Mini 727 - Mafia in Standardville - Game Over

[Xdaamno]

How can you have no opinion on Panzer?

...

[Artem]

Artem, if the only reason your voting for me is because I've been lurking you are sadly mistaken. I've been V/LA. I was visiting my girlfriend all weekend. Well, weekend plus a couple of days, Friday until Tuesday. I only posted Monday night to pickup prods I knew were coming.

Panzer, if you think that lurking is the only reason I'm voting, I'd suggest you read my last post. Lurking is nothing but a one sentence blurb at the end of that post.

How can you have no opinion on Panzer?

I would also like to remind folks that Panzer casually dismissed my earlier arguments against Lowell. If Panzer flips scum, I think Lowell has a good chance of being a scum-buddy.

[Lynx The Antithesis]

Xdaamno, are you gonna just not do your promised player analysis now that a convenient new wagon has formed that could save you today?

I see Charter's point that Panzer has latched on to many of the arguments of the day. I still think Xdaamno's the better lynch at the moment. He's jumped on another wagon(Panzer's now). Seems all his play is driven by a strong desire for self preservation. Not townie behavior to me.

[LlamaFluff]

votecount

Xdaamno (5) - Lynx the Antithesis, Danchaofan, Panzerjager, Lowell, Tubby216
Panzerjager (4) - Xdaamno, Artem, Charter, Darox
Artem (1) - Afatchic
Darox (1) - Artifex

Not Voting (1) - Master Ruck

Danchaofan has been prodded

[tubby216]

Xdaamno, are you gonna just not do your promised player analysis now that a convenient new wagon has formed that could save you today?

I see Charter's point that Panzer has latched on to many of the arguments of the day. I still think Xdaamno's the better lynch at the moment. He's jumped on another wagon(Panzer's now). Seems all his play is driven by a strong desire for self preservation. Not townie behavior to me.

agreed i like this post

[Xdaamno]

Xdaamno, are you gonna just not do your promised player analysis now that a convenient new wagon has formed that could save you today?

First and foremost, stop weasel-wording. It's anti-town and makes you look scummy to anyone paying attention.

Secondly, I will probably not do a pbpa and hammer myself until I believe I will be lynched anyway. I thought I had made this clear. If I'm doing another chunk of work any time soon, it will be looking at Panzer.

[Xdaamno]

Interesting sarnath'd.

[charter]

How can you have no opinion on Panzer?

...

What? That was obviously directed at Lowell.

How can you have no opinion on Panzer?

I would also like to remind folks that Panzer casually dismissed my earlier arguments against Lowell. If Panzer flips scum, I think Lowell has a good chance of being a scum-buddy.

My thoughts exactly.

@Lynx and tubby, what are your opinions on Panzer? I'd say both of you look suspicious for your posts there. If anything, you should be suspicious of me for clearly trying to get someone else besides Xdaamo lynched right before deadline. You continue to view his actions as scummy, but it doesn't make sense that you're not getting worked up over my recent actions. If you actually think Xdaamo is scum, then you surely must think I am as well because I'm clearly trying to lynch someone besides him today.

Also, Lynx, I feel like a bunch of the reasons you give in 336 apply to Panzer as well (along with other reasons).

[Xdaamno]

How can you have no opinion on Panzer?

...

What? That was obviously directed at Lowell.

Yes, it was just a silly question. When somebody says "no opinion", you seem to interpret that as literal. I believe Lowell knows who Panzer is.

[Artifex]

Wait, who Sarnath'd?

charter's the only person whos making a real case against Panzer. I have questions about some of the points you're making, but you might have something here. In any case Im interested to see how Panzer responds to them.

A question for you though:

And from what I gathered, Xdaamo threatened to self hammer to ensure a lynch.

Am I completely misreading this, or are you saying that Xda looks more town because he's willing to self hammer rather than have a no lynch? Because- I'm pretty sure there's only a no lynch in cases of ties, right? I've been thinking his self hammer promise was a nulltell because the player with the most votes gets lynched no matter what.

[Artifex]

You continue to view his actions as scummy, but it doesn't make sense that you're not getting worked up over my recent actions. If you actually think Xdaamo is scum, then you surely must think I am as well because I'm clearly trying to lynch someone besides him today.

