Mini 754 - Frogs Mafia Game, Set and Match.

[Thestatusquo]

Vote scot.

Claim or die.

[Thestatusquo]

Why is scot not dead yet?

[Thestatusquo]

Dear crywolf, please answer the following questions:

Why do you feel its a good idea to remove accountability from your vote?

If the dice had landed on you, would you have voted yourself?

If so, why? If not, why not?

In 50 words or more please summarize why you feel that
a) Random voting in the manner you do is helpful to the town, b) why it is optimum play for you, and c) What you think would happen if everyone did it?


Answer this in your next post or expect the first non random vote of the game to be on you.

[Thestatusquo]

Uh, thats actually a completely untrue categorization of my play. I am far more similar to players such as yosarian2 and glork in terms of style.

[Thestatusquo]

Dear crywolf, please answer the following questions:

Why do you feel its a good idea to remove accountability from your vote?

Instead of angering someone, I just used dice. (For sometimes they are quiet right)

If the dice had landed on you, would you have voted yourself? If so, why? If not, why not?

If I had rolled a d12 dice and it landed on myself, then yes, but i only rolled a d11.

In 50 words or more please summarize why you feel that
a) Random voting in the manner you do is helpful to the town, b) why it is optimum play for you, and c) What you think would happen if everyone did it?

a) I have no idea how it effects the town, for I have never used it before. B) Its a truly random vote, and c) I don’t know, though I could see the game would be much more boring.

Answer this in your next post or expect the first non random vote of the game to be on you.

And one question to you, how is my TRULY random vote worthy of an non-random one?

1) Generally, avoiding the ire of other players is something scum want to do more than townies. Also, I've never seen anyone upset by being random voted.

2) Ok, so your vote wasn't truly random.


3) Well, generally the way it effects the town is that it removes responsibility for your actions from you. (I didn't do it, the dice did it) which makes it harder for the town to attack the random vote, and by extension, you. This makes it harder for the town to leave the RVS, which to me, makes it a pretty anti town move. As for B, I didn't ask you what it was, I asked why you thought it was optimum strategy, because generally I think it's piss poor strategy for town. What would happen is that no one would take any actions that could be read, and we would never leave the RVS d1.

As to your question, I am of the firm opinion that voting via dice is an anti town action. Now, that doesn't make it a scum tell, but it does make it a possible scum tell, which makes me perfectly willing to vote for it if I think the person using it is aware of that fact, and purposefully using the vote to remove responsibility from themselves, and slow the game down. However, in general I am pretty satisfied with how you answered my questions, so I'm pretty content to change tacts here.

Rabbit:

Please answer the following questions:

1) Why did you think my questions were so important that you had to make sure they were answered?

2) What made you think they were likely to be unanswered if you didn't vote to back them up?

3) How could you possibly learn anything from a player from me simply asking him questions. Why wouldn't you vote after he answered them, as opposed to before?

4) What do you think of gorrads play so far?

[Thestatusquo]

FoS: Gorrad

Consider that my 'random vote'.

Is there a reason why you FoS instead of vote for someone?

I don't usually vote unless to hammer someone. I've random voted in the past, but all-in-all, I feel uncomfortable voting for someone before a hammer unless for a VERY good reason.

Can you list for me three ways in which that action is anti town and three ways in which it is pro town?

[Thestatusquo]

Just two things to note about that, and keep in mind I am drunk so take them with a grain of salt:

1) I was sk in that game, so you can't really discern anything about my alignment from that game.

2) I have no clue why I haven't been scummy nominated for best SK for that game. I caught all the scum, and then pulled the wool completely over the rest of the towns eyes for the win. That was like the penultimate of scum play. I'm actually kind of miffed about lack of nomination from that game.

All ranting aside, all that shows is that I'm capable of being helpful and questioning as scum (although not directly as mafia, which is important because I tend to play SK like a town aligned player until I go for the kill) I'm not sure why you brought it up, although it was fun to reread my pwnage of farside.

Did you forget what role I was in that game?

[Thestatusquo]

Guys, crywolf is pretty clearly town.

[Thestatusquo]

Guys, crywolf is pretty clearly town.

