Newbie 745 - Town wins!

[Family:Kostic]

/confirm

[Family:Kostic]

Well I was concidering the no lynch but this is not a turbo and there should be ample time to stimulate conversation. There really is no real way of voting with any solid ideas of who could be scum at this point... Gonna have to use my instinct as best I can.. Time to read up on tactics me thinks!

Got a bit of work to do today, paving the courtyard & soccer training later on. Not really a lazy one.

[Family:Kostic]

Well, Over 12 hours gone and still a few are silent..
Off to bed soon and wont be on until after 21:30 GMT so would probably be a good idea to vote using the little info I currently have..

[Family:Kostic]

Vote: Seamus2008

The unlucky one from the remaining silent two..

[Family:Kostic]

1st Game on here. Played 99 turbo games on Facebook mafia a while back, but not enough people play on that anymore to make the turbo games worth while..

@ Spinach & Broncofanmd: How long did each of you last in the previous game game with the 2 of you in it?

[Family:Kostic]

which(wish?) i had link to the last game they were in to see any suspicious links hmm

Especially if they won the game together as Mafia

[Family:Kostic]

Not happy with the contribution of Seamus2008 at all, therefore my vote will stay with him until I have solid evidence to vote otherwise.

Anybody have any evidence suggesting someone could be mafia yet? Suspicious activity of any sort..

From what I have seen, Gabe doesn't seem phased to say anything. Fearless in a way, could put him up at either end of the scale and is the most unpredictable so far imo..

He is probably the one I am most suspect of at the moment as everyone else just seems a bit cautious..
Bladewing Vorox hasn't said enough for me to judge him at all..

[Family:Kostic]

He (Seamus) hasn't even had a chance to respond yet, and we have no way of knowing whether he's lurking or if he just hasn't showed up yet.

He has not said anything for over 48 hours of play, thats more than enough chance to respond no matter if he hasn't shown up or just lurking.

As a general rule you should aim for one post every 48 hours, minimum, to keep the game moving.

Why defend him if he neglects this rule. What is the stance on replacement at this point?

As for Musafa, his actions have been very eratic but I think it is because he is overly enthusiastic to get involved in the game. For some reason I haven't seen him as scummy just yet, seems too easy a target..

[Family:Kostic]

My random vote on Seamus was in hope to get him active and defend himself but it seems to have not worked and i suspect he is yet to show up.

Unvote: Seamus2008

The way I see it, Mufasa has been overly keen throughout the entire process of getting himself into a game, posting a new thread looking for a new game and 'thanking' the mod for placing him in a game and starting it the next day.

In game he has:
Attempted to stimulate non-game relevant conversation.
Suggested Gabe was cop.
Played the newbie card on numerous occasions.
Voted & unvoted very erratically.

Other than these over-enthusiastic actions, what else makes Mufasa such 'obvious' scum? I cant't see it.

neko

, you have a lot of influence over others in this game topic it seems. You have been on Mufasa's back from the beginning basically. As an experienced player, what makes you so confident that he is Mafia?

broncofaninmd

, what suggests to you that Mufasa is 'blatantly scummy'?

hohum

, are Mufasa's responses to our concerns point to him being scummy In other words, do you plan to stick to you original random vote?

I need to be convinced.

As for you Mufasa, what are your thoughts on the most suss players at the moment?

[Family:Kostic]

From what I have seen, Gabe doesn't seem phased to say anything. Fearless in a way, could put him up at either end of the scale and is the most unpredictable so far imo..

He is probably the one I am most suspect of at the moment as everyone else just seems a bit cautious...

This is a bit of a contradiction. You say he's your most suspicious, yet you keep your vote on samus. Also, Why is gabe so suspicious? You really haven't said much about it. You've also said in pretty much the same post that he could go either way.

"Fearlessness" isn't a scum tell. It isn't a pro-town tell either. It's just a gameplay style.

I would tend to agree with you regarding seamus' game play so far, but I'm waiting until he's prodded and has a chance to respond to you.

I have previously explained why I had my vote on Seamus, in addition to the fact I had no reason to vote for anyone else. As you stated, I did think that his 'fearlessness' could place him either way, it was only an informal FomS to hopefully liven things up. I had no real tell of scumminess on anyone to go by at the time.

[Family:Kostic]

The way I see it, Mufasa has been overly keen throughout the entire process of getting himself into a game, posting a new thread looking for a new game and 'thanking' the mod for placing him in a game and starting it the next day.

In game he has:
Attempted to stimulate non-game relevant conversation.
Suggested Gabe was cop.
Played the newbie card on numerous occasions.
Voted & unvoted very erratically.

Other than these over-enthusiastic actions, what else makes Mufasa such 'obvious' scum? I cant't see it.

Fk, i have FOS you already, but this comment here just valdidates my thinking. The reasons you list here should warrant major pressure on him. I would like to know what would qualify as scummy behavior in your opinion.

