Mini 739 ~ Mafia Jailbreak, Game Over

[Rishi]

I have given reasons for thinking you are scum. I will lay them out in a nice clean fashion but don't pretend that I've just said OHH RISHI you cad. You want concrete problems with your play, I'll give them.

Waiting.

Funny thing is that, normally, I'm not abrasive. I become abrasive when I'm dealing with shit like "I'm anti-game" or "a tool" or what have you.

I'm not "abrasive" with the majority of this game. Just a few of you. Wonder why that is.

Stepping outside the game for a second here, you ARE abrasive. I have played with you before. Whether you intend to do it or not, I’m not sure.

And maybe it is with me. I know I can be abrasive at times as well.

Then you don't ask questions of those who you deem town? Why not?

I don’t want to necessarily speak in absolutes, but, let’s put it this way: I ask more questions to people I think are suspicious. I ask questions to determine alignment. If I think someone is town, then I don’t feel the need to do that as much.

Not to speak for Spy, but he's also brought up your inactivity.

Yeah, but inactivity isn’t scummy. There’s a difference between being busy and being truly inactive. If I was posting as little as I was at the beginning of the game and only posting 1-2 sentence posts, then you’d have a valid argument.

[popsofctown]

you lynch claimed vanilla because claimed vanilla makes it easier for the scum to nightkill power roles by process of elimination.

[Rhinox]

you lynch claimed vanilla because claimed vanilla makes it easier for the scum to nightkill power roles by process of elimination.

I'm not following the logic... lynching me doesn't make it any harder for the scum to nk a power role. Lynching me also removes a town player from the game, so thats 1 less player that scum have to nk to gain a majority.

On the other hand, when a player gets to L-1 and claims vanilla, you usually still lynch them if you still think they're scum, because any scum player can easily fake claim vanilla.

But lynching me because I claimed vanilla and that makes it easier for scum to nk power roles is just silly as a policy, because lynching me doesn't give the town back any of that lost advantage - actually puts the town at an even bigger disadvantage by eliminating a town player through a lynch instead of a nk.

[bionicchop2]

While I understand what you are saying pops, I think it is an improper way to approach a lynch.

Yes, if we had zero information besides a vanilla claim, we should lynch the vanilla claim. Let's look at your logic though.

-Player A claims vanilla.
-You say we need to lynch Player A because they make it easier for scum to find a power role if they are telling the truth.
-You originally did not see player A as the most likely scum
-This means the piece of evidence for you to lynch him is that IF HE IS TOWN his claim helps scum.

If we lynch him and he does turn up town, you have done nothing to change the odds of scum finding a power role. If we followed your logic, we would have to lynch the first person bandwagoned to L-1 in any day and claims. This brings back the fact that RC was at L-1 and two players specifically spoke against a claim (Jahudo and Pops). Now since RC was let out of standard claim territory, the first person to claim is penalized by becoming an auto-lynch for you just for claiming.

If you think Rhinox is scummy, then vote him. I would have no qualms. His claim only helps scum if he is town and to lynch him because his claim narrows down the scum search for power roles is along the lines of policy lynching which you just road Spyrex for. Don't place the value of protecting power roles about the value of finding scum. If there was no claim, who would you lynch and why?

[CF Riot]

@Rhinox:

I think you're misreading, but I'm not sure how to explain any better. We're clashing right now. You're voting me, when I know I'm town. Because of that, I can't analyze you objectively.

I don't know whether my points have merit or not.

I feel if I voted for you, it would basically be OMGUS and not because I think you're likely scum. So

I'm consciously fighting the urge to do that

.

Given this, why do you keep harping that you think the RC wagon is scum-fueled? It seems to me that you're saying

you do

think your reasons for suspecting RC are valid, but you're choosing not to pursue them for fear that you may be tunnel-visioned or something. Do you think that is a fair interpretation of your position? Clarify?
----

Pops

's "lynching vanillas is protown" policy makes no sense. I thought he was pushing lynching people who claim early, which makes

some

sense, but this I don't understand. I also want an answer for the top of 354.

[Jahudo]

There’s a lot of ideas in the past few pages I would just QFT so to spare the quotes I’ll make a shorter list.

• • I agree that pairing possible scum partners is not as effective until day 2. We can look at momentum or lack thereof on wagons but that information will not be much use until we have a flip.
  