I wouldn't go that far, but focusing on the way she is random voting as much as you are, Gorrad and ckd, is foolish. If her meta is consistent, it's just a playstyle choice. If her meta is inconsistent, then we might have something to talk about. Even then, though, I really look at that as a null-tell. I've heard a few passable arguments about why it is detrimental to the town or possibly a way for scum to avoid some sort of Freudian slip in random voting that could hurt them later on, but even if you subscribe to those theories it is such a small thing that I hardly think it warrants this much discussion.

Pretty sure I asked questions and then was satisfied with the answers. I would hardly call that "focusing on it." Are you even reading the thread?

[Thestatusquo]

Answers to my questions make me satisfied about the dice roll thing, and in addition, her emotional responses feel more like annoyed townie than angry scum.

[Thestatusquo]

It was confusing, because you said "You" directly after talking about me, without giving a new subject before hand, so it makes sense to interpret the you as directed at me.

[Thestatusquo]

Just two things to note about that, and keep in mind I am drunk so take them with a grain of salt:

1) I was sk in that game, so you can't really discern anything about my alignment from that game.

2) I have no clue why I haven't been scummy nominated for best SK for that game. I caught all the scum, and then pulled the wool completely over the rest of the towns eyes for the win. That was like the penultimate of scum play. I'm actually kind of miffed about lack of nomination from that game.

All ranting aside, all that shows is that I'm capable of being helpful and questioning as scum (although not directly as mafia, which is important because I tend to play SK like a town aligned player until I go for the kill) I'm not sure why you brought it up, although it was fun to reread my pwnage of farside.

Did you forget what role I was in that game?

vote: thestatusquo

Why would you get this overly critical about someone bringing up something clearly pro-town? Imagine:

"hey, check it out, I saw this game where someone was playing exactly the same way as another game where they were the sk, there's a chance we could be onto something here."

Is that not a pro-town thing to do?

Hiding much?

First of all, the context of him bringing it up was not clear. Since he said he didn't have problems with my play before, I was assuming that he was saying I always play like this, in which case I was pointing out a logical flaw by pointing out that I was a SK in that game.

Secondly, how the fuck am I hiding something? I was the one who came out and said I was SK in this game, and therefore all it did is show that I am capable of playing helpfully as SK. The conclusion I drew was a reason to doubt a pro town read on me.

How the fuck is that "hiding" something? In fact, all I did was give reasons why you SHOULDN'T have a pro town read on me.

Your logic makes no sense at all.

[Thestatusquo]

The more I read it, the more to me it looks like haterade was just looking for a random thing to attack, and not actually reading the thread with an eye towards scum hunting. His logic here is SERIOUSLY wonky.

Vote: Haterade

I would like to stress that this is not based on his vote for me, but rather on how he appears to be approaching the thread.

[Thestatusquo]

Kloud, it's possible that she could be using "appeals to emotion" but it really doesn't feel that way. I've played this game for a while, and at this point I'm pretty good at recognizing when someone is being disingenuous. I'm not asking anyone to follow me into the pits of hell on this one, but at this point in the game I think crywolf is much more likely to be town than scum.

Now, of course I could be wrong, mate. I've been convinced of my wrongness many times before, but at this point the attacks on her seem unconvincing to me, especially considering her answers to my questions, which seemed completely spot on with what I would expect a town player to say if they don't realize how bad for the town dice roll voting is.

[Thestatusquo]

Just two things to note about that, and keep in mind I am drunk so take them with a grain of salt:

1) I was sk in that game, so you can't really discern anything about my alignment from that game.

2) I have no clue why I haven't been scummy nominated for best SK for that game. I caught all the scum, and then pulled the wool completely over the rest of the towns eyes for the win. That was like the penultimate of scum play. I'm actually kind of miffed about lack of nomination from that game.

All ranting aside, all that shows is that I'm capable of being helpful and questioning as scum (although not directly as mafia, which is important because I tend to play SK like a town aligned player until I go for the kill) I'm not sure why you brought it up, although it was fun to reread my pwnage of farside.

Did you forget what role I was in that game?

vote: thestatusquo

Why would you get this overly critical about someone bringing up something clearly pro-town? Imagine:

"hey, check it out, I saw this game where someone was playing exactly the same way as another game where they were the sk, there's a chance we could be onto something here."

Is that not a pro-town thing to do?

Hiding much?