I do agree that Mufasa has posted some foolish scummy looking stuff quite regularly but the manner in which he does it just seems too stupid if he is Mafia.
His errors are blatantly obvious and if he was Mafia dont you think he would attempt to be subtle and cautious to stand out a bit less? To me it just seems like he is a VT that is trying to be involved and have some fun...
No offence to Mufasa but it seems like he is the VI, surely you have seen players like this before neko? Your pressure did well to bandwagon him but hopefully there is no tunnelvision now.
The thing is that Mufasa HAS been an easy target and there possibly has been some attempted scapegoating to get him lynched? broncofaninmd put Mufasa at L-2 and has put a lot of effort in trying to get another vote onto him. Doing this means that the other mafia player will then be able to use a number of simple excuses/reasons that are on offer to jump on and get him lynched.
broncofaninmd, I also see your claims as very weak for somebody who is confident that Mufasa is scum.

What makes me think he is blantly scummy? Actually the faster question would of been to ask me what makes me think he is town.

1. He vote hops so fast, that he eliminates the sole purpose of a vote.
2. He offered to put me on lynch -2 with a "random" vote.
3. He offers a no-lynch on day one.
4. He offers strategy on one thing, then plays newbie card on others.
5. If in fact he is town, he is drawing much needed attention from scum.

You change the question to make it easier to answer first of all.
The only claim I see as solid, outside of his over-eagerness or inexperience, is #2 and could be even be due to your 1st claim, that was down to over-eagerness IMO.
Although Mufasa's answer to your Q#2 was a bit contradictory, not understanding what L-2 was then saying you used it as a tactic..?

Broncofaninmd, you have also been trying to convince the rest with numerous posts such as 88, 97, 98, 114 & 115. Questioning why others choose not to vote and subtlly placing pressure on them to do so, saying he is 'blatantly scummy' without any solid reasons..

You FoS'd me twice for not sharing your view on Mufasa's scumminess without even ever instigating a solid reason why Mufasa could be Mafia at all.

Vote:broncofaninmd

Your confidence in thinking Mufasa is Mafia lacks a lot of fact for you to be as sure as you seem to be.

[Family:Kostic]

broncofaninmd

, Sorry, an error on my post may have caused you to misinterpret part of what I was trying to say.

Although Mufasa's answer to your Q#2 was a bit contradictory, not understanding what L-2 was then saying

you

he

used it as a tactic..?

This part was more directed at Musafa.

First off Fk, I never pressured anyone to vote Mufasa. I asked why vote a player with no scummy behavior when Mufasa was acting Scummy.

I said it was subtle pressure with the questions you were asking. You can't say that the question, "Why dont you vote Mufasa" is not a form of pressure when I have already explained why I haven't voted him..

Second, your right, I am not 100% Mufasa is scum, but does that mean I withhold my vote? You voted me with out being sure im scum so if anybody is contradictory, it's you. Third, You asked every one a question about who could be mafia, then use my answer against me.

I didn't vote you because I think you are 100% scum, I voted you because you seem overly confident that Mufasa is scum (much more than others from their response to my questions) & your reasons for thinking that he is lack strength for somebody who expressed that he is 'such obvious scum'.

Then you suggest that I am scum with the hope that my scum partner would vote him. What makes you think scum haven't already voted?

I was exploring a possible tactic, things seemed to fit when I thought it through.
Mufasa as the VI, you scapegoating him as an easy target (Putting him on L-2), trying to convince others to do vote...

If I am wrong I will gladly eat my own words, but it is not unreasonable to think that it is a possibility.
Also, Mufasa never actually did put you on L-2. So the reason you initially voted him is not even convincing.

[Family:Kostic]

Personally, I doubt Seamus will come back. He probably lost interest in the game after he confirmed and opted out the only way he knew how to.. Possibly without knowledge that it partially wrecks the gafor the rest of us..

Unless he is trying to use BBB's Gambit, which I very much doubt..

If he doesn't respond in 15 hours then, being no benifit to the game, I would be all for his lynching as he is a *insert bad word*.

I hope that does not be classed as an attack on a player..

[Family:Kostic]

FK WROTE

If I am wrong I will gladly eat my own words, but it is not unreasonable to think that it is a possibility.
Also, Mufasa never actually did put you on L-2. So the reason you initially voted him is not even convincing.

FK, I never said he put me at l-2. I said he offered a random vote on me that would put me at l-2.
Also, my initial vote on him was the fact that he asked for a no lynch. If your going to argue against me, please know the facts.

It still doesn't make it convincing IMO, that's all i'm really getting at.

[Family:Kostic]

Seamus has pretty much ruined the game for me by now. I don't see any reason to wait any longer..

unvote, Vote Seamus2008

The worst player to ever attempt to play any game anywhere. Ever.

Make sure he can't ruin any other games, IMO.

[Family:Kostic]

It's not really much to go by but Gabe took the step to put Seamus onto L-1..

Otherwise, Spinach never voted for Seamus. Trying to stay out of the spotlight since you knew Seamus was townie anyway.. no need to vote right.. Just sit back and watch... Scummy action IMO.

[Family:Kostic]

IF I was scum... Why would I 'shoot Bronco during the middle of the night' if I was feuding with him, when all it would do would point the finger towards me... Just doesn't add up does it..

[Family:Kostic]

Also, I only changed vote because I had enough of Seamus' BS.

[Family:Kostic]

The way I see it, the fact that you (

Spinach

) were friendly with Bronco, and possibly knowing he was not Mafia, gives you every reason to Lynch him during the night...

Obviously, it is only WIFOM theory and should be taken with a pinch of salt as it holds no real evidence to you being or not being Scum.. Nevertheless I think you would be the type who would lynch a friend rather than an enemy in this situation..