  • I think that alignment of a lynched player is a substantial component of how others are analyzed but it still comes down to if you think that person is scummy by themselves.
  
  • I wonder if a meta on someone’s posting length, frequency and style would be affected by this game’s atmosphere, since there are a lot of big posters. That is something holding me back from looking more into pops meta (although I find his actions suspicious without having played another game with him) and what Rhinox is saying about OGML (who I’ve played with but I still can’t tell if he’s playing normally).
  
  • I like my vote on Rhinox.

Seriously though, is this not an appeal to emotion? is this not meant to manipulate us into feeling sorry for you for being on a different posting schedule? Is this not meant to make us give you a little extra room since you are so inherantly at a disagvantage because of where you live?

I don’t think that’s AtE.
-----

you lynch claimed vanilla because claimed vanilla makes it easier for the scum to nightkill power roles by process of elimination.

Are you saying that if we didn’t lynch the claimed VT, the scum would know not to nk him and thus have a better chance of hitting PR?
-----
Rishi can you explain why you said:

your explanation is plausible (and bionnicchop2 derailed my question anyway), so I won't vote but, unlike before, IGMEOY now.

Specifically what his explanation has to do with you voting him or not? Before you thought he had a genuine scum slip you thought he was more town (post 200). If you thought his defenses were genuine before why might you think that his defense here would be more telling and cause you to move your vote?

I ask more questions to people I think are suspicious.

Which is what you did in post 314 when you questioned Rhinox on why he talked about 4 scum in the game. But your post 345 looks more condemnation than questioning:

Good job explaining why you wrote four instead of three in a few different ways. Nice job appending the line "which I always do in a mini, FYI" to your original quote.

You were more even-handed after that saying his explanation was plausible but it looks to me, and this is just my reaction, that you were looking for an in to vote Rhinox before you had all the defense from him that you seemed to initially want in post 314. Can you talk more about what his post looked like to you? Was it more of a mis-read on your part or was the post your initial reaction to his defense?

[popsofctown]

Yes Jahudo, that's what i was saying.

As i said earlier, the lynching of Rhinox is a theory point that i was open to discussion with. BC has a convincing explanation of how i still need to feel Rhinox is somewhat scummy to justify his lynch. Right now, i'm not sure he is.

unvote, vote RC

To answer CFriot's question, if i didn't already, RC is at the top of my list because he's failin the meta i set up for him, and he has no other tests. I'll use K7 as an example again, poor guy. He's so unreadable, you want to lynch him D1 anyway. Now if he actually quit lurking long enough to say something scummy, then you would have double reason to vote him.
It's similar. RC has failed the only barometer i have for him.

[iamausername]

Pops

's "lynching vanillas is protown" policy makes no sense.

I disagree, it makes sense. You ask people to claim at L-1 as a last resort to save themselves from a lynch. If they claim vanilla, then they give you no reason not to go ahead with the lynch, so they should be hammered immediately. You don't want to then go and wagon someone else to a claim, because that could lead to a power role being outed completely unnecessarily.

Now, with a premature claim, it's not so clear-cut, granted. Rhinox hadn't been agreed as a good lynch by the majority when he claimed, so if everyone who wasn't voting Rhinox prior to his claim had strong reasons not to be voting him, those reasons still apply. But wagonning someone else to a claim could still lead to a power role being outed, and lynching him now would prevent that risk. So, on some level, his claim does increase the value of his lynch. If pops thinks that's enough to outweigh Coyote or anyone else's scumminess, then that's a perfectly justifiable reason to vote.

If we lynch him and he does turn up town, you have done nothing to change the odds of scum finding a power role.

But if we don't lynch him, and force a power role to claim, THEN lynch him, then that would dramatically increase the odds of scum finding a power role.

If we followed your logic, we would have to lynch the first person bandwagoned to L-1 in any day and claims.

If they claim vanilla, absolutely.

[popsofctown]

i don't think Rhinox is that scummy though. Not as of now.

Of course, that could very well be the AtE clouding my judgment. ugh. this puts me on the fence. A picket fence. And it hurts my butt.

