Past Ages Mafia - Game Over

[ortolan]

Hullo

Vote: Kmd

[ortolan]

this is going to be fun

[ortolan]

I am guessing this is just for today

[ortolan]

ah, good point

It is now Day 1. With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch

This suggests we die together...

[ortolan]

just a quick comment to avoid Empking possibly taking me to the gallows with him:

He has a scummy (very scummy) meta, please read his recent games and see how likely he is to be lynched versus how many times he actually is scum (no offense, Empking). Yes, I am trying to save my own skin here

[ortolan]

great spot friend, but my comment was not rooted solely in the present game's activities, but moreso the fact that Empking manages to get himself lynched in almost every game he's in, especially when he's town (although you can see us making an unstoppable scumpair here: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=2)

but apart from the game where he was my scumbuddy (or actually including that game ), he's managed to make himself look extremely scummy when town in no less than two games (could even be three but if so the third escapes me at present) which I've been in: Prisoner's Dilemma large theme and Alpha Centauri smalltown. So if you understood the history you'd understand the comment is perfectly valid

[ortolan]

Obviously he has a no less than normal probability of being scum this game, but I am just asking you be wary because he does have a scummy meta and if he is lynched this entails me being lynched also, which is bad for my action be it town or mafia (so as I said this comes from self-interest)

[ortolan]

action = faction

sigh

[ortolan]

Your alignment has been revealed in both those games, there is no issue.

And this is exactly what I mean- he is accusing me of trying to get him lynched when his lynch entails mine also. Complete non sequitur.

[ortolan]

I'm voting Empking-town in this game, btw.

[ortolan]

Vote: Empking

[ortolan]

I agree, you are quite scummy for self-voting

Vote: Empking

[ortolan]

but you are my other head

[ortolan]

Empking is talking to himself Brandi, ignore him

[ortolan]

Apparently I was critiqued for prophesying what has actually come about.

Don't blame me for being prescient.

And my vote on Empking was, in fact, not 100% serious. I'm still getting no scum-reads on him.

[ortolan]

no lynching is almost always a bad idea

I agree with Kmd- lynch the scummies while taking into account who they are attached to.

And just to clarify; yes my vote on Empking/myself was a joke.

[ortolan]

Because of crap posts like 94 (by you, btw) which implied you still hadn't grasped my facetious intention.

[ortolan]

Not at all, but you are simply wrong if you think it makes me scummy. You are also wrong for suggesting I repeated myself when the clarification and more explicit language was itself prompted by you saying "I don't understand why he vote Empking twice" which isn't valid when the action has already been explained as in jest. Either dispute my classification of my vote on Empking as a joke, or agree with it, but don't use weasel words to suggest the mere fact I voted Empking twice (when the reason was that he himself reversed my vote anyhow) is somehow scummy.

[ortolan]

"odd" is a euphemism for scummy, you are suggesting there was something untoward about my action.

What was wrong with voting Empking again? He did *exactly* the same thing also, voting Brandi twice in a row. His vote invalidated mine so I don't see how it's not perfectly reasonable to re-direct the vote (and I knew he was just going to change it back a minute after I posted anyway). And maybe my reasoning was that I didn't like the Brandi vote? Perhaps even if I didn't feel strongly about it I preferred an Empking lynch to a Brandi one, in which case changing the vote was justified? Perhaps, after all, it was a joke?

[ortolan]

Why did she feel the need to describe my behaviour as odd then?

And how is it odd, anyway- you agree with my characterisation of his meta as scummy, why do you take issue with me presenting evidence for such? Really having trouble seeing where you're coming from with this.

[ortolan]

You are defending him with meta (which is something I don't like), while admitting that he could be scum. And I don't see how it could be bad that you get lynched if Empking is scum. It's also interesting to note that you say 'self-interest', while speaking about that you could be town or mafia. That's not what I would call 'self-interest' as you should do it for the best of the town or mafia.

This is an extremely frustrating and very, very, very dumb characterisation of what I said. Please get your scumtells sorted out properly. Using meta as a defence is not scummy. Pre-emptively using meta as a defence of someone likely to display scummy characteristics while not necessarily being more likely to be scum; when their lynch is linked to mine, is especially not scummy. This is because I know if he and I get lynched on the basis of Empking committing the plain old "vanilla" scumtells, then there is a high probability he is town despite this. Furthermore I know I am town and am "playing to win" by seeking to prevent my lynch.

