Mini 754 - Frogs Mafia Game, Set and Match.

[mikeburnfire]

Settle down, TSQ. We have plenty of time to speedlynch scot.

vote: scotmany12

[mikeburnfire]

Yep. Word.

So, C. Wolf... what part of Michigan do you hail from? I'm from the West area myse

ADMIT IT I KNOW YOU ARE SCUM CONFESS NOW AND YOUR LYNCH WILL BE SWIFT AND PAINFUL

[mikeburnfire]

Kudos to TSQ for trying to start some real dialogue, but I feel as if he may be trying to frustrate players to make them look stupid.

I don't like how Rabbit picked up TSQ's demands and assisted in pushing them. TSQ is right to question him next.

Gorrad, I don't think TSQ is being ridiculous. He's probably been the most helpful so far. Unless there's some way for you to simply this scum hunt (like, you know, confesss?)

[mikeburnfire]

I dunno, I'm getting some bad vibes from CryWolf. Leaning more towards 'scum' than 'town' at this point. Fairly neutral towards TSQ and dahill.

unvote

[mikeburnfire]

Hey, I was gone this weekend. I didn't mention it in the thread because I didn't think anyone would really miss me.

Fairly neutral towards TSQ and dahill.

Why did you pick out these two people to mention specifically?

Because they are two people that I've played with, and have been fairly active.

I guess, after reading the thread, the only thing I can see that seems 'scummy' to me is post 79. Haterade's post was a bit nonsensical, but TSQ seemed to be really argumentative about it. The counter-vote-that-wasnt-a-counter-vote that followed is more suspicious. Again, yes, Haterade's post was a bit wonky, but can he really be blamed for picking random things to attack on Page 4? Afterall, TSQ was doing the same thing a few posts previous.

I really don't see much worth commenting on. CryWolf, upon closer inspections, seems to be talking without giving it much thought and gets tripped up in her own words and the semantics behind the words. Doesn't make her scum, though. This whole bickering contest between Haterate and TSQ, with kloud jumping up to help stir the pot is something I've just been skimming over. Doesn't really seem all too important for me.

[mikeburnfire]

When I saw MBF's comment, the "fairly neutral on TSQ and dahill" looks exactly like a "I should probably mention my scumbuddy/ies at some point" post. I know it's early to be talking about buddies, but that comment really set off my alarms. As I currently have a town read on TSQ, that would leave dahill.

dahill's iso post 7 is better, but it's still of the "meh, not much of an opinion so far" variety.

I'm going to

unvote, vote: dahill

for now, and drop a

FoS: MBF

.

I truly hope your main reason for voting dahill isn't because of what I said.

Like I said, he seems to be adding not much to the game right now. Most of his comments have been about what he considers null-tells, which seems like a kind of active lurking.

Maybe, but if you're going to vote somebody for active lurking and useless comments, your vote would be more appropriately placed on a few other people.

Oh shoot, now I look like I'm defending my scumbuddy. Better change the topic fast...

vote: kloud

I get a bad vibe from his posts. Nothing about in particular, but it's a good place to put my vote until I find one.

[mikeburnfire]

*tumbleweed*

[mikeburnfire]

I feel like this is going nowhere.

TSQ, who should we lynch right now?

[mikeburnfire]

Whoops, looks like I was away for a little too long.

[mikeburnfire]

I just noticed that Cry is at 5 votes now. I'm not going to vote, but I do feel suspicious about her, and I would like to pressure her to give some flavor.

[mikeburnfire]

I just noticed that I am voting Cry under the name of "farside22". I will unvote because it's only 2 votes short of lynch, but I would still like to hear some flavor, Crywolf.

unvote: crywolf

MOD: Farside allowed me to take back my role

[mikeburnfire]

Triple post.

scotmany, do you have evidence that Cry is town? Is there a reason you have declared that Gorrad needs to die, other than he's "defensive" and you "don't like" his playstyle? Because where I'm sitting your last post reads "Crywolf is town, and now that she is about to die I will defend her to make myself look good while setting up Gorrad for tomorrow's lynch"

[mikeburnfire]

Cay's roleclaim of a duck does not bother me even though it is not a frog.

I agree with this statement. I'm going to give Crywolf a pass for now and place my vote elsewhere.

FOS: dahill

This isn't the first time Crywolf has said something that could be considered scummy, but you seem to be zeroing in on her scum-mason comment without actually giving an opinion on the claim itself.

[mikeburnfire]

you seem to be zeroing in on her scum-mason comment without actually giving an opinion on the claim itself.

Why do you consider this scummy?

Because it allows dahill to talk about crywolf's role without talking about the flavor. If he says he thinks a non-frog is town, then he has to start attacking elsewhere. If he says he thinks a non-frog is scum, then he limits the number of claims he can make later.

to clarify, it's not crywolf's roleclaim thats bothering me, but her comments on wanting to lynch her partner despite having on nulltell on said partner.

Yeah, that's the issue I have here. You're not saying a damn thing about the flavor.

I'm finding myself liking lurker lynches more and more recently.

At least read through the topic. You're top of the votecount, dude, try saying something.

You should do the exact same thing. Maybe you could provide something useful once in a while.

I'm getting annoyed by lurkers telling other people not to lurk.

Where the hell is TSQ?

PROD PLEASE, MOD

. And kloud.

Stop the damn quote pyramids.

vote: dahill1

Welcome Archon.

[mikeburnfire]

so you're voting me because i don't focus enough on flavor? that's a new one

I'm voting you because you ignored the flavor completely.

The fact that you did not know that there were pro-town non-frog roles in this game indicates to me that you are either vanilla-frog or mafia. Due to your suspicious behavior, I believe the latter. My vote stays for now.

[mikeburnfire]

There's something off about this answer that I'm having trouble exactly articulating. For example, dahill's not the only one who hasn't commented on the flavor. Also, there's kind of this assumption that dahill will have to claim/probably fake-claim at some point. The "attacking elsewhere" bit is odd too. Do you mean attacking a different person, or attacking a different aspect of cry's game?

Attacking a different person. He's already started in on Cry. If dahill gives her a pass, he'll have to begin a whole new case on somebody else.

1) Do we know that cry is town? All we know is that she's claiming pro-town non-frog.

I believe she is town. If she were scum, it would take guts to claim a non-frog in a game that has not given us any reason to believe there are non-frog pro-town roles.

2) How do you know all frogs are vanilla?

What makes you think they aren't?

[mikeburnfire]

Pay attention, dahill. I'm not clearing Cry solely for her flavor. I'm giving her a temporary pass because of how risky such a fake claim would have been.

[mikeburnfire]

Pay attention, dahill. I'm not clearing Cry solely for her flavor. I'm giving her a temporary pass because of how risky such a fake claim would have been.

what if she is a Duck but not town?

It is still a risky claim to make because there's no way to know that the town isn't entirely frogs.

You clearly know something or made assumptions. What/why?

My assumption is that the mafia, most likely being some sort of anti-frog predator such as snakes, would have no knowledge that there were pro-town non-frogs and, thus, would not be so quick to claim a pro-town non-frog.

[mikeburnfire]

unvote, vote MacavityLock

for (A) instantly believing Cry's mason claim and (B) trying to flush out the other mason.

[mikeburnfire]

Give me a reason why it's a bad thing to out the unconfirmed mason partners now that one's been outed.

Is this a serious question?