[Vi]

Vote Count:

RedCoyote (L-2) ~ Huntress, bionicchop2, Rishi, iamausername, popsofctown

Rhinox (L-3) ~ Jahudo, RedCoyote, OhGodMyLife, CF Riot,

popsofctown

popsofctown (L-5) ~ SpyreX, Moriarty147
OhGodMyLife (L-6) ~ Rhinox

Minimum (L-7)

[size=0]bionicchop2 - 0 | Huntress - 1 | iamausername - 0 - PROD1 5 | Jahudo - 0 | CF Riot - 0 | Moriarty147 - 1 | OhGodMyLife - 2 - PROD1 12 | popsofctown - 0 | RedCoyote - 0 | Rhinox - 0 | Rishi - 0 | SpyreX - 1 PROD1 4[/size]

Final Deadline Review: Sunday, Feb 22 2009
Current Deadline: Thursday, Feb 26 2009

[RedCoyote]

But if i couldn't read you at all, i would certainly lynch you immediately. That's how people deal with K7, that's how you deal with any unreadable player.

I think that's a poor way to go through games if you want me to be perfectly honest.

If [Rhinox's] town [RC's] next [to be lynched]. If he's scum, I'd be surprised at your accuracy enough to at least wait. I actually put Rhinox at even money right now (back at starting point 0), from BC's testimonies and his consistency with the WIFOM logic and AtE. He's consistent to himself.

Is there anyway I can force everyone in this game to read this statement?

Two major things I want to point out in this statement:

1) pops is lining up his lynches, and blantantly so. He doesn't seem to notice that we've been having a discussion for the past couple of pages that it's a fallacy to put me and Rhinox in a "good guy-bad guy" scenario.

2) pops also gets the same impression I got in post 369 that bionic's defense of Rhinox is very meta-based. When I brought this up, bionic confirmed his vote on me.

---

You wrote absolutely nothing that indicates I have a town read on Rhinox

based off of meta

.

Newbie 696 is officially part of Rhinox's meta now, whether you acknowledge that or not.

I mean, for goodness sakes, you brought it up. You said you were using it to analyze Rhinox. Now you're trying to play gotcha games with me because, "lololol never said specifically I got a town read meta "?

I'm calling entrapment here. I've made an absolutely valid syllogism.

bionic uses meta to analyze players, bionic thinks Rhinox is town, therefore, bionic's meta-read of Rhinox is town.

I'm calling entrapment because I think you were setting me up to bring this point up just to try and make your vote look better.

Now you can't argue that you didn't refer to Rhinox's meta because, one, you've made it clear that meta is part of your hunting strategy, and two, you've referenced Rhinox's meta multiple times in this game.

If you argue that Rhinox's meta-read gives off a scummy vibe, then your vote is contradictory to your meta-read.

When the initial statement in the question was pointed out as incorrect, you decided it was best to spin into a whole side thing about how I am reading Rhinox and because I use meta as a factor, I must have a town meta-read on him.

No, it is correct. I didn't spin anything, I used specific statements that you made about Rhinox and your interaction with him. You even brought up, and linked, the game y'all were recently playing together.

Moreover, I'd like you to reread pops' statement that I quoted above and tell me what you think of it.

---

are you telling me I should roll over and play dead because I'm just a townie and I shouldn't care if I get lynched D1, or are you accusing me of doing nothing but defend myself? I think I've been doing a good job of doing things besides defend myself.

No, but you claiming before you had to prematurely puts this town in a more awkward position than it needs to be. username is correct when he says it's difficult to argue against lynching someone who claimed vanilla townie.

And when I say take a more offensive stance, I certainly don't mean "roll over and play dead", I'm not sure how you could equate the two as they are essentially opposites of one another.

Further, although I do agree with your sentiments against OGML, until he begins to post some more it might help to consider other scum possibilities.

So, AtE is only an attempt to cloud rational thought and judgement if I'm scum. So it is circular reasoning.

No, because I didn't think you were scum before you starting appealing left and right.

I'm arguing that it doesn't put you at the disadvantage you're trying to make it seem.

But you're not the one who brought this up.

Anyways, why did you ask me if you already knew the answer? I said I'm njot sure you're scum and don't trust myself to analyze you objectively. I gave reasons for suspecting OGML. Whats the point of even asking me?

To gauge your reaction as to why you don't want me lynched today.

I get the feeling that if you weren't being wagoned and close to a lynch, that you would much rather be voting pops.

How do you come to terms with this feeling knowing that I was the first, non-random vote on you as opposed to joining a bandwagon?

