Newbie 732 - Abandoned

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vote: secret agent

because you're a double agent, aren't you?

hi, i'm one of the ics in this game, orangepenguin is the other. if anyone has any questions about how the game of mafia works, or how it works on this forum, please don't hesitate to ask, we'll answer to the best of our abilities.

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actarus - what mafia site do you usually play at

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well, until i get an answer to my question at least, i'm going to

unvote, vote: actarus

a random lynch is very obviously not in the town's best interest. 7 chances out of 9 to hit town. i'd like an explanation for why you'd even suggest that.

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guys, don't be so scared of a second vote. for the mafia to quicklynch from that point, they would both have to pile on, becoming extremely obvious.

i'd still like actarus to explain why he thinks we should be

random

lynching. there will be nothing random about any lynch i'm involved with.

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actarus, what do you consider to be a random lynch, then? any lynch without some kind of info provided by power roles?

if thats the case, we have very different opinions, and you should look more closely at the possible setups we have going because we're almost definitely going to need some of your so called "random" lynches, which i say aren't random at all.

furpants tom, have you played mafia before, and on what website?

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ok, we disagree on some basic theory then. i don't think that today's lynch will be without meaning. the discussion that goes on between now and valentine's day will give us plenty of information to work with. have you ever played a totally vanilla setup? if so, how did you do anything nonrandomly? you look at player actions and interactions, and you try to deduce whether these actions would be coming from somebody in the uninformed majority or the informed minority.

unvote, vote: furpants tom

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Secret Agent probably got vanilla townie, lost interest, and we'll never see them again.

thats a really, really dangerous assumption to make. there are many reasons for someone to flake from a game, especially their first game on this site, and disinterest because of being vanilla is only one of those. if anything, i wouldn't expect a disinterested vanilla to flake until a week or two into the game. i'd say its more likely secret agent signed up and forgot about this website altogether. no matter what, ignoring him completely as a scum candidate based on an out of game event is a very bad idea.

Once we have firm, objective reference points - corpses and their roles - then we can dig back through the first day's information and figure out what's meaningful, and what's fluff.

if we pay attention, i don't think we have to wait until day two in order to find meaningful information. there are subtle differences in the way that town and mafia act, even before bodies start piling up.

Incidentally, if I was to be suspicious of anyone, it would be the near-lurkers - blizzire, honko, and infinis.

ok, two things - first, its way too early to accuse anyone of lurking, the game has barely gotten started. second, voting lurkers is a very safe scum play. you've got a ready excuse for the vote (you were lurking!) and if the player continues to lurk, or flakes altogether, your vote just sits there gathering dust and you don't have to get involved in the real arguments which make it possible to discern motives.

the way you're just moving your vote from one lurker to the next really looks to me like you're just trying to find a safe, out of the way place to park it. and your ready acceptance of honko's non-answer to your inquiry looks like you're not actually interested in discerning his alignment, you're just moving your vote around to look like you're participating in the scumhunt.

i'd also like to hear your thoughts on the vote for you placed by infinis. you completely ignored it. hoping it will go away if you don't say anything?

so, my vote stays, because i think you have a much higher than random chance of being scum.

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Nobody has stood out as suspicious to me yet, that's why I didn't post anything. I don't think there's much to say on Day 1 unless someone makes a big mistake.

what do you think of the exchange between myself and actarus. do you think it makes either of us more likely to be scum? to be town?

what do you think of infinis' vote for furpants tom?

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real post tonight after super bowl

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superbowl involved too much beer, real post tomorrow

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yo, catching up right now from my last post, expect a postzilla soonish

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And chances are we will lynch the wrong person - I'd rather we acknowledge that today instead of getting the idea we can solve the puzzle right off the bat.

see, this is both unnecessarily defeatist and scummy. you're making excuses for what you're already saying will be a mislynch.

If we're going to have a chance of hanging scum tomorrow, we need 15 or more pages of conversation - and votes - to analyse by the 14th. It's pretty clear I don't believe in leaving my vote hanging around, and I've hardly been reticent about getting involved in debate, have I?

i disagree, and i don't see where you're pulling this arbitrary number of pages that we'll supposedly need tomorrow out of. regardless of how many or few pages we have, we'll have the information we need. i think we already do.

3 weeks seem like a long time for a day. I am used to playing a day that last 24 hours on a different site, so this should be interesting.

you guys are actually lucky that this game started with a deadline in place, thats new for newbie games. way it used to be, there was no deadline, and days very often dragged on for a month or more.

roflcopter and luchs, I like the way you work, keep it up.

this feels like you're trying to buddy up to me and luchs

Come on, guys; quit playing so conservatively. If you lot don't start throwing some mud around, we'll never see what sticks.