[ortolan]

You can't have it both ways - you can't bring up another scenario when that is not the one you said it was. Do you stick with that it was merely a joke, or do you sway to your new scenario?

Nup, the point was that prior to my clarification, there were any number of valid explanations for me voting Empking twice (and he did exactly the same thing to me in changing his vote back to whoever it was, which you failed to mention). Yet apparently you felt the need to draw attention to it.

[ortolan]

Not quite sure what you're getting at with the first sentence (then again, I have been falling on ice today, so it might just be me.) Yes, but I would think selfvoting yourself twice is odder then voting someone else. If by 'drawing attention' would mean that I gave my opinion, I'll make sure to stay mum in the future.

Two things: first of all, we're dealing with "self-voting" in the conventional sense to begin with- voting for myself and another is not the same thing.

Secondly, we're not really dealing with "doing it twice" either, because the reason I re-voted was that Empking changed the vote, effectively validating my vote on him in the first place, so I revoted to re-instate a vote I had been forcibly deprived of.

[ortolan]

same; I never self-vote in a "normal" game as a result.

[ortolan]

Well, actually, no.

But I didn't think of that game. My reason for self-voting there was more a joke in response to Crazy. I wouldn't have done it otherwise. And I didn't do it in the way that I usually associate with self-voting in the random stage- unprovoked, to "generate discussion".

I also self-hammered while town (lol) in a newbie game once, so I guess I have self-voted before, but not in any context purely to get a "reaction" (except this game I guess).

[ortolan]

@Ortolan
The thing is that you admitted that Empking could be scum, yet you still defended him. So I'd like to know, if Empking would continue to play like this when you two are seperated, would you or would you not go for his lynch and why?

No I didn't *defend* him, I just said be careful of what you interpret as a scumtell in his case. I said the same thing in two other games where he was in fact town- Prisoner's Dilemma and alpha centauri smalltown. The fact that his lynch/nightkill is linked to mine is even more reason to say it this game. End. It's getting boring talking about it now, really.

I don't like Slicey and Budja both weighing in on events and saying "oh hehe no-one looks scummy right now" in 195 and 196 respectively. Then Slicey defends an obvious point in 200 but admits he "could be wrong". Heavy fence-sitting taking place.

Checking over his posts 111:

IMHO, I seriously doubt we'll be two-headed more than one day/night phase.

is horrible "speculation", the mod made it blatantly clear that each day we'd be playing a different "past ages" game.

I'm kind of torn between No Lynch idea. D1 NL's are almost always bad because then we have very little to go on D2. However, if we lynch, we have to possibility of losing 4 townies (two on the lynch and two at night.)

I'm more in favor of a lynch, but I'm not throwing the NL idea out the window.

Ok, the way he's expressed it isn't particularly scummy but it's still a bad argument- depending on how many scumteams there are, the scum certainly won't hit a pair featuring someone from their own faction tonight. So there's no chance of scum miskilling their own faction (crosskills may occur, depending on the setup). Thus I still think we revert to the obvious argument that no-lynch is bad because it deprives us of the only town-directed kill.

Vote: Slicey

because I've seen nothing pro-town from him all game.

[ortolan]

and I forgot to check who he was paired with until after I posted that but...it's animorpherv1, who has posted once all game I believe, to OMGUS Empking for voting him. How fortuitous.

[ortolan]

I'm re-reading the game now, will post soon.

[ortolan]

Slicey is looking more and more obv-scum with this indecisive crap (he said in about 3 posts that he "had a bad gut on me", which just happened to coincide with me being wagoned with crap logic by BSG and others. Rather opportunistic.) Shame it took Kmd to make essentially the same arguments as me but in more detail to get his wagon off the ground, but it needs more votes before an incompetent town mislynches the pair of me and increasingly obv-town Empking.

Don't understand Raging Rabbit defending Slicey so strongly either in not one but two posts. He should know better.

Vote: Slicey

Consider me to have a permanent vote on Slicey at this point i.e. even if Empking changes my vote I can still hammer him if necessary, unless he should present me with reason not to. Ironically enough I don't actually disagree particularly with Empking's vote either.

