Mini 754 - Frogs Mafia Game, Set and Match.

[Haterade]

1) That's the point, though haterade. In fact, I specifically said "this doesn't clear me." But you're the one MAKING THE ATTACK. If I prove that what you're attacking is a null tell, then I have disproved your attack. The burden of proof is on you to show why my actions are more likely to come from scum than from town. At the point where you say it's a null tell, you're admitting you just attacked me for nothing.

2) Same response. If your attack basically boils down to "Yes, what you did was good for the town because it took us out of the random voting stage and created discussion, BUT you could have done it as scum to look like a townie" then you don't have an attack. Otherwise you would attack every action that every townie ever took.

As to the non answering questions thing: Do you think I have been avoiding discussing and stating my own opinions this game? I think I have done the exact opposite. I think I have been probably the most vocal player, and have stated my opinions very clearly.

Heh, it's very possible that it was because I was drunk. Believe me, you'll know when I'm combative. That wasn't combative.

The main problem with your case is that it boils down to "Yes, town is more likely to these things, BUT SCUM CAN DO THEM TOO IN ORDER TO LOOK TOWN."

Which is basically non-sensical, because it would mandate you attack every player who ever did anything good for the town, JUST IN CASE.

Unvote

, this will do good for now


I still have my eye on you though, you're still fishy to me.

[Gorrad]

My current take on the Hatorade/TSQ situation is about 80% WIFOM that would detract from the game. I think Hatorade's town, he seems sincere enough. Jury's out on TSQ- this is where the WIFOM comes in.

[mikeburnfire]

Hey, I was gone this weekend. I didn't mention it in the thread because I didn't think anyone would really miss me.

Fairly neutral towards TSQ and dahill.

Why did you pick out these two people to mention specifically?

Because they are two people that I've played with, and have been fairly active.

I guess, after reading the thread, the only thing I can see that seems 'scummy' to me is post 79. Haterade's post was a bit nonsensical, but TSQ seemed to be really argumentative about it. The counter-vote-that-wasnt-a-counter-vote that followed is more suspicious. Again, yes, Haterade's post was a bit wonky, but can he really be blamed for picking random things to attack on Page 4? Afterall, TSQ was doing the same thing a few posts previous.

I really don't see much worth commenting on. CryWolf, upon closer inspections, seems to be talking without giving it much thought and gets tripped up in her own words and the semantics behind the words. Doesn't make her scum, though. This whole bickering contest between Haterate and TSQ, with kloud jumping up to help stir the pot is something I've just been skimming over. Doesn't really seem all too important for me.

[Raging Rabbit]

Back now, sorry for not posting yesterday.

Just checked on Crywolf, and she never used die roll before. I think a player is more likely to attempt that for the first time as scum (see, for example, Lovers Multiball), and her wish washy defense on how that started discussion is very unconvincing, I think it's pretty clear that wasn't her intent in advance. Happy with my vote.

Hateade strikes me as simply a way overraggressive player, his attack on TSQ is weak and I can see why people have issues with it, but don't think it's much of a tell either way.

[MacavityLock]

Fairly neutral towards TSQ and dahill.

Why did you pick out these two people to mention specifically?

Because they are two people that I've played with, and have been fairly active.

Really? dahill was fairly active when you said this? When you made this statement, dahill had made 2-3 substantial posts, and the most recent were very wishy-washy.

yeah i think TSQ's play being similar so far to his SK play is not much of a tell at all, as SKs have to scumhunt as well

she's [crywolf] not really scummy, but i would hardly clear her or anyone else as town at this point

It feels like commenting for the sake of activity to me.

When I saw MBF's comment, the "fairly neutral on TSQ and dahill" looks exactly like a "I should probably mention my scumbuddy/ies at some point" post. I know it's early to be talking about buddies, but that comment really set off my alarms. As I currently have a town read on TSQ, that would leave dahill.

dahill's iso post 7 is better, but it's still of the "meh, not much of an opinion so far" variety.

I'm going to

unvote, vote: dahill

for now, and drop a

FoS: MBF

.

[Citizen Karne]

Sounds like a classical case of an overly defensive beginner.

No such thing as overdefensive. Defending yourself is not a scum tell.

Yes there is. However, it is not a scumtell.