I've given you all plenty to work with, so far - if there's a pattern to my accusations, you'll continue to get a steady stream of data to discern it. But blizzire, Honko and orangepenguin, you're giving us next to nothing to go on. Infinis and Actarus, it wouldn't hurt to have a bit more info from you two, as well. And tucking fypo is brand new, so some initial thoughts would be appreciated. roflcopter and luchs, I like the way you work, keep it up.

Oh, and specifically - Infinis, what makes you think I'm scumbuddies with Actarus or roflcopter?

I feel you are back-and-forth a lot between the both of them. From my limited experience, it usually boils down to two voices battling it out and the town picking sides Day 1. When a third person gets in the mix, I feel that at least one of these three people is scum, if not more.

woah.

fos: infinis

. this seems like a totally arbitrary way to declare that "one of these three people is scum." you're not even using what we're saying, just the fact that the three of us are talking. and this is a clever way for scum to manipulate mislynches. you can keep trying to lynch the three of us saying "well, he wasn't scum, so i'll try the next one."

That being said, I felt the fear and/or anger over that second vote during random, so I'll

unvote. FoS luchs

instead of vote since he did try to explain his actions.

and why are you afraid to vote? don't want to have a record in the vote tallies? an fos isn't good for much if you're not willing to actually vote a person. foses are much better serving an auxiliary to your vote, as in, vote this person, but i'm also suspcious of you so fos.

roflcopter: I like the way he asks questions, even if no-one really answers them. Trying to pull strategic information out of individuals is good town play, but mostly pointless for the mob; so unless his questions are pure fluff, or cunningly designed to sow division and distrust (which they're not), I like him for town. Actually, I kinda like him for Cop.

woah! red alert!

why

would you ever say that you think a player is the cop?? to me this looks like a message for your scumbuddy.

Furpants saying he has some "secret info" he won't share until we post enough doesn't look good to me. Why withhold information from the rest of the town? You've been pushing votes on all the quiet people so far because you want more data out on the playing field. That's fair enough, but then it seems kind of hypocritical if you're keeping your thoughts to yourself.

i strongly agree with this statement

Alright, I want to spice things up a bit. I am the cop.

I demand protection tonight. At this point I am either going to investigate OrangePenguin or Infinis.

uh........
if your claim is true, you just totally neutralized all the usefullness of your role. did you look at the setup?

This game uses an F11 setup. One of the following four setups was chosen at random:

A) 1 Mafia Goon & 1 Mafia Roleblocker vs 5 Townies, 1 Doctor, & 1 Cop
B)

1 Mafia Goon & 1 Mafia Roleblocker vs 7 Townies

C) 2 Mafia Goons vs 6 Townies & 1 Cop
D)

2 Mafia Goons vs 6 Townies & 1 Doctor

notice anything? if you are the cop, there are only two possible setups. either there is not a doctor, in which case you die before any useful investigations happen, or there is a mafia roleblocker, in which case you'll never actually get a successful investigation.

Unvote
Vote Actarus

*Puts money where mouth is*

Go for it, but my warning to you is that once my role is revealed, it'll make you look VERY bad.

this is a very big appeal to fear. super scummy. i can support an actarus lynch based on this post alone.

so after catching up, i'm still of the opinion that furpants_tom is mafia and needs to be lynched. infinis and actarus are both also pinging my scumdar in big ways, and i would be willing to switch my vote to either of them if it becomes necessary to ensure a lynch at deadline. i'm hoping this won't be the case however.

on the subject of waiting around twiddling our thumbs til deadline, here's how i see it. for now, discussion is flowing, thats good. but if discussion dries up or a consensus is formed on who to lynch, crying "we still have x days til deadline we should use them all!" is unnecessary stalling. i've seen too many games become lurkfests because people demand that every available day before deadline be utilized. i'd rather just reach a majority lynch when a majority consensus is realized. and thats all i have to say about that.

who's scum 1:

furpants_tom, reasons already provided in posts

who's scum 2:

infinis, reasons already provided in posts

who's town 1:

honko, his post i qft'd is right on the money and very protown

who's town 2:

luchs, just a general vibe, i'm much less sure about this one than honko

@tom, that was a good exercise, and having everyone's opinions forced out of them like that will be a goodmine of information on later days, but withholding some bit of information and using it as a specter to coerce cooperation is terribly scummy.

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I see now you're willing to post after you're accused of the possibility of being scum.

are you trying to imply that my not posting for a few days has something to do with my alignment? if so, come out and say it, so i can throw the book at you.

