Mini 729 - WaTR Mafia - Game Over!

[freeko]

I really dont care about what you have to say korts. Yuor death will tell me everything I need to know.

---

Mod-Edit Votecount 2-1

Korts - 1 (freeko)
Prom King - 1 (BSG)

Not Voting - 8

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

[Korts]

@Korts
Was there nothing else mentioned besides that?

No. I paraphrased everything I got.

PK, you shouldn't ask power roles to come forward with results. They can claim when they judge it's optimal.

I'm also wondering why mafia killed Occam. If anything, one of the claimed masons would've been a far better target.

And I don't like freeko pushing my lynch based on me having watched. Pray tell, what would it tell you if I flipped scum? I don't see how that would give you more information other than hints at association.

[raider8169]

I really dont care about what you have to say korts. Yuor death will tell me everything I need to know.

I was thinking of going this route but it only hurts town. How will rushing into his lynch help us more then hurt us?

[Megaflareon]

Unless he does flip mafia,I don't see how.

[freeko]

Its more of a check than anything else. and to that extent i think its real simple (and pretty much wifom as well). Either korts is telling the truth and he flips town, or he is not and he is a scum. I am very heavily leaning twoards teh scum side right now. Problem is there is only one way to truly find out.

[Korts]

Its more of a check than anything else. and to that extent i think its real simple (and pretty much wifom as well). Either korts is telling the truth and he flips town, or he is not and he is a scum. I am very heavily leaning twoards teh scum side right now. Problem is there is only one way to truly find out.

Huh. It's not like you won't have someone else watching next night to confirm my story.

I really don't like freeko's willingness to lynch me for a "check". For that matter, we should lynch everyone who claims to be town following that logic, because they're either town telling the truth or scum and lying.

[Rhinox]

Prom king, I want to hear what your role PM says about your association with freeko. You still haven't confirmed his claim.

Korts, why weren't you watching when Occam disappeared last night?

[Korts]

Prom king, I want to hear what your role PM says about your association with freeko. You still haven't confirmed his claim.

Korts, why weren't you watching when Occam disappeared last night?

I had no decision in it. I never received any notification of abilities or request for a choice, all I got was a PM at the end of the night containing what I have already paraphrased in my first post of today.

[Juls]

So this is my scum-read on everyone thus far. I have some questions inter-mixed in there and if you want a tl;dr you can just look at the "status" portion under everyone's name. Note though that this is my scumread, not my townread. But in addition to the status's please look at Occam's section because I have a theory about his status.

Rogue Shenanigans (Megaflareon)

================================
-Chose a path without consultation. It was the first post of the game so I assume he did it because it had little effect on the game as the mod indicated. I have no problem with it.
-Hasn't posted in this game since Monday, January 12 but was posting elsewhere. Has since been replaced by Megaflareon.

@Megaflareon: Right now I see your predecessor as a lurker but I would like to hear your thoughts/opinions on D1/N1.

Status: Lurker/To be Determined by Replacement

Prom King

================================

Summary

-In his first post he voted Korts based on "his first reaction" to Rogue Shenanigans picking the path.
-In his second post he repeated his reason for voting Korts but still didn't tell us what that reaction was (later revealed to be Korts claiming scum in Random Stage)
-In his third post, he puts an OMGUS vote on BSG.
-In his fourth post he claims to know freeko is innocent implying a mason pairing (later corroborated by freeko)
-In his most recent post he asks if anyone got any valuable info during the night and assumes Occam was killed by Mafia.

My Thoughts

- PK has NOT said that he is town. He has only confirmed that they are masons. Furthermore, even if he did say he was town it is clear (based on freeko's comments) that they are unconfirmed of each others roles. I don't think we should assume PK to be confirmed town at this point. Remember freeko said this:

cannot directly quote my role pm, so I cannot really answer it better. He knows my alignment (town), but I do not know his it seems. The last line of my pm says something to that effect. That I am not sure of his alignment.

-In his fifth post he mentions that he thinks Occam was killed by Mafia, I have a different theory on this (see Occam's section).

Status: Lurker/Suspicious

Occam

================================
-There was a wagon on Lunar_Tick that he didn't agree with. OK that is fine, I agree there was not much to go on. But Occam spent an enormous amount of time claiming everyone (or most) on that wagon must be scum simply because he had a different view of it. So he votes my predecessor Kiro. That's fine too. He felt the wagon was scummy and that Kiro was the best place to put his vote. What bothers me is that Kiro posted exactly 3 posts, the last of which was post #81. He moved on from there to other things later but in post #169 he puts his vote back on Kiro, a player who clearly abandoned the game. It doesn't seem like a very smart place to put his vote as there was a lot more suspicious behavior going on than his reason for voting kiro (a poor excuse for hopping on a wagon).