First of all, the context of him bringing it up was not clear. Since he said he didn't have problems with my play before, I was assuming that he was saying I always play like this, in which case I was pointing out a logical flaw by pointing out that I was a SK in that game.

Secondly, how the fuck am I hiding something? I was the one who came out and said I was SK in this game, and therefore all it did is show that I am capable of playing helpfully as SK. The conclusion I drew was a reason to doubt a pro town read on me.

How the fuck is that "hiding" something? In fact, all I did was give reasons why you SHOULDN'T have a pro town read on me.

Your logic makes no sense at all.

You sure tried to make it sound like you were inherently protown in that post in that game, despite not being town at all.

Because you responded to a legitimate protown point (I didn't find the original context confusing in the least, but that's just me) with a whole giant clarification schpiel about how using that game to justify your context for this game isn't right because you were the SK and you can't configure alignment based off of that (yeah right...that's total BS).

In other words, you were distancing yourself from that logic using a flawed and nitpicky system; I considered it overreacting and overdefensive.

Read my post again, and pleeeeease point out to me where I claim to be protown because of it. Please.

Like, you're not making any sense. The conclusion I draw is that I am NOT pro town because of that game. You're trying to attribute to me the exact opposite position that I took, and then attacking me for it.

Seriously, please show me in that post where I claim to be pro town because of it?

[Thestatusquo]

Actually, he didn't SAY "where he was a sk"

HENCE WHY I SAID THAT THE CONTEXT WAS CLEAR, AND WHY I POINTED OUT THAT I WAS SK IN THAT GAME, AND ASKED HIM IF HE FORGOT WHAT ROLE I WAS.

Are you fucking dense? Is you M/V very high? Holy shit. I was specifically warning people AGAINST having pro town reads on me. Like, it's literally the exact opposite of what you're saying it is.

Ughhh.

[Thestatusquo]

The context wasn't clear, in the yelling part. Excuse me for the typo.

[Thestatusquo]

Here's the conclusion, directly from the post you're attacking.

All ranting aside, all that shows is that I'm capable of being helpful and questioning as scum

How in the name of Allah is that claiming to be pro town? It's exactly the OPPOSITE!

[Thestatusquo]

You still haven't explained how me explaining how I don't seem protown because of that game is me claiming to be protown.

Please do so.

[Thestatusquo]

Because he DIDN'T give context, dude. He just pointed to the game.

I wasn't disagreeing with his context, because he didn't give any.

I WAS THE ONE WHO POINTED OUT I WAS SK.


The post said "I was SK in that game, so all it proves is that you should doubt pro town reads on me."

How is that even CLOSE to "Implicitly defining my innocence"

Like... It's not EVEN CLOSE.

[Thestatusquo]

Because he DIDN'T give context, dude. He just pointed to the game.

I wasn't disagreeing with his context, because he didn't give any.

I WAS THE ONE WHO POINTED OUT I WAS SK.

I thought it was scummy that you had to stand on the soapbox and tell us that for ourselves instead of letting us come to our own judgement.

The post said "I was SK in that game, so all it proves is that you should doubt pro town reads on me."

How is that even CLOSE to "Implicitly defining my innocence"

Like... It's not EVEN CLOSE.

I have explained this already, and you have yet to counter it, instead just saying that it's not even close.

Um... Its not a case of judgment, because it's not subjective. You don't have to judge that I was a SK, I WAS a SK. It's not effecting anyones judgment to give them true information before they read the game.

And second you have NOT explained it. I am directly attacking your explanation. You have said I was "Implicitely defending my innocence" And have not stated WHY, or how that makes ANY SENSE given the fact that what I was actually doing was talking about how I was guilty in that game.

Your point, as it now stands is this "TSQ made a post in which he tried to effect our judgment about whether or not he was actually a SK in a game, when he should have let us find out if we believed he was a SK on our own. THEN he pretended to be town by saying he was scummy in that game so that we would think he was town... IMPLICITELY"

Like, thats exactly what you're arguing. Does it make sense to you? If you can't see how the above paragraph is complete crap, then please get your head examined.

Secondly, if you think I'm mischaracterizing your argument at all, please point out where and how.