[mikeburnfire]

Yes, a duck could be a potentially risky claim

Thank you, moving on now.

Please tell me why masons that are not town-confirmed to each other are worth much more than vanilla.

What do we gain from knowing who is the other alleged possible-scum mason? If we can't confirm him to be pro-town, we gain nothing by learning his role. He's just like everybody else: a possible scum. The only one who benefits is the mafia, because masons who can't confirm each other are no more effective than townies, and knowing who the masons are leaves them more opportunities to kill, let's say, a cop or doc.

As a general rule, Role revealing on Day 1 is a big no-no. Mmnkay?

[mikeburnfire]

It's a slight increase in scum hitting a power role vs getting potentially useful information, that being the partner's opinion of cry with respect to night talk.

It's friggin' Day 1. How much useful information do you think he has? Seriously, you gotta be scum.

[mikeburnfire]

Unvote. Vote: MBF. Unfounded assumptions about setup that suggest additional knowledge, poor logic in terms of reactions to cry's claim...

Oh, the irony!

[mikeburnfire]

Yes, a duck could be a potentially risky claim

Thank you, moving on now.

You're really good at selectively quoting to serve your needs, aren't you?

agreed this was taken way out of context

I was being sarcastic, geez.

also, we need more people posting besides the 4-5 that are doing so now

Agreed.

It's friggin' Day 1. How much useful information do you think he has? Seriously, you gotta be scum.

Yet again, you've pulled that quote out of context with the rest of my post.

Not really. I just quoted the important point of your post.

[mikeburnfire]

NOTE: I'm going to be gone on the weekend and have limited access during the next week (which luckily coincides with the Night Phase), but I'll be here until Friday.

REMINDER: at deadline, it takes 4 votes to lynch.

I wouldn't mind lynching MacLock, RagingRabbit or dahill today. But since neither of them have any other votes, I'm going to

unvote, Vote No lynch

.

Gorrad, who do you think we should kill? With TSQ gone, you're the person I trust the most right now. Even though you have been eerily low-key all day phase.

[mikeburnfire]

Holy cow, we got a comprehensive post out of Gorrad!

I could see moving my vote over to Archon, but I don't know about Karne. I would need to review his posts first.

[mikeburnfire]

MBF, you ever been in a normal game that the town no lynched day 1?

Yes, several.

Right now my partner is trying to be active and I wanna talk to him.

So according to you, your partner is male, and was lurking, but is now fairly active. I'm pretty sure I could figure out who it is, thanks to the hints you've dropped.

[mikeburnfire]

Geez, look at all the people who get pissed when I vote no lynch. It's almost as if being cautious with our kills is a SIN!

[mikeburnfire]

Oh, looks like it's almost time for me to leave. I'll move my vote to Gorrad for now. I don't like how people are voting for the claimed mason on Day 1, and it's worse that Gorrad joined in near the deadline for some arbitrary "neighbor" comment. Plus, he has only recently started giving content. No hard feelings Gorrad. I just think there's a good possibility that you might be scum.

unvote, vote: Gorrad

[mikeburnfire]

Okay, I accept your explanation Gorrad.

unvote

Seeing as how Crywolf is the only one even close to a lynch with 5 votes, I guess I'll help it along. I'm not stupid enough to lynch just for the sake of lynching, and I hate the idea of lynching a claimed mason on Day 1. But she has acted suspicious, there's no denying that.

vote: CryWolf

We need to quickly consider the alleged mason partner. He hasn't shown himself yet, so he is either (A) unsure of CryWolf's innocence and is willing to let her die or (B) scum who is watching us kill the innocent mason without needing to reveal himself.

Given that CryWolf was so suspicious of her partner, but never directly told us who he was, I have a tendency to believe that if one of them is scum, it's her.

Man, I feel frustrated right now that I'm suddenly suspicious of the one person I've been defending all game. If we kill her and I'm wrong, we just killed a mason. If I'm right, then I'll be under a lot of suspicion tomorrow. Bleh.

Mod: since I'll be gone, I'd like to give my vote to Gorrad, allowing him to change my vote if some new information should come up. Is this allowed? I've seen it before in other games.

[mikeburnfire]

I thought about that, but there's also the scenario where both are innocent. Which is why I'm not pushing for a second reveal.

[mikeburnfire]

I'm back.

vote: Dizzy Izzy

More later, after I unwind from vacation.

[mikeburnfire]

TSQ, what is your take on Day 1 MBF blasting Gorrad for voting the claimed mason...then 8 posts later voting the claimed mason?, THEN...leaving the game for a bit and giving his vote to Gorrad? Do you feel like this is town play?

Hey, screw you man. Stop trying to get TSQ to turn on me!

On a related note, I've been sick this entire week. I blame being on a crowded airplane. Plan on me actually playing this game later today or tomorrow.

[mikeburnfire]

Okay, I've gone through the thread and have lots of notes. It's mainly just summaries of all the posts, so I won't clutter the thread.

Why I think Izzy is scum:
Crywolf instantly tried to get Archon, her neighbor, lynched
Izzy is a duck, and ducks are more likely to be scum than frogs
Izzy is a "neighbor", which are more likely than masons to have at least one scum, and the other neighbor is dead
Izzy acted like she knew ducks were safeclaims

Mainly, there is a lot of evidence against Izzy from my perspective, and little reason not to believe she is scum. TSQ said it all very well, and I pretty much agree with everything he has said. However, half of the evidence is Meta, and the other half is sketchy. I know it's not the best case against somebody, and I have other suspicions I want to follow up on. I need to do a bit more review.

[mikeburnfire]

Ducks eat frogs. Duh.

[mikeburnfire]

Contradictions ahoy!

You know what the best part about giving somebody a temporary pass is? It's only temporary, and can be reversed as new information arises.

Really, as scum, cay would have no incentive to get her neighbor lynched. She would be giving up influence that she could have over a member of the town.

No offense, but she didn't really seem to be playing the best. She was close to lynch and panicking.

MBF's next two reasons are based on the duck claim, and believe it is more likely to be scum despite there being a dead town duck, and her being a neighbor. Her being a neighbor does not make her scum.

Like I said, the evidence is meta-based and sketchy, but it's still there.

However she did not say that ducks were safeclaims.

My mistake. Cheerfully withdrawn.

I think you need to "clutter" now..that is no excuse to post a bad case.

Oh, poor, naive CKD. I said I had other suspicions I wanted to follow up on. Just give me some more time.

[mikeburnfire]

Sorry, everybody. I've been out of the game for a long time and I've forgotten how tedious this is. I can think of a dozen other things I'd rather be doing right now, but I'm trying to force myself into this. If it seems like I'm just going "That's a good point, but that's a good point too!", it's because I am. I see arguments I agree with and follow them. I get really bad vibes from scotmany, and I want to go through his posts to bring up all the reasons he could be scum, but that's too much work. I'll just post what I have.

Then why the fack are you [Gorrad] not pushing for the other mason to claim? If you truly believe what you are saying, then you want the other mason to come out incase cay turns up town.

CW: Partner claim, please.

So we just let Gorrad succeed in out the two masons. Congratulations everyone. Can we lynch Gorrad now?

In this series of events, Gorrad is suspicious for not pushing for the other mason to claim, and then he's scum because he DID get the other mason to claim. It is with this information that scotmany has been trying to strongarm a lynch on Gorrad.

vote MBF for instantly listening to Gorrad and for proxying his vote to him. He really has no reason to trust Gorrad as much as he did.