BV

seems only to be be forced posting, contributing when he feels he really has to, obviously he has explained why he has been very cautious. But it is anyones guess whether he is telling the truth or not... I still have my doubts....

Others are hard to gague atm..
I will note some quick things though.. If they were Scum:

Neko

, as the most experienced player, would know that laying low would bring immediate suspicion to him. So he would have a

need

to be the one involved in most things in the game, as he has done..

Hohum

, Really have no idea what to think yet, don't suspect you though..

Gabe

, I have detected some subtle friendliness between you and Spinach, not sure if I think it is potential to partnership just yet. Might have to review posts.. I don't think you have pressured each other at all as yet though..

Mufasa..

I think my thoughts on mufasa is common knowledge by now..

Should get time to review events of the past week more closely tonight though.

[Family:Kostic]

Hmmmmm, well Hohum. I am yet to vote for Spinach or anyone during D2..

Also, if you read my previous posts, I have already explained why I initially voted for Seamus..

My random vote on Seamus was in hope to get him active and defend himself but it seems to have not worked and i suspect he is yet to show up.

*Post subject: 107

I then proceeded to unvote him..

It is a different issue as Seamus hadn't said anything at all where BV had at least contributed in some form..

You need to read things through a bit better before throwing votes out I think..

[Family:Kostic]

I've read you just fine. You missed the point. It's very poor reasoning.

Careless voting? Poor reasoning? I think you have just displayed them in your last 2 posts more than I have..

So you admit that

your vote

is based on WIOFMY logic, yet you

cast it

anyways even after we mislynched D1, knowing that it's going to put us in a difficult spot on D3. I don't like how careless you're being with your vote.

I never even voted, therefore your vote is partially based on something I didn't even do. The rest of the reasoning you provided for your vote was also poor IMO. If voting to try to make an inactive player more active is poor reasoning, especially as it was the first day when ppl still had Random votes, then I would like you to tell me what good reasoning could be at that stage...

It seems that you just don't want to admit wrong.. Unless you can also show that I did vote Spinach today....?

[Family:Kostic]

unvote

first of all, not because I believe the claim, but because I don't know if I trust F:K when there's a L-1 sitting here.

Maybe you should investigate that further to satisfy yourself then. I have nothing to hide and it would be good for others can see that also.

[Family:Kostic]

Hope you slide right in Kison, this has hardly been a normal game.. Lol

[Family:Kostic]

Nevertheless I think you would be the type who would lynch a friend rather than an enemy in this situation..

Why do you think Spinach is the type who would kill his friend during the night? What makes you think he is not the type who would leave his friend alive? This looks to me like you are pushing his wagon without being on it, and for a rather weak reason.

It is just the way I feel from the personality presented in his posts. Seems like he is trying to get peoples trust without giving them a real reason to do so from his posts..

Ie, they are more friendly than investigative..

[Family:Kostic]

Voting yourself is just silly. All it makes me think is that you can't be bothered looking for anyone suss..

FoS: Mufasa. This is possibly YOUR most suss action so far.

[Family:Kostic]

More votes on Kostic please!

More thought on scummy candidates please..

[Family:Kostic]

I also find

Gabe

to be much more pro-town now that you have responded well to the vote & started getting nore involved.

Thoughts:

Townie

Kison

is harder to judge at this point. He & Neko both were very interogative and on the look out for suss behavior, which is pro-town behavior, but as they have both been the most evperienced players, it is expected of them and anything otherwise would be seen as suss. So as said, I haven't seen any scummy behaviour but the pro-town behaviour can not be used as solid evidence that you are townie..

Thoughts:

Neutral

Mufasa

, I was convinced that your earlu mistakes were simply down to eagerness but the self vote is just very anti-townie to me and is giving me a lot to think about atm...

Thoughts:

Suss but not Scummy just yet.

Hohum

, You have gone under the radar a fair bit during the whole game and only een active in spurts, as an IC and the 2nd most experienced player I would expect more from you. Especially now when all you seem to be doing is probing me on weak evidence that I have already rebutted, even when you claim that Mufasa's self vote was "extremely scummy" and then proceed to say "more votes on kostic please". Where is the sense in that?

Thoughts:

Looking quite scummy of late.

Bladewing

, since you claimed, very promptly after you were voted & accused of being scummy, that you had a pro-townie power role you have gone very quiet and seem content to lay low. Your vote on Hohum was a very bold move but provided no real reasons to why you did it and has provoked no form of defence from Hohum, this makes me think that maybe it is a dummy vote to throw off any possible partnership between you two.
Having said that, it was a vote from Hohum that prompted you to claim as a Doc (putting you at L-2 after Neko's initial vote). Any pressure did not last after that as Neko unvoted as did hohum immediately after.
If I was being critical, this could also possibly be seen as a dummy pressure vote that didn't go according to plan, hence the "facepalm" and the swiftness that all votes were removed. But this is a very tricky situation to properly asses.
Something I did pick up on though was that Hohum seemed to 'guide' Bladewing through when he did place his vote on him, prompting him to "contribute more opinions" and then saying

I appreciate that you're participating now but please do more than just pressure voting. Who do you think is scummy and why?

after pressure voting Spinach with Neko & mufasa for no real reason.. Seems like a bit of guidence to me..
When Blade went through who he thought was scummy and why, it was very, VERY breif.