Nonsense- how is it a certainty that if Xda is scum= charter scum because youre making a case against another player in the last week before a deadline? If youd suddenly thrown this out there in the last 24 hours or so Id definitely be more suspicious than I am now. Right now I could easily go either way on you.

[Lynx The Antithesis]

Xdaamno, are you gonna just not do your promised player analysis now that a convenient new wagon has formed that could save you today?

First and foremost, stop weasel-wording. It's anti-town and makes you look scummy to anyone paying attention.

Secondly, I will probably not do a pbpa and hammer myself until I believe I will be lynched anyway. I thought I had made this clear. If I'm doing another chunk of work any time soon, it will be looking at Panzer.

How is it weasel wording? There's still a very good chance you will be lynched as the deadline is drawing near and you are still the lead vote getter I believe. So your player analysis would still be beneficial to the town. I think you just don't want to hold any strong convictions against any players if you live to day 2. Something you've done the entire game.

You already jumped on the Panzer wagon. Don't you think you should have looked at him more closely before you hopped on anyway? Opportunistic scum ready to jump on anybody to save himself before even looking at the player. Scummy? Yes.

@Lynx and tubby, what are your opinions on Panzer? I'd say both of you look suspicious for your posts there. If anything, you should be suspicious of me for clearly trying to get someone else besides Xdaamo lynched right before deadline. You continue to view his actions as scummy, but it doesn't make sense that you're not getting worked up over my recent actions. If you actually think Xdaamo is scum, then you surely must think I am as well because I'm clearly trying to lynch someone besides him today.

Also, Lynx, I feel like a bunch of the reasons you give in 336 apply to Panzer as well (along with other reasons).

Now I think this is scummy because now it seems you're really trying to divert attention away from Xdaamno with a post like this. I've seen that you've expressed a persistent suspicion of Panzer for a large part of the game. So the switch to Panzer wasn't to suprising considering that he's been quiet recently(due to being busy). I just assumed you wanted to act on your suspicion to hear from Panzer before the day ended. So it wasn't really shocking or suspicious to me.

But the fact that you're trying to draw myself and Tubby into a case on yourself makes you suspicious. That seems like you're really trying to divert attention away from Xdaamno now. So this post was suspicious not the switch.

FOS: Charter

Panzer basically went inactive after page nine. But things like Charter/Artem scumbuddies seemed like a big reach especially so early in day 1. He backed down from alot of his suspicions very easily. Besides that nothing jumped else stood out for me.

[Xdaamno]

Xdaamno, are you gonna just not do your promised player analysis now that a convenient new wagon has formed that could save you today?

First and foremost, stop weasel-wording. It's anti-town and makes you look scummy to anyone paying attention.

Secondly, I will probably not do a pbpa and hammer myself until I believe I will be lynched anyway. I thought I had made this clear. If I'm doing another chunk of work any time soon, it will be looking at Panzer.

How is it weasel wording? There's still a very good chance you will be lynched as the deadline is drawing near and you are still the lead vote getter I believe. So your player analysis would still be beneficial to the town. I think you just don't want to hold any strong convictions against any players if you live to day 2. Something you've done the entire game.

You already jumped on the Panzer wagon. Don't you think you should have looked at him more closely before you hopped on anyway? Opportunistic scum ready to jump on anybody to save himself before even looking at the player. Scummy? Yes.

This is the definition of weasel wording, by Wikipedia:

Weasel words is an informal term for words that are ambiguous and not supported by facts.

Words like "conveniant" (and perhaps "save") are clearly weasel words. You completely missed the point. I was challenging the way you used terminology to try and incriminate me. You used more weasal phrases in your response: "jumped", "before even looking" and "strong convictions".

Of course a pbpa would be helpful, but I decided it would work well with a self-hammer vote. It's not as useful at this point, and suddenly a Panzer analysis has become

more

useful (though not as fun as knocking down your arguments.)

This is why voting Panzer is an optimal play from myself, a town player's, perspective:

- I felt the situation was either 'Panzer or me', and I still do to an extent.
- The chance of myself being scum is zero.
- The chance of Panzer being scum is greater than zero.