Gorrad made a good point about Cry that made me rethink my position. Nothing's cleared him yet. Maybe I proxied my vote to him to see how he'd use it. Ever think of that, smart guy?

It was weird in the beginning of the game how scot stood up to the cry lynch so much with so little reason. A lot of people who were voting her were doing it on the grounds that she was lurking, but scot said that lurking was fine because she did it in another game where she was pro-town. It seemed odd to call a lurker-wagon "a complete joke" when the only defense he has is a meta.

[mikeburnfire]

Contradictions ahoy!

You know what the best part about giving somebody a temporary pass is? It's only temporary, and can be reversed as new information arises.

So what happened to change your mind on the flavor, other than a dead townie duck?

Actually, screw it. Screw flavor. Flavor means nothing. I thought flavor meant something, because it does in most games. But the more I think about it, the more I think flavor was just randomly assigned in this game. Everything I say about flavor and it making somebody more or less likely to be scum I retract. I feel stupid, and I give up on trying to make sense of that crap.

[mikeburnfire]

Enough, scotmany. In this game there are two "night-talkers". Normally, two people who are night-talkers are "masons", and are referred to as such. But because they aren't both town, they can't be called masons. Hence, "neighbor".

I don't think this reasoning is as sound as I once did, but it's still a valid way to interpret the role.

[mikeburnfire]

Whether or not you agree with the reasons why I think you're scum, I still do.

1 I'm not saying that you're scum because you're neighbors, I'm saying that you're neighbors because you're scum.

2 Crywolf instantly tried to get her scumpartner lynched right after she claimed. Go look. She was all like "Okay, well I'm a duck mason but I have no evidence my partner is town so we should definitely lynch her maybe"

3 Like it or not, your neighbor-ness does not clear you in the same way that being a mason would. Your predecessor and neighbor have both attested to this by being incredibly suspicious of each other.

Right now, I'm looking to see if I can build up a case on scotmany. I think he's scum, and if I'm right, he'll get lynched, be proven scum, and then we can focus on you, whom he defended early on.

[mikeburnfire]

That is not "trying to get someone lynched".

Yes it is.

All I've been saying is that given the lack of a solid meta for the situation, it should be regarded as a null-tell,

I disagree.

if I recall...didnt you have a replacement then beg to get back into the game?

No, I was replaced, and farside asked me to take my role back because he was already in 4 minis.

So, the first time I actually attack MBF, he suddenly thinks I am scum. Really nice OMGUS.

You're not the only person who's suddenly attacking me. I've had these suspicions on you yesterday, ever sense you contradicted yourself to assault Gorrad. But really, I like how keep attacking me without answering up to your own suspicious behavior.

This accusation has no basis at all and is pure and simple trying to outguess the mod.

You are correct. Please ignore everything I have said about flavor. It was dumb.

this, to me, just looks like wishy washy scum who wants to lynch izzy but not take the blame for it

I'm wishy washy town who wants to lynch izzy but is having a hard time justifying it. However, I understand how a lot of you think the case on izzy is weak, so I'm making a compromise here. We lynch scotmany, who is also scum. Once he has been exposed, I'll try again on izzy.

[mikeburnfire]

This is the post where I put my money where my mouth is.

unvote, vote scotmany

[mikeburnfire]

I've been bringing up cases on people all game. But the common theme seems to be to dismiss any accusation as "things being taken out of context"

[mikeburnfire]

It's not out of context. I just don't want to quote everything like our friend Izzy just did. I'll compromise. I'll just directly link to your posts as I mention them.

scotmany, you said very many times in the beginning of the game that you didn't want to give your suspicions. You were very non-confrontational, and when RR asked for your suspicions, you refused to give them. The only time you showed any interest in voting for somebody happened to be once Crywolf seemed like the inevitable lynch, at which point you called the wagon a joke and ridiculous and went headfast after Gorrad. Now, your reasoning for voting Gorrad was logical (I totally agree that he was active lurking), but the fact that you were so withdrawn until Crywolf was in a corner, then zeroed in on Gorrad who you had scarcely mentioned all game, is suspicious. I also can't help but notice that you say that Gorrad using his meta is scummy, but you defend Crywolf's lurking as her meta.

Afterwords, you tried to convince Gorrad that he should lynch the OTHER mason. And when Archon posts, you claim thathe is one of the people you would go after. If you are scum with CryWolf, it makes sense that you would want Archon dead, especially if you're trying to convince everybody that the one-neighbor-must-be-scum meta is false.

[mikeburnfire]

Could you double check that votecount? I know at least that dahill is voting for me.

[mikeburnfire]

MBF, a player using their own meta is wifom. Someone else providing meta for another player is not.

Unless those two players were on the same team.

Really, it looks like you are trying to say I am scum because I have been defending Cay. If that's the point, then you would need to know her alignment before you vote for me.

Not really. I can see it both ways. If Crywolf is getting lynched and you two are scum, you can try to quickly switch the wagon onto somebody else. However, another explanation could be that once you saw Crywolf's lynch was almost inevitable, you defend her so as to look good the next day when she is revealed t be innocent.

And you are misinterpreting my posts. I never once tried to get Gorrad to lynch Archon.

Yes, what you say makes sense. You were showing flaws in his argument. But what about the rest?

scotmany, you said very many times in the beginning of the game that you didn't want to give your suspicions. You were very non-confrontational, and when RR asked for your suspicions, you refused to give them. The only time you showed any interest in voting for somebody happened to be once Crywolf seemed like the inevitable lynch, at which point you called the wagon a joke and ridiculous and went headfast after Gorrad. Now, your reasoning for voting Gorrad was logical (I totally agree that he was active lurking), but the fact that you were so withdrawn until Crywolf was in a corner, then zeroed in on Gorrad who you had scarcely mentioned all game, is suspicious.

i like how MBF switches his suspicion to someone else once he sees that his case doesn't hold any ground

So what you're saying is that I should stubbornly stick with attacking one person, even if the logic is proven flawed and only a few people agree? Or are you saying that I can't look for multiple mafioso at once?

[mikeburnfire]

I guess I could go with an MBF lync if necessary, but I really think we'd be better off lynching Gorrad scum.

I'll bet you could. Anyone other than you, right?

Also, Dahill, how would you expect a pro-town player to react to having their case proven wrong? Just curious.

Not anyone. Just anyone who could be scum.

So... anyone.

[mikeburnfire]

Ugh. Post this afternoon.

[mikeburnfire]

Okay, I've already admitted I've been playing terribly. I don't know if it's just this game, or the fact that this is the first game I've played in 2 years, but I've just been screwing everything up. I didn't realize just how bad until CK put all my errors into one huge post. Some of the stuff in there is bullcrap (like scotmany OMGUS, scumlinks to Izzy, and claiming that independant metas are worth less than other metas), but I can see now just how badly I've screwed this up.

When Crywolf claimed Duck and people started to tear into him for being a not-frog, I defended him because I was also a pro-town non-frog. Specifically, a Toad (not a hairy toad, just a toad). But after Crywolf's suspicious behavior, I got it stuck in my mind that she was scum, and I tried to get her lynched. All the flavor nonsense I was spouting that didn't make any sense was just an excuse for getting Crywolf lynched. It's what scum do, I admit, but I had tunnel vision and wanted him dead. Some of the stuff held water (crywolf's poor behavior, and the neighbor-thing), but a lot of the stuff I spouted about flavor didn't make sense.

