Mini 707: Cops and Robbers Mafia (Game Over)

[charter]

Vote Count:

Fuzzyman - 3 (corporate, Green Crayons, q21)

Green Crayons - 1 (Empking)
Empking - 2 (crywolf20084, mykonian)

Not Voting: (3)

Mizzy
Ether
Fuzzyman

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch!
Corporate still has time to get his prod.

[Green Crayons]

GC: I have two suspects: fuzzy and empking. I have read something, but those two stand out to me. After the recent posts from both, they both begin to look better. The other people I mainly have no read on.

I know those two stand out to you. But you made it sound like apart from picking one or the other to vote, all you can do is wait for someone else to talk to react.

What about looking for a third scum player? What about asking specific questions for people to respond to to stir up discussion? What about publishing a list of where people stand on your scum-o-meter so people can discussion and reflect?

These are just suggestions I'm putting out of my butt. Feel free to engage in any of them or none of them. What I don't care for, however, (and what you were doing) is suggesting that there is an epidemic of inactivity and you can't do anything about it except wait for someone else to get the ball rolling. I just reeks of finding a really bad excuse to explain your lurking.

Also, I don´t know what "bloated" and "egregiously" mean, so I'm not getting what the problem is with that point against fuzzy.

Regardless of Fuzzyman's alignment, it bugs me the degree to which he made the case on Fuzzyman seem bigger/more important that it actually is in 564. The best example of this poor play is:

Fixed for you.

[mykonian]

Oh, GC, I had already given you a third name if I had one. It is quite hard to find anything against most of the players. Fuzzy and Emp are the only ones I have really an idea about, and I have the feeling that you are town. Yet most of the rest of the people are quite unreadable. That's why I hoped someone would post an idea, might not even be important, but that could give me an idea where or how to look. Maybe it helps if I'm going to count small tells too. I see if I can get a list for you.

So the problem is that Ether thinks the case on Fuzzy is more then it should be. I pointed out a pattern, you pick one point out and say I'm too suspicious. You don't tell us what exactly is wrong with the whole post, you just tell us that that small point is not worth it. I tried to point out that fuzzy continiously switched between the major bandwagons, and that he continiously kept himself the option to switch again. You point out that he doesn't want to vote Simpor (while he tells us there it is an option).

[Ether]

So the rest of the game is boring except that I agree with Canary that Fuzzyman seems to have unvoted based on two points that don't seem to have been related to Fuzzyman's original vote. Anticlimactic. He hasn't explained that yet, and he should.

Mykonian: filtering you in the newbie didn't do much except dishearten me a little, let's move along. What bugged me about your stance on Corporate was the contrast between your "he's town" stance and your 589 insinuation that he'd slipped and cleared Corporate--the stretch would always be off, but it was weirder because you said you thought he was town. I'm going to assume that your unvoting Fuzzyman was solely based on the fact that he was posting at all and was unrelated to his Canary defense.

I think some of your points against Fuzzyman are valid; some are meh. But K stands out to me as an outright lie. Fuzzyman refused to vote Simpor over Corporate at a point where the switch would have been simpler to make; he only made that post because of Canary's hypothetical question about a deadline situation. It bothers me a

lot

that you interpretted this; it strongly implies to me that you're less interested in determining Fuzzyman's alignment and more interested in pumping up a case on him. And...you haven't addressed this specific point of mine, just argued that that wasn't your only post. I'm going to put my

vote: mykonian

back.

Incidentally, what are your opinions of Crywolf and q21?

I'd still like Crywolf to explain her read on Mykonian.

Mizzy and Empking, who are your top three?

Fuzz and Emp are still my top two with a slowly rising Ether. I don't like how she went from total and constant activity with constant harking on the lurkers, to none. Hypocritical in my book.

(The lurker point is fair on its own--I very much believe that lurking is a scumtell. But it's kind of a running gag that I'm a hypocrite and proud.

Read: I can cite posts where I say that a.) hypocrisy is not a scumtell and b.) I hate hypocrites.

)

[mykonian]

I think some of your points against Fuzzyman are valid; some are meh. But K stands out to me as an outright lie. Fuzzyman refused to vote Simpor over Corporate at a point where the switch would have been simpler to make; he only made that post because of Canary's hypothetical question about a deadline situation. It bothers me a

lot

that you interpretted this; it strongly implies to me that you're less interested in determining Fuzzyman's alignment and more interested in pumping up a case on him. And...you haven't addressed this specific point of mine, just argued that that wasn't your only post. I'm going to put my

vote: mykonian

back.

Incidentally, what are your opinions of Crywolf and q21?