Thoughts:

Limited pro-town behaviour, bar the claim, and suss behaviour as pointed out. Therefore, Looking scummy..

Spinach

, you haven't gotten properly involved in much of the 'scum hunting' and have only provided breif opinions on situations, cant say I have seen much scummy behavior though.. Not sure how I feel about you not trying to defend yourself much when you were at L-1 but not sure if it is a scummy sign..
Strangely, hohum subtly did seem to come to your defence though when he 'thought' I voted you & was 'supposidy' jumping the bandwagon to lynch you. A contributing reason to the vote he still has on me... I Don't get it..

Thoughts:

suss but not scummy

So finally,

Vote: hohum

On the basis of ignoring extremely scummy behaviour to keep a vote on me with evidence that I have already rebutted.. As well as other reasons I have pointed out during my post..

[Family:Kostic]

OK Mufasa, I kind of understand where you are coming from. But why didn't you vote Neko when he was still in the game with this reason?

[Family:Kostic]

farside22, please note post subject: 286. To change votes accordingly, thanks. =]

I am going to

unvote. vote: Kison

. I really enjoy your posts, but my vote is based on what Neko had said during his time.

Thanks. All that bold I missed that.
If things don't pick up I will do a mass prod tomorrow and set a deadline.

[Family:Kostic]

Pitty Hohum had to be absent right about now, was just beginning to debate him properly.

Similar thing happened with Neko also actually..

Can't say this has been a great learning experience so far tbh..

[Family:Kostic]

Mufasa, don't you already have a vote on kison? Vote jumping is scummy..

[Family:Kostic]

I will claim if anyone not currently voting for me asks me to. Anyone who hammers before asking for a claim is scum.

On the same note, I don't see a reason for anyone to need to ask you to claim, if you feel threatened and see a need to claim then by all means..

It should never be up to a player to ask for a claim imo, any answer will be trivial in any case..

[Family:Kostic]

Also,

Unvote

. I think I have just realised something that could influence the game a lot.

Now need to re-assess a few posts..

[Family:Kostic]

Spinach's claim is really interesting, especially seeing as how there are no villagers in this game...

First of all,

looking back at this, especially as a first time player, surely Spinach would have known the correct name of his role as it was given to him in the initial email & any new player would read through the role thoroughly..

[Family:Kostic]

Second of all,

When I was going through my evaluation of Hohum

(post 283)

, I said that I felt he was sort of 'guiding' BV through a period of the game when Hohum voted BV in order to get him to contribute more.

Hohum said it was a 'pressure' vote, but he (hohum) seemed to do it because Neko was pressuring BV and starting to suspect him. (So, if Hohum followed Neko's lead, especially since he wasn't contributing a lot before that, nobody would then suspect him of not trying to effectively hunt for mafia.)

(see top of page 9. as well as posts previously and after.)

I initially suggested that Hohums vote was a 'dummy' vote to throw us off of a possible partnership between him and BV, as well as the reason above.
But then Hohum's replacement kwints said he would claim if somebody not voting for him asked

(post 329)

and got me thinking... Maybe after all that, Hohum was Cop and investigated BV during N1 and this would explain the possible 'guidence'.

Then I thought further and felt that if that was the case then Hohum would have never voted for BV in the first place and would probably have a lot more to say about the game, rather than holding a vote on me for a long stretch of time with evidence that i had already rebutted, wilst saying that actions of another player (Mufasa) were 'extremely scummy and unhelpfull'.. (Posts 267 & 268 as well as many of his previous to that.)

So, kwints. If you could, I would really like you hear your opinion on these actions, being the replacement of the player that commited them I would find your responses very helpful to my evaluation of you and your role in ths game.

Having said that, if BV's claim of Doc is in fact true then most of what I said in reguard to hohums guidence being a sign of a scummy partnership between him and BV would mean nothing (Hence my earlier thought that he may be cop)..

Therefore, much of it depends on whether you believe BV's claim, nevertheless hohum's persistence on me is still very suss on its own imo..

I would like to hear what others think of all this though..

[Family:Kostic]

Lol I wasn't role fishing.. I said that he 'could' be because of his actions just like I said there was every chance he 'couldn't' because of his actions...

Thought processes like that do occur in games like this.. I just layed the options on the table..

So, Qwints, all I want to know from you is do you think Hohum was 'helping' BV get out of trouble a bit, from what i have said? As it is a core part in my claim. Rather than fishing for a reason to vote for me with...

[Family:Kostic]

Alright first off, lets make things clear about Hohum then shall we.

In the first 3 pages of the game he made 6 posts about the game and they were all directed at Mufasa..
He then didn't post on page 4.

Then on page 5 he had 1 relevant post, attacking Me.

Page 6, post 126, was when he first started helping BV when he said,

Why just "wait"

Why not do some post analysis in the mean time?

and the only other relevant post he had there was a vote against Seamus when basically

everybody

voted him because of his claim to be mafia..

page 7 he had 2 relevant post, helping BV again by launching a very empty attack on him when saying,

You aren't supposed to out your scum partner, even for pretend.

still with no intent of probing him at all..
He also took another dig at Seamus when

everybody

was..