[Thestatusquo]

1) Why would creating discussion about how I can be helpful as anti-town benefit me as scum? That's whats making no sense about what you're saying, right? Mafia is a game of motivations. I just simply don't see a motivation for a scum player to say "By the way, I think you should doubt pro town reads on me." If you see one, please point it out to me. This is not to say that it clears me- It doesn't- but in order to attack someone you should be able to say why their actions are necessarily more likely to come from a scum player than a town player. That's the definition of "scummy."

2) I ask you the same question about my questioning. Do you think creating discussion is good for the town or good for the scum? Do you think my questioning created discussion? Do you think it moved us out of the random voting stage? Answer these questions to yourself, and then try to think of the scum motivation for the action. I mean, like, you throw terms like "scum" around, without thinking what they mean. In order for an action to be scummy, or "weird" as you put it, you would have to attack it by claiming that it is more likely to come from a scum player than a town player. Thats the basis for the whole game. If you can do that with this, then I would be very surprised. Again, I'm not saying this clears me, but I would argue that what I did was distinctly helpful to the town, and I think you would be hard pressed to find a reason why it wasn't.

3) I wasn't combative at all! The most combative I got in that post was ranting about how I hadn't been scummy nominated for that game, and that wasn't even directed at the OP. He did not provide the information that I was SK in the game, so I felt compelled to provide it in case people misunderstood his post to say that he felt I was being pro-town. This is because he had said earlier that he didn't have any problem with my play. Nowhere in that post do I attack him. Nowhere in that post do I FOS him. Nowhere in that post do I vote him. I simply point out an important piece of information that was missing from his post, and ask if he forgot about it. Re-read the post again, please point out what is combative about it?

[Thestatusquo]

People who need to post more:

mikeburnfire
Gorrad
dahill1
curiouskarmadog
Raging Rabbit
crywolf20084
scotmany12
MacavityLock

Seriously, guys, the activity in this game is abysmal. I really don't like how crywolf has drifted back into the shadow now that the discussion has shifted off of her.

[Thestatusquo]

Actually, you I just realized you have 10 posts, which while great is not horrible compared to some of the worst offenders on my list. Your posts just seem to have very little content, generally, which is probably why I felt like you weren't contributing enough.

Don't just wait for a player who is inactive to answer questions. Be proactive, comment on shit. Get reactions. No one is going to play this game for you, and I'm not going to give you a free pass for not playing it either.

Answer me this:

Haterade: More likely to be scum or town, at this stage of the game. Why?
Thestatusquo: More likely to be scum or town at this stage of the game. Why?

What do you think of my original post in question? Did you think I was being combative? Why/why not?

If you think that my play in this game exactly mirrors my SK play, why haven't you voted me?

[Thestatusquo]

1) That's the point, though haterade. In fact, I specifically said "this doesn't clear me." But you're the one MAKING THE ATTACK. If I prove that what you're attacking is a null tell, then I have disproved your attack. The burden of proof is on you to show why my actions are more likely to come from scum than from town. At the point where you say it's a null tell, you're admitting you just attacked me for nothing.

2) Same response. If your attack basically boils down to "Yes, what you did was good for the town because it took us out of the random voting stage and created discussion, BUT you could have done it as scum to look like a townie" then you don't have an attack. Otherwise you would attack every action that every townie ever took.

As to the non answering questions thing: Do you think I have been avoiding discussing and stating my own opinions this game? I think I have done the exact opposite. I think I have been probably the most vocal player, and have stated my opinions very clearly.

Heh, it's very possible that it was because I was drunk. Believe me, you'll know when I'm combative. That wasn't combative.

The main problem with your case is that it boils down to "Yes, town is more likely to these things, BUT SCUM CAN DO THEM TOO IN ORDER TO LOOK TOWN."

Which is basically non-sensical, because it would mandate you attack every player who ever did anything good for the town, JUST IN CASE.

[Thestatusquo]

Back with laptop.

[Thestatusquo]

vote: Izzy

As much as she's awesome, her response sounds way too much like "the mod told me that ducks are town aligned as a way to safe claim therefore I claimed duck and now I am going to gloat it over you as much as possible to look townie."

[Thestatusquo]

I didn't claim. I took over after Cayke claimed.

How does this at all change my point?

[Thestatusquo]

I am aware of that, however, my point is referring to how your ROLE played the game, and not how you or the person you replaced played the game.