Narsis is also a fan of crappy aged wagons featuring craplogic.

hmm...to be honest i'm not sure who to vote for. i find Santos kind of distracting. that's not something i see as very townie like. besides Slicey's contradiction and early claim i don't really see him as scum either. empking is being well...empking, although ort is giving me a wierd vibe, especially this post:

just a quick comment to avoid Empking possibly taking me to the gallows with him:

He has a scummy (very scummy) meta, please read his recent games and see how likely he is to be lynched versus how many times he actually is scum (no offense, Empking). Yes, I am trying to save my own skin here

if empking really is scum and you are town you should be more then willing to sacrifice yourself for the town. even so, empking is just being empking.

without the two-headed thing my vote would most definitly go to Santos. however, with the two heads...i'm feeling a little more inclined towards an Ort/Emp lynch.

You swallow the crap argument pushed by BSG earlier and regurgitate it in a somehow even worse form. You do this by quoting something said on Page 2 for which I've already had my name repeatedly dragged through the mud for based on craplogic. Couldn't find any posts made by me more recently to quote to make me look scummy? Funny that.

It's pretty obvious I made myself a scum-target by my, admittedly premature, cautioning of Empking's meta. This allows scum like yourself to run amok and interpret a "meta defence" scum-tell into my words even though that's not actually what I said- I said beware of Empking looking scum cause he's often townie in that scenario (which I have said in other games also and only have more reason to say so in this game). This is not saying "Empking looks town", how the fuck would I have known whether he was town or not on page fucking two?

FoS: Narsis

and

BSG

That said, Empking actually does look more town to me this game than he usually does, he is voting for scum-meister BSG after all.

IronTurkey is a neutral read but Slicey is so obv-scum that I'll take the 95%/~35% chance of scum pair, the alternative is simply to no lynch which as an option does not seem to be in favour presently.

[ortolan]

This paragraph is full of fail. Empking has done nothing to prove that he's obv-town. Yes, I said I had a bad gut on you, but I decided to vote for Santos because I feel he's more scummy than you. I'm not so sure now after this paragraph.

I will, however,

Unvote

, because I feel BSG is town. Not that it will matter at this point, cause you guys are about to lynch (probably two) townies. >_>

In this post scum realises it's now definitely down to a me/Empking lynch or a Slicey/IronTurkey lynch and wants to pave the way to get himself off the block by voting us.

And just because you don't have enough experience generally/with Empking specifically to realise he is more than likely town this game doesn't mean I don't (this conclusion is separate to my initial cautioning of Empking's meta, despite what BSG would have you believe).

Yes, I said I had a bad gut on you, but I decided to vote for Santos because I feel he's more scummy than you. I'm not so sure now after this paragraph.

Yer, that's real convincing. Pre-emptive OMGUS, too.

And look who's bringing it up again. Don't blame me that I get the feeling now that this is just to give us an impression that you've read this game, while not doing so.

Wait

What?

Where does this even come from? Highly ironically me bringing this up resulted directly from re-reading the entire game. You spent a lot of time attacking me for a null-tell rather than doing any good scum-hunting today, don't think it will go unnoticed. If not today then later.

Anyway, your meta argument that you've meta defenced Empking before is bogus. See here, your quote from Alpha:

About Empking: yes, he looks scummy. I have previously played with him in a game where we were scumbuddies, and he also looked scummy in that. I'm in I believe two ongoing games with him (this and another, there might be one more I can't think of also)

and think he looks scummy in both of them

. I do also recall someone specifically saying he has a scummy meta. So currently I'm probably neutral on him.

Amazing. You actually go to the effort of looking this up, but then are oblivious to the fact that it very, very, very strongly supports everything I've said this game, and in absolutely no way contradicts it. Yes, the argument I made is that "Without the benefit of meta, Empking looks objectively scummy. He always looks like this though, so he is a neutral read." The fact he looked scummy as he always does

doesn't

make him town, but it makes him not really more likely to be scum than the prior, setup probability." So please tell me any way in which what you quoted contradicts what I said this game, or were you hoping no-one was actually paying attention and further crap-logic is what you needed to take the wagon to a lynch?

As someone who has played with Empking before, I'm aware of his meta (long time ago Emp.) But that shouldn't be a reason to not lynch him. Or even worse, defend him.