When I went on vacation I was still trying to check the game. I wanted to passively defend Archon's Toad claim and wanted to question Scotmany's seemingly contradicting statements, but my internet service ran out. Which is why it's so frustrating when people call my vote on scotmany OMGUS. I'd been suspicious of him since the end of Day 1, and just because he voted me first on Day 2 doesn't mean that MY vote doesn't count.

When I started in on scotmany, I thought I brought up some pretty good arguments, but EVERY SINGLE TIME I made an argument, he had a reasonable explanation for it. Well, I thought he was scum, so I was having none of that. I thought he was scum, so I just kept attacking him. As it is, I still think he's scum, but I should have acknowledged that he had explained all his suspicious behavior. All game long I've been assuming people are scum and trying to find evidence against them, instead of actually looking for scum. In a similar way, I've been ignoring Gorrad's scummy behavior for the most part. I thought he was town, so I really haven't been calling him out on his mistakes. I hope this explains all my actions this game so far. Let me know if there's anything in specific you want me to answer.

Speaking of Gorrad, where the hell is he? He once said of me "Generally good, intelligent posts. Likely town", but now that I'm about to be lynched, he hasn't said a damn thing. Hell, he hasn't said anything all day except "Vote Izzy, screw scot". It's like he's just sitting back and watching the town lynch one of their own.

Yesterday while pondering this game over in my head, I theorized that maybe Gorrad and scotmany are scum together, and that scot was bussing Gorrad. It's been tunnelvision, like Gorrad said, but maybe it was planned. I don't think this is likely, since scotmany has been REALLY REALLY pushing Gorrad, but I need to keep all options open.

As for the likelyhood of people being scum, I still think it's quite possible that Izzy could be scum. Same thing for scotmany. And Gorrad and dahill. I haven't really been paying attention to everybody else due to my severe tunnelvision, but they could be scum too. The only people I have good vibes from so far are TSQ and CK. All of TSQ's posts have been solid, but he was completely absent Day 1, so I can't give him as much credit as I would like. And CK went through a lot of effort for that pbpa of me, which is something I wouldn't expect a scum to do especially as I'm close to lynch. However, as TSQ points out, it's pretty biased to me being scum, and it's still something that scum can do. So, I guess I'm not helping again.

I can't promise I'll be more useful in the future, but I promise to try harder if you don't lynch me now. But for now, I see that I'm at Lynch-1. I thought I was lynched too when Izzy voted me, so I would appreciate a little more wiggle room. I'll give you my role soon, but first I'd like to hear more from RR, Gorrad, and TSQ. None of them have really given their opinion on my wagon. TSQ just posted that he didn't like the pbpa on me, but he cleverly avoided giving his opinion on me in the process.

[mikeburnfire]

i don't understand why you would continue to push a case that you knew was BS..
also I don't really get your case on scotmany. you said he provided a reasonable explanation for each point, but you still wish to lynch him. doesn't that make it just gut? also for the record, i'm not voting you because you're not useful. and you should claim in your next post i see no reason why you'd need to hear for others before claiming

Yeah, I've been playing this by gut. Really no logic involved. I still think he's scum, even if there's only a scarce amount of evidence.

A claim is useful because it reveals information. Getting other peoples' opinions is another, more useful way to reveal information. There's really no need to rush this, as we aren't currently deadlined.

[mikeburnfire]

I... wasn't planning on it..?

I just want some questions answered.

[mikeburnfire]

Then maybe you should actually read it.

Still waiting for TSQ to give his opinion of me.

[mikeburnfire]

I have read it. The whole thing about admitting to screw up, claiming to do scummy actions, and the whole thing of promising to try harder is all appeal to emotion.

There's also the part where, you know, I EXPLAIN THE REASONING BEHIND ALL OF MY ACTIONS.

They're what I'd expect from him as town. Admitting to tunnelvision and playing by gut, for a player of MBF's caliber...frankly, as scum, I'd expect him to play better. For me, at least, disinterest is a town-tell. Scum have a harder job, they have more at stake in the day phase, so they post more. Power-roles have this too to an extent. When I'm a vanilla townie, I'm usually significantly less into a game than when I'm scum, and I tend to apply that to others as well.

Gorrad won so friggin hard just now. Seriously. He hit the nail right on the head. I'm a townie.

Citizen Karne, TSQ is right about your pbpa. It's unbelievably slanted against me. You went through all my posts, tried to find everything that could be construed as suspicious, and put it all together as evidence that I'm scum. It's tunnelvisioning, and it's not good. You're just doing what I've been doing. It's very hypocritical. Like so:

Gorrad used a self-meta. scot meta'd cry. Those are tow VERY different things. Self-metas are not acceptable, while independent metas are. If you say you cannot see the the difference between these, you are either lying or a bad player.

They're what I'd expect from him as town. Frankly, as scum, I'd expect him to play better

This is almost entirely composed of WIFOM.

See how you contradict yourself? You say that metas on other people are okay, but metas are me are WIFOM.

TSQ, stop bickering with Citizen Karne and GIVE ME A FUCKING OPINION.

[mikeburnfire]

I hate how everybody who doesn't think I'm scum is just retreating quietly and letting me get lynched.

[mikeburnfire]

Yeah, once I forced you to. But you and TSQ, people who have once said that they thought I was town, almost let me die without saying a damn thing.

[mikeburnfire]

I was just going to come in here and post a one line "hurry up and lynch me" post, but I felt like being awesome instead.

In response to CK's biased pbpa of me, I will now defend myself in a similar fashion.
0. Joke post
1. Joke post
2. Defended TSQ, commenting on things
3. Got negative vibes from Crywolf
4. Defended Hatorade (now confirmed town) from TSQ's attacks.
5. Got negative vibes from kloud
6. Joke Post
7. Getting bored, I ask TSQ his opinion.
8. I acknowledge being replaced
9. Noticing that Crywolf is at 5 votes, I ask for a flavor claim, as it is less dangerous than a role claim
10. I unvote to be safe
11. I grill scot for his sudden defense of Crywolf and attack of Gorrad
12. Upon Cry claiming pro-town non-frog, I unvote, give her a pass, then move on to dahill
13. I continue to grill dahill, and get pissed at lurkers
14. I suspect dahill for flavor-related reasons
15. I try to explain my flavor-related suspicions on dahill
16. I defend cry based on flavor
17. I defend cry based on flavor
18. I vote MacLock for trying to out the other mason (who is now confirmed town)
19. Argue with MacLock that the other mason should not come forward.
20. Argue with MacLock that the other mason should not come forward.
21. Argue with MacLock more.
22. Sarcastic remark
23. Argue with MacLock about miscontextualizing his post or some shit.
24. Ask for Gorrad's opinion, vote no lynch to get some discussion going
25. Give soft comments on Archon and Karne
26. Notify Crywolf that she is slowly outing her partner
27. Joke post
28. Vote Gorrad for active lurking
29. unvote Gorrad once he explains himself. vote cry for suspicious behavior which I had tried to ignore, proxy my vote to Gorrad (because the Crywolf wagon looked inevitable, and I wanted to see if he'd try anything funny)
30. Explain that it's possible that both neighbors could be innocent, so I do not want the other neighbor outed.
***ARCHON LYNCH***
31. Vote crywolf's replacement Izzy.
32. Joke post
33. Explain my vote on Izzy, but admit that the reasoning is meta and sketchy.
34. "Ducks eat frogs". Mainly, I thought Izzy was scum. And I began to think "surely we can't possibly have TWO pro-town ducks. One of them must be scum"
35. Continue to push cry's lynch with some pretty good logic, actually.
36. Try to bring up my case on scotmany. For the next couple of posts, I'll point out his suspicious behavior, for which he'll be able to easily explain himself.
37. I realize that all my flavor-based arguments were dumb.
38. I try to defend the meta-based arguments on Izzy.
39. I try to defend arguments on Izzy. Some meta-based. Some evidence-based.
40. Arguing with several people
41. vote scotmany, something I either forgot to do at the time, or because I still wanted IZzy dead. I can't remember.
42. Get frustrated.
43. Present a huge case against scotmany. Now, some of the stuff I said earlier was easily explained away, but this stuff has yet to be answered for I believe.
44. Mod correction
45->Now. Self-defense.