Remember, you have access to the self-same information in the role PM as cayke had, and therefore it does not require a significant amount of effort or thought for you to see "Huh, cayke claimed this, and now its become reinforced, so I should seize that opportunity."

I don't see how my attack requires continuous thought process at all.

[Thestatusquo]

I still think it's a point in Izzy's favor. The duck flavor clearly is consistant, even if they're not all vanillas, and Izzy could've only known this if she's either a duck or scum told about the duck flavor in advance. While the second is entirely possible, it's still pretty conditional and therefore makes her less likely scum imo.

I disagree. Mafia is a game of motivations. To me, the way both Izzy and the person played that information is far more consistent with how I would expect to see a scum aligned player play the role than a town aligned player, and therefore I do not think it makes her less likely to be scum. Hence, the vote.

[Thestatusquo]

Ok, so I've done a lot of digging on izzy, and here's what I feel.

Here's a lot of problems I have with the claim.

1) She was one of the main driving forces in getting archon lynched. This makes no sense to me, because if I were masons with someone, I probably wouldn't even mention them unless forced to. The claim that "She didn't have alignment confirmation." and therefore wanted to lynch him makes little sense, as scum mason is a very rarely used role. Even if like, they were scum masons, that makes izzy more likely to be scum, because the behavior of crywolf/izzy (i.e. aggressively attacking one they know to be pro town) is behavior that fits far more with the scum side of the mason pair than the town, and since we know archon was town....

2) As I said, the way the claim was bandied about by izzy as being proof positive of her townieness to me just screams wrong. It reads almost 100% exactly like a scum who had a little piece of info about the setup, and used it to their advantage, wanting to draw attention to that fact. "Look at me, I knew ducks were town, isn't that great, don't you think that makes me look like a townie? Shit, yeah it does." is not something I have ever heard from an actual townie yet, in almost 4 years of playing online mafia. Town players tend not to assert their own innocence, except in their own defense. To draw attention to the fact that you're probably more likely to be town than scum when you are not being attacked is psychologically something that scum are way more likely to do than town, because as a town player you are not thinking about proving your townieness unless you're attacked for it, whereas a scum player is always thinking about whether or not they are looking like a townie.

Confirm vote: Izzy

Seriously.

[Thestatusquo]

TSQ says some valid stuff in point 2, but I still disagree with his conclusion.

All my MS time is currently spent finally finishing another game, once it's over (a few days at most) there should be plenty of time for me to catch up here and be able to comment on more than just Izzy. I'm surprised she seems the main topic of discussion, franktly. I'd like to see this case on MBF, for one.

WHY?!

Seriously, what the hell about izzy makes you think she's town?

[Thestatusquo]

Well, not going to speak for dahill, but I just gave a very detailed argument as to why scum players would be psychologically much more likely to say such things.

[Thestatusquo]

I would expect them to make detailed arguments responding to arguments against them. In addition, I would expect them to not even THINK about it, unless under pressure.

Generally what I expect town players to do is scumhunt. To me, whether or not people perceive of me as town is something so far from my conciousness when I am town, because I am much more concerned with other peoples alignment than I am with my own.

[Thestatusquo]

Why? From your perspective, of assuming izzy is town, scotmany seems like the most likely to be town, due to his complete, utter, and unparalleled defense of izzy.

What makes you want to vote him?

[Thestatusquo]

I guess I could go with an MBF lync if necessary, but I really think we'd be better off lynching Gorrad scum.

I'll bet you could. Anyone other than you, right?

Also, Dahill, how would you expect a pro-town player to react to having their case proven wrong? Just curious.

[Thestatusquo]

That wasn't a case, so much as it was a pbpa.

I hate pbpas. They're a really good way to fill a lot of space and look impressive while not actually saying anything. I would have much preferred if you had made points, and then cited specific posts to back them up. I don't have the time nor energy to read a very potentially biased summary of every post MBF has ever made.

[Thestatusquo]

My impression of pbpa is that you are looking for the person you are doing them on to be scum, and that should be taken into account. I was very nitpicky.

MBF, what you said is nice, but I'd still like a claim.

Wrong.

If you go into a PBPA with a preconceived notion of that persons alignment, then you defeat the purpose of the PBPA, and basically reduce it to the definition of confirmation bias. If you enter a PBPA thinking that a player is scum, than you will be likely to upplay anything that makes them look scummy, and downplay anything that makes them look towny, and vice versa. A PBPA should be a tool to figure out how you feel about a player, not a method of attack.