I would like to think he is scum but the following leads me to believe he isn't:

I can actually confirm that the two (or one tonight, one the next night) are town. I don't think I should fully claim but I can if necessary.

I think Occam's role allows him to do something to confirm people but it might be a day investigation role? I don't think he is dead. He just "wandered off". I also think this was a breadcrumb:

And I don't want to look like a shepherd here but I do think at least a couple more people should join this wagon.

Maybe his role is shepperd? What actions would be associated with a shepperd? I don't want to be accused of rolefishing but I think since he is gone if he comes back he will have to explain it anyway so we can maybe get a jump on the conversation and try to figure it out?

Status: Unknown/Lost?

Sipylus

================================
I don't really have a read on Sipylus yet. He had a couple of posts that discussed the wagons-of-the-moment. He disagreed with the LT one, and agreed with the freeko and MM wagons. I tended to agree with his posts except for the LT wagon. I think the LT wagon was meant to pressure LT into being a little more helpful/alive, not necessarily to get him lynched.

Status: No Read Yet

BSG

================================
-In post #24 he presents a very weak argument to try to paint Occam as scum:

Precisely. It's printed right up there. And you missed it. The only way how you could have missed it is if you didn't read it. And that's scummy.
Besides, I find it very scummy that you posted without knowing the exact details.

-In his most recent vote he voted Prom King "based on his last post". Could you explain this vote a little better?

He really isn't giving much to go on here...

Status: No Read Yet

Lunar_Tick

================================
-Has added NOTHING to the game. I don't even think I can classify him as a lurker. I hate when people join games and don't participate. It makes the towns job so much more difficult.

Status: Non-existant

raider8169

================================
-I see a lot of filler-posts here and not very much scum-hunting. He has 26 total posts none longer than 3-4 sentences and most are one liners. I realize that is some people's style but I really would like to see more scum hunting. I suggest others read his posts in isolation and see if you agree.

Status: Slightly Suspicious

Korts

================================
I see two questionable things that Korts did over the course of D1. First in response to MonkeyMan's claim:

unvote

I think cleric is supposed to be doctor applied to the theme. But on second thought, I can't imagine sheep as clerics.

vote: MonkeyMan

This was all irrelevant because the L-1 vote was really the hammer but it just seems as if you unvoted and then when you noticed everyone else wasn't really following suit you reversed your tracks. If you really thought there was even a remote chance of him being a doctor, why revote?

And the second thing is deciding to watch while discussion was ongoing. I find it questionable but I am not necessarily sure I classify it as scummy yet.

Status: Questionable

freeko

================================
-In his first post (post #13) he votes Rogue Shenanigans for choosing the path. He lets this vote ride until making an admitted OMGUS vote on Occam 167 posts later. His next vote was part of the MonkeyMan wagon and is now voting Korts becuase somehow he thinks Korts death will tell him if he was lying about the watchman role.

1) Letting a random vote ride with little to nothing to go on for most of D1 is not very townie.
2) Replacing your random vote with a OMGUS vote late in D1 is not helpful and tells me you only have your interests in mind instead of the town. You were annoyed so you wanted to get rid of your annoyance.
3) Just for the record I don't think the MM wagon was scummy. He acted very scummy.
4) The only way to confirm if Korts is lying or not about the watchman role is to wait until someone else holds the role. He is ineligible tonight so it is guaranteed someone else will have more information on D3.
5) If you are town, play better! I want to give you the benefit of the doubt due to your claim of being an innocent mason but you are pinging my scumdar pretty hard.

Instead of rehashing your role-fishing/fence-sitting, I would rather just refer back to Rhinox's post #149 as I agree with it fully.

Finally, this post regarding the watchman really bothers me:

Now that I think about it, it might be better if I suggest prom king over myself as the person who does the night watch.

Um Really?...Prom King...the guy you cant confirm as innocent or scum? This is anti-town. I believe you should be suspicious of Prom King because you yourself said your role says you cannot confirm his alignment.

Status: Slightly Less Suspicious than Prom King...but only slightly

Rhinox

================================
I have to start Rhinox with a disclaimer. Rhinox is VERY good at this game. I was in the game where he was serial killer and totally thought he was town (I was the cop btw, but replaced out). People who can be so convincing at anti-town roles make me nervous.

The only thing I want to note for future study is that he seemed to lead the charge on putting doubt into the freeko/Prom King masons claim. I want to note it because it will be interesting to see in the long run if this was intented to make town doubt them or if it was good townie discussion. To be determined.

