than b). Emp is a good lynch today. He's probably better than Zazie as a lynch anyway - if Zazie is scum lying about her info, we can catch her in the lie tomorrow.

Vote Empking

L-1.

No need for Zazie to fullclaim for now.

[caf19]

I have more to say, but for now just one question: Zazie, earlier on you suggested a nameclaim and implied that there was some correlation between player names and alignment (middle of 456). What happened with that? You didn't mention it again or in your claim.

[caf19]

Mostly hypocrisy - In day one he made a point of the Dej/Spolium debate taking over the thread and allowing scum to lurk and posted everyone's vote count. Fast forward to the present, Spolium has tons more posts, ZazieR who binges and purges in posts has more posts than him, I only had four days of day one and I nearly have as many posts as him. He's active enough to avoid suspicion, but he's under-contributing.

Read my other games, I'm not the type of player who binge posts or dominates games. I'm not even the lowest contributor in this game. If you thought I was under-contributing before, why not call me on it before now?

Furthermore, many of his points particularly when he was working over me today were things he himself had done. He called out EsoMonty and then ignored him which he claimed was a scumtell, he was dubious as to why I would pursue nico over EsoMonty on day two when he himself had vote for nico earlier in the day.

"Many" = 1, seeing as those two are part of the same action. Anyway, why are you bringing this up now? Once you brought it up the first time, I haven't continued to push this issue at all. It's not like I'm getting you lynched on hypocritical logic or anything. So I don't see why this is a major factor in your case against me, as it basically boils down to the fact that I did the same thing you did.

Furthermore, caf's vote on Empking based around the two claims is absolutely built on an unsound foundation, he's also stacking lynches in it so that if Empking is lynched and is town then ZazieR is lying and can be lynched tomorrow.

I didn't categorically advocate a chainlynch, I said 'if Zazie is lying, we can catch her in the lie tomorrow'. This wasn't intended to be decided solely by the flip of Empking, but whatever, preview shows I went to L-1...

I'm Butters Stotch. If no-one votes me during the day, I get a bus driver power at night. There is a bit of flavour (I dress up as Professor Chaos) but it doesn't attempt to explain my night action.

[caf19]

Whoa, congrats DDD! I never even knew there was an SK. Darn.