[Thestatusquo]

My impression of pbpa is that you are looking for the person you are doing them on to be scum, and that should be taken into account. I was very nitpicky.

MBF, what you said is nice, but I'd still like a claim.

Wrong.

If you go into a PBPA with a preconceived notion of that persons alignment, then you defeat the purpose of the PBPA, and basically reduce it to the definition of confirmation bias. If you enter a PBPA thinking that a player is scum, than you will be likely to upplay anything that makes them look scummy, and downplay anything that makes them look towny, and vice versa. A PBPA should be a tool to figure out how you feel about a player, not a method of attack.

Again, we will agree to disagree. I've always used them to make cases, not get a feel for the player. If I'm trying to get a feel for someone, sure I'll analyze all their posts, but I won't post anything unless I find something noteworthy. If I think someone to be scum, then I'll provide my thoughts (which believe them to be scum) on every single post they have made. The way I go about doing a pbpa defeats the purpose of what you use them for, but not what

I

use them for.

So did you miss my arguments for WHY Pbpa's are a bad tool to use cases? You completely strawmanned me. My argument wasn't anything close to as retarded as "lol, you use them for something other than you say you have." My argument was that PBPAs are inherently ineffective and useless for making cases. This is not a "agree to disagree" situation. I made an argument for why your case making method is de facto unreliable, and you essentially said "Meh, whatevs." This is not an argument about what you or I DO use PBPAs for, but an argument about what they OUGHT to be used for. Notice the difference between a prescriptive and a descriptive statement there.

Your case is invalid until you defeat my arguments.

[Thestatusquo]

Listen, because I think you're just not getting this, I'm going to lay it out in easy steps for you.

1) The purpose of making cases is to convince other people, not for your own edification.
2) Because this is true, you want to maximize the accountability of the case, in order for other players to check up on it and fact check it for accuracy.
3) PBPA DE FACTO make it harder to check up on the accuracy of the case, because of the need for players to check up on EVERY SINGLE POST THE PLAYER HAS MADE in order to check for your bias.
4) Comparatively, as opposed to other methods of presenting cases, for instance making points, and then citing examples of those points for other players to fact check, PBPAs are not transparent at all, because they ask us to rely on your own CONFIRMATION BIAS rather than looking at the case objectively and making up our minds.
5) Players are not going to trust you on face, and generally don't even read PBPAs from my experience.
6) Therefor, PBPA are not effective ways of making a case.


I tend to get very suspicious of players making PBPAs because they're very good at looking impressive, without serving a humungous amount of game function. Basically, they're giving the appearance of scumhunting without actually doing so.

[Thestatusquo]

Citizen Karne, TSQ is right about your pbpa. It's unbelievably slanted against me. You went through all my posts, tried to find everything that could be construed as suspicious, and put it all together as evidence that I'm scum. It's tunnelvisioning, and it's not good. You're just doing what I've been doing. It's very hypocritical. Like so:

Watch yourself, Dr. Straw. I didn't make any comments on whether or not the case was slanted. In fact, I didn't even read it for the exact reason I stated. I do not have the time to go through every single one of MBFs posts, and look for your bias in your description of them. His case could be completely even handed for all I know, my point was that its not something which I see as actionable, Not that its biased or incorrect. Don't attribute a position to me that isn't mine.

I still think Izzy is the lynch for today, and I don't like how this MBF thing has developed, sort of out of left field.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't think you're not scum, again, don't put words in my mouth. I don't necessarily like how your wagon has sprung up, but that's quite a few kippers short of a dozen in terms of thinking you're town.

To the extent that I believe Izzy is MORE likely to be scum than you are, I attacked her several times. The response I've gotten from the rest of the town is basically "meh, whatevs." And to the extent that I think Karne's case is defacto bull shit, I have attacked it, but I am certainly not getting more vehement without a distinct pro town read on you that I do not have.

[Thestatusquo]

That doesn't make sense. If TSQ and I are suspicious of Izzy and scot thinks we're town..then how would that make him think that Izzy is town as well?

What? I'm saying it's odd that the people he thinks are town think Izzy is scum, and that Izzy isn't on his list of people he thinks is town. I had previously gotten the impression that he thought Izzy was town.