Keep in mind that if I were playing by your philosophy, you'd have already been lynched. You were at L-1. I could have hammered you, or at least pressured you into claiming and then hammered you, instead of speaking out against your wagon.

And? Should I unvote you because you "granted me mercy"? Any town worth its salt would've had the noose ready for you had you tried to sneak in a lynch before I could claim.

not scum != town. It just means, I haven't come to a conclusion that I think you're more likely 1 side more than the other. In other words, I have a neutral read on you right now.

I disagree with this, but I

don't want to press the point

because it will get to be another theoretical discussion.

---

In regards to the claiming discussion, at the risk of sounding opportunist, I agree with username in post 382. I am willing for my position to be treated as null because of how this situation would put a bias on my decision, but I want to make it clear that I would certainly use it as a strike against Rhinox even if I wasn't in this position.

Now how username can preach this while sitting firmly on my wagon is a completely different discussion altogether.

[bionicchop2]

bionic uses meta to analyze players, bionic thinks Rhinox is town, therefore, bionic's meta-read of Rhinox is town

lol. This is some extremely horrible logic. I can never find the fallacy term that describes what I am looking for, but I think this one is Affirming the consequent or something similar (if A, then B; B, therefore A.)

If you don't see the major, major, MAJOR flaw in your statement, then it is going to be very difficult to discuss any subject with you.

Here is your statement broken down, followed by a comparable statement:

========================

Premise 1: If I get a town-meta read on someone, I think they are town
Premise 2: I think player A is town (also, FYI, just because I am not convinced Rhinox is scum yet, doesn't mean I think he is definitely town)
FALSE CONCLUSION: I have a town-meta read on player A

========================

Premise 1: If I put on a jacket, I am going outside
Premise 2: I am going outside
FALSE CONCLUSION: I have a jacket on.

The reason being that I can go outside without a jacket on.

[Moriarty147]

I'm reading you within a limited capacity RC (basing you're alignment off my experience from just one game). But if i couldn't read you at all, i would certainly lynch you immediately. That's how people deal with K7, that's how you deal with any unreadable player.

This is actually a pretty terrible tactic, because it assumes that given the absence of information, then you should assume scum, even though there may be other, scummier players in the game, and also totally discounts the possibility of there being any investigative roles whatsoever. This might be a good idea later in the game, but on day 1? Hell no.

I'm voting Rhinox right now though, because of the vanilla claim. If he's town you're next. If he's scum, I'd be surprised at your accuracy enough to at least wait. I actually put Rhinox at even money right now (back at starting point 0), from BC's testimonies and his consistency with the WIFOM logic and AtE. He's consistent to himself. But afaik, unless someone has more developed theory concepts than me, we need to lynch him because of the claim. And i think his flip would be quite an info mine.

The lining up lynches issue has already been discussed by RC, and I agree with it. The problem with the claim was that while IAU brings up a decent point, Rhinox made an early claim for no reason, and therefore instead of it being a last-ditch attempt to save himself from an impending lynch, it's just...there.

There's lots of good reasons to lynch Rhinox if you're convinced that he's scum, CF Riot brings up several. This is not one of them.

To answer CFriot's question, if i didn't already, RC is at the top of my list because he's failin the meta i set up for him, and he has no other tests. I'll use K7 as an example again, poor guy. He's so unreadable, you want to lynch him D1 anyway. Now if he actually quit lurking long enough to say something scummy, then you would have double reason to vote him.
It's similar. RC has failed the only barometer i have for him.

The problem is that, again, you assume that everyone else is equally townie, as you are lynching the person with no information on him, as you obviously don't think anyone is outright scummy, and you're doing it on day 1, which is far too early for such a lynch to occur.

The other issue is that none of us have a similar barometer to judge RC and therefore for all we know you're scum hiding behind "lol meta tell" reasons to vote for a townie without reprocussions.

Also would like to see some input from Rishi regarding the stuff brought up in Jahudo's post #380, especially given how that slip-up of Rhinox's really wasn't.

Also:

So, yea, I'm takin it quiet for the next few days. Lynch whomever, I'll check in and throw my vote if it looks like we're going to hit a NL.

Huh?!?