I stated that it seems to always play out that way, a scum goads on two townies, and by the end of the back and forthing, the town picks sides and we mislynch.

and i stated that that is a very convenient opinion to have, because it allows you to list the three most vocal people without any real reasoning and say "hey guys i bet one of them is scum, dunno which"

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because no sensible mafiosi hammers.

you can't be serious. are you just going to give a blanket pass to whoever casts the final vote today? a sensible mafioso does whatever the hell he can to allay suspicions and win the game, including hammering when the situation calls for it. i don't know where you're getting your ideas about mafia theory but you're leaving a lot of room for scum to hide in.

I was; because I think you're probably legit. Maybe.

sorry, but your buddying will not be dislodging my vote from you. nice try though.

It's bad logic; yes. But I'm still not convinced Infinis is scum.

as far as i can tell, all you are convinced of is that we're going to end up lynching a townsperson today. your opinions on everyone seem to be safely middling. do you think the faulty logic makes infinis more likely to be scum?

Why on earth would I be sending a message to my scumbuddy in the public thread?

because you think you're likely to get lynched today is the most plausible reason. you would not have the chance to night talk with your buddy and say "hey i got cop tells off of roflcopter, kill him." this way even if you are lynched, your buddy knows who you wanted killed.

And why wouldn't I say a player is the cop?

um, if you're town, its because if you're right, you're just telling the mafia. as with fypo's cop claim, you calling somebody out as being a likely cop is just going to neutralize them if they really are the cop.

at the very least, maybe the mafia will leave me alone if I look like a lynch-magnet.

this statement benefits tom-scum far more than it benefits tom-town. you're making excuses for scummy play. and, as you so anticlimactically revealed, you claim to be a townie, so if you're really town you should not be trying to

avoid

nightkills, you should be trying to

draw

them so the power roles don't.

tom, claiming vanilla on day one when you've only got one vote is a

bad idea

. if you're town, you're narrowing down the pool of potential power roles for the scum to shoot at. and its the safest claim for a scum to make when he's not at lynch-1, because its not going to get counterclaimed.

i'm waiting for other people to realize voting for furpants_tom is where its at.

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haven't had a chance to keep up since my last post, reading and posting tomorrow

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posting this afternoon

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I'll say it. You ducked a debate that was giving us some interesting info, and you've popped up now to change the subject to me personally. That's just a little dodgy.

i didn't duck anything, and i didn't change the subject either. my subject had been you all along.

Yep; I wouldn't be voting for them tomorrow, even if it was you. Hammering on N1 is dumb scum play; so I wouldn't be voting for them unless they revealed themselves as particularly dumb scum.

if you're town thats just a stupid thing to say. if you're scum, it makes sense, as you'll either be making a friend of whatever townie drops the hammer or giving the blanket pass to your scumpartner.

I believe the town wins or loses on the information the can gather and share. The mafia will always know more; so withholding information as a townie hurts the town more than it does the mafia

i agree with this part to a large extent. the part i don't agree on is..

Roleclaiming is more complex, of course; but I don't believe there is any advantage to the town in keeping my unverified thoughts to myself.

this. you claim and the cop claim were both uncalled for and have definitely hurt the town. this is just a theory disagreement between us though, so there's really no point wasting space discussing it further.

I'm not sure what you think; but you seem to want everyone to keep just about anything important to themselves. I fail to see how this benefits the town in any way.

that is certainly not true. you're mischaracterizing my position re: roleclaims

How is posting more considered to be scummy? The more that is posted, the more information you get.

I think that if you are a civ, then you should try your best to post as much as you can.

Right now I think Acatarus is mafia. His reactions are very unconvincing and screams mafia IMO.

IF I don't get lynched (I'm curious if it'll go through), you're more than welcome to investigate me.

just need to point out that scum would be free to say this with no fear because if fypo is really the cop his investigation won't go through no matter what

What's your experience with day phase 1? Specifically conversation-wise?

it varies a lot, but the fact that there are games where scum is caught day one is evidence that day one conversation is not worthless. newbie games are harder to get going than others because of the communal inexperience, but if you look at examples on this site of other games you'll see that day one conversation can be very meaningful. i'm doing my best to provide meaningful input here as well.

and from here the game devolves into "everyone is lurking" posts. i'd still really like to see a furpants_tom lynch come from today, but i agree that actarus has been scummy and if necessary i'll change my vote to him before deadline to ensure we get a lynch. this day ending in a no lynch would be absolutely the worst thing that could happen.

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the vote change aside, that last post from furpants tom is one big appeal to emotion. looks like the last ditch effort of scum on the chopping block.