Then why bring it up? You sure as hell made it look like a scumtell by saying that then saying you were 70% sure he was scum.

That was more a precursor the 30% of me wanting to say he is town than the 70% wanting to say he is scum.

I am not 100% sold that he is scum yet (more like 70%), as beginner players seem to all act alike when they are cornered unfortunately. More analysis pending.

Seriously? You are 70% sure that Haterade is scum this early in the game?

Look at the way he has stuck with his case. Noobtown would have retreated by now in my opinion.

First off, haterade is not a noob. And I have seen both scum and town do exactly what Haterade is doing, sticking to a case that has been proven wrong. I've done it as town. And reading Haterade's post, I did not get any scummy vibes. Yes, he was wrong, but I feel Haterade genuinely believes what he is saying.[/quote]

At the beginning of a game, I am 50% sure a person is scum. The extra 20% is not as big of a gain as I think you are making it. The ad hominem on kmd and the way he is sticking with his attack even though it was pointed out to him fairly clearly by TSQ reads more for me as noobscum than noobtown. You have a different read and a valid opinion, which I understand. I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

[scotmany12]

Macavity, why the vote for Dahill?

I am not 100% sold that he is scum yet (more like 70%), as beginner players seem to all act alike when they are cornered unfortunately. More analysis pending.

Seriously? You are 70% sure that Haterade is scum this early in the game?

Look at the way he has stuck with his case. Noobtown would have retreated by now in my opinion.

First off, haterade is not a noob. And I have seen both scum and town do exactly what Haterade is doing, sticking to a case that has been proven wrong. I've done it as town. And reading Haterade's post, I did not get any scummy vibes. Yes, he was wrong, but I feel Haterade genuinely believes what he is saying.

At the beginning of a game, I am 50% sure a person is scum. The extra 20% is not as big of a gain as I think you are making it. The ad hominem on kmd and the way he is sticking with his attack even though it was pointed out to him fairly clearly by TSQ reads more for me as noobscum than noobtown. You have a different read and a valid opinion, which I understand. I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

You just ignored everything I said. You seemingly looked past the fact that I said Haterade is not a noob, and the fact that what Haterade is doing is done by both scum and town. As a matter of fact, I see town stick to a fallacious case rather than scum. I'm not even going to talk about the 50% and how ludicrous that is.

[MacavityLock]

Macavity, why the vote for Dahill?

Like I said, he seems to be adding not much to the game right now. Most of his comments have been about what he considers null-tells, which seems like a kind of active lurking.

At the beginning of a game, I am 50% sure a person is scum. The extra 20% is not as big of a gain as I think you are making it.

Karne, a priori players are approx 25% scum, given most setups. Just because there are two possibilities, that doesn't mean its 50/50.

[Citizen Karne]

Macavity, why the vote for Dahill?

I am not 100% sold that he is scum yet (more like 70%), as beginner players seem to all act alike when they are cornered unfortunately. More analysis pending.

Seriously? You are 70% sure that Haterade is scum this early in the game?

Look at the way he has stuck with his case. Noobtown would have retreated by now in my opinion.

First off, haterade is not a noob. And I have seen both scum and town do exactly what Haterade is doing, sticking to a case that has been proven wrong. I've done it as town. And reading Haterade's post, I did not get any scummy vibes. Yes, he was wrong, but I feel Haterade genuinely believes what he is saying.

At the beginning of a game, I am 50% sure a person is scum. The extra 20% is not as big of a gain as I think you are making it. The ad hominem on kmd and the way he is sticking with his attack even though it was pointed out to him fairly clearly by TSQ reads more for me as noobscum than noobtown. You have a different read and a valid opinion, which I understand. I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

You just ignored everything I said. You seemingly looked past the fact that I said Haterade is not a noob, and the fact that what Haterade is doing is done by both scum and town. As a matter of fact, I see town stick to a fallacious case rather than scum. I'm not even going to talk about the 50% and how ludicrous that is.

What a minute. Haterade isn't a noob? I'll admit, I misread your post and thought you said he was a noob. He was a townsperson at the start of this game, and is a goon now, which usually points to a noob in my book.

Also, I didn't look past what you said about the fact that what Haterade is doing is done by both scum and town. I specifically addressed that point when I said:

The ad hominem on kmd and the way he is sticking with his attack even though it was pointed out to him fairly clearly by TSQ reads more for me as noobscum than noobtown. You have a different read and a valid opinion, which I understand. I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

What part of that did you not understand?