[popsofctown]

If you don't see the major, major, MAJOR flaw in your statement, then it is going to be very difficult to discuss any subject with you.

i tried to explain ad-hom to him once. he didn't get it

[popsofctown]

utterly screwed up quote tags. bionic breathed the words in the box

[RedCoyote]

[Premise 1: If I get a town-meta read on someone, I think they are town
Premise 2: I think player A is town (also, FYI, just because I am not convinced Rhinox is scum yet, doesn't mean I think he is definitely town)
FALSE CONCLUSION: I have a town-meta read on player A

The term "definitely" is thrown haphazardly into this statement. Townieness, if you will, naturally comes in the form of degrees or even a crude, often changing ranking, therefore I certainly wouldn't say anyone, the least of which you, would call someone definitely townie on Day 1.

Taking that word out, you're handing me the same line Rhinox did, that you consider players neutral. I said it to Rhinox and I'll say it to you, I don't want to get into another big theory discussion, but suffice to say that I do not take the position that players can hang out in a neutral, that is to say not townie but not scummy, zone (notwithstanding the beginning of the game). I believe every player should be able to go back, research another player's discussion and positions, and come to a conclusion of at least in the "slightly leaning" one way or the other. Specifically in situations like these, it seems to give people an out, a reason not to have to give an opinion on another player at whatever juncture.

Premise 1: If I put on a jacket, I am going outside
Premise 2: I am going outside
FALSE CONCLUSION: I have a jacket on.

The reason being that I can go outside without a jacket on.

This example I want to discuss further. I think it is a good analogy, but you are completely missing the point. Yes, you can come up to a conclusion that Rhinox is townie without using his meta,

but

not after you've already taken the position that meta-reading is a primary tool for your hunting

AND

that you've discussed, referenced, and observed Rhinox's meta already for this game (unless you are going to contend that he is acting scummy according to your meta-read, which is a completely different argument).

In other words, I know you have a jacket on because you discussed at length with other people (Spyrex) how important wearing a jacket is, and you've talked

about

your jacket and presented your jacket to other people outside.

You are wearing the hell out of that jacket, whether or not you've specifically

said

you are or not.

And I love how you completely dodged the direct question I asked you about pops saying you "testified" to Rhinox's playstyle consistencies (e.g. his meta).

---

i tried to explain ad-hom to him once. he didn't get it

This isn't ad-hom.

[popsofctown]

i know.

[bionicchop2]

These are my final statements on the issue. Anybody reading can see how the subject has been twisted, with you going as far as blaming me for trapping you. You made a false assumption and I simply tried to tell you it was false, so I couldn't answer the question you asked me. It didn't have to turn into you trying to tell me what my meta-read is on somebody.

MY META READ ON RHINOX IS NEUTRAL AND INCONCLUSIVE

MY META READ ON REDCOYOTE IS NEUTRAL AND INCONCLUSIVE

IN GAME INFORMATION LEADS ME TO BELIEVE REDCOYOTE IS SCUM

IN GAME INFORMATION LEADS ME TO BELIEVE RHINOX IS LESS LIKELY TO BE SCUM THAN REDCOYOTE

[popsofctown]

i can't say i didn't warn you

[Rishi]

Responding to Jahudo’s 380:

I’m not using quotes because I think it contributes to the “wall of text” feel. So I’ll try to summarize my points as best I can. If you feel like I’m evading any part of the post, let me know and I’ll do my best to answer.

Basically, what about Rhinox’s explanation that seemed plausible was the fact that he was saying “4 scum” as a worst case scenario (which bionnicchop2 brought up) to poke holes in SpyreX’s argument. The fact that he pointed out that SpyreX’s argument got even weaker if we assumed 3 scum seemed plausible to me.

What I thought I spotted (and now I realize that I didn’t see what I thought I saw) was the fact that Rhinox knew exactly how many scum were in the game. One scumgroup of four is extremely unlikely in the game, but suppose you were in a scumgroup of two. Of course, you would speculate that there’s another scumgroup, and you would probably go into the game thinking, “Okay, there might be two scumgroups of two, so four scum.” Obviously, the scum would still write from the perspective of being town, but having a pretty clear idea that there are four scum would still color their perspective on the game. So, I thought Rhinox was saying he KNEW there were four scum, which only scum would know, not that he was assuming there were four scum. Then I thought he was getting defensive about the issue.