I never once said Izzy was town. I said the case against here was ridiculous. There is a difference.

Did you read my case against her, because I thought it was pretty nonridiculous.

[Thestatusquo]

CKD, that was idiotic.

My whole point was that CK didn't MAKE a case, and therefore can't access it as such. The potential points he makes, while conceivably valid and inherently INVALID, because I do not have the time NOR the energy to read every single post MBF has made, and then read what CK has to say about it to make sure it's true. How can you say "Why can't you just cross check them for accuracy?" When my ENTIRE ARGUMENT was that it is unreasonable for CK to expect me to do so. I asked him for a listing of points, with SOME referenced posts so I could determine how I feel about the case, but until he does that, in the middle of midterms, I am not capable of evaluating his position.

My attack was not just random game theory, but rather a justified reason as to why his case was not persuasive (nor was capable of BEING persuasive) to me. At the point where he wants to make a case which I can access rather than posting random filler shit that I cannot verify, given the time frame I have devoted to playing mafia, I will ignore it. (Ignore it being used in this sense to mean not use it to formulate my opinion on MBF, rather than ignore it i.e. not talk about it, which I clearly haven't done.)

My opinions on mbf have been pretty clearly elucidated. I see no reason to hang him over izzy, who I have posted a rather detailed attack on. Absent of a case on him which convinces me, I will stay on Izzy. This does not mean, as he claimed erroneously, that I think he is more likely to be town than scum. I don't. I just think he's about 50-50 and Izzy is MORE likely to be scum than town. In addition, it seems to me like a lot of people have pounced on MBF and displayed quite a bit of tunnel vision, with very little provocation, which I find disconcerting. What is it about this position that causes me to "rise in your suspicions?"

[Thestatusquo]

"While conceivably valid ARE inherently invalid"

Apologies for the typo.

[Thestatusquo]

In other words, TSQ is either too lazy to read my pbpa or too stubborn to treat it as a case. Probably both. :/

No, my point was pretty much that it is unreasonable for you to expect other players in the game to spend hours of work just to fact check your opinion on one player.

Generally, if you think a player is scum, you try to convince other people that he is scum. I told you your case was unpersuasive to me, and why. Then I told you how you could very easily make a case that would be potentially persuasive to me. You have chosen to ignore this, and attack me personally instead. That's fine, I can deal with your attacks, but it doesn't seem like a particularly townie reaction, especially if you DO think mbf is scum.

*shrug*

[Thestatusquo]

and for shits and giggles..CK can you post 3 reasons (and provide posts) for why you think MBF is scum...when he does that TSQ can you address it?

Absolutely. I've made this request of him like 3 times for this express purpose.

[Thestatusquo]

Will respond to CK later tonight, but izzy, what the hell is "Potentially scummy behavior?"

You can't just say someone is being "potentially scummy" without saying what it is that makes them "potentially scummy"

[Thestatusquo]

No one has made a case on me? What the hell are you talking about? Stop poisoning my well...

[Thestatusquo]

unvote

Izzy is unlikely to be scum given this.

[Thestatusquo]

unvote, vote MBF

OMGUS hammer.

[Thestatusquo]

Word? Don't you know about the bird? Well, everyone knows that the bird is a word.

Aaaaaaand enough of that froggy bull (GET IT? IT'S A PUN!).

FoS: MBF

for being a traitor to one of your kin.

On the other hand, Michigan is an land populated entirely by criminals, as everyone knows, and criminals are used to not being trusted, as CW is not trusted by you, so not only can he not choose the wine in front of you, but your suspicion of him is founded on solid evidence.

UnFoS

.

TSQ is probably town by virtue of being totally unhelpful. He's like Flameaxe that way.

is this just me or is Gorrad totally letting MBF that he is a traitor in his very first post of the game?

This is pretty damning. Though, it's possible he was just breadcrumbing traitor in general, and not TO MBF, but the fact that it includes the FOS which will get a players attention, it seems most likely to be directed at mbf

[Thestatusquo]

Well, I'm a dead townie. Kill TSQ tomorrow. He's followed in line with Gorrad and just ended the day prematurely. That, and all the other reasons I listed earlier indicate scum.

Ended the day pre-maturely? There's a deadline in less than a week, you silly lummox.