Mini 707: Cops and Robbers Mafia (Game Over)

[Green Crayons]

Mizzy: Maybe we should do a recap so instead of you being very obviously miffed you could actually help me understand.

What's your own vote for, anyway? We all know how I feel about hypocrites.

Ether fishing for reasoning outside of what you already have posted via 850. Or she didn't read 850 at all.

Try reading my post.

Legitimate response.

(Credit for voting Crywolf over Empking, though. Hmm--Mizzy, what changed between those two lists?)

Wait, I just saw this. How can you even ask that question seriously? What major event happened between list #1 post and #2 post? Just two role claims, that's all. You really didn't read my post at all, did you? You just skimmed it.

You overreact to a legitimate question (one that's actually separate from the above quotations), since you're only reasoning for not voting Emp is "And Emp I think is just a crappy player but not necessarily scum (I'm leaning town on him.)" You didn't give any reason as to why your opinion as formed as such.

Then you ignore the question entirely (even though q21 also expressed confusion as to how you came to this conclusion re: Emp) in your post 873.

It actually really ticks me off that I took the time to post my reasoning and then it gets ignored. You want further detail? Then here's all the detail you're getting:

But you didn't post your reasoning as to why you formed a town opinion on Emp.

The claims, because I have no reason to disbelieve them, completely shifted my unknown/neutral reads on the players involved. Based on those changes, via process of elimination coupled by prior play and evidence, I was able to get off the fence, as it were, about several players.

Yeah, this is nice but it's not explaining what our confusion is about. We're not asking about how and why you nixed Fuzz, Myk or corp from your list of pool of potential lynchees today. Emp wasn't involved with any of the claims - he's altogether absent from that little trio of affected players. We're asking why you think Emp is a poorly playing town and you've failed to given an adequate explanation.

The in-game happenings had nothing to do with the fact that I had no time to play, and I warned folks ahead of time that it would happen. I didn't need a prod, and in fact, did my best to stay active even when I was working 16-17 hour days. I did not drop off the face of the earth for no reason and no warning. So no, I don't consider the two things equal.

My point was that people have different legitimate reasons for dropping off the face of the earth. Disinterest in the game isn't a pro-scum tell, it's an anti-town tell. The similarity between your real life complications and Ether's real life apathy towards the game is that they both made you inactive (to a certain extent) but that alone doesn't suggest either of you are scum.

I stated an opinion and she argued against it. Her argument was correct and my original opinion wasn't. I accepted that fact. What's wrong with that, exactly? I was wrong, and I admitted it.

I didn't see where you admitted your incorrect assertion. And my issue with it is that this has been your (most recent) line of attack against Ether: "You have been useless all game!" changed to "You have been active but useless all game!" changed to "You were active and helpful Day One but since then you have been useless all Day Two!" It's a perpetually shifting claim about why exactly I should think Ether is scum, but the core of the claim - that Ether unplugged for a short while because she lost faith in herself or somesuch crap like that - isn't a scumtell. If anything, it's null.

what bothers me after that, is that people use the word OMGUS to vote crywolf, suddenly not needing reasoning behind there votes on a less active person. You didn't look at the situation. You just see the response to a vote, with a vote; you call it OMGUS, and you think your vote is justified. It isn't.

...Are you really saying my vote against crywolf is solely because I think she OMGUSed Ether? Really? Did you ignore my post 855?

Unless we're in one of those idiotic, "Everybody has a power role," games, if one person has a power role, it's more likely than any other person doesn't.

So it is your belief that you are the only town player with a power role? You know, there's a nice little balance between a town having a solitary power role and every town player having a power role. Any reasonable assumption would be that there is two or three town power roles in a 12 person game. Your claim has not affect on the potential for Emp having (or not having) a power role.




Crywolf continues to ignore highlighted issues that paint her in a less than favorable light.
My vote continues to push for her lynch.
You should notice a correlation between these two facts.

[mykonian]

Q21

post 88 is his first real post. Seems like a good post to me.

hmm, ether attack him for it. Don't quite understand why.

143. summary post. He isn't really active against ether. also points out in favor of ether.

man, you are not very active are you? I'm starting page 10 now, and really, I haven't seen so many posts. However, it must be said, there is a difference between your inactivity and crywolves: with you I have constantly the feeling that I know where you stand, you are better then her at expressing your view on the game.

but now I'm on page fifteen, you have voted here and there, but there was nothing exceptionally agressive, no a single strong attack. That way, you are acting the same as Ether: you look protown, you ask questions, you make small attacks here and there, but nothing real.