Meta is in some cases extremely valid. In many games, including this one I would be reluctant to lynch Empking based on my previous experience with him. So no, you are outright wrong here.

As for the neutral part of this quote, it didn't look like that in the other ongoing game (not allowed to quote from that one).

Strictly speaking, you are allowed to neither quote nor reference it. You slip in that "it didn't look like that in the other ongoing game", knowing the point will stick because I can't quote it to potentially prove you wrong. Nice play, scum.

As for the reason why this is funny, I haven't said a thing about it lately, yet you FoS me for it. After a long time, you decide to FoS me, for something you tried to wave away. And then I would like to know why that is. I can even find a nice quote of yours in that post which can be applied here as well.

Bullshit. Here's what happened. I say something about Empking's meta, because I was none too happy about being paired with him to begin with- a general cautioning that he looks more scummy than he probably is (based on fact people are town about 75% of the town, and Empking looks scummy ~90% of the time, odds are him looking scummy does not entail him being scum strongly at all), which anyone who's played with him should be aware.

A whole bunch of people, not all of them opportunistic scum probably (;)), criticise me for this, probably rightly initially. Then when the issue should be over and done with I get several people later in the day suggesting a vote on me because of it (Slicey, others IIRC, possibly Narsis and yourself implicitly). Obviously I still need to defend myself, if I'm going to be lynched for such a crappy reason. Then BSG the hero comes in and accuses me of dwelling on something "everyone had moved on from", except they were going to vote and potentially lynch me for it.

I'm yet to see a good reason for what I said about Empking in the opening stages of the game actually being scummy either, which just deepens my conviction that BSG is being highly, highly, highly disingenuous. Scum.

Read what I've said again. Because I didn't say this at all.
I'll also let Narsis have a go at you before I respond to that part.

Pretty sure the

only

argument you have against me relies on continually misquoting me then basically implying I'm not allowed to defend myself. So let's not get too sanctimonious about our "wording".

[ortolan]

You wanted to stop this talk as it 'bored' you. Yet, you're the one who brings it up after a re-read. Not only that, it's what you mostly discuss. You talk about Slicey, a post from Narsis and you mention that you see Empking as Town, and that you have a neutral read on IT. The first two is due to something you don't see as a scumtell, while I do (and apparently Narsis and Slicey as well) and the other two you don't state a reason for. And no, the reason why you see Empking is town isn't a reason as he voted Santos. I'm included in that one.
As for not scumhunting, look at your own posts first. It has most of the time been you defending against the attacks of the meta defence. You haven't even stated why you FoSed me after all that time. This just comes across as OMGUS.

Look. No. I was/am getting voted solely for doing that, it may bore me but if I'm going to get lynched for it I have no choice but to discuss it. Stop using insanely bad arguments please. Also I've done more than my fair share of scumhunting this game. Just the biggest scumtells being dropped are still the crap arguments being used against me.

You're wrong. You're not allowed to discuss any ongoing game outside said game. And we're not discussing it right now. But I think that the players should know how bad your defence actually is. As I'm not allowed to quote it, I'll let them look at it themselves. And you're not the one who is allowed to give comments about this.

No, you said "I can't quote the game (prisoner's dilemma, I believe), but I will say I don't believe what you said in this game based on that game." Which is horrid because I cannot reasonably defend myself from this implication without quoting from the game to disprove you, which I am not allowed to do.

Yes, it's very scummy to have a life besides mafia.

This and the ensuing words completely fail to follow on from the words of mine you quoted.

Braeden becomes scummy-KMD doesn't defend.
Slicey becomes scummy-IT doesn't defend.
Santos becomes scummy-BSG doesn't defend.
Empking isn't seen as scummy-Ortolan does defend.
Conclusion: something's fishy.

You're still using the same strawman I asked you to stop using in my previous post. I never, ever acknowledged I "defended" Empking- I said be wary of interpreting what would be scumtells for other people into his play. This is

not

defending him, and I characterised it as "cautioning" in my previous post. You can call my latter assessment of Empking a "defence" of him, but not this. This is getting into seriously mentally-deficient, teeth-grinding territory.