Page 8, he made 1 game relevant post to vote BV, straight after Neko, with no real reason of his own why he voted besides to pressure.. and again he posted some helpful stuff for him, saying..

I think you should lay your thoughts out on the table, and share with the rest of the group. It's never "too early" to share an opinion.

After thst, on page 9 he makes 5 posts (201, 202, 205, 206 & 208) all containing help for BV as well as his 'unvote' again right after Neko..
Here are the contents of his posts

201

*facepalm*
Nobody asked you to claim. We just asked you to up your contributions a little. You've basically just deprived us of an extremely useful power role because the mafia is likely to NK you now.

202

that is if you're even telling the truth.
2 votes is not a lot by any stretch.

205

Bladwing: My vote was just a pressure vote, to get you to contribute NOT to claim. You should NEVER claim until someone asks you to, and usually that's not until you're at L-1.

You have to realize in the course of this game you're going to get pressured by people from time to time.

If you're lying you should be lynched. If you're telling the truth, you're dead anyways, and you've hurt us considerably on top of that. So you might as well finish the day balls-to-the-wall and do SOMETHING useful.

206

@Bladewing: So how about you start contributing some opinions now, please?

208

I appreciate that you're participating now but please do more than just pressure voting. Who do you think is scummy and why?

As well as these he also has 2 other posts (219 & 221) attacking me.

He then has nothing on page 10, and 3 posts on page 11. 2 Attacking me again and 1 identifying something 'extremely scummy' from mufasa and ignoring it..

So, in conclusion. In hohums time on here, he made 22 game relevant posts. Only attacked/probed 3 people (Me, Mufasa & Seamus) with 14 of thise posts and the other 8 posts all contained 'guidence' for BV.

Where is the scummyness you ask me? In numerous places..

He was the first to vote Seamus after his claim to be Mafia, effectively making it easy for others to vote straight away and not even concider if it could be a false claim, he even disreguarded BV's suggestion of just that in post 165 as I have quoted above..

He never 'probed' anyone other tham Me or Mufasa or even evaluated anyones play, suggesting that he had no real interest in searching for scummyness..

8 posts or 34% of all his game relevant posts were directed at BV, with the other 52% directed at Me and/or Mufasa.. Leaving 14% of those posts for everybody else... Showing that he was happy to stick with one person and keep voting or questioning them with disreguard for what everyone else did... Not scum hunting at all.. Scummy IMO.

So purely on the basis of this I will

vote: qwints

as you are the replacement of the player that I think displayed very scummy behavior.
I do still encourage you to defend yourself by attempting to explain Hohum's scummy behavior if you wish.

[Family:Kostic]

I should also add my analysis on Hohums voting patterns..

He had voted 4 people during his time here,

His first was a RANDOM vote against Mufasa, (No reasoning)

His second was a vote on Seamus, (Easy target, not reqiring any reasoning)

His third was on BV, as explained in my above post, (it was right after Neko and with no real reasoning of his own and then unvotes right after Neko, suggesting he never had interest in ever lynching BV) I describe that as a 'dummy' vote.

He then votes me for reasons he says reguarding my analysis of Spinach containing an attack on my WIFOM logic and something else that was not even relevant..

But when looking into deeper at a real reason why he wanted to lynch me was possibly because I doubted BV's claim that allowed Hohum to easily remove his fote from BV.. along with the fact that I was probing him..

Also, after hohum's initial vote on me with weak reasoning .. his final 3 posts were just as poor..

254

Prodded. I'm still fine with a Kostic lynch

267

Mufasa wrote:
unvote Vote: Self just to stir up conversation

Self voting is extremely scummy and unhelpful.

268

More votes on Kostic please!

All his votes are riddled with very poor reasoning and/or following the croud.

[Family:Kostic]

Now, in my own defence..

So, Qwints, all I want to know from you is do you think Hohum was 'helping' BV get out of trouble a bit, from what i have said? As it is a core part in my claim. Rather than fishing for a reason to vote for me with...

No, I think Hohum (along with neko) were pressuring BV to contribute both before and after the claim. I don't see any evidence of Hohum feeding BV lines. BUT I can't speak as to Hohum's motivation for doing so beyond saying that forcing players to contribute is generally helpful to the town.
As to your accusation that I am 'fishing' for reasons to vote for you, that's called scum-hunting. I have already posted that I found you quite suspicious but here's a detailed case.

When i said 'fishing' for reasons to vote for me with I meant you were trying to find any little weak reason to vote for me as I will show that you did in this post and as Hohum did during all of his attacks on me..

Post 192

IF I was scum... Why would I 'shoot Bronco during the middle of the night' if I was feuding with him, when all it would do would point the finger towards me... Just doesn't add up does it..

This is a WIFOM defense. You're saying that you wouldn't shoot Bronco because it would be too obvious. In doing so, you admit you had a motive to kill Bronco.

Using WIFOM logic against me is poor reasoning.. and Of course I would bring the issue to light because I was being questioned about it..

Post 218

The way I see it, the fact that you (

Spinach

) were friendly with Bronco, and possibly knowing he was not Mafia, gives you every reason to Lynch him during the night...

Obviously, it is only WIFOM theory and should be taken with a pinch of salt as it holds no real evidence to you being or not being Scum.. Nevertheless I think you would be the type who would lynch a friend rather than an enemy in this situation..