Ether, I'm too lazy to check myself, but have you ever commented on the inactivity of Q21?

after several pages been gone, he posts 466: he attacks :empking, simpor, crywolf and fuzzy. You only missed corporate in the easy-targets list.

620 Q21 points out that crywolf leaves him twice out of her scumlist. Would not make sense for crywolf-town to do this, but would not make sense for q21 to point it out. Minor point against crywolf I guess, trying to link herself to q21

he is the only one to doubt my claim. I like the way he puts that logically together in post 877. Only problem with it is that he assumes all the possibilities are equal, something that doesn't need to be, and in this case isn't true.

conclusion: You can see this is a little small, and that is because Q21 has not been very active. The posts he make I can say the same about as Ether's general play. It seems protown, but if he is scum, I'm sure he could do this without harming his buddy's.

[mykonian]

...Well, that made my mind up for me.

Myk has pointed out that cry hasn't done very much that has been noticeable (other than attack Ether) and not only do I agree with that but I see cry getting right back into the same rut as she was in before. She's not scumhunting. If anything, she's acting on gut, which at this point in the game, is very anti-town in my eyes.

I mentioned before that I was neutral (with a side of suspicion) about:

Fuzzyman
Empking
crywolf20084
mykonian

Fuzzy claimed cop, which I won't second guess at this time, and mykonian claimed miller, which again, I have no reason to doubt so will accept as true, tentatively. And Emp I think is just a crappy player but not necessarily scum (I'm leaning town on him.) That leaves:

Fuzzyman

Empking

crywolf20084

mykonian

Out of the other folks, corporate is innocent if Fuzzy & myk are to be believed, and since I am accepting that for the moment:

Ether

corporate

q21

And there is the potential scumteam.

Looking at this, it makes sense that cry and Ether have been at each others' throats; distancing. And neither of them have done much that's been noteworthy which makes me think they are flying under the radar.

Thus:

Vote: crywolf20084

for a blatant OMGUS vote, a shitty case, and being a hypocrite. Along the rest of the case above. And

FoS: Ether and q21.

Let the flame wars ensue.

OK, I missed the potential scumteam point (but can't that wait? I think it is most useful until we really did catch scum), and the fact that you scrap empking, and choose from q21/ether/crywolf, you choose crywolf for the bolded reasons: Lurking and OMGUS. congrats, I had read it. Now what was the point I missed? Is suddenly the fact that crywolf is in a scumteam with Ether conclusive evidence? Is the fact that you dismiss other players from your choice?

No mizzy, you simply follow ether with a vote on crywolf (the second vote, I know), for lurking and screaming OMGUS, while OMGUS is not rightly applied here.

[Ether]

Mizzy's attacks on me are very much a factor in my vote. It's the sort of thing that I personally would refer to as OMGUS and most people would not.

but there was nothing exceptionally agressive, no a single strong attack. That way, you are acting the same as Ether: you look protown, you ask questions, you make small attacks here and there, but nothing real.

The posts he make I can say the same about as Ether's general play. It seems protown, but if he is scum, I'm sure he could do this without harming his buddy's.

...

Ether, I'm too lazy to check myself, but have you ever commented on the inactivity of Q21?

Don't think so.

(I should probably say at some point that I think q21 is probably scum. This is another thing I won't get into yet.)

[mykonian]

ok, I'm not quite sure what the defenition of OMGUS you use means, I have trouble understanding it.

Not that it makes a difference. Mizzy uses the word to justify a lurker vote, while I think, even your broader version of OMGUS would count for crywolf her vote. Crywolf reacted like everyone would on your vote, scum or town.

the aggresivity and how sure mizzy is that crywolf must be scum, with such a weak case, that is most driven by the magic word OMGUS is pure scummy. I will wait with voting her until I completed my reread on her. Tomorrow I will finish that, I'm free then.

[Mizzy]

Ether fishing for reasoning outside of what you already have posted via 850. Or she didn't read 850 at all.

I don't think she read my 850. If she had, she would have specifically asked about reasoning outside of what I had given already.