IronTurkey is looking more and more townie, I don't think scum would so altruistically countenance their other head's lynch. Slicey is still obv-scum however. Make your choice, if you agree with me- lynch the pair or no lynch. In BSG's case I'm kind of wondering if scum would openly tunnel so hard, but there's no way I'm giving him anything better than a neutral assessment this time around.

populartajo needs to give reasoning tbh.

[ortolan]

But I'm surprised that this is your defence against the example. I'd have expected something else actually.

Ok, that's great. You still haven't said why you ever thought your quote from alpha centauri smalltown actually contradicted anything I've said this game.

I can't blame you as you don't look at it using a penguin brain, however you said that we should be wary of what a scumtell is in his case. So what normally would be scummy when a player does it, should be treated as neutral in Empking's case. And that is defending.

No. It's not. I myself had no idea about Empking's alignment at that point. You will continue to read whatever you like into it however.

How do we know Slicey's going to get lynched without a majority, anyway? Where are the rules on deadline votes?

[ortolan]

Vote Santos

[ortolan]

I voted for Kmd because I saw nothing to contradict my usual town-read of him.

Plus I knew he would just defer to voting for the lynch anyhow, which I'd prefer.

Raider, I disagree about BSG doing what she wants. The power should be with the majority of the group. Of course she has the power to say otherwise, but I'd prefer playing this like a normal day. We don't know what kind of rules we'll have in future days, so when we have the chance to play a normal day, we should do it.

Strongly agreed.

Who else voted for BSG other than Kmd and Narsis, btw?

[ortolan]

And I'm also interested in Orolan's question in the above post. I voted Tajo.

And why was this?

I don't disagree with your attitude of keeping your suspects under wraps until there's been more discussion (although I guess I don't have much choice at this point )

We only have 2 claimed votes so far on BSG and 3 on URoE so please, whoever else voted him tell us.

[ortolan]

I got prodded and am here and am currently waiting for answers to some questions

[ortolan]

Wow.

Greetings WhereIsTony. You are deciding who dies today.

[ortolan]

A Puppet

It's Sooty!

I didn't vote for BSG anyway so I'm ambivalent about the replacement. It's kind of weird (although not really in a scum-tell, town-tell, neutral-tell way) that she said she had two suspects she was keeping under wraps and then had to be replaced though.

[ortolan]

I thought URoE (who recently got replaced I believe) seemed reasonably townie. I'm a bit unsure of the usefulness of discouraging people from L-1ing during day 2 but don't think it's a scum-tell.

[ortolan]

Not sure I understand how this works? Does only one person get the opportunity to blow themselves up?

If so we should vote on who it is, imo, and threaten them getting blown up by someone else if they fail to comply (and specify the second person for them to kill).

[ortolan]

I'm assuming Empking pre-empted/assumed my plan, so I will ask what his reasons for wanting Budja and myself to die are. If I am wrong about your intentions, feel free to correct me.

[ortolan]

Ort; Not helpful, trying to pretend to be town by coming in the middle of day 4 to propose a plan that was already being used.

What does not helpful mean? And your second reason doesn't make sense, you voted for me before I made the suggestion. Also if the plan I described was what you intended, you should have been more explicit to begin with.

I will re-read Budja but his posts on this page have me thinking he's pro-town, in fact I even agree about the lurker pressure move.

Vote: hohum

(he's usually more vocal/intelligent)

Vote: killah seven

[ortolan]

Are you definitely going to kill me? Tell me if I need to claim or not.

[ortolan]

and OK, I will concede that my over-defensiveness about being linked with Empking was poor-play, and in a sense I deserve to die for it.

However it will only hurt town further to do so.

Shall I claim?

[ortolan]

I am assuming what Max posted is accurate and you indeed have to decide who to kill in the near future. What time frame do we have until you blow yourself up?

[ortolan]

Well tell me if there's any questions you'd like me to answer or if you'd like me to present a case against someone else, which I certainly can and should do anyway.

[ortolan]

Cop.

BSG was town

hohum is town

raider is town

[ortolan]

Because there was a good chance BSG would kill me

[ortolan]

Budjas town

[ortolan]

< naive???

[ortolan]

Why doubt?

Sanity unspecified

Possible LYLO.

[ortolan]

Slight suspicion.

no PR's.

Clarify meaning?

[ortolan]

Slight

suspicion.

Suspect? LYOL?