Shortly after you suggested that the nk shouldn't be used to implicate you, you made this weak argument to try and throw suspicion at Spinach. You were being inconsistent about whether the nk could properly be used to throw suspicion on someone.

I stated that it was not my intention to throw any suspicion onto Spinach within that post and only commented that he would probably choose that specified tactic from what I gathered from his personality, I was attempting to profile at that time. Something that everybody does in this game..

BV

seems only to be be forced posting, contributing when he feels he really has to, obviously he has explained why he has been very cautious. But it is anyones guess whether he is telling the truth or not... I still have my doubts....

In the same post, you also admitted the need to pressure BV to get him to contribute (pressuring him is what you attacked my predecessor for). You also seem to be trying to preserve the ability to lynch the claimed doctor.

I never attacked your predecessor for 'pressuring' but for what I feel was 'guidence' to another player as well as poor reasoning for jumping into a vote right after another player. Also, of course I still have by doubts that BV's claim as Doc is true as it was only a claim and I will always preserve the ability to lynch anybody until they are proven to be pro-town. It is scummy to think otherwise...

Post 283

Kison

is harder to judge at this point. He & Neko both were very interogative and on the look out for suss behavior, which is pro-town behavior, but as they have both been the most evperienced players, it is expected of them and anything otherwise would be seen as suss. So as said, I haven't seen any scummy behaviour but the pro-town behaviour can not be used as solid evidence that you are townie..

Thoughts:

Neutral

Here, I think, is a very scummy post. Here you say that being 'interrogative' is pro-town behavior, which you later attack hohum for doing. You also invoke the too townie fallacy.

Once again it wasnt for his 'interrogative' posts.. It was for his 'guiding' posts and they are not pro-town behavior so your 'too townie' fallacy claim has no grounds..

Now, here's how you attack Hohum in the same post:

[A]ll [Hohum] seem

to be doing is probing me on weak evidence that I have already rebutted...

Hohum seemed to 'guide' Bladewing through when he did place his vote on him, prompting him to "contribute more opinions"

Here, you're attacking Hohum for "probing", and "prompting him to 'contribute more opinions.'" Those are not scummy behaviors; indeed, they seem to be 'interrogative', which you defined as pro-town behavior. Attacking players for pro-town behavior is scummy. This inconsistency alone is worth voting you for. But, there's more

Once again, not for 'probing or prompting' but 'guidence' and lack of probing in this case... as probing would be to ask why he is not doing something and ID'ing it as scummy, not saying to do something or 'guiding'..

Post 325 (to me):

On the same note, I don't see a reason for anyone to need to ask you to claim, if you feel threatened and see a need to claim then by all means..

and
Post 335

But then Hohum's replacement kwints said he would claim if somebody not voting for him asked

(post 329)

and got me thinking... Maybe after all that, Hohum was Cop and investigated BV during N1 and this would explain the possible 'guidence'.

In these two posts, Family:Kostic suggests that I claim "if you feel threatened" while saying he doesn't think anyone should ask me to claim. (an instruction to a scum-buddy?) He also suggests that Hohum (and, therefore, I) am a cop.

This is truly persistent role-fishing.

In conclusion,
Family:Kostic has been inconsistent in his standards for what he considers scummy and has tried to role-fish. My vote is where it belongs.

As I have already said, these were just my own thoughts on aspects of the game and I never suggested that you were cop, I simply tabled it as a possibility because of actions that had occured in a game and I also said, within the same post that the same actions could also suggest that you were not cop at all..
So its not 'role-fishing' but trying to find a motive for actions..

[Family:Kostic]

@Family:Kostic, calling asking for information "guiding" is silly. Let's look at some posts:

I think [BV] should lay [his] thoughts out on the table, and share with the rest of the group. It's never "too early" to share an opinion.

BV, all I want is some thoughts on who you think might be scum. Surely, after 8 pages, there must be something you can find worth commenting on.

According to Family, one of these posts is "guiding" and one is "interrogative." I see both statements as pushing BV to participate. I'd also point out that IC's are SUPPOSED to provide basic theory advice.

You can sum up my position as follows: Repeatedly asking

people

to participate is NOT SCUMMY. Accusing

people

of being scum for pressuring people IS SCUMMY.

I do agree 100% with you there, but one thing you forgot to mention was that Hohum was..

Repeatedly asking

people

BV to participate.. Not people in general.

[Family:Kostic]

Spinach's claim is really interesting, especially seeing as how there are no villagers in this game...

First of all,

looking back at this, especially as a first time player, surely Spinach would have known the correct name of his role as it was given to him in the initial email & any new player would read through the role thoroughly..

As qwints said, I can't speak for my predecessor's thought processes. I guess I can say that I can conceive of a situation where the person who said "townie/villager" could be town (a newbie who had played elsewhere), and nothing about Spinach's play rules him our for being jsut that.

This villager/townie thing is ridiculous. There are countless possible reasons for Spinach's 'villager' claim. Primarily, villager is a synonym for townie.

I should also add my analysis on Hohums voting patterns..