You overreact to a legitimate question (one that's actually separate from the above quotations), since you're only reasoning for not voting Emp is "And Emp I think is just a crappy player but not necessarily scum (I'm leaning town on him.)" You didn't give any reason as to why your opinion as formed as such.

Forgive me if I feel like everyone skipped what I had to say and pointed fingers anyway. If Ether had read what I wrote, then she wouldn't have asked the question. I don't think she was asking about Emp specifically.

As for why my feelings on Emp, I never really outright suspected him in the first place; I was unsure and and thought he could have been paired up with someone else. But once I did my process of elimination, the people I would have paired him with got crossed off (specifically, myk and fuzzy.) Since he was potential-scum to me because of the pairings, I had to let him off the hook.

I hope that clears up the Emp thing.

But you didn't post your reasoning as to why you formed a town opinion on Emp.

This was involving Cry, not Emp.

The claims, because I have no reason to disbelieve them, completely shifted my unknown/neutral reads on the players involved. Based on those changes, via process of elimination coupled by prior play and evidence, I was able to get off the fence, as it were, about several players.

Yeah, this is nice but it's not explaining what our confusion is about. We're not asking about how and why you nixed Fuzz, Myk or corp from your list of pool of potential lynchees today. Emp wasn't involved with any of the claims - he's altogether absent from that little trio of affected players. We're asking why you think Emp is a poorly playing town and you've failed to given an adequate explanation.

I didn't see where you admitted your incorrect assertion.

Then go read my #854.

No mizzy, you simply follow ether with a vote on crywolf (the second vote, I know), for lurking and screaming OMGUS, while OMGUS is not rightly applied here.

Yes, it very much is rightly applied here.

Ether voted cry, and while her case was all kindsa weak, cry does NOT get to just vote Ether right back with a weak case, too. I'm not saying that Ether was in the right, I'm saying that cry was more in the wrong.

Cry has tunnel-visioned on Ether quite a bit. She has no real reason to be voting her. Then, once I vote cry, cry considers OMGUS voting me, without mentioning any reasons other than "recent events" which is so completely vague that it doesn't count as anything.

The rest of my case still stands. Cry has not scumhunted, which is the biggest point against her. She has done things she's called out other people for doing, including the OMGUS bullshit.

Mizzy's attacks on me are very much a factor in my vote. It's the sort of thing that I personally would refer to as OMGUS and most people would not.

When I vote you, you can consider that an attack. Until then, there's just suspicion.

[Mizzy]

Not that it makes a difference. Mizzy uses the word to justify a lurker vote, while I think, even your broader version of OMGUS would count for crywolf her vote. Crywolf reacted like everyone would on your vote, scum or town.

Just because you want to pretend there isn't more to my case than the blatant OMGUS vote, and the threat to place another one, it doesn't mean that you're right. You can pretend I don't suspect her for the tunnel-visioned attitudes, the hypocritical actions, the lack of scumhunting, and the other circumstantial evidence, but it doesn't make you right. It just makes you blind.

And for the last time, I didn't accuse Cry of lurking as part of my case. So stop making shit up.

[mykonian]

The rest of my case still stands. Cry has not scumhunted, which is the biggest point against her.

how do you want to tell me this is not accusing cry for lurking?

and how would you react if I voted GC, without giving any reasons, just place the vote. Would that be protown? In case GC was somewhat suspicious, would it be usefull for scum? GC would have every reason to doubt my intentions, and I think he would be entitled to get an explanation is quite an aggressive way, with vote, and if he didn't get it, I think he should assume I have no reasons, making my vote antitown.

The action crywolf makes is natural, no matter how often you use the word OMGUS. How should she have reacted on Ethers vote?

[Green Crayons]

how do you want to tell me this is not accusing cry for lurking?

No, it's accusing cry of

lying

. And with good cause, because she has lied

[crywolf20084]

Lied about what GC?

[mykonian]

ok, explain that to me. I miss how that statement could accuse cry of lying, as the main point seems to be the lack of scumhunting (the lack of action -> lurking)

[Mizzy]

ok, explain that to me. I miss how that statement could accuse cry of lying, as the main point seems to be the lack of scumhunting (the lack of action -> lurking)

No, the lack of scumhunting does

not

mean lurking. Scum don't scumhunt; they already know who scum are so they don't need to hunt for them. So a scummer can be totally active, and not actually do any scumhunting.