Also, do you assume everyone is completely pro-town at the beginning of a game? I've always started with completely neutral reads on everyone.

[dahill1]

Like I said, he seems to be adding not much to the game right now. Most of his comments have been about what he considers null-tells, which seems like a kind of active lurking.

Including my stances on TSQ and Haterade? how about my comments towards Gorrad and kloud? You seem to be conveniently ignoring those posts

Fairly neutral towards TSQ and dahill.

Why did you pick out these two people to mention specifically?

Because they are two people that I've played with, and have been fairly active.

Really? dahill was fairly active when you said this? When you made this statement, dahill had made 2-3 substantial posts, and the most recent were very wishy-washy.

yeah i think TSQ's play being similar so far to his SK play is not much of a tell at all, as SKs have to scumhunt as well

she's [crywolf] not really scummy, but i would hardly clear her or anyone else as town at this point

It feels like commenting for the sake of activity to me.

i don't see how that first statement (about TSQ) is wishy washy. it was a pretty clear stance that his being an SK was a nulltell, which definitely differed from others' views at the time. the second one about crywolf was intended to be neutral. i didn't see her as scum, but definitely not "clearly town" as TSQ said.

When I saw MBF's comment, the "fairly neutral on TSQ and dahill" looks exactly like a "I should probably mention my scumbuddy/ies at some point" post. I know it's early to be talking about buddies, but that comment really set off my alarms. As I currently have a town read on TSQ, that would leave dahill.

This is the part that I don't understand at all. so MBF decides to mention his scumbuddies...but TSQ is town...meaning I'm scum? This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

[MacavityLock]

Including my stances on TSQ and Haterade?

As far as I can tell, your stances on TSQ and Haterade are of that same "nothing interesting to add" ilk.

how about my comments towards Gorrad and kloud?

kloud is the only other player I think you've made a definitive statement about. As for Gorrad, have you mentioned him yet?

i don't see how that first statement (about TSQ) is wishy washy. it was a pretty clear stance that his being an SK was a nulltell, which definitely differed from others' views at the time. the second one about crywolf was intended to be neutral. i didn't see her as scum, but definitely not "clearly town" as TSQ said.

"Wishy-washy" is the wrong phrase. What I mean is that from your set of posts, I can't tell at all what your suspicions are. Your comments thus far have seemed to say that nothing interesting has happened here yet, which is untrue and I think a scumtell.

When I saw MBF's comment, the "fairly neutral on TSQ and dahill" looks exactly like a "I should probably mention my scumbuddy/ies at some point" post. I know it's early to be talking about buddies, but that comment really set off my alarms. As I currently have a town read on TSQ, that would leave dahill.

This is the part that I don't understand at all. so MBF decides to mention his scumbuddies...but TSQ is town...meaning I'm scum? This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

As I was re-reading and forming these opinions about you, I saw the MBF comment. Having the suspicion of you, his post stuck out like a sore thumb. There were other people talking about the crywolf situation at the time, not just TSQ and dahill. So, him mentioning you there seemed unnecessary without some other motive. This is reinforcing evidence, not primary.

[dahill1]

Including my stances on TSQ and Haterade?

As far as I can tell, your stances on TSQ and Haterade are of that same "nothing interesting to add" ilk.

really? because i could've sworn i said i thought Haterade was town and was actually one of the first to do so, i think.
on Gorrad, i haven't mentioned his name specifically but i called him out on a hypocritical post.

What I mean is that from your set of posts, I can't tell at all what your suspicions are. Your comments thus far have seemed to say that nothing interesting has happened here yet, which is untrue and I think a scumtell.

first, please point out where i've said nothing interesting has happened. as for who my suspicions are right now, it's true i haven't really made a set list yet because i'm still forming my opinions. i don't see how that's scummy.

[MacavityLock]

first, please point out where i've said nothing interesting has happened. as for who my suspicions are right now, it's true i haven't really made a set list yet because i'm still forming my opinions. i don't see how that's scummy.

Of course you never say that explicitly. That's the general feeling I'm getting from your posts, things that you think are mostly null-tells or slight town-tells. You're not scumhunting.