This is what I posted then: I know such statements are weak on its own, but here that statement fit in in what he did.

a) rather weak third vote on mizzy in post 104 (not very bad)
b) bandwagon third vote on corporate in post 164 (just follows GC)
c) opens the possibility to vote simpor (fifth) in post 327
d) post 379: votes simpor (L-1) after patrick unvoted, mentions later that patricks unvote was town in his eyes (was to afraid to hammer, but is on the bandwagon, for little to no reason)
e) after some people go of simpor, he votes corporate again post 398. No reasons. And don't say you don't need reasons to vote corporate, because you need to ask yourself the question, is corporate scum, or annoying town?
f) after 406 crywolf votes corporate too, and gets attacked for it! Could you please take a look at fuzzy too?
g) in 421 fuzzy contradicts himself: patrick is cool for unvoting, yet fuzzy votes right after that. If you see that, why don't you vote fuzzy?
h) 424: fuzzy admits to have lied, but the defence in where he lied still keeps of the attack. I learned in my first game to lynch all liars, and in that game town was badly hurt by not doing it. Now you are letting him get away. O yeah, votes simpor again (fourth vote on simpor). No reason, just a common "he is scummy" statement. attack crywolf for the vote on corporate (pot and kettle?)
i) 458: wants to lynch everybody that is currently in the spotlights
j) post 361: and votes corporate again: nothing more.
k) 484: states he also wants to lynch simpor (do you really think we don't know that you don't care who is the lynch, as long it is not you?)
l) 561: and guess who votes simpor again...

And in the end, he votes Simpor. You pick K out as a lie, but if you see the other points around it, don't you see a pattern. It is all in one post... And why did you "forget" that in the end, fuzzy did vote simpor?

Q21: neutral-protown: nice posts, but I don't really know what to think of him. Doesn't really stand out to me.

Crywolf: protown. Dares to take a new stand, is actively scumhunting.

[Mizzy]

Ether:

All I've really decided is as follows:

Townish:

Green Crayons

Neutral:

Ether
corporate
q21

Neutral with a side of possScum:

Fuzzyman
Empking
crywolf20084
mykonian

Those last for are all in one big haze of IGMEOY but I don't know about anything concrete yet.

[Empking]

GC, CW, Ether.

[Ether]

I know what you were getting at. As it happens, I disagree with the general pattern: something I've been saying since 540. Fuzzyman's vote in the end does bother me a bit. I think Simpor was at a point where if Fuzzyman hadn't hammered, someone else would, but I didn't get the impression that Fuzzyman realized this--I do think, regardless of his alignment, he was worried for his own neck at that point.

And I see what you're trying to do. The fact is that I don't have a town read on Fuzzyman. I think your case is sinister regardless of his alignment, and K stands out to me as evidence of this. You're still trying to dodge around that subject.

[mykonian]

ok, I have read mostly his posts, and not your reactions on that, but ok, here you say fuzzy didn't really want to vote simpor.

I also seem to have missed something, that you think I dodge. Should I say something about K in isolation? I have already done that, it would mean nothing on its own. It is the shakyness of fuzzy's votes and the fact that he mainly switched between the main bandwagons, posting little of interest. Could you explain what is sinister about that? It's a nice characterization, but it tells me not what the problem is.

Now it seems we don't get to the problem. I have the feeling I have explained, but clearly you don't. You think something is very wrong with my case, and I can't see it.

[crywolf20084]

Read: I can cite posts where I say that a.) hypocrisy is not a scumtell and b.) I hate hypocrites.

)

I never said that it was a scumtell, I just said you were being one. And it has no bearing on what I think of you.

As for my veiw point on Myko, he's leaning on the town side for me. He hasn't said one thing that has made me think that he's scum.

[crywolf20084]

GC, CW, Ether.

Town Scum, what the hell is this.

_{Sorry for the double post this just caught my eye}

[Green Crayons]

Mizzy and Empking, who are your top three?

[crywolf20084]

Okay, well it would've made sense if he had said, "My top three are:" intstead of just saying three names.

[mykonian]

and it is confusing, as he has two protown players (in my eyes) high in his scumlist.

[Green Crayons]

His adament position that I'm obvscum who is pulling the wool over all your ignorant little eyes (but he has the ray of wisdom that shreds through this dark obfustication that I'm manifesting, so no worries!) should tip you off that it's 1) his scumlist and 2) it should be taken with a grain of salt (and, for good measure, 3) all that bad logic which got him there shouldn't let you get too wound up because high blood pressure is not good for one's health).


So, why is crywolf still voting Emp?

[crywolf20084]

Because, until I find somewhere better to put it, its gonna stay.

[mykonian]

I'm sorry, but what is wrong with a vote on empking? Why should she unvote?

at least it should tell him that we are hoping for a little more then three words in one post.

[Green Crayons]

Well, how do you feel about the discussions surrounding Fuzz?

[mykonian]

I don't think we have recently been busy with fuzzy's actions, but this is what I think of him now.

Esspecially now I see my case back: his day one wasn't strong.

Day two, he seems more protown, there is some action. He goes after empking, but also stops that. I honored that with an unvote. Still I don't know if it would be a good way to deal with his scummy day-1 play. We first had to tell him what had to be changed before he became looking better.