The post that started the discussion:

I shouldn't have to ask you to spell it out, but just to be sure...freeko, does your role state that you know PK is town? Same for PK... do you know for sure freeko is town? Without that certainty, the mason claim doesn't mean much.

Status: Makes me nervous

================================

In conclusion, I feel right now that Prom King has not been confirmed as town by freeko (and I am not really comfortable with freeko either at the moment). I feel he is the best place to put my vote for now.

Vote: Prom King

Mod: Please prod Lunar_Tick

Done.

P.S. I don't typically post books but I am starting a day late so wanted to make sure you guys got my thoughts thus far.

[Rhinox]

I have to start Rhinox with a disclaimer. Rhinox is VERY good at this game. I was in the game where he was serial killer and totally thought he was town (I was the cop btw, but replaced out). People who can be so convincing at anti-town roles make me nervous.

The only thing I want to note for future study is that he seemed to lead the charge on putting doubt into the freeko/Prom King masons claim. I want to note it because it will be interesting to see in the long run if this was intented to make town doubt them or if it was good townie discussion. To be determined.

The post that started the discussion:

Well, someone thought I was scum that game you're referring to... I did get vigged N1...

Also, I'm not putting doubt into the mason claim... actually, I was arguing that masons who claim D1 are usually indeed masons, and not lying scum. It was important to know whether the masons were confirmed or not.

I'm also wondering... Why is it a problem if I was "leading the charge on putting doubt into the freeko/Prom King masons claim" (which I wasn't doing), if you are doubting their claims (i.e. you're voting PK and you say freeko is slightly less suspicious than PK.)? Why do you doubt their claim?

Also, Juls, I thought I remembered you saying a while back you were through with mafiascum... I'm glad to see you decided to stick around.

Its more of a check than anything else. and to that extent i think its real simple (and pretty much wifom as well). Either korts is telling the truth and he flips town, or he is not and he is a scum. I am very heavily leaning twoards teh scum side right now. Problem is there is only one way to truly find out.

This is about the worst reason I've ever heard for lynching someone...What reason do you have to suspect korts is scum? This is no different than singling anyone else out and saying, "eh, their either scum, or their not". If this is really the route you want to go, we'd be much better off lynching either you or PK... at least that way, we might confirm a townie (or catch a second scum).

[Juls]

I'm also wondering... Why is it a problem if I was "leading the charge on putting doubt into the freeko/Prom King masons claim" (which I wasn't doing), if you are doubting their claims (i.e. you're voting PK and you say freeko is slightly less suspicious than PK.)? Why do you doubt their claim?

I am not sure of their claim...my comment about you was just to note it. It could be scum trying to confuse town or it could be a very good observation. I am leaning toward the latter at this point.

Also, Juls, I thought I remembered you saying a while back you were through with mafiascum... I'm glad to see you decided to stick around.

I took a couple months away. I am trying to just not be so sensitive this time around. :p Sucks being a girl sometimes.

[freeko]

The reason you vote for PK is that I cannot confirm PK while PK can confirm me. I also got NOTHING from PK in the night discussion, which worries me slightly. Either he is going to be replaced, or he is hiding something from me.

So my scumdar goes something like this. I will gain information by the lynching of RS,Korts, or PK. Obviously maybe the replacement for RS could offer up something, but until then... Maybe I am way off but those are the ones that stick out to me as doing something that I do not particularly see as being a town player.

[raider8169]

The reason you vote for PK is that I cannot confirm PK while PK can confirm me. I also got NOTHING from PK in the night discussion, which worries me slightly. Either he is going to be replaced, or he is hiding something from me.

So my scumdar goes something like this. I will gain information by the lynching of RS,Korts, or PK. Obviously maybe the replacement for RS could offer up something, but until then... Maybe I am way off but those are the ones that stick out to me as doing something that I do not particularly see as being a town player.

I dont like this, what information would "you" get that would make their lynches worth it? This seems more like a case just to lynch someone instead of lynching scum. What did they do that you do not see a town player doing?

[freeko]

Now I will make this clear, I dont care much for common logic. Its my logic, and with 7 people still left in the game, I think it would be best to get more information. As I said before, the only way I can get information is to lynch one of them so we know what thier role is and if they were lying or not.

For example; (completely theoretical)

IF player X is scum, then I assume that those who are associated with them are most likely scum as well. THEN I go after them next.

or

IF player X is town aligned, then I am obviously wrong. THEN I admit my mistake and move along with the game.

Right now that player X is korts for me.