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this game requires more of a time investment per post than my other games. i'll have that kind of time tomorrow.

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i'm out of town and posting this from my phone. i'll be back home on the 26th, i won't be able to really read or post before then.

mod

: please consider me v/la.

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Yes, rofl's case is that I'm Mafia because I try to convince people to disclose information, and disclose information myself. For a while, I was scum because I wasn't disclosing fast enough, but then I was scum because I disclosed the wrong thing.

He doesn't want us talking, and has done nothing but attack people who do. Take a look through his posts - what has he actually contributed?

you still continue to horribly misrepresent my position against you, but for now there are more important matters.

I see, exonerating the hammerer preemptively, very town. Now I regret not being the hammer...which leads me to...

@orangepenguin Nice flip/flop for the hammer, risky gambit...unless Furpants is your scum buddy?

yeah, i suppose his flip flop to become the hammer looks bad in light of tom's public opinion on hammer voters, but he's an ic and i expect he knows that one persons strange policy opinion would not save him just because he was the hammer. now you on the other hand did this:

Let's see

Unvote

and Ill vote before deadline, again testing a theory here.

very, very late, basically forcing what would have been a decision for you between tom and actarus, and automatically making

you the hammer

if op hadn't switched wagons instead. so your attack on orangepenguin for being the hammer vote looks mighty hypocritical when you were obviously posturing for that position yourself.

Good reason to kill tucking_fypo, for you or scum who wants to frame you

but... you were the other person fypo named as a possible investigation, so literally the exact same thing could be said against you. it seems that you're trying desperately to deflect any and all attention that could come from facts that would seem to apply to both of you solely onto him.

Desperately signaling scum buddy at L-1?

this is just a huge, huge reach. you're just groping for some more crap to fling at op.

Well, I think Honko is town. I realise it's WIFOM, but he seems to have known about the Post 87 easter egg prior to nightfall, and Typo was still killed. I think the mafia would have picked someone else for the nk if they hadn't thought he might be the cop.

this i agree with

I'm very certain that blizzire is town.

this i really don't get at all. blizzire has barely posted anything, so i don't know what you think there is to read on him, let alone be certain of.

I mentioned way before I was placed in the postition of hammer that I had a theory. I thought that the maifa, was not coordinated enough to lynch either of Actarus or Furpants earlier. The reason being that one of the two were mafia and the other wagon had not hit the critical mass of town votes to push through a lynch with mafia votes.

you make it sound like being in the position of hammerer was an accidental thing brought on by somebody else's actions, but you seem to have unvoted at the opportune time very intentionally, and it was most certainly brought about only by your own unvote close to the deadline. you can't rewrite history just because its convenient to push your case against op

If I was scum I would have hammered immediately and gone oops my bad. I made a simple mistake, sorry...and then redirect to an innocent townie. Hmm, sounds familiar.

this is a classic example of wifom. "if i was scum i wouldn't do action x, but i did action x, so i can't possibly be scum!" unfortunately for you, logic doesn't work quite like that.

vote: infinis

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i have more to respond to, which will come in a bit, but this

Moreover, every accusation against him ends something like: "... or he's just incompetent."

is incorrect. my attacks had nothing to do with incompetence and everything to do with how infinis' actions make him scum.

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i'm prodded. better post tomorrow. been busy.

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i don't have the time to give this game the attention it really deserves, which is unfortunate. hopefully during the weekend. if not, i'll request replacement so you guys can have the caliber of ic you deserve.

posts 251 and 252 really catch my attention. furpants has basically no real reason at all to dislike the infinis votes, except for the fact that people were

not

defending him. tom, who exactly do you expect to defend infinis? if everyone legitimately finds him scummy, maybe the simplest explanation is because he's scum. the lack of anyone else defending him probably has something to do with him being caught, not whatever cockeyed conspiracy reason you're touting. but i'm really impressed with how you managed to totally derail the wagon on him without actually providing any reason.

as for the wagon on me, well lets see - blizzire i still haven't been able to figure out

what

the guy really thinks because he's barely posted anything. post 271 is especially juicy, with all that conditional language leaving him all sorts of outs for when i inevitably don't flip mafia. and he's followed with the one two punch of tom and infinis. i find it hard to believe that two scum would so blatantly bandwagon the same person, but it does feel like the two of them are doing whatever they can to keep pressure off of infinis right now.

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sorry if that post was a little bit rambly, i had two very strong long island iced teas not long before i got home tonight

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even though infinis seems like a better lynch, a no lynch would be catastrophic

unvote, vote: furpants tom

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crap

well, hopefully the mod is lenient with the deadline.