Therefore, I had a greater chance of catching scum by lynching Panzer rather than lynching myself. You said "Don't you think you should have looked at him more closely before you hopped on anyway?", impling my play was not optimal at the time. Can you explain what is wrong with my logic? If so, I will admit I made a mistake.

[Xdaamno]

EBWOP:

"Conveniant" is clearly a weasel word, perhaps along with "save".

You completely missed the point. I was challenging the way you used terminology to try and incriminate me. You used more weasal phrases in your response: "jumped", "before even looking" and "strong convictions".

Fixed - "perhaps" and "clearly" in the same clause 0_o

[Lynx The Antithesis]

Forgive me for not knowing the wikipedia definition of "weasel words." But it seems you love to nitpick the phrasing of my sentiments rather than the actual content. You did this a little while back with the terminology. It doesn't help your defense.

You should have done the player analysis along with your Panzer argument when you applied the vote to Panzer. You had plenty of time when you were being wagoned to bring up a case on somebody else or any suspicions you had. Instead you waited for the "convenient"(weasel word forgive me) time to vote Panzer when there was more support from the town. You haven't built a case on anyone save Charter with no real backing for that vote even. I already gave my thoughts on that a little while back. Your play just does not read town to me at all.

[Xdaamno]

Forgive me for not knowing the wikipedia definition of "weasel words." But it seems you love to nitpick the phrasing of my sentiments rather than the actual content. You did this a little while back with the terminology. It doesn't help your defense.

That's an utter, unforgivable strawman. I

did

address the content, in more detail than my definition and single paragraph regarding weasal words. However, I felt my mentioned was deserved, as you were using inappropriate tactics to try and incriminate me. To propose that this rebuttal does somehow not help my defense and that I provided no other content in that post is, tbth, insulting.

It's things like this that put me off mafia: you have blatantly ignored the statements and questions I made, instead

repeating what you have already said

. You failed to show why my play regarding the Panzer vote was not optimal, even though I

directly

asked you.

*self-deprecation here*

[Lynx The Antithesis]

Yes I know you asked the question. I simply felt my response was sufficient. If you want me to directly say that your play was not optimal then here: Your play was not optimal. Voting someone else simply because you don't know their alignment in order to save yourself is scummy to me. I've felt that you've waited for a case to be built on another player so you could get anything to get attention away from yourself. You haven't been scum hunting yourself which bothers me and is not the best or optimal play for the town.

[Xdaamno]

Yes I know you asked the question. I simply felt my response was sufficient. If you want me to directly say that your play was not optimal then here: Your play was not optimal. Voting someone else simply because you don't know their alignment in order to save yourself is scummy to me. I've felt that you've waited for a case to be built on another player so you could get anything to get attention away from yourself. You haven't been scum hunting yourself which bothers me and is not the best or optimal play for the town.

I thought you might dodge the issue like this. These are the two reasons you gave for why my play is not optimal:

- It was not optimal
- It looked scummy

I'm asking why this play is not optimal from a town's perspective, as you're otherwise using circular logic. Additionally, you seem to mistake my question as "what is not optimal about how I am playing". I asked "what is not optimal about that

particular move

".

For the gazillionth time, try again or admit you were wrong. If you want to have a sure chance of doing it right, look at my post, quote what I said and directly respond as to why my logic was faulty.

[Lynx The Antithesis]

This is why voting Panzer is an optimal play from myself, a town player's, perspective:

- I felt the situation was either 'Panzer or me', and I still do to an extent.
- The chance of myself being scum is zero.
- The chance of Panzer being scum is greater than zero.

Therefore, I had a greater chance of catching scum by lynching Panzer rather than lynching myself. You said "Don't you think you should have looked at him more closely before you hopped on anyway?", impling my play was not optimal at the time. Can you explain what is wrong with my logic? If so, I will admit I made a mistake.

The fact that you felt it was only you and Panzer after somebody made a case for you. We still have time. No one else came off scummy to you earlier or before? You saw obviously that Panzer's wagon grew rather quickly. You could have easily presented a candidate who you felt was scummy and a better candidate for a lynch rather than yourself. Instead you hopped on the wagon before even looking closely at Panzer. The fact that you know your own alignment and thus know that Panzer has a greater chance of being scum than yourself doesn't excuse the fact that you could've still done some scumhunting on your own rather than rely on Charter's and Artem's. I think it would have been better to wait and see if close to deadline it came down to just the two of you. Then maybe lay your vote of desperation because that's exactly what it comes off as.