Even if you think someone is town, there’s never absolute certainty (in the absence of some power role or other information that tells you the truth). A genuine slip (and they do exist – in an extreme example, I once saw a player use “we” in reference to scum) is as close as you’ll get to proof that someone is scum, though.

[Jahudo]

@Pops: Get out of the peanut gallery and respond to the accusations on you. It looks like you’re trying to stay on the sidelines and that is not happening this late in the day.

Two major things I want to point out in this statement:

1) pops is lining up his lynches, and blantantly so. He doesn't seem to notice that we've been having a discussion for the past couple of pages that it's a fallacy to put me and Rhinox in a "good guy-bad guy" scenario.

2) pops also gets the same impression I got in post 369 that bionic's defense of Rhinox is very meta-based. When I brought this up, bionic confirmed his vote on me.

That looks bad. I still don’t know what his stance on Rhino’s AtE is though. It looks like he regarded it as a scum tell in 370 but other times he doesn’t.
@Pops: What do you really think of Rhino's AtE?

I can never find the fallacy term that describes what I am looking for, but I think this one is Affirming the consequent or something similar (if A, then B; B, therefore A.)

I think it’s the “wearing your jacket” tell now or WTHOOTJ (wearing the hell out of that jacket)

In other words, I know you have a jacket on because you discussed at length with other people (Spyrex) how important wearing a jacket is, and you've talked about your jacket and presented your jacket to other people outside.

You are wearing the hell out of that jacket, whether or not you've specifically said you are or not.

It looks like you are misinterpreting how bionic has used meta in his opinion of how people are playing specifically for this game and how a tell can hold up for a current game without having to be reinforced with past game meta.

RE: Rishi 394. The two scumgroups of two makes sense as a possible place for scum to slip. If there's one 2-person mafia it would make sense for balancing to either have the SK or another 2-person mafia and Rhino would possibly be thinking about scumhunting the other scum, so in his scumhunting a slip could occur. And this:

A genuine slip (and they do exist – in an extreme example, I once saw a player use “we” in reference to scum) is as close as you’ll get to proof that someone is scum, though.

Does explain for me why you were ready to vote Rhino.

[RedCoyote]

It looks like you are misinterpreting how bionic has used meta in his opinion of how people are playing specifically for this game and how a tell can hold up for a current game without having to be reinforced with past game meta.

I'm not exactly sure why bionic thinks I'm misinterpreting him. He went as far as to say it's irresponsible not to consider meta-reading players that one suspects, he, at one point, suspected Rhinox, he brought up a past game Rhinox played in to make points about Rhinox's status, and he has since then said his suspicion level of Rhinox has been reduced.

To say it's a fallacy for me to therefore logically assume that bionic had a townie meta-read on Rhinox as part of this reduction in suspicion is equivalent of a gotcha tactic.

I mean, yes, I affirm that he never brought up that he had a definitive conclusion based on a Rhinox-meta; bionic is right and I don't deny that. It is an assumption I think I rightfully made based on his passionate discussion of meta-reading as a hunting technique, his references to Rhinox's meta, and his subsequent reduction of suspicions in Rhinox. I would not have assumed bionic's meta-read on Rhinox otherwise. If he had told me was that I was mistaken and he had not got any conclusions based on Rhinox's meta, then I would've conceded. Instead, he challenged me to show where he definitively brought it up, and I responded that he did not but I showed him as clear as I could why I made the assumption that he had.

[bionicchop2]

I'm not exactly sure why bionic thinks I'm misinterpreting him.

Mostly because what you are saying about my opinion of Rhinox and how I formed that opinion are incorrect. When I told you it was incorrect, you pretty much told me I was wrong and I do have a town-meta read on him. Regardless of anything you assumed or thought I meant to say, I am telling you flat out that I was unable to gather any information on Rhinox through meta and it has no influence on my current non-vote of him.

[Rhinox]

So, yea, I'm takin it quiet for the next few days. Lynch whomever, I'll check in and throw my vote if it looks like we're going to hit a NL.

Why is everyone just ignoring this comment?

[bionicchop2]

So, yea, I'm takin it quiet for the next few days. Lynch whomever, I'll check in and throw my vote if it looks like we're going to hit a NL.

Why is everyone just ignoring this comment?

I can't speak for others, but he hasn't posted since you questioned him on it right after he made the statement. Moriarty mentioned it also. I have made note of it and will see how he answers your initial question.