I have reread the entire game. These are my notes from the reread. I may (this is accidental) have repeated myself a few times. I am sorry. This is also a warning, this post is 7 pages long. Enjoy. (And after reread, I feel a need to apologize for my piss poor play all game.))
Zer0ph34r-Most anti-town and least helpful. Not sure how scummy.
Skillit -Here - I have no read.
Zachrulez - Slightly town
Sipylus-I have no read.
springlullaby - I feel obligated to apologize. Spring looks very town upon reread, and I have no idea where my minor suspicions were coming from.
zwetschenwasser -I am feeling he is scummy. Might make a case later in post.
Ectomancer - Mostly town.
Wolfblitzer -Per seemed pretty unreadable. However, Wolf looks VERY town.
JereIC
Pablo Molinero - No read yet.
Nuwen-If Zero is scum, I feel Nuwen could be scum partner.
Beyond_Birthday -Very strong up till page 5, and I have no idea what happened then.
Notes: I don’t think Zero and Spring connect in any fashion. Also, I voted Zero because he reached a point where it felt like scum just trying to act stupid so that a town aligned person, rather than mafia, would pull the amateur card. (Quite frankly, I am left unconvinced of the whole thing, and I don’t find an appeal to emotion to be telling of noob town. I think it is a better characteristic of a novice in general.)
When posting my number theory, I was still under the impression that Spring looked scummy. Upon reread, this doesn’t hold true. (A reread in some games is proving to be really good. Especially in one, like this, that looks really convoluted.)
In post 132, Zero asks how he planned for Spring to be suspicious. I really don’t think he did, per se, but I do know that I walked right into reading too far into it.
@Zwet:
Zer0ph34r wrote:I did ask you a freaking question and you're just voting for me because you don't like me, not because you think I'm scum.
Actually, at this point, you have to admit that Zero is just not reading anymore. Ecto posted FOUR POSTS before this that Zero asked a question to sip, NOT Zwet, but instead of correcting himself by this point, he is continuing to reiterate the same thing.
Also, while I feel that Spring is town (and I strongly disagree with this sentiment on me in the following post), I would like to note that it wasn’t until
springlullaby wrote:@ Ectomancer: I see now. I was thrown off by you saying 'I think you missed etc.', kinda unusual to see people interpreting other people to such a degree.
I'm still not liking JereIC, has actually contributed nothing now that the game is under way bar from a vague question about what I think of Zero. I'm not liking Beyond_Birthday either, I think his post sounds very self-conscientious. I'm kind ambivalent concerning Zero, could be awkward town or awkward scum at this point.
So Zero, what do you think of the game so far?
That anyone commented that they felt that I have said, essentially nothing. As a result, I am more suspicious of EVERYONE who failed, before this post, to argue against others, for example, Zwet, to acknowledge this “fact” and then said that it was true. Zwet, I use as an example, who said that I gave reasons for my post. I would use Per for saying I have 6 content post out of 6 (at the time he made that list), however, she isn’t around. I am pretty wary of these people right now.
(Also, Spring. I am cautious if only for at the time, I didn’t really get what was going on in this game too much due to a lack of attention. In hindsight, I was a bit of an idiot, and I think I made several miscues. One was, and this is NOT for appeasement, my suspicion of you. As a note:
Unvote
)
In the midst of rereading, I found this:
JereIC wrote:I'm sorry to hear that, PerArdua.
My top suspects right now are Zero and spring. As other people have mentioned, Zero hasn't contributed much but posted to appear like he was. His insistence that his question may be a distraction tactic too - let's talk about what there is to talk about, not who's scum or not.
Spring really hasn't contributed much either. I'm beginning to think that she was trying to speedlynch Ectomancer with her "random" vote, and originally thought up the whole "speedlynches are good for town" argument to try to explain that. When the bandwagon swung around to her, she used it instead to try to knock us off-topic. On the other hand, she's right about Beyond_Birthday's posts - their tone is self-conscious, like he's constantly evaluating his own behavior.
By my counting, this is the fifth vote on Zero. I think he's scum, and I think we're going to be able to use the fact that he's scum to implicate other players.
Vote: Zer0ph34r
Alright, just a question, let’s suppose that Zero IS scum. At this point (on page 11/12, where we are now), who would his mafianess implicate? Myself, Spring, or Nuwen? (Only included because she is the primary defense for Zero at the moment.) Or someone else entirely? What if Zero flips town? Any leads then?
springlullaby wrote:JereIC wrote:I'm sorry to hear that, PerArdua.
My top suspects right now are Zero and spring. As other people have mentioned, Zero hasn't contributed much but posted to appear like he was. His insistence that his question may be a distraction tactic too - let's talk about what there is to talk about, not who's scum or not.
Spring really hasn't contributed much either.
