Mini 707: Cops and Robbers Mafia (Game Over)

[Green Crayons]

I'm guessing that you're one of those people who doesn't like the use of the word "tell."

Wait. Before I become too thick to converse with: to whom was 997 directed?

those two words: so sure. I can see crywolf is not beyond doubt town. But I can't also see it the other way.

I'm not entirely sure how you're qualifying "so sure." I wouldn't say with 100% certainty that crywolf is scum - but it's pretty hard to say that in any mafia game.

I would say, however, that a number of her actions/reactions are highly suspect and should easily qualify her as a potential scum candidate. Certainly more so than numerous other players, which helps to make me more comfortable in being sure that she's scum. Since we're using a sort of normative/factual hybrid in determining who we believe to be scum, I'm not really how I can more accurately describe my certainty of the semi-abstract notion that Wolf is a scumbag.

[Ether]

Yeah, that was a simulpost; it was meant for Bionic.

I can't really see myself hammering Crywolf. If I did, it would be the conclusion of an ultimatum, so people would be adequately warned and be able to unvote beforehand. But I'm scared that if I set an ultimatum, I actually

would

have to hammer...so even that probably won't happen. But where did you get the idea that I'd hammer Crywolf by surprise?

Ether sits on Canary.

[mykonian]

GC, you don't see mizzy as a potential scum candidate? Esspecially the way she acted around crywolfs "omgus" can't be called normal.

[Ether]

Mykonian and I kind of differ around the specifics. ¬_¬

[bionicchop2]

@GC - I see what you were saying in your post now and apologize. I took it as a jab since my skimming gave me the impression you had a less than favorable view of empath's abilities. This lead me to believe you were making a snap judgment on me and taking a swipe at my ability to analyze anything. As for me bringing up your unvote, I try to look for motivations behind actions and unvotes stand out to me. The follow up is to determine if the reason stated is the reasons behind it or if there are ulterior motives.

@ether - Questioning something does not imply the item being questioned is seen as a tell. I saw it as something worthy of my attention at the time.

@Q21 - I would like to hear your reasons for your vote on Mykonian and how you plan to utilize your vote in the upcoming days.

[bionicchop2]

And how do you suggest this would come about?

Keep confronting him again every time he fails to respond, picking up right from where we left off, until he acknowledges that he's being stubborn, that nothing he finds scummy from me does in fact make more sense under a scum motivation, and he's probably wrong about me. What are you getting at?

Do you feel a conversational topic reaches a point of diminishing returns eventually? I don't know the whole background of what myk and you have been debating, but I imagine if it has reached a point for you to make this statement, there is sure to be a lot of repetition going on and new points are no longer being developed.

[Ether]

Eh. I'm a bit looser with the word; anyway, I don't think his unvote says anything about his alignment.

I think that diminishing returns applies for getting information, but persuasion follows a different standard. (Right after I made that post, Mykonian admitted for the first time that he was unable to produce a case on me--justifying my approach.)

[bionicchop2]

Currently leaning towards Crywolf vote over a Mizzy vote. Crywolf is displaying her standard style of just piggybacking onto the arguments of others in what I can read. I would combine this with the school excuses, but Mizzy also appears to have work excuses so it is not a reason to vote one over the other (though wolf has a history of doing this as scum - would need to see where she has done it as town also).

[bionicchop2]

I think that diminishing returns applies for getting information, but persuasion follows a different standard. (Right after I made that post, Mykonian admitted for the first time that he was unable to produce a case on me--justifying my approach.)

I can agree with this to an extent. It does seem a little off to spend so much time trying to persuade one person to see you as town though I have seen enough townies concerned about their own perception to not be overly concerned with it.

[mykonian]

people say it is a null tell for Ether... to be busy with how town she is. There has been some talk about it.

[Mizzy]

myk:

A "scumtell" as usually used is a term that generally means some action that scum "always" do that magically makes other people able to tell that the doer is scum. Meaning, scumtells are actions that are said to be ONLY done by scum. Example:

Person A: "Yay, there was no nightkill last night!"
Person B: "Scumtell! Vote: Person A!"

Ether understands my stance on scumtells.

And no, a case and mentioning scummy actions are not scumtells. And I feel that the concept of scumtells is bullshit.

[crywolf20084]

Working on my post right now.

[mykonian]

myk:

A "scumtell" as usually used is a term that generally means some action that scum "always" do that magically makes other people able to tell that the doer is scum. Meaning, scumtells are actions that are said to be ONLY done by scum. Example:

Person A: "Yay, there was no nightkill last night!"
Person B: "Scumtell! Vote: Person A!"