[Green Crayons]

Eh, I didn't see your post when I made my 817. I was actually asking crywolf.


But, in re: 815, I don't feel comfortable voting a player who has been acting so obtuse that he would fail at being scum. Maybe if I thought Emp was incompetent at life I would think he is just bad scum, but he's shown the mental capacity to actually argue and be (semi) rational. It's just that his arguing positions are horrifically bad. Like, beyond face-melting horribly bad. It just seems to me that scum wouldn't harp so long on logic that the whole town has already dismissed as failed because it's just asking for their own lynching. Maybe it's some sort of an ultimate gambit, but I don't buy it. Not at the moment. That's what's wrong with a vote on Emp.

Additionally, I don't see why you're characterizing Emp's play as minimal. He's been pretty vocal on attempting to explain the failings of his logic in the past and his three word post is hardly characteristic of his play at large. Not saying that he's been successful in making his logic legitimate, just that I don't see how you could say he's been anything less than willing to explain why he feels the way he does.

Also, I couldn't help but notice that your reasoning behind a vote staying on Emp is that he isn't being vocal, but you yourself have utilized excuses to explain away your own lack of contribution. Pots and kettles, sir. Hypocritical reasoning behind a vote is bad reasoning behind a vote.


At the moment I would like Fuzz to explain why he originally voted Emp, why he decided to unvote Emp and explain any discrepencies between the two.

[q21]

I apologize about the absence. Once you skip a day of mafia, it keeps getting easier and easier to go on telling yourself that you'll get it done tomorrow, until you eventually become somewhat apathetic.

Anyhow, I'd kind of like to wait for corp/corp replacement to say somethings about recent activities. Until then, though:

q21: who, other than me, do you find scummy?

Other than you?

Emp - I'm still oscillating between bad town and idiot scum on Emp... In 617 he played pretty similarly to how he's playing here, in that game he was the cop. If it weren't for that I'd probably be voting for him, but the memory of that game keeps haunting me. It was painful, Emp wasn't the only one.

Personally I think that Emp would play the way he does as scum or town, i don't think he can help it - he's not someone I'd be comfortable keeping around until the end of the game.

Crywolf - Part of this may be personal insult that she completely left me out of her rankings on scuminess/towniness... twice. There is also the fact that someone who leaves someone else out of there list is not paying as much attention as you'd hope for from a townie. Add this to the fact that her day one play wasn't particularly strong and she sits third for me.

[q21]

GC, CW, Ether.

Town Scum, what the hell is this.

_{Sorry for the double post this just caught my eye}

What interests me about this is that the last time Emp says anything about ether before this he seems to be viewing her as town and explaining his unvote of her earlier.

What changed Emp?

[mykonian]

Eh, I didn't see your post when I made my 817. I was actually asking crywolf.


But, in re: 815, I don't feel comfortable voting a player who has been acting so obtuse that he would fail at being scum. Maybe if I thought Emp was incompetent at life I would think he is just bad scum, but he's shown the mental capacity to actually argue and be (semi) rational. It's just that his arguing positions are horrifically bad. Like, beyond face-melting horribly bad. It just seems to me that scum wouldn't harp so long on logic that the whole town has already dismissed as failed because it's just asking for their own lynching. Maybe it's some sort of an ultimate gambit, but I don't buy it. Not at the moment. That's what's wrong with a vote on Emp.

is this from previous games, or only just this game? (is this meta-defence, or a too scummy fallacy?). You admit his play isn't strong. That is the same that I see.

Additionally, I don't see why you're characterizing Emp's play as minimal. He's been pretty vocal on attempting to explain the failings of his logic in the past and his three word post is hardly characteristic of his play at large. Not saying that he's been successful in making his logic legitimate, just that I don't see how you could say he's been anything less than willing to explain why he feels the way he does.

Also, I couldn't help but notice that your reasoning behind a vote staying on Emp is that he isn't being vocal, but you yourself have utilized excuses to explain away your own lack of contribution. Pots and kettles, sir. Hypocritical reasoning behind a vote is bad reasoning behind a vote.

I have voted him then for scummines (although I can't remember now what it really was), not for lurking. I only reacted on that one post: it would have been nice if he said after every person one sentence why he felt they belonged there in his list. You accuse me of lurking: true, I am having problems getting new ideas up. Further then nitpicking previous posts I don't get at the moment. Doesn't mean that I'm not trying.

[Fuzzyman]

Emp - I'm still oscillating between bad town and idiot scum on Emp... In 617 he played pretty similarly to how he's playing here, in that game he was the cop. If it weren't for that I'd probably be voting for him, but the memory of that game keeps haunting me. It was painful, Emp wasn't the only one.

Then perhaps this would be a good time to claim cop myself.

Corporate is guilty and Myko is innocent.

[Green Crayons]

When did you get corporate result, why didn't you non-stop attempt to get him lynched and why exactly are you claiming?