[scotmany12]

Also, I didn't look past what you said about the fact that what Haterade is doing is done by both scum and town. I specifically addressed that point when I said:

The ad hominem on kmd and the way he is sticking with his attack even though it was pointed out to him fairly clearly by TSQ reads more for me as noobscum than noobtown. You have a different read and a valid opinion, which I understand. I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

What part of that did you not understand?

I understood it perfectly. You don't seem to understand that what Haterade has done is not scummy.

Also, do you assume everyone is completely pro-town at the beginning of a game? I've always started with completely neutral reads on everyone.

Statistically speaking, people are more likely to be town than scum. I view people as protown at the beginning unless their play looks otherwise. So you saying you already think someone is 50% scum at the beginning of the game is not neutral. You are saying that you are 50% sure someone is scum based off of absolutely nothing.

first, please point out where i've said nothing interesting has happened. as for who my suspicions are right now, it's true i haven't really made a set list yet because i'm still forming my opinions. i don't see how that's scummy.

Of course you never say that explicitly. That's the general feeling I'm getting from your posts, things that you think are mostly null-tells or slight town-tells. You're not scumhunting.

Saying things are null-tells or town-tells is attacking validity of an argument. People are attacking Haterade for something, Dahill thinks what he is doing is a nulltell, so he is attacking the validity of the case against haterade. That is part of scumhunting.

[dahill1]

Saying things are null-tells or town-tells is attacking validity of an argument. People are attacking Haterade for something, Dahill thinks what he is doing is a nulltell, so he is attacking the validity of the case against haterade. That is part of scumhunting.

beat me to it
exactly, would you (MacavityLock) prefer that i don't point out what i think are null/town tells? then you would just accuse me of lurking

[MacavityLock]

Saying things are null-tells or town-tells is attacking validity of an argument. People are attacking Haterade for something, Dahill thinks what he is doing is a nulltell, so he is attacking the validity of the case against haterade. That is part of scumhunting.

beat me to it
exactly, would you (MacavityLock) prefer that i don't point out what i think are null/town tells? then you would just accuse me of lurking

Fair points, but that's basically saying that you've found little to nothing suspicious so far, except for Gorrad's mild hypocrisy (which I disagree with by the way) and kloud's overuse of buzzwords. I still think my case is reasonable for page 6.

[dahill1]

Saying things are null-tells or town-tells is attacking validity of an argument. People are attacking Haterade for something, Dahill thinks what he is doing is a nulltell, so he is attacking the validity of the case against haterade. That is part of scumhunting.

beat me to it
exactly, would you (MacavityLock) prefer that i don't point out what i think are null/town tells? then you would just accuse me of lurking

Fair points, but that's basically saying that you've found little to nothing suspicious so far, except for Gorrad's mild hypocrisy (which I disagree with by the way) and kloud's overuse of buzzwords. I still think my case is reasonable for page 6.

and how is that scummy?
as i said i'm still compiling thoughts/rereading so their should be a vote soon. i don't really get why your tunneling in on me

[MacavityLock]

Fair points, but that's basically saying that you've found little to nothing suspicious so far, except for Gorrad's mild hypocrisy (which I disagree with by the way) and kloud's overuse of buzzwords. I still think my case is reasonable for page 6.

and how is that scummy?
as i said i'm still compiling thoughts/rereading so their should be a vote soon. i don't really get why your tunneling in on me

So, if I just kept popping in to say "I've found everything thus far to be null," you wouldn't find that suspicious? Also, the "tunneling" argument doesn't work on page 6. It's just too early.

[dahill1]

Fair points, but that's basically saying that you've found little to nothing suspicious so far, except for Gorrad's mild hypocrisy (which I disagree with by the way) and kloud's overuse of buzzwords. I still think my case is reasonable for page 6.

and how is that scummy?
as i said i'm still compiling thoughts/rereading so their should be a vote soon. i don't really get why your tunneling in on me

So, if I just kept popping in to say "I've found everything thus far to be null," you wouldn't find that suspicious? Also, the "tunneling" argument doesn't work on page 6. It's just too early.

of course i'm not going to be saying that the whole game. but as you said, it's page 6 there's still plently of time for me to find people scummy

[MacavityLock]

of course i'm not going to be saying that the whole game. but as you said, it's page 6 there's still plently of time for me to find people scummy

I don't disagree with that. Did I ever say that my vote was going to stay on you permanently?