Huh. Now that I take a step back, I haven't been playing so badly afterall. A lot of my posts are very logical, and aside from a few that are tunnel-vision and misinterpretations, I've made a lot of good points. Why the hell am I so apologetic about this?

In the beginning I tried to use flavor to find scum. In hindsight I can see that it was a futile endeavor, but at the time it was the appropriate action to take. It's better than the random votes, active lurking, and lurking accusations that every other person was doing. Flavor isn't always useless. In fact, I remember a Futurama-themed game that I broke open based on flavor (link on request).

In regards to Izzy, I still think that being a neighbor is a point against him, but not as much as Crywolf's sucpicious behavior, as I pointed out here. I would also like it noted that while MacLock and Gorrad were pushing for the second mason to out themselves, I was pushing AGAINST it.

In regards to scotmany, I was initially suspicious that he wanted Gorrad to out the second mason, then vote him when he did. Scotmany has clarified himself on that, and it was something that I had misinterpreted. However, I later pointed out a LOT of suspicious behavior on your part in my post 43. All of the stuff in this post is still a valid argument against you, and it's a shame that everybody ignored it.

In regards to dahill, you say that you were "on board for an izzy lynch until MBF posted that ridiculous case and voted for her, and he hasn't been much better since then." Do you really believe that? First of all you AGREED with half of the "ridiculous case" in question. Another part was flavor-related that I have since retracted. The other was in regards to the neighbor thing, which I still think is important, even though others disagree. Also, do you really think I "haven't been much better since"? Seriously? It's a bit soul-crushing that I would start putting lots of effort into the game, and you act like it's no big deal.

In regards to Gorrad, you are a good player. You have made many points this game that I agree with. But you were actively lurking for 90% of Day 1. I tried to ignore this because many great players don't need to say much to be effective scumhunters (The Fonz comes to mind). But it's continued through Day 2 and you're not being as helpful as I would have liked. Also, you've been focused on mostly Izzy, with a little of suspicioun thrown towards Karne and Archon. That's about it. I just about died back there and you gave no opinion on it until I called you out on it. I actually had to single you out.
+ + Now, you're still good at this game. I can tell because you essentially figured out my role just by reading me. And you're really the only person who defended me in the slightest way. But none of this tell me your alignment one way or the other. Maybe you're town, and the only person who's isn't so quick to string me up. But you could also be scum who saw I was about to die, and defended me to score a few more points for yourself. Maybe you've been speculating about my role because you're looking for power roles to kill. I don't know. And I won't know unless you start interacting more.

In regards to CK and CKD, you two mesh together in my mind. I have a lot of trouble not confusing the two of you. Regardless, none of you stand out much. Been playing the game, but also keeping out of trouble. That pbpa from CK was pretty biased, but doesn't make you scum necessarily. Could just be misguided town.

Thestatusquo, you disappeared for a month , so I have little read on you. However, I can tell you play with your cards close to you, very diligently like a scum might. Also, getting an specific opinion out of you is very frustrating. I think you are more likely to be scum than Gorrad.

MacavityLock has been flying under the radar for awhile now. I don't have much. His vote on me from Day 1 looks more OMGUS than my vote on scot did, though that's not really important. Certainly likes taking the easy lynch though. His initial vote on dahill was stupid, though.

No read on the Rabbit. Only about 20 posts, and half of them are placeholders. You need to post more.

As it stands, I'm about to die. If that's the case, then so be it, but if I'm dead tomorrow, you will most likely have two more dead pro-town roles. Then everybody will go back to their original suspicions. Half the town will suspect Gorrad. The other half will suspect Izzy. It's practically a stalemate. HOWEVER!...

something that I noticed is that almost ALL of you who suspect Gorrad think "I bet MBF's scum with Gorrad". Likewise for those of you who suspect Izzy. Wouldn't it be better to lynch one of them, rather than me? If I'm dead, then regardless of my alignment, you'll be trying to decide between killing Gorrad or Izzy, and if I'm a dead townie and another townie dies, then this decision could be the one that dictates whether or not the town wins. If I'm scum, you haven't made hardly any progress by killing me (because you're still split into factions). If I'm town, then not only are you undecided, but you've also put yourself in lynch-or-lose position tomorrow.

If you're town, I hope this post helps us catch scum. If you're scum, I hope I just screwed up your plans by not going down without a fight.

Oh, also..

MIKEBURNFIRE IS BACK BITCHES!!

[mikeburnfire]

This is just awful. If you are scum, then we have made tons of progress. We lynched scum. You acting like we won't gain anything by lynched you is ludicrous.

AGAIN, when I'm dead, the town will still be split over who to kill next. If I'm scum, that'd be okay because you'd have some leeway. If I'm town (which I am), you're in Lynch or Lose and in trouble because the town in divided on what to do. This is assuming 3 scum of course.

I'm very happy with an MBF lynch right now. Somebody hammer him so we can get to working on Gorrad.

Thank you for proving my point.

[mikeburnfire]

i can understand you wanting to lynch izzy but didn't you just mention how you don't have a read on gorrad yet?

Well, obviously *I* would be on the side pushing for Izzy's lynch.

1) My vote on you day 1 was clearly building before your vote on me, and that post and vote was the tipper for me. 2) Me being on the easy lynch is crap. Day 1 I was the 2nd vote on Archon. Today I was the first vote on you, and the day isn't over yet. 3) I maintain that my dahill vote was reasonable for page 6.

1) Fine. 2) Archon was easy to kill, and my wagon was building since day 1. 3) OK, I'll give you that.

Dizzy and Scot are probably scum, so I won't ask them to unvote, but the rest of y'all should.

While I am almost certain that Dizzy is scum, I'm less confident about scotmany. He's still suspect for reasons I pointed out, and his explanation doesn't cut it for me, but he could still go either way. He's higher on my likely-scum list than you or Maclock (who I'm starting to feel pretty good about), but not much more than TSQ or Rabbit. If Izzy turned out to be town, I'd be less inclined to think scotman is scum as a result.

That's nice. Keep up with the OMGUS on me.

You use the term "OMGUS" to callously. Your penalty is that you are no longer allowed to type those five letters for the rest of the game.

The word "townie" to me does not necessarily read as vanilla. You might very well be right, but I'd like to hear it from MBF to make sure.