[tubby216]

@charter
no i diddn't see the need to vote you or fos you at the time because i have seen you do more scummy stuff in a game as town so i am willing to let it slide


panzer doesn't bother me that much but i am getting annoyed at xdaamo and feel that he is the correct lynch for today

[Danchaofan]

sorry got deadlined in another game. I'm reading and posting asap sorry.

[Lowell]

I like 352 and 366. I still see connections between artem and xda, particularly the way artem is trying to see panzer as an alternative "wagon" when really it was just pulled out of the blue by one player. The way artem is asking everyone their opnion on panzer is odd... it's deflection.

[Xdaamno]

This is why voting Panzer is an optimal play from myself, a town player's, perspective:

- I felt the situation was either 'Panzer or me', and I still do to an extent.
- The chance of myself being scum is zero.
- The chance of Panzer being scum is greater than zero.

Therefore, I had a greater chance of catching scum by lynching Panzer rather than lynching myself. You said "Don't you think you should have looked at him more closely before you hopped on anyway?", impling my play was not optimal at the time. Can you explain what is wrong with my logic? If so, I will admit I made a mistake.

The fact that you felt it was only you and Panzer after somebody made a case for you. We still have time. No one else came off scummy to you earlier or before? You saw obviously that Panzer's wagon grew rather quickly. You could have easily presented a candidate who you felt was scummy and a better candidate for a lynch rather than yourself. Instead you hopped on the wagon before even looking closely at Panzer. The fact that you know your own alignment and thus know that Panzer has a greater chance of being scum than yourself doesn't excuse the fact that you could've still done some scumhunting on your own rather than rely on Charter's and Artem's. I think it would have been better to wait and see if close to deadline it came down to just the two of you. Then maybe lay your vote of desperation because that's exactly what it comes off as.

Well, of course it was a "vote of desperation". What do you think I am saying?

I "jumped" on Panzer because another player was already building a case on them, giving them a higher chance of being lynched off the bat. Otherwise, that is a decent answer

@charter
no i diddn't see the need to vote you or fos you at the time because i have seen you do more scummy stuff in a game as town so i am willing to let it slide


panzer doesn't bother me that much but i am getting annoyed at xdaamo and feel that he is the correct lynch for today

You're being uncooperative town. I have asked you many times over to justify your bizzare attacks, and you seem to think it is fine to ignore me and repeat yourself. If you want to be playing the best you can, it is vital you review your own case and make sure you have not been fooled or self-deceptive, which means throwing away "vibes" unless you can back them up.

Here's a good question for you to answer: "what makes someone more likely to annoy you if they are scum?"

[Xdaamno]

EBWOP: Forgot I was answering Lynx halfway through. My point was that we are at a dilemma of two strategies: looking at each player and choosing carefully to save yourself, or trying to lynch another player under fire to save yourself. Both are viable town strategies, and I went with the second. It's unlikely for us to be able to determine which is optimal, making my approach reasonable.

[tubby216]

t;]@charter
no i diddn't see the need to vote you or fos you at the time because i have seen you do more scummy stuff in a game as town so i am willing to let it slide


panzer doesn't bother me that much but i am getting annoyed at xdaamo and feel that he is the correct lynch for today

You're being uncooperative town. I have asked you many times over to justify your bizzare attacks, and you seem to think it is fine to ignore me and repeat yourself. If you want to be playing the best you can, it is vital you review your own case and make sure you have not been fooled or self-deceptive, which means throwing away "vibes" unless you can back them up.

Here's a good question for you to answer: "what makes someone more likely to annoy you if they are scum?"

hush,
i play the way i play
i see you attacks as argumentative and annoying. I dislike your holier than thou appraoch to tone in your posts and i feel you need to be lynched, and as far as attacks i really haven't made any other that agreeing with what lynx has said. So in closing look eslwhere to engage in a thread dominating argument for i won't be your huckleberry on that one.