[mykonian]

ok, explain that to me. I miss how that statement could accuse cry of lying, as the main point seems to be the lack of scumhunting (the lack of action -> lurking)

No, the lack of scumhunting does

not

mean lurking. Scum don't scumhunt; they already know who scum are so they don't need to hunt for them. So a scummer can be totally active, and not actually do any scumhunting.

that's why I didn't put the arrow between "lack of scumhunting" and lack of action. Crywolf hasn't done a lot, a lack of action. call it active lurking, I guess that covers about what Crywolf did.

Now you are starting a theory discussion what the difference between "lack of scumhunting" and "lurking". I don't know if that is the way to go, but let the rest decide.

[Ether]

Have it your way. Mizzy's

suspicion

of me is very much a factor in my vote. It's the sort of thing that I personally would refer to as OMGUS and most people would not.

I will admit that Crywolf's behavior--I completely agree that she's not looking for scum--is not making me feel better about my current outlook on things.

[q21]

Q21--here's the paragraph I typed up earlier:

If Mykonian is lying, Corporate must be scum (and exactly one of them would be immune to investigations), or else he could sit back and push a Corplynch, and possibly even score a Fuzzlynch immediately after for the win. However, Corpscum does not necessarily imply Mykscum. Corporate's role would also be more likely to be informative: if he's town, don't lynch Mykonian; if he's a goon, Mykonian is guaranteed to be the play. CorpGF is the only possibility that doesn't tell us anything about Mykonian. And hey, if he comes up godfather, we just lynched the godfather, so good job there.

So it's Corporate you'd want to vote here.

I see where your dissent is; I think Option 1 is still somewhat viable if Corporate is a godfather, whereas I find Option 4 extremely difficult to believe. I just can't see Mykscum claiming like that, right off the bat, if Corporate was town. I could see CorpGF in a pinch, but like I've said, I think #3 is the most likely.

You don't believe option four is feasible, I do.

I'll admit I hadn't thought of the possibility of corpGF, but in the end it still leads to two possibilities - one with Myk as miller, one with Myk as scum. All that does is level them off in my book, so no reason to change my vote for it. I kinda see where you're coming from with corp lynch being informative, except that there are two possibilities for me that have corp as town - one has Myk as scum, the other doesn't - so I wouldn't find it that informative.

***

Ether.

I would generally see your crywolf vote as cause for concern, but I kind of feel the same way about her.

Why would you normally see the crywolf vote as a cause for concern? What are these feelings towards crywolf that you feel that Ether also shares?

Its presented as a gut feel vote, I don't generally like gut feel votes. When they differ from how my gut is feeling they feel like a vote out of nowhere.

The shared feelings are that we both feel (possibly felt in ether's case) crywolf is scum but don't have concrete cases, really.

From my 45th post.

Crywolf - Part of this may be personal insult that she completely left me out of her rankings on scuminess/towniness... twice. There is also the fact that someone who leaves someone else out of there list is not paying as much attention as you'd hope for from a townie. Add this to the fact that her day one play wasn't particularly strong and she sits third for me.

I doubt my ands ether's feelings on crywolf originate in the same place - but the fact that they give the same result means her vote didn't feel like it fell out of nowhere and therefore doesn't seem scummy to me.

Out of three perfectly viable explanations one points to corp as scum. Two point to Myk as scum. Therefore I voted Myk. I mentioned Option 2 with my vote because it seems the more likely to me.

Your option two has a GF putting his neck out for a fellow scumbag. That would take an incredibly gutsy/stupid GF to do that - especially when that GF claims miller, and millers are frequently lynched. It's an across the board anti-scum move. You're right: "There's nothing to say that this can't be the case." But then again, I tend to give my fellow players the benefit of the doubt that they first and foremost attempt to win the game. A GF removing himself from a comfortable position of being cleared and putting himself with his neck on the chopping block is the antithesis of a GF scum helping to win a game where the scum are still at full strength.

As it stands, only options 3 and 4 are the only reasonable scenarios that should be considered.

Your logic here is good, though I choose to take the view that people will do the improbable for one of two reasons: ineptitude or specifically because its improbable. Therefore I don't eliminate possibilities unless they make no sense whatsoever (regular townie Myk claiming Miller for example), or are completely ludicrous.