Yes, I meant vanilla townie.

I'm very happy with an MBF lynch right now. Somebody hammer him so we can get to working on Gorrad.

Five people are voting me now. Gorrad and TSQ would prefer to lynch Izzy. Rabbit's hasn't really been in the game. I won't vote for myself. This leaves scotman. It's no small co-incidence that scotman posted "[MBF's post] is not something a town would post" right before you asked for a hammer. You want scotman to hammer me. The only question now is: Are you trying to convince him to hammer me, or are you trying to get the town's approval so your scumbuddy can hammer me safely?

Right now, if I had to call out the scum, it would be Izzy, scotman, and either TSQ or CKD (leaning TSQ)

[mikeburnfire]

MacLock, It's true that I didn't think frogs could be a power role. I assumed frogs to be the vanilla townie of this game. Even though I was not a literal frog, I considered my toad role to be only a slight variation in flavor. The quote in question is in regards to dahill's comment. Dahill said "I expected the game to be all frogs". This indicated to me that he was either a vanilla frog, or mafia.

Of course, since flavor has since been proven useless in determining scum, this is now moot.

Yet you keep your vote on me?

My mistake. I could have sworn I was voting Izzy.

*unvote, vote Izzy

*

Gorrad has yet to give any case on me. Out of no where he says I am scum. That's an OMGUS.

No it isn't. He's previously accused you of tunnelvisioning, so it isn't out of nowhere. Also, he didn't vote you. Please look up the definition of OMGUS.

Just curious mike, what animal are you?

I claimed my flavor two pages ago. I know my posts are big, but try to keep up.

Also can you explain your flip-flop on the issue of what being a duck actually means flavor-wise? Or at least point out where they are, because if they are there I've missed them.

When Crywolf claimed duck, I was a little surprised. Ducks aren't usually friends to frogs. But it didn't make sense to me for mafia to claim a non-frog role, since there was no evidence yet that non-frogs (and non-toads) were in this game.

Then kloud was killed. He was a pro-town duck. I should have come to the realization that flavor is unreliable at this point, but I still thought it held value. I thought that surely there couldn't be TWO pro-town ducks (or TWO pro-town neighbors, for that matter). At least one of them had to be scum. Eventually reality sunk in and I realized that flavor can't be used to confirm or deny anybody in this game.

[mikeburnfire]

I don't want to start a semantic battle either, so I'll drop it. But you have been focused on only a few people to the point where it can be called tunnelvision. After all, you've only gone after myself and Gorrad today, and yesterday you were solely focused on Gorrad for most of the day. What is your opinion on the other players? Also, if anyone drops the hammer on me it'll be you. Do you plan on doing that any time soon? Just curious. You seem unflinchingly convinced I'm scum, so I'm assuming the only reason you haven't already is because that would end the day prematurely.

At this point, I don't know how Rabbit is going to catch up. I'm willing to wager that he posts a few more placeholder posts before eventually giving up and requesting replacement.

Prove me wrong, rabbit.

[mikeburnfire]

I am curious as to why you believe TSQ to be town. He was absent for a good portion of the game, and when he has been present he has been doing things like arguing why a pbpa is bad and asking everybody questions instead of giving his opinion on people (other than Izzy). Hell, getting his opinion about my bandwagon was like pulling teeth.

It's interesting to note that the two people you believe to be town, dahill and shea, are both suspicious of Izzy, and that you do not include Izzy as one of the people you believe to be town.

[mikeburnfire]

I'm not sure what question you're talking about. If you're looking for my opinion on Gorrad, it's here.

That doesn't make sense. If TSQ and I are suspicious of Izzy and scot thinks we're town..then how would that make him think that Izzy is town as well?

What? I'm saying it's odd that the people he thinks are town think Izzy is scum, and that Izzy isn't on his list of people he thinks is town. I had previously gotten the impression that he thought Izzy was town.

[mikeburnfire]

In which you support a Gorrad or Izzy lynch over yourself. So my question was didn't you (in that post you just linked to) say you had a neutral reading on Gorrad? If so, why would you call for his lynch along with one of the players who you are sure is scum.

First of all, I would support a lynch of anybody over myself, as I have confirmation that I am town whereas I do not have it on anybody else. But what I'm TRYING to say there is that the town is split between killing Gorrad and Izzy, and that if we make no progress today, then the town will still be completely divided and at lynch-or-lose. Understand now?

First, tell my why you thought there couldn't be two pro-town ducks, and then tell me why you instead said that your reason for being suspiscious of Izzy's duckiness was because ducks eat frogs.

'Duck' is a suspicious claim. We already had a pro-town duck, which is a weird thing to have in a frog-town because ducks eat frogs in real life. Two of them seemed ridiculous to me.

Scot, I said back then and I still believe it to be true that CryW, who was getting close to being lynched, panicked and used her neighbor-partner as a scapegoat. Scum may not try to lynch somebody that they can influence, but they will keep their lynch open, which explains why she expressed suspicion of her partner, but never voted him. Once crywolf was replaced, Archon had already voted her, proving that he would not be easily influenced by the 'masonry', at which point Izzy voted him.

[mikeburnfire]

No, I'm saying it's a legit claim by an anti-town duck pretending to be pro-town duck. I gave crywolf a temporary pass because pro-town duck seemed like an insane thing to claim.

[mikeburnfire]

I'm not lurking, I just see no need to comment since we appear to have caught scum and we need a hammer.

How convenient for you. You lynch your innocent neighbor-partner, tunnelvision Gorrad and myself, never give an opinion on anybody else, then lurk until another innocent is killed. You should have been killed a long time ago.

At this point, MBF is twisting himself in knots with regard to his reactions to flavor throughout this game. Someone please hammer.

Actually, I've perfectly explained all my reactions to flavor throughout the game and some people just can't accept it because they've already convinced themselves that I'm scum.

[mikeburnfire]

My vote moved to Izzy a while ago. We need Rabbit

now

, Shanba. He needs to be replaced or modkilled.

[mikeburnfire]

Gorrad is scum for all the reasons I have said previously. he does not have the town's best interest at heart, and now that I think of it, he has been accusing my of tunneling, when he is also tunneling on dizzy. At least I have been commenting on the whole MBF thing, Gorrad has been doing nothing.

Gorrad was one of the first people to defend me. And really, you're both tunneling pretty bad.

Right now, I think MBF is more likely to be scum than town, but I am sure that Gorrad is scum. I still have doubts with MBF.

I really don't think there's a whole lot of evidence that suggests Gorradscum. I'll have to back and look at the reasons you gave for him being scum, but I think that there are better lynches today.

Therefore, either MBF is scum, or all the scum are on his wagon.

It would be stupid for all the scum to be on my wagon. Afterall, the town was barreling towards my lynch, so a

smart

scum would just let the town lynch their own.... Which is what you and TSQ were doing. Raging Rabbit isn't around to hammer me. He could very well be scum. I'd say best odds is that two scum are on my wagon now, one isn't.

The only person this wagon clears for me is scotman. He had the perfect opportunity to lynch me and had actually pushed for my lynch earlier. It would have been EASY for him to kill me and get away with it. Do you still think he's scum?

As for CKD, he's just another one of the people who say I'm scum and will do anything to justify it. His last post reads like this:
TSQ and MBF aren't suspicious of each other! They must be scum....
TSQ and MBF are expression suspicion of each other! They must be distancing...