He had voted 4 people during his time here,

His first was a RANDOM vote against Mufasa, (No reasoning)

His second was a vote on Seamus, (Easy target, not reqiring any reasoning)

His third was on BV, as explained in my above post, (it was right after Neko and with no real reasoning of his own and then unvotes right after Neko, suggesting he never had interest in ever lynching BV) I describe that as a 'dummy' vote.

The random vote against Mufasa was just participation in the random voting stage, so I don't see this as scummy.

The second vote on Seamus makes less sense, however. If we had waited for a forced replacement instead of immediately lynching, we could have questioned the new player and may have discovered him/her to be pro-town. The 'lynch all liars' principle doesn't apply when you can throw out the liar and find someone who will actually play the game.

The third vote on BV was questionable, but the fact that he voted immediately after Neko and unvoted soon after may just be the result of the two being experienced players, with hohum being slightly slower to react.

I do agree that the townie/villager thing is trivial, I just thought I would bring it up.

Also, the main thing I was getting at with hohum's votes was that he never really had a proper reason to vote for anyone, possibly besides me with the poor reasons that he did use.

[Family:Kostic]

Another thing too. Very poor play by BV, if you vote for someone with the reason that you want to hear more from them then you should ask what you want to know..

So, my two scummiest players atm are Qwints and Bladewing Vorox. Although I do have to review a few of BV's posts..

[Family:Kostic]

I do agree 100% with you there, but one thing you forgot to mention was that Hohum was..

Repeatedly asking

people

BV to participate.. Not people in general.

Asking people in general to participate is unlikely to be effective. Repeatedly pressuring one player is likely to provoke a response.

Not when neglecting other players in the game though, he never directed any game related posts towards Gabe, bronco or Spinach/Walnut at all. Now tell me that is not suss..

[Family:Kostic]

He proably wasn't, I know Seamus never did I suppose.

But I think it is a narrow minded tactic and would be a scum trait.

[Family:Kostic]

Also understood and agreed.

[Family:Kostic]

I just thought I would again say that I understood it, even though I had explained it a few times already, just to be sure everyine knew. Lol.

[Family:Kostic]

Also, reguarding Qwints post, he stated,
"here's how I feel about the players with votes on them"
But never mentioned BV in that list, when he had a vote on him.
As well as including Kison who doesn't have a vote on him at all.

Is it just me or do you confuse yourself?

Then you proceed to say, "I really don't like his (Family:Kostic) day 1 defense of mufasa"
straight before saying, "(Mufasa is) Very scummy although possibly just inexperienced."
Which is basically what I said about Mufasa in D1..

Confused?

Also, reguarding cases built on your predecessor. You and him are the same player and every post must be analysed for any possible evidence. Therefore if you are saying that you can not comment on your predecessors actions, in a sense you are suggesting that they may have been somewhat scummy and you are trying to create as minimal attention to them as possible by declining to comment on them..

But, everything suss your predecessor done has and should be brought to attention for you to answer because you and him will have had the same motivations in this game.
Failing to effectively answer such simple observations gives me the idea that you simply have no answer to them because they are scummy..

[Family:Kostic]

Kison, Gabe, Mufasa- do you think qwints or Family:Kostic seems more scummy, and why?

Family:Kostic. Aside from Hohum's disinterest late in the game, I didn't find anything particularly scummy about his play. His flaking is sitewide, though - he has disappeared from his other games as well, so I don't think that is a very indicative of his alignment.

This was only a small part of what I was saying that made Hohum seem very scummy, a big part of it was that he neglected a total of 3 players during his whole time in the game..
Appx. 86% of his game relevant posts were towards 3 people, the other 14% to 2 others and 0% to the remaining 3.. Not good stats if a person has any real interest in scum hunting IMO..

On the other hand, Family:Kostic not only tried to defend Mufasa

because

he exhibited scummy behavior early in the game, but his on-the-wall attack on Spinach also mirrored Mufasa's Spinach-vote justification:

I believe Spinach is scum, he was very quite day one, and he made the first jump on day 2. Spinach seemed to make himself look like Bronco's friend day one (from previous rounds) to make it seam to us to be impossible for Seamus to be Scum this time around.
Thererfore my vote is for

vote: Spinach

The way I see it, the fact that you (

Spinach

) were friendly with Bronco, and possibly knowing he was not Mafia, gives you every reason to Lynch him during the night...

Obviously, it is only WIFOM theory and should be taken with a pinch of salt as it holds no real evidence to you being or not being Scum.. Nevertheless I think you would be the type who would lynch a friend rather than an enemy in this situation..

Whether or not this indicates coordination, it's a poor justification for an attack.

Reguarding this, It was never an attack but simply an observation on my part. Also it simply shows possibly that we both seen the possibility of a link of and commented on it..

[Family:Kostic]

Also, reguarding Qwints post, he stated,
"here's how I feel about the players with votes on them"
But never mentioned BV in that list, when he had a vote on him.
As well as including Kison who doesn't have a vote on him at all.

Is it just me or do you confuse yourself?

Disreguard this Lol, I miss read the vote count. My bad!

[Family:Kostic]

Nevertheless, why disreguard BV from such a list?

He may not have a vote on him but there is no proof that he is not Mafia..
Anyone can claim to be anything, it doesn't mean they are..

[Family:Kostic]

BV must be very careful now, if he changes his vote from Gabe to either Mufasa or Qwints a Lynch will immediately proceed. The murder weapon is now literally in your hands BV.