Even if I were to strike Option 2 from my list of options and only look at 3 and 4... one of those two which points at Mykscum, none at corp scum... therefore I'd still like my vote.

***

Awesome, an "I'll vote now, I'll tell you why later" stunt. I hate those.

And what, one OMGUS vote isn't good enough for you, cry, you have to go with yet another? Can't you do anything original?

Didn't you do something like this at the beginning of the game? Voted Fuzzy for bogus reasons and tried to replace them with real reasons later. That's why I started of the game suspecting you.

***

@ Myk 901

So I've been inactive. If you look through you'll see that a huge percentage of my posts are over the weekends - the only time I'm guaranteed to have access. I'm probably just as active over the weekends as most of the other players.

And yes, I take all the options equally. Mafia is not an exercise in probability, its an exercise in human interactions - humans will do the improbable nearly as often as the probable. See above for the two main reasons for that.

[mykonian]

@ Myk 901

So I've been inactive. If you look through you'll see that a huge percentage of my posts are over the weekends - the only time I'm guaranteed to have access. I'm probably just as active over the weekends as most of the other players.

And yes, I take all the options equally. Mafia is not an exercise in probability, its an exercise in human interactions - humans will do the improbable nearly as often as the probable. See above for the two main reasons for that.

I don't attack you for your inactivity, I saw the posts that excuse your inactivity. It is just something that stands out if you look at you.

I think it is not justified to take it all equal. True, some chances even out, or close to, by WIFOM. But WIFOM doesn't mean 50/50. That's because there still is a optimal strategy from each point. So unlikely options, stay less likely. Highly unlikely options stay highly unlikely.

So yes, probability is something that you have to think of when playing mafia. Even better, you do it all the time

When someone makes a very scummy action, it could be that he is town that made a mistake. When someone acts very towny, he could still be brilliantly playing scum:

but it is highly unlikely

[Green Crayons]

Lied about what GC?

Now you are (thankfully) back and with this BS vote on me,

while most have decided that I have actively been actively scum hunting

.

I must have missed the poll where you were able to confidently make this claim. Because filtering the thread for your posts alone does now show what I would consider "actively scum hunting." Quasi-acting in the sense of contributing, maybe. I don't think anyone can reasonably call your play today as active scum hunting, and the fact that you exaggerate your own conduct in a positive manner is a lie.

Even if I were to strike Option 2 from my list of options and only look at 3 and 4... one of those two which points at Mykscum, none at corp scum... therefore I'd still like my vote.

Why are you creating a dichotomy of either a Corplynch or Myklynch? Do not the other players who are currently gathering much needed attention (crywolf, Mizzy and Ether) strike your fancy for a vote?

[Mizzy]

Didn't you do something like this at the beginning of the game? Voted Fuzzy for bogus reasons and tried to replace them with real reasons later. That's why I started of the game suspecting you.

No, I voted someone for anti-town behavior and everyone knew why I did it because I said why. I didn't say Ether had bogus reasons, I said she gave NO reasons.

[mykonian]

Ok GC, we know cry hasn't actively scumhunted.

would any player say he didn't? This is a lie, but wouldn't it be one that town and scum could make?

anyway, crywolf, you can start now

[Green Crayons]

I generally don't tolerate players who lie about their own accomplishments to make other players look bad in comparison.

[mykonian]

I generally don't tolerate players who lie about their own accomplishments to make other players look bad in comparison.

I can agree with this.

the question is if this applies here. Was it intentional?

[crywolf20084]

She. SHE. God how hard is it to remember that?

And okay so i assumed i was in the clear, guess not. I'm gonna post after I finish my chem and precalc homework.

[mykonian]

She. SHE. God how hard is it to remember that?

And okay so i assumed i was in the clear, guess not. I'm gonna post after I finish my chem and precalc homework.

I'm trying, really... esspecially because you seem to be quite concerned with it. But after midnight, I'm not on my sharpest anymore...

[Fuzzyman]

And okay so i assumed i was in the clear, guess not. I'm gonna post after I finish my chem and precalc homework.

I don't like that you fail to post simply because you think that the accusations against you are finally void. This yells out to me as scum trying to be unproductive.

[Ether]

...

Crywolf, I'm going to assume from your ScumChat activity that you can get back to us now.