[mikeburnfire]

If you think I am tunneling, then so is basically everyone else in this game.

At least half the players are, but that doesn't make it a good thing.

lynch order preference at the moment:
MBF
Izzy (although it is slightly rising, will explain later)\

When? After I'm dead?

[mikeburnfire]

Gorrad, answer my damn question. Do you still think scotman is scum?

CKD, I've already explained away everything in that "case" several times. If you can't be bothered to go read my posts, I can't be bothered to repeat myself. Although for this point:

I never said anything remotely close to that....guess you are really feeling the heat if you are blatantly lying...you are scum for many other reasons, none of which has anything to do with your interaction (or lack of) with TSQ.

1) I'm not lying. When you say things like "do I see a MBFscum making this comment about TSQscum at this point?", you are inferring that I am scum and that TSQ is scum.
2) If my interaction (or lack of) with TSQ is not one of the reasons you think I'm scum, then

stop mentioning it.

You're wasting my time.
3) I am feeling the heat because we're about to kill a townie, tomorrow we will be at lynch or lose, the town will be equally divided on whether to lynch Gorrad or Izzy, and the person who holds the deciding vote has lurked the entire game.

Oh, and of those 3 points that Karne wants TSQ to address, I'd like to say that I've already addressed the first one, the second one is stupid and ends with a lie, and the third one focuses on Day 1 screwing around instead of my Day 2 actual playing.

[mikeburnfire]

Nice of you to finally join us rabbit.

Izzy is totally town, it continues to baffle how half the town wants to lynch her. The duck goes a strong way towards redeeming her in itself, and her behavior since replacing in I see as genuine town. Only thing standing against her is her predecessor's early game behavior, which was good for a page 4 wagon but isn't much to look at now.

Meanwhile, I have no idea why people are so sure Izzy is town. I disagree that the duck thing is redeeming. The scum could very well have had knowledge about flavor being randomly assigned. But I can also understand the argument that if she were mafia she would have been better off fake claiming. But how can you say that her behavior is genuine town? Ever since his predecessor got Archon, her innocent neighbor-partner lynched, Izzy has done nothing except tunnelvision Gorrad and myself. That's ALL he's done. I'm looking at his posts right now and that's all there is. No comment on dahill1, Thestatusquo, curiouskarmadog, Raging Rabbit, scotmany12, MacavityLock, or Citizen Karne - just "Hey, why aren't you guys voting Gorrad/MBF?"

To everybody who has said that they think Izzy is town, I ask....

WHY?

Maybe the early cases against him were weak, but how does that clear him as town in any way?

Scot is probably scum. He's spent the entire game flying under the radar, in a way that feels very intentional to me.

You just described half the town just now.

He's been emptily declaring that Gorrad's obvscum for ages now, with no real case to back him up.

Tunnelvisioning is the "in" thing it seems.

Also that allowed him to dissmiss Izzy, who seemed like the obvious (mis)lynch at the point he called her wagon BS. He could easily be doing the same with MBF-town today.

I can see where you are coming from with this. However, I was RIGHT THERE on the chopping block, and he had the PERFECT OPPORTUNITY to kill me. He had already expressed suspicion of me, and if he didn't hammer me, there was no guarantee there would be enough votes to kill me. He's either town, or a scum who is sacrificing good play to create a WIFOM scenario. He's number one on my list of likely town. I mean, from your point of view we could still be scumbuddies, but a ScotScum-MBFtown scenario is very unlikely.

I'm sorta wavering on the hammer, though, since the strongest thing he has going for him

...is that I've been the most helpful player, addressing all points against me, and actively scumhunting through everybody instead of mindlessly focusing on one specific person?

...is that I think that if he and Scot were buddies, the right move for Scot would clearly be to hammer

That could go either way. One one hand, he's be making himself look good and ending the day quickly. One the other hand, he'd be killing his scummate and look suspicious for ending the day early.

(I'd like to stress out again how much the "but one neighbor HAS to be scum!" WIFOM sucks),

First of all, will people please look up the definition to WIFOM before they use it? Second of all, it's a valid point to consider, although very very circumstantial.

My reads on everyone else range from neutral to strong town, and I don't think it'd be to the town's benefit for me to go to further detail on this atm.

You've been gone for the entire day. Go into further detail.

[mikeburnfire]

I'd just like to take this opportunity to triple post and say that even though I'm very busy with real life right now, I plan on going through the game soon and posting a thorough case on everybody. I mean, I've got to pull the weight for all of you slackers who are lurking (Rabbit), arguing over semantics (TSQ), and tunnelvisioning (everybody else)

[mikeburnfire]

Oh, and of those 3 points that Karne wants TSQ to address, I'd like to say that I've already addressed the first one, the second one is stupid and ends with a lie, and the third one focuses on Day 1 screwing around instead of my Day 2 actual playing.

Stop trying to scare the town into doing your bidding.

What the fuck are you talking about? What part of that was

fearmongering?

Her predecessor did not "get archon lynched", it was a

joint effort

led by your dear Gorrad. And from where I'm standing, there's nothing wrong with focusing on two main suspects (which she makes excellent points against), as long as you don't completely forget about everyone else (which I didn't really feel was the case).

So she

did

get Archon lynched. Gorrad may have pushed it, but Crywolf started it and pushed it.

You realize that you're still very probably gonna die today, right? What does scum-Scot has to lose from waiting to gain some townie points?

Yes, I'm aware. But like I said, he was the only one who could hammer me, and if he didn't there was no guarantee the lynch wagon wouldn't disband.

Why aren't you applying the "he'd look scummy for ending the day early" argument to Scot-scum, you-town? It's much stronger if that's the case, since ending the day early is very excusable if it leads to lynching scum.

Because, like I already said many many times, IT WOULD BE EASY TO KILL ME AND GET AWAY WITH IT.

How would that help, exactly? Other than give scum more info on the correct NK, that is?

Holy crap! Scumhunting helps the scum? OMG, nobody make any more posts the rest of the game.

Yes, this is a valid point, but you've been hammering it on and on for a really long time now and using it as an excuse to not scumhunt.

You are accusing scotman of being scum for doing the exact thing that Izzy has done, but declare Izzy town.

lynch order preference at the moment:
MBF
Izzy (although it is slightly rising, will explain later)\

When? After I'm dead?

I meant for today because depending on your alignment the list could change

So, in other words, YES after I am dead.

[mikeburnfire]

I didn't feel the need to repeat what other people have already stated.

Of course. Why bother doing any work yourself anyway?

[mikeburnfire]

I'm probably wasting my time putting all this effort into this game, but you guys are going to need all the help you can get tomorrow.

scotmany12 is town. He defended me when he should have lynched me. Nobody cry "WIFOM" because it's stupid for scum to sacrifice good play for a gambit like that, and scot isn't the type from what I've seen of him.

MacavityLock is likely town. He's participated in the game and made cases against me. No matter how flawed those cases may be, it shows he's actually trying to find scum.

Raging Rabbit is unknown, though I agree with Izzy that he looks more like foolish town than scum. Rabbit hasn't participated in the game. Even though he recently stopped lurking, his play sucks. He claims Izzy looks town, even though he has done NOTHING townish lately. He tries to justify his vote on scotman with a seriously flawed argument. He accepts the reasons for voting me without contest, comments on a few of the other high-profile players, then intentionally avoids giving his opinion on other players. All these reasons put together lead me to believe that he is just an incredibly stubborn townie who takes the easy way out and doesn't bother straining himself to get info on the players who aren't in the spotlight.