I'm beginning to think that she was trying to speedlynch Ectomancer with her "random" vote, and originally thought up the whole "speedlynches are good for town" argument to try to explain that. When the bandwagon swung around to her, she used it instead to try to knock us off-topic. On the other hand, she's right about Beyond_Birthday's posts - their tone is self-conscious, like he's constantly evaluating his own behavior.
By my counting, this is the fifth vote on Zero. I think he's scum, and I think we're going to be able to use the fact that he's scum to implicate other players.
Vote: Zer0ph34r
BTW, part in bold is a really crappy argument.
Spring: This has been bugging me: Why is the part about me, which you mentioned first, bolded as part of the “really crappy argument?”
Note: I love Wolfblitzer at the moment. His intro posts were really protown. Plus, in hindsight, I feel that Zero’s anti town behavior and the meta (which I finally stopped being lazy and actually read) indicates that Zero isn’t such an amateur that he deserves a by for playing this badly. I am nullifying my opinion on agreeing with Nuwen’s argument. I think I just liked the pretty words...
O.o
JereIC wrote:WolfBlitzer wrote:JereIC's #138 in regards to Spring feels like craplogic IMO. What makes you believe that spring was attempting to speedlynch Ecto? And what makes you think the "quicklynches are good for the town" piece was created ahead of time?
It's not really deductive logic, and I apologize for not making that clearer. I'm making up lots of theories when I read what other folks have to say and seeing which ones help explain their behavior. In this case, I thought it was odd that Spring had a argument about how speedlynches are good for town, and it occurred to me that she had been third on a wagon against Ectomancer, so maybe she had thought up the theory when she was on that wagon to try to get herself out of trouble afterward.
Pablo Molinero wrote:JereIC has hit a nerve with a few people, but looking at his most recent posts, something stood out: he says that using Zero as scum, "I think we'll be able to use that to implicate other players as scum" (or something like that). It's full of confidence, but if he's wrong, we'll have nothing to go off of to make said implications. Now, unless he's bussing on day one to set up lynches later (seems very unlikely), it dosen't seem to me that scum would make that assumption. ...did that make sense to anyone?
Honestly, the only person I think he can implicate now is Spring. Mostly thinking of how he voted for her at the random stage, how she hasn't found him acting weird, and how she seems to be helping him out now. If he's scum, I think all that indicates she's scum too. If not, she still may be scum, but we can have a lot more fruitful day tomorrow.
I don’t like what you are suggesting here, which is that Spring IS scum if he is and might be if he isn’t. Mostly because you are insinuating guilt no matter which way he falls, which should be self evident. Saying this seems to serve the sole purpose of setting Spring up for tomorrow...
Upon rereading Nuwen’s post, I have decided that it sums up to this: (as Ecto said in 186), “too scummy to be scum defense,” which appears to be used to modify an existing newbie defense.
After rereading my own, and others, attacks on Zero, I feel as though we, the town, have been trying to get him to participate all day. Zero has constantly and blatantly refused to apply or acknowledge the help and assistance we have given him. Furthermore, there are several points in this game where I, at the very least, feel he has just not read the full extent of people’s posts and has been all around unhelpful where as the town Zero, which Wolfblitzer has pointed out, has at least attempted to scum hunt, if not poorly. This entire play by Zero has become the epitome of useless and antitown play. I don’t know how else to put it, but Zero seems to not be a helpless individual who is unable to scum hunt, but one who is actively avoiding it all together.
Vote Zerophear
To pull a spring:
Your evaluation of Zero’s play thus far. Can you manage to see a town with Zero’s experience acting this way?
This is in response to the Spring and jere back and fourth, which tells me very little of Jere.or Spring in my reread.
Also note:
springlullaby wrote:I'm not getting why you are voting me Beyond, please explain better.
I was stupid? Quite frankly, the only odd thing about you is that I don’t see much of you on Zero, so would you like to clarify by answering my above questions, that would be fantastic.
Nuwen wrote:
Beyond_Birthday wrote:Nuwen wrote:[Insert long and intelligent analysis here]
Brilliant. If Zero is scum, you are the obvious scum partner. Therefore, Zero is not scum, and you are scum. (This is tongue in cheek, do not take seriously. But seriously, bravo, and I agree with your logic.)
This is precisely why I think he's just an inexperienced townie - prior to my post, there was no attempt by Zero's hypothetical scumbuddy to redirect the wagon. While I realize that my post could be interpreted as the aforementioned redirect,
I
know that it isn't, and that constant allows me to poke and prod for reactions.
Remember
: The only thing a townie knows for certain on day 1 is that he or she is a townie.
I need to reread the thread again and closeread Sping/Jere's exchanges before commenting.
Maybe Jere is mafia, but as I just said above, I can't see Zero as town-amateur. I can't. I like your analysis. It makes sense as I read it, but I still see Zero as scum upon my reread. Sorry.