Ether understands my stance on scumtells.

And no, a case and mentioning scummy actions are not scumtells. And I feel that the concept of scumtells is bullshit.

But this is exactly what you are doing with that "omgus" vote from crywolf. That is exactly what is happening here. You scream OMGUS, vote crywolf, and you have for the show a weak (lurker) case behind it. But it is clear that you want to push it through with the word OMGUS.

You want to tell us that action could only have been made by scum, as it is your main reason to vote. While I think I have showed that it wouldn't be illogical to vote ether for such an obvious bad vote as a towny.

[Mizzy]

But this is exactly what you are doing with that "omgus" vote from crywolf. That is exactly what is happening here. You scream OMGUS, vote crywolf, and you have for the show a weak (lurker) case behind it. But it is clear that you want to push it through with the word OMGUS.

No, I very much was not. The first time she began to tunnel-vision on Ether, I noticed. The first OMGUS vote from her made me suspect her a bit. It wasn't until the Ether-OMGUS vote that I full-out found her to be scummy and voted her. I did not use just one action of hers as a reason to vote her, I used many smaller reasons balled into one case to vote her, which was strengthened the moment she OMGUS-voted me and continued to not scumhunt afterwards.

You want to tell us that action could only have been made by scum, as it is your main reason to vote. While I think I have showed that it wouldn't be illogical to vote ether for such an obvious bad vote as a towny.

And no, I said no such thing so

don't you dare

put words into my mouth. I said that multiple scummy/suspicious actions compounded to make me suspect her as scum. The one OMGUS vote was simply the last straw in a long series of suspicious activity. And more of such activity came after.

I'm not going to respond to anymore of the same stupid shit from you. If you have legitimate questions or a legitimate case against me (which you have yet to actually have) feel free to ask and bring up the points. But I refuse to deal with more of your single-minded stubborn attitude.

Oh, and if you don't believe me about my views on scumhunting, go read one of the many games I have been in where I say the same views on this scumtell jargon, regardless of role or alignment. It's how I feel about them. Or, ask Ether. She's seen it.

[bionicchop2]

Deduction has me thinking we may actually have wagons on two scum.

The players who are not crossed out do not appear to be town from my perspective. My reasons for feeling the crossed out players are scum are written after the list. This is all based on a light read of pages 20-41 and obviously all points are open to debate.

crywolf20084

mykonian

Fuzzyman

Empking

q21
Mizzy

Green Crayons

Ether

=========
Town Read Reasons:
=========

mykonian: breadcrumb + timing of claim + IMO sincere scum hunting. That was a complex breadcrumb. Could be seen as a null tell as some mentioned, but myk is not a long-time player and he didn't breadcrumb 10 different roles from what I can see in his early posts. Combined with the fact the report on him was innocent, I believe the claim. Scum-myk just simply needed to let corporate get lynched or fuzzy get lynched. Easy 1 mislynch with potential for 2 easy mislynches before he is really suspected.

=========

Fuzzyman: claim and results line up with mykonian's miller claim. Complex gambit (as partner with myk) is a very far outside chance, but I am not seeing it. From the last part of day 1, people were accusing him of not making a case on corporal, which would fit somebody getting a N0 guilty and not being able to find a good case to not out themselves as cop. Claim on D2 was a little off-pudding, but not scummy IMO

=========

Empking: I would need to see examples of Emp-scum jumping on a person most perceived as town by others and not a likely lynch candidate (ever). Without knowing Emp, seeing him stick out like a sore thumb comes across as anti-scum.

=========

Green Crayons: I am comfortable with the consensus town read people are throwing at him. Scum-hunting has a genuine feel to it though this is not as concrete as my other reads.

=========

Ether: Ether searching to get a replacement into my role is the reason I am in this game (no she did not communicate with me directly). I don't think scum would actively recruit a replacement for an inactive town player. Inactive town players are great for scum. At the same time, she did not publicly ask make a big deal in the thread about getting a replacement (scum might do that in an attempt to look townie). This is WIFOMy and I don't expect others to simply agree with it, but it is my reason for a current town read.

=========

I am not sure why I approached it this way. I think mostly because I saw Myk / Fuzzy as town leaving only 6 possible suspects for me. Then when I was reading / skimming the other players popped out as town to me.

Now, if someone were to say that only one of wolf/mizzy were scum and I had to pick one right now without any further reading, I would vote crywolf. Now that I have an initial suspect read, I will pick through with a little more scrutiny and try to identify more specifics.