Having previously voted Mufasa and Hohum respectively with his 2 previous votes it is anyones guess who, if any, his vote will go towards.

To everybody else, if you have any doubt in the current vote you hold then now would be the best time to review that decision to be sure that you would still be happy with lynching that person.

Having said that, a quick vote jump by anyone else that causes a miss-lynch now would not look good for that person at all.

[Family:Kostic]

The way I see it, Mufasa has been overly keen throughout the entire process of getting himself into a game, posting a new thread looking for a new game and 'thanking' the mod for placing him in a game and starting it the next day.

In game he has:
Attempted to stimulate non-game relevant conversation.
Suggested Gabe was cop.
Played the newbie card on numerous occasions.
Voted & unvoted very erratically.

Other than these over-enthusiastic actions, what else makes Mufasa such 'obvious' scum? I cant't see it.

Here you chalk up all Mufasa's scummy behavior to being "over-enthusiastic" and say you don't see why he is obvious scum. That is quite different from affirmatively saying that he is very scummy then noting that it's possible that this is inexperience. Note that I have consistently been willing to lynch Mufasa.

I suggest a lynch of Mufasa. When he turns up scum, we'll know that FK is probably his partner

Having you and Qwints say a similar things tells me that if Mufasa is infact mafia, I will have a lot to answer for..

Defending Mufasa as I have seems to have gotten me into this precarious position that I am in but all I was doing was saying that I did see his scummy actions as over-enthusiastic and there were scummier actions by players occuring at the time that were being ignored by players.
I never once said that I didn't think he was scummy and still have him high on my possible scum list, equal second with BV in fact. Also, would be willing to lynch him if there weren't more scummy candidates IMO still in the game.

Most to least scummy IMO.
1. Qwints/Hohum.
2. BV & Mufasa.
3. Kison/Neko & Spinach/Walnut.
4. Gabe.

I'm sure I am not the only one that has thought that Mufasa's scummy behaviour was down to over-enthusiasticness or someting of the nature though, as Gabe has said.

[Family:Kostic]

Family, it seems clear that the only one you would lynch over mufasa today is me. Surely you're not suggesting that BV is a possible lynch today.

Yes, I do feel that BV should be in concideration for a possible lynch, he may have claimed but his play has not displayed enough convincing scum-hunting..

[Family:Kostic]

Anyway Qwints, What, besides the doc claim, makes you so confident that BV is not scum so much to not include him in your player scum evaluation?

You avoided this question once already.

[Family:Kostic]

Here's a question for you Family:
Do you think a BV/mufasa pairing is possible?

It certainly is a possibility, I am willing to unvote for the time being and see if i can find any eveidence to support this if you are prepared to do the same?

I will be away for about 2 hours from now though.

[Family:Kostic]

UNVOTE

Did you get that directly from you personal messages Mufasa?

Because that is not how the common townie is described in this game..

[Family:Kostic]

Other than what I have already said in defence of my 'defending of Mufasa' there really is not much more I can add to it.. Recapping it:

Defending Mufasa as I have seems to have gotten me into this precarious position that I am in but all I was doing was saying that I did see his scummy actions as over-enthusiastic and there were scummier actions by players occuring at the time that were being ignored by players.
I never once said that I didn't think he was scummy and still have him high on my possible scum list, equal second with BV in fact. Also, would be willing to lynch him if there weren't more scummy candidates IMO still in the game.

Most to least scummy IMO.
1. Qwints/Hohum.
2. BV & Mufasa.
3. Kison/Neko & Spinach/Walnut.
4. Gabe.

I'm sure I am not the only one that has thought that Mufasa's scummy behaviour was down to over-enthusiasticness or someting of the nature though, as Gabe has said.

My claim is Townie.

If you would like to ask me questions on anything specific reguarding the issue that makes me suss then I would gladly answer them.

Also,

V/LA through 4/12

This obviously makes it hard for me to answer anything until then but I suppose you will have to do wnat you must until I get back.

Best of luck and I must say that I suppose I must had gotten a bit of tunnel vision with Mufasa.

[Family:Kostic]

Thanks for the game guys, that vote is me lynched. Again, good luck!!

Don't be foolish now...

[Family:Kostic]

Great stuff guys, I still can't believe I held Mufasa as innocent in my mind for so long. I suppose it got to the point where everything he did was wrong and i was ignorant to the fact.

Hohum/Quints was always guilty for me, especially after I evaluated his game play and voting patterns. It was just clear as day from that point.

Also, after my lynch I spotted things that made it even more obvious, that Walnut missed. Obviously was unable to post though, haha.

Walnut did very well at the end though imo, especially as a replacement.
Qwints did as well as he could to defend himself but Hohum left way too much of a mess.
Gabe & BV both did well as townies. Gabe accounted for him self brilliantly when required and in hindsite BV did a good thing to claim when he did as it was effectlvely a form of 'taking one for the team'.
Kison was also brilliant when he came in, did very well to set a clear town authority and set things in motion, as Neko did before he had to leave.
Mufasa, you pretty much had me fooled as I said. Well done there but others spotted you like a clown in a bank. Thing you better change your approach to games in the future lol.
Bronco, sorry for the feud we had early in the game. It was a win to us anyway, so good luck for future games.

Heres to winning the next game for us all aye!