[scotmany12]

Saying things are null-tells or town-tells is attacking validity of an argument. People are attacking Haterade for something, Dahill thinks what he is doing is a nulltell, so he is attacking the validity of the case against haterade. That is part of scumhunting.

beat me to it
exactly, would you (MacavityLock) prefer that i don't point out what i think are null/town tells? then you would just accuse me of lurking

Fair points, but that's basically saying that you've found little to nothing suspicious so far, except for Gorrad's mild hypocrisy (which I disagree with by the way) and kloud's overuse of buzzwords. I still think my case is reasonable for page 6.

Finding nothing suspicious on so far makes dahill scum? Would you rather him vote for someone for a bullshit reason?

[dahill1]

of course i'm not going to be saying that the whole game. but as you said, it's page 6 there's still plently of time for me to find people scummy

I don't disagree with that. Did I ever say that my vote was going to stay on you permanently?

then i don't see what this argument's about

[Citizen Karne]

Also, I didn't look past what you said about the fact that what Haterade is doing is done by both scum and town. I specifically addressed that point when I said:

The ad hominem on kmd and the way he is sticking with his attack even though it was pointed out to him fairly clearly by TSQ reads more for me as noobscum than noobtown. You have a different read and a valid opinion, which I understand. I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

What part of that did you not understand?

I understood it perfectly. You don't seem to understand that what Haterade has done is not scummy.

In your opinion

. I could easily be saying the exact same thing about you that you are saying about me yet I have accepted people have different opinions about what they think is scummy or not. If there was a definite set of rules about what makes someone scummy and what doesn't, then this game would be a lot shorter. But there isn't. Now, I know that common sense can help separate the scum from the town in certain situations, but I don't think this is one of them.

Also, do you assume everyone is completely pro-town at the beginning of a game? I've always started with completely neutral reads on everyone.

Statistically speaking, people are more likely to be town than scum. I view people as protown at the beginning unless their play looks otherwise. So you saying you already think someone is 50% scum at the beginning of the game is not neutral. You are saying that you are 50% sure someone is scum based off of absolutely nothing.[/quote]

I assume everyone is either scum or town. I don't think anyone is innocent until proven guilty, or guilty until proven innocent. I just let their posts speak for themselves. The 50% thing has nothing to do with the ratio of town to scum in a game. How could I know that unless I was the mod? Maybe if I phrase it like this: On a scale of 1 to 10, where 1 is confirmed town and 10 is confirmed scum, I start off everyone at a 5 (neutral). Some people, based on their posts, will go up on this ranking; others will go down. Does that make more sense? I can see how you may have gotten confused with the percentages.

[curiouskarmadog]

updating later this afternnon

[curiouskarmadog]

Unvote

random.

Caught up, couple notes I think are worthy (typing as reading).

I am not a big scot fan. Nothing personal, just don’t like his game play. I cant remember his alignment in those past games I have played with him (I think I have seen him as town and scum)..I think this is the first game I have seen him on the attack with reasoning I agree with. he makes really good points in post 105. 1st, there is no fucking thing as overly defense…and I would like to go a step further, CK, if you think Hate is “classicly” “over defensive”…my question is to you…So?

2nd, being “70%” sure of someone being scum in this game after 4-5 pages seems silly. I do think Hate is new…I do think Hate appears to be eager.

Sounds like a classical case of an overly defensive beginner.

No such thing as overdefensive. Defending yourself is not a scum tell.

Yes there is. However, it is not a scumtell.

OK, so why bring it up? (which scot asks right after)

I don’t like CK’s math in post 130. Initially, I didn’t have an issue with “70%”. I took it as he thought hate was scum or had a vibe that he might be scum. I thought it was sort of silly, but not scummy…NOW, that Scot calls him out on this, he is back tracking a tad stating

At the beginning of a game, I am 50% sure a person is scum. The extra 20% is not as big of a gain as I think you are making it.

and again, why mention it? How were we suppose to know you start at 50%? Your posts so far seem fluffy. I need a point of reference to know what 70% means from you. Right now, you have left yourself room to maneuver around if you have to. What is my % and why? TSQ’s? Scot’s? Cry’s…and why? How does lurking affect your %s?