[Green Crayons]

To be honest the above list is what I keep coming up with. If I was to exchange one of them, it would be either to take out Mizzy or CW in order to put in Myk there, since his scum buddy q21 was so keen on fingering him as the GF.

And since myk wants to lynch Mizzy, I'm inclined to vote CW. Just in case if that's the scenario. Also, CW still hasn't posted anything worthwhile so I'm just that much more in favor of stringing her up.

[Ether]

If I was to exchange one of them, it would be either to take out Mizzy or CW in order to put in Myk there, since his scum buddy q21 was so keen on fingering him as the GF.

Eh.

(Meh. q21 is the common denominator, and even having said that out loud I still

want

to focus on Mizzy.)

Working on my post right now.

Lady, I have now spent three days of my life playing cryptic because I'm waiting on you, and I am pretty sick of it.

[mykonian]

You want to tell us that action could only have been made by scum, as it is your main reason to vote. While I think I have showed that it wouldn't be illogical to vote ether for such an obvious bad vote as a towny.

And no, I said no such thing so

don't you dare

put words into my mouth. I said that multiple scummy/suspicious actions compounded to make me suspect her as scum. The one OMGUS vote was simply the last straw in a long series of suspicious activity. And more of such activity came after.

I don´t think anybody should be lynched for being slightly lurking and possibily distancing. (with ether.) That was what I still know about the rest of your reasons, and I have said that before: that is not something you want to lynch for. But when you added OMGUS, suddenly it was. What a great scumtell must that be...

[mykonian]

Deduction has me thinking we may actually have wagons on two scum.

then mizzy has done her distancing very well...

[Mizzy]

I don´t think anybody should be lynched for being slightly lurking and possibily distancing. (with ether.) That was what I still know about the rest of your reasons, and I have said that before: that is not something you want to lynch for. But when you added OMGUS, suddenly it was. What a great scumtell must that be...

Okay, either you can't read or you're the worst townie ever.

[Fuzzyman]

Lady, I have now spent three days of my life playing cryptic because I'm waiting on you, and I am pretty sick of it.

This. Is that math class that started on the 20th still dragging on after these few days?

[mykonian]

...Well, that made my mind up for me.

Myk has pointed out that cry hasn't done very much that has been noticeable (other than attack Ether) and not only do I agree with that but I see cry getting right back into the same rut as she was in before. She's not scumhunting. If anything, she's acting on gut, which at this point in the game, is very anti-town in my eyes.

I mentioned before that I was neutral (with a side of suspicion) about:

Fuzzyman
Empking
crywolf20084
mykonian

Fuzzy claimed cop, which I won't second guess at this time, and mykonian claimed miller, which again, I have no reason to doubt so will accept as true, tentatively. And Emp I think is just a crappy player but not necessarily scum (I'm leaning town on him.) That leaves:

Fuzzyman

Empking

crywolf20084

mykonian

Out of the other folks, corporate is innocent if Fuzzy & myk are to be believed, and since I am accepting that for the moment:

Ether

corporate

q21

And there is the potential scumteam.

Looking at this, it makes sense that cry and Ether have been at each others' throats;

distancing.

And neither of them have done much that's been noteworthy which makes me think they are flying under the radar.

Thus:

Vote: crywolf20084 for a blatant OMGUS vote, a shitty case, and being a hypocrite. Along the rest of the case above. And

FoS: Ether and q21.

Let the flame wars ensue.

OK, I missed the potential scumteam point (but can't that wait? I think it is most useful until we really did catch scum), and the fact that you scrap empking, and choose from q21/ether/crywolf, you choose crywolf for the bolded reasons: Lurking and OMGUS. congrats, I had read it. Now what was the point I missed? Is suddenly the fact that crywolf is in a scumteam with Ether conclusive evidence? Is the fact that you dismiss other players from your choice?

No mizzy, you simply follow ether with a vote on crywolf (the second vote, I know), for lurking and screaming OMGUS, while OMGUS is not rightly applied here.

I bolded your reasons: You dismiss a view people because, and suddenly out of this comes with a process of elimination: a scumteam. Great reasoning.

then we have the lurking: another great reason

distancing between ether and cry: even better.

OMGUS. and now you say you have found scum.

And now you keep telling us that your case consists out of much more then only omgus, and that crywolf is most likely scum. While I think that vote from crywolf can be explained with crywolf as town, you say it is a good scumtell, and because the rest of the case doesn't deserve a vote, that OMGUS-point seems to carry your whole vote.