However, I still agree with your assessment of Ecto, but I don’t think his aggressiveness is scummy. I just find it to be someone anxious to play, which is null in my book.
Side note:
springlullaby wrote:Zachrulez wrote:springlullaby wrote:
2. I already explained why his points are scummy.
2. Well that's great. Would you care to point out the exact posts or quotes, or do you want me to struggle to look through and find these explanations, so that when I fumble with trying to find them, you can find me scummy too?
2. Yes, I expect you to struggle and find them, it's your job. I will tell you if I think you to be scummy when you have done so.
Spring, I find your unwillingness to repeat your counterargument (or at least point out which posts) to be very antitown and unhelpful.
JereIC wrote:BB, just making sure I understand your argument: Spring is scummy because she tried to stop Zero's lynch. She did this, even though he's a townie, because she knew that his lynch would make evidence against other scum. Am I missing or messing up anything? Also, what in particular in Nuwen's post convinced you?
Mostly that it made me realize that a plea to emotion *can* come from a townie. I think other's suggested it, but none caught my attention.
This is actually simpler than your argument, but since I no longer feel Spring is scum, upon a reread, I have to admit that I disagree with your argument. However, I still feel Spring’s refusal to point out her counter points against you, Jere, is annoying and unhelpful...
(That is my only problem with her at the moment.)
Post 249 response:
I’m an idiot, and I felt, when reading their arguments and rereading from about page 7 that they made a bit more sense. Rereading from the start, I slowly realized you have some reasoning behind your play that is self apparent, and I am getting town vibes from you. As a side note, I also get the point Zach was claiming, but still wonder about your attack on JereIC, in the sense, that I agree with your statements on reread. Zach is similar to Jere only Zach makes a hell of a lot of sense by contrast.
zwetschenwasser wrote:MaHeroWhatever: You first say that I'm not posting content, and then you say all I'm doing is gloating over Zero? I firmly believe that Zero is bluffing through his emotional appeal, and that Nuwen and You are doing nothing but repeating the same one-liner argument that I don't think applies here. You call the meta thing a card, but it makes sense to me that a player would be more emotional in a game where he's scum than in a game that he's not. Zero's last post was, indeed, exactly what he wrote in the last sentence. I don't enjoy MF's disregard for all my points of accusation and dismissal of them as not containing content and acting purely scummy.
You know, all game, I thought you were really scummy Zwet. Until this post. Essentially: QFT
JereIC wrote:First off, I was hoping to wait for Nuwen’s response to my question about his speedlynch argument, but it’s not necessary now as I’m not that suspicious of him anymore.
Anyway, BB’s arguments against Spring are craplogic. The main thing is his justification for his vote on Spring. In post 241, he says his argument is that she delayed Zero’s lynch, and assumes that Zero is a townie. Delaying a lynch of a townie is not particularly scummy imho. I really don’t see scum trying to delay any lynch except that of their buddies. As MaFoHero said about zwet’s 184, the real scum tell is when they stay on the lynch and gloat when it’s close to succeeding. But what really bugs me is that this argument works just as well against the other people who posted but didn’t vote for Zero. It could even work for BB and me, as we’ve jumped the bandwagon – that’s going to stop the bandwagon a lot better than just posting. Without any reason to distinguish Spring from the rest of us, his argument doesn’t hold any water.
Add to that the self-consciousness that Spring and MaFoHero pointed out and his early support of the Zero bandwagon, and I’m willing to vote for him.
Vote: Beyond_Birthday
I’m not up for a Zwet lynch yet, but I also haven’t read all of his posts that closely. I’ll try to do that tonight and post something in the morning.
I am not going to deny they were craplogic. It was, almost, crap logic. However, I have found that Spring is (I think) the player who is most likely to be town aligned. I have completely misread her play in this game... I really have.
Ectomancer wrote:
As I said before, a lot of people are assuming a lot things in this game. I believe Birthday is trying to say that Spring is aware that Zero is town and is slowing down the wagon in order to appear town if Zero flips town. Hate it because #1 - It assumes the alignment of one player based upon another player with no effort towards confirming the alignment of said player. #2 - It ignores the ability of a town member to actually make a good judgment call based upon the action in the game. #3 - There are a few players this logic could be applied towards.
That being said, I've seen worse tangles of logic.
As far as self-consciousness goes, I've seen it a lot in newbie games, somewhat less in Mini's with the more experienced players. It eventually wears off. The question is whether it should have already worn off of Birthday. 6 months is a long time even if this is his first Mafia game experience.
#1-3 is pretty much all the points I have made in my crappy play over the past five pages.
First of all, I am not selfconcious in my posts. Maybe I come off that way, but I'm actually not... In fact, as I mentioned before in this post, I don't even preview them. But, whatever, I don't care about that. Perceive my posts as self-evaluating if you want, it doesn't matter in the long run. And speaking of long runs...
IT FINALLY F*CKING OVER!!