DizzyIzzyb13 is terrible. He has played absolutely, positively terrible. No scumhunting at all in the slightest. Essentially refuses to play the game. However... *heavy breath* .... he could be a townie. The worst townie I've ever seen, but it's possible. He could just be stuck on me because of a deep-rooted OMGUS feeling. That aside, way WAY too many people have declared him "obvious town" even though he is most definitely not. I would say he is scum.

Thestatusquo is most probably scum. He's done almost no scumhunting this game and has instead chosen to argue about smaller things such as why pbpa's are bad or pointing out different types of logical fallacies without giving his opinion on the person. I would expect more of him. His steadfast resolve to Izzy's lynch gives me pause, as that the only hunting he's done all game. Whether this actual scumhunting or severe distancing I'm not sure.

dahill is possibly scum. I like the way he thinks things out, but I don't like the reasons he gave for voting me (IE "I agree with half of MBF's posts, but he looks wishy-washy"). I also don't like how he's picked the three easiest targets as his fantasy scumteam draft and then uses bad logic to make it work (IE "The scum are bussing one partner and attacking the other")

CKD is unknown. He's been absent for long periods at a time. He seems to be working at this game when he is here, at least more than others. If scum, he's likely to be scum with Karne and unlikely to be scum with TSQ.

Gorrad is unknown, though I would lean town. He has made some unpopular arguments, but I tend to find myself agreeing with them more often then not. Even the neighbor-scum arguments and metas, while not particularly grounded in theory, have merit that nobody will acknowledge. However, his logic about all the scum being on my wagon is flawed, and he should know better. Also, tunnelvision.

Citizen Karne has worked on that pbpa, but he also has shown that he isn't paying attention. Also speculates on the Izzy-Gorrad-MBF scumteam, which is just stupid. Possible scum.

In the end, I'm almost positive that at least one of TSQ and Izzy is scum, if not both. I've got a headache, so I'll do more later if I have time.

[mikeburnfire]

Upon closer inspection of Karne, I'm going to change my stance from possible scum to probable town. While his behavior has been suspicious, his interactions with other players leave very few combinations for a 3-man scum team. If he is scum, it's with Rabbit and Izzy. I'm willing to bet that the scum are among these 6 people:

Raging Rabbit
DizzyIzzyb13
Thestatusquo
dahill
CKD
Gorrad

If Izzy is scum like I anticipate, I would rule out Gorrad and dahill as his partners, leaving two of (TSQ, Rabbit, CKD).

[mikeburnfire]

Yeah, but it took most of the town as well, and I don't see Izzy as more to blame for it than to next guy, if anything Gorrad is. So I don't get why you singled her out on this

Crywolf tried to push it. I'm not saying Gorrad's clean, but Crywolf is at fault as well.

being neighbors with archon is a non-factor here.

Actually, it's not. It's why he was lynched.

Are you being intentionally dense? I was talking about posting my townreads, everyone I actually suspect I already listed.

So you have no comment whatsoever on Karne, dahill, Mac, or TSQ? You don't think any of them is scummier than another? We've already heard the same old arguments against Gorrad, me, and Scot, so I would like to know what your opinion of the

others

would be.

1) Izzy is pushing a relevant suspect that's most likely gonna be lynched and therefore will be held accountalbe for her actions tomorrow, which is only a good move if you're scum as well and even then her actions don't feel like bussing.

Are you promising to lynch Izzy for me once I'm dead and come up town?

2) I don't feel Izzy's intentionally trying to lay low.

Izzy hasn't presented a single case on ANYBODY. All he's done is try to defend himself and cower behind other peoples' bandwagons.

3) Izzy has other redeeming factors. Namely, her predecessors' claim and her wagon sucking hard.

While the claim is disptuable, I will admit that the early bandwagon on

her

was based on loose ground. However, the wagon now is different from the wagon then.

You keep mentioning that her behavior since replacing in seem 'genuine town', but when pressed on that you don't talk about her behavior. You talk about the weak bandwagon on her from early in the game. But just because somebody makes a poor case against her early in the game doesn't stop her from actually being scum, especially if she hasn't even done anything town-ish.

[mikeburnfire]

Holy shit.

[mikeburnfire]

Well, first of all, mad props to scotman. I still think the case on Gorrad was weak, but you can't argue with results. However, this proves scotman is innocent, like I've been insisting, so I feel good about that.

is this just me or is Gorrad totally letting MBF that he is a traitor in his very first post of the game?

Nice catch. It does certainly seem that he's trying to drop hints to somebody.

I like the way he thinks things out, but I don't like the reasons he gave for voting me (IE "I agree with half of MBF's posts, but he looks wishy-washy").

To start, those are not the reasons I gave for voting you.

1 Ok I can agree on that
2 This accusation has no basis at all and is pure and simple trying to outguess the mod.
3 same as I just said above. there's no way we can know for sure so this means
4 Ok I can kind of agree to this one too.
5 this, to me, just looks like wishy washy scum who wants to lynch izzy but not take the blame for it

Case in point.

Now Gorrad being, a mafia traitoror, could have been pushing for Izzy's lynch under the guise of trying to get her to "kill" her, which would have recruited him I guess. However, considering the way he pushed it, and the tenacity with which he did it leads me to believe that this goes beyond distancing. I hate to admit it, but this looks good for Izzy.

unvote, vote TSQ

This is the only thing TSQ has said about Gorrad:

Thestatusquo - I don't like him. I don't think that has a big effect on allignment, though. And he's been gone for weeks.

Seems a little defensive to me. Not much, but a good place to switch my vote for now.

Now, Gorrad being scum would, I suppose, clear scotman, and to a lesser extent dahill and Izzy, leaving curiouskarmadog, Raging Rabbit, MacavityLock, Citizen Karne, Thestatusquo.

More later.

[mikeburnfire]

Well, I'm a dead townie. Kill TSQ tomorrow. He's followed in line with Gorrad and just ended the day prematurely. That, and all the other reasons I listed earlier indicate scum.

[mikeburnfire]

Really? Well, let's have a lengthy discussion about why I think he is.

Oh wait, we can't. I'm dead.

[mikeburnfire]

Like I said earlier, the three scum are most likely among

Raging Rabbit
DizzyIzzyb13
Thestatusquo
dahill
CKD
Gorrad

Gorrad has been proven scum, and dahill seems townish to me. If Izzy somehow ends up town, the remaining scum are among [CKD, TSQ, Rabbit]

[mikeburnfire]

By the way, notice how TSQ quickly hammered me on very poor grounds, then went back and tried to justify his vote using dahill's logic.

[mikeburnfire]

Enjoy my death while you can, idiots.

[mikeburnfire]

Horray. It's finally over. Good game, scum. I'm not really surprised that ckd was scum, but dahill was very convincing. Gorrad too, I suppose. And again, nice kill Sensfan.

Thanks for modding, Shanba.

[mikeburnfire]

Good game all! I wish I could have played more of it. Also, nice call Scot. I honestly thought I was cruising along pretty nicely until you up and off'd me.

Thanks. Didn't do much help though. We pretty much blew it.

Yeah, your actions were the silver lining in this sh*t-cloud.