That is wrong, and the fact that you even now try to make it bigger then it is, is even worse. Call me the worst towny, at least I'm not scum, like you.

[Mizzy]

Call me the worst towny, at least I'm not scum, like you.

I will expect an apology from you once I come up town and you're proved wrong.

[bionicchop2]

Here are some similarities between wolf in this game and wolf-scum in my previous game with her:

( Neighborhood is the game I linked earlier)

I say you're complaining. Yes you may have contributed a little bit, but to me,

being sick and studying for a very important Bio test

takes precedent to this. But i'm here now and I'm not liking your pushiness.
There's a time and a place to be pushy as a townie, but right now, I think you have gone to far.

Bolded by me. A common theme in her last game as scum was her repeated call to her life priorities, such as:

I'm sorry if I've been a little busy with medical issues that will put me outta commission for a month.

Sorry for not being on this weekend. I forgot about a baby shower then I had to work yesterday from 9 AM till midnight (yes i worked that freakin long and I am now done with my first class.)

Now, the first quote from this game involves her studying for a bio exam (post made on the 19th). In Neighborhood, she was also studying for that exam on the 19th. During that day, she made 72 posts on this website over a span of 11 hours. Doesn't seem to busy for the site yet uses it as a reason for possibly not keeping up.

Now, there is no post from her between Nov. 19-23rd. During the time she remained active on the site in other games and mish-mash. She pulled similar disappearing acts in my last game with her.

Bite me. I need my Bio class for my career. I think that it's a little bit more important than a game, but I'm caught up now am I not?

-Appeal to emotion.

Another similarity is her constant use of other people's arguments instead of developing her own. She pushes the ideas of others to try and help her blend in.

When making her first vote on Ether, her argument contained a bunch of Simpor quotes.

[snip]
Simpor points out a good point here:
[snip]
I agree with Simpor here and I don’t like what what Ether had to say.

That vote occurred on the 23rd. After 3 people vote corporate and another FoS's corporate, Crywolf comes tagging along to put him at L-2 (on the 24th) without making any substantial points:

Your blanket FOS, thinking it would truthfully hold up, and these BS statements that are clearly demonstrating that you're not reading anything that we've said.

Unvote, Vote: Corporate

Later that day, Ether unvotes crywolf to vote Simpor. Patrick votes Simpor not too much later. All of a sudden, Simpor is 2nd most suspicious to Crywolf and deserving of a PbPa. Now these PbPa's had me fooled when I first skimmed as they looked like scum hunting. After reading them, they just look like paraphrasing what the player said and no real analysis was done. Scum could easily slap together a no-analysis post recap fairly easily. Corporate ends up putting a 3rd vote on simpor and within the hour crywolf is there to put him at L-2.

You bring up vaild points, which I agree with, also Simpor last couple posts, He's jumped up above corperate in my book so:

Unvote; Vote: Simpor

@Simpor: I may not like Ether, but those are not reachy reasons. Actually they are very vaild.

@Coperate: I'm not done with you, your posts have gotten

slightly

better yes, but I would love to see exactly why you changed your vote.

Day ends. Delay between start of Day 2 and Crywolf posting. When she does post in #607, Fuzzy has moved from far behind corperate of her suspect list. right to the top. She doesn't state a reason, but I think I found it...Fuzzy started the day with 3 votes on him! This is Dec. 18th.

Revised:

My Scum List

SCUM
Fuzzy
.
.
Corperate
.
.
.
.
.
Ether (For the sudden lurking) + Mizzy
.
Empking
.
.
Myko
GC
TOWN

Note the placement of Empking (who she has not mentioned at all).

Now jump to Dec 22:
Empking posts at 9:29 am (from my time stamps).
Cry posts at 11:15 (can see all of Emp's posts)
GC questions empath at 1:27 pm
Q21 posts and votes empath at 3:08 pm
Fuzzy posts and votes empath at 4:32 pm

Then without any new analysis or any new posts from empath to spark this at 5:16 pm:

Vote: Empking

Your posts are ridiculous. I cannot believe that you think GC was only going after Simpor. He went after Mizzy hardcore for quiet a bit. Then went to corperate, myself, and THEN Simpor.

Get your facts straight.

Way to follow the flavor of the day and slide your vote in.


Not going to do much more today. Based on my history with Cry and feeling she is approaching this game in the same way, I am prepared to put her back at L-1

vote crywolf

[bionicchop2]

Working on my post right now.

I wonder what excuse will come up for this post never showing up on the site even though she was on the site and posted in other games since this statement.