[raider8169]

IF player X is town aligned, then I am obviously wrong. THEN I admit my mistake and move along with the game.

You really think other people would let you move along with the game? Why can we not pick the most townie like person to watch the following night and they can confirm that Korts was telling the truth or lieing.

[Rhinox]

Prom king, I want to hear what your role PM says about your association with freeko. You still haven't confirmed his claim.

PK, seriously, participate. You've claimed to be a town role, so start acting like it. Quit giving us reasons to doubt you.

This is not helpful:

Did anyone get any valuable info last night??

Also, I'm assuming Occ was killed by the mafia.

Its only fishing and speculation. Why don't you try making a case against someone?

I'm guessing LT is going to be replaced.

Megaflare: more out of you would be nice. Since you're a replacement, maybe you can make a post similar in style to juls where she summarized her scum reads on everyone.

Sipylus: is this player still in the game? or was he replaced? prod if he is, hasn't posted since the 19th.

[Juls]

Sipylus was replaced in another game I am in but it was in confirmation stages. Don't know if it was by request or not?

On a general note, I am not sure what the problem with this game is with the lack of conversation and all the replacing. I find it to be extremely interesting (props to our mod!) especially with Occam wondering off, it has really had my thoughts spinning.

[Jebus]

Lunar Tick may be replaced soon, having not posted anywhere in a while, while Sipylus has been prodded. Megaflareon should post more, but cannot be prodded yet.

And thanks, Juls.

[Megaflareon]

Sorry,been a bit busy with stuff. Gonna start being more active.

As for D1/N1 opinions,I'll review the earlier posts and post again...but later,it's bed time now :\.

[Korts]

Sorry about the little posting. Last of the exams. Anyway, freeko, what did I do that you don't see as pro-town, other than having watched tonight? I ask because the only case you made against me is "lynch him so I can get a clearer view".

mod:

how recently was Rogue Shenanigans prodded?

This was all irrelevant because the L-1 vote was really the hammer but it just seems as if you unvoted and then when you noticed everyone else wasn't really following suit you reversed your tracks. If you really thought there was even a remote chance of him being a doctor, why revote?

And the second thing is deciding to watch while discussion was ongoing. I find it questionable but I am not necessarily sure I classify it as scummy yet.

For the first part, what are you talking about the L-1 vote being the hammer? As for the justification, I explained it quite clearly I thought. The claim of "cleric" seemed to fit only marginally with the theme, like a fakeclaim made up on the spot.

Second; I didn't see any productive discussion about deciding to watch; nor did I expect to see any such thing considering we didn't know anything about the mechanics tied to watching nor the actual utility. It was basically the same motivation as Rogue Shenanigans' first post; try and prevent the game from stalling due to baseless speculation on a mechanic.

freeko: tell me why the assumption that if I'm scum, I'm absolutely lying about the watch.

[BSG]

@Juls
PK was fishing in his latest post. This is a huge scum tell in my book. Include the content in his posts and him ignoring our questions and he definitly deserves my vote.

[freeko]

Korts, if you read the flavor of his lynching, It only required 6 of us (or one less than normal) to lynch him. At least that is what it looked like to me. It just seems that you are doing nothing but making decisions in this game that are totally one sided. You are thinking about yourself and not the good of the "town" as a whole, I think.

[raider8169]

Korts, if you read the flavor of his lynching, It only required 6 of us (or one less than normal) to lynch him. At least that is what it looked like to me. It just seems that you are doing nothing but making decisions in this game that are totally one sided. You are thinking about yourself and not the good of the "town" as a whole, I think.

So explain how lynching him would be the best thing for town to do? He did the same thing RS did it seems.

[Korts]

Korts, if you read the flavor of his lynching, It only required 6 of us (or one less than normal) to lynch him. At least that is what it looked like to me

Are you saying I should have forseen that?

It just seems that you are doing nothing but making decisions in this game that are totally one sided. You are thinking about yourself and not the good of the "town" as a whole, I think.

Explain the plural, please. Other than the watching incident, was there anything else? Also, if you

do

have something else, I expect quotes and interpretations.

[Juls]

For the first part, what are you talking about the L-1 vote being the hammer? As for the justification, I explained it quite clearly I thought. The claim of "cleric" seemed to fit only marginally with the theme, like a fakeclaim made up on the spot.

From the way I read, and I guess I could be reading wrong because I joined late and wasn't there as it transpired, but I was under the impression that the L-1 vote that you cast was actually the hammer vote unbeknownst to you or anyone else. When you removed your vote and then replaced it, it did not matter because he had long been dead. Is that correct?