[ortolan]

"no PRs"?

[ortolan]

What is?

[ortolan]

Explain?

[ortolan]

go on

[ortolan]

don't understand

[ortolan]

relevance of

[ortolan]

post restrictions

[ortolan]

or vanilla

[ortolan]

behaviour's relevance

[ortolan]

to claim/

[ortolan]

unguaranteed sanity

[ortolan]

because all

[ortolan]

dead townies

[ortolan]

are vanilla,

[ortolan]

I can't

[ortolan]

have PR?

[ortolan]

fair point,

[ortolan]

I can't

[ortolan]

say anything

[ortolan]

to counter

[ortolan]

it

[ortolan]

huh?

[ortolan]

it is

[ortolan]

faint possibility

[ortolan]

I'm naive

[ortolan]

as 4/4

[ortolan]

results on

[ortolan]

those thought

[ortolan]

scummy, came

[ortolan]

back innocent

[ortolan]

and mod

[ortolan]

refuses to

[ortolan]

guarantee sanity

[ortolan]

what do

[ortolan]

you mean?

[ortolan]

well, yes

[ortolan]

it is

[ortolan]

probably warned...

[ortolan]

time to

[ortolan]

pressure lurkers

[ortolan]

Vote: killa seven

[ortolan]

Who do

[ortolan]

you suspect,

[ortolan]

Brandi?

[ortolan]

he knows

[ortolan]

own role

[ortolan]

and I

[ortolan]

cleared him.

[ortolan]

Budja, do

[ortolan]

you think

[ortolan]

I sane?

[ortolan]

still here

[ortolan]

killa seven

[ortolan]

should be

[ortolan]

made to

[ortolan]

post something

[ortolan]

about suspects

[ortolan]

not letting

[ortolan]

him lurk

[ortolan]

to endgame

[ortolan]

Budja not

[ortolan]

suspicious for

[ortolan]

pressuring him

[ortolan]

1156- votes

[ortolan]

Vote K7

[ortolan]

contribute or

[ortolan]

die.

[ortolan]

2.5 days

[ortolan]

K7 why

[ortolan]

shouldn't we

[ortolan]

lynch you?

[ortolan]

Vote: Yes

[ortolan]

k7 claim

[ortolan]

What exactly

[ortolan]

was your

[ortolan]

meta point?

[ortolan]

good, more

[ortolan]

votes please

[ortolan]

your fault,

[ortolan]

claim please

[ortolan]

Kill: Kmd

I got a guilty

[ortolan]

what guys, I SWEAR he was a miller.

Vote: ort

ShadowGirl, come on down

Can you cope with the pressure?

[ortolan]

Yay! Good game

I'lll let them out themselves

[ortolan]

Max and DGB, Yer

This was an interesting game to play.

I actually think the setup was balanced if a bit swingy.

Remember, you almost lynched me day one.

There were a few things which screwed town over:

- The fact BSG got replaced by Santos who was then effectively modkilled for not making a decision in time. BSG might well have killed me also.

- The timing of the Mute Mime Mafia day made it harder to scrutinise my cop claim (although I think I would have gotten away with it up until I did anyway, the town in general was too inactive).

- We got basically a free day/night kill cycle in Bad Idea mafia in exchange for trading me off without any links to my scumbuddies, which seemed very good considering I was already under heavy scrutiny anyhow.

I almost regretted choosing ShadowGirl because of how much DGB had attacked her during Mute Mime Mafia, I was wondering she'd take the opportunity to get her back when I re-read. All worked out well in the end though

Thanks for modding K-Scope!

[ortolan]

For a while I'd just been considering kamikazeing bt just claiming a fake guilty and getting someone else lynched then myself lynched. It's not like I was gonna stay alive long having claimed cop and continually refusing to get night-killed. The main problem was just my concern that it would look like a scum gambit to get a final mislynch in LYOL (even though ironically we only had 3 so we weren't in LYOL). The fact bad idea came around just seemed perfect timing for the self-sacrifice. fyi I thought the game was going to be played out as bad idea mafia- not just one kill but everyone killing and only getting one bullet until either the scum are eliminated or are in the majority/equal to the number of townies.

[ortolan]

LuL

you got in good with the timing for busing me- it was optimal play so I didn't mind at all. What did you say though?