Mini 727 - Mafia in Standardville - Game Over

[LlamaFluff]

Vote count

Artem (4) - Danchaofan, BSG, Lynx the Antithesis, Charter
BSG (2) - Alvinz95, Xdaamno
Charter (1) - Panzerjager
Artifex (1) - Lowell

Not Voting (4) - Artem, Master Ruck, Artifex, Darox

With 12 alive its 7 to lynch
Deadline is still January 25th

[Danchaofan]

ATM, I find artem the most scummy. You never satisfactorily answered what is wrong with pouncing on easy targets. Sure there are opportunistic scum, but there are also people who, for good reasons, seem scum.

I never fully read this post:

What I

do

find interesting is that you're so concerned with whether I voted or FoSed somebody, while completely disregarding my given reasons. You said that you don't see the WIFOM. It was pointed out to you. Yet you seem adamant about your opinion of charter putting you at L-2.

I can FoS charter. I can also vote for him. It doesn't make much difference right now as there is no bandwagon on him. I'm not pouncing on an easy target. I'm giving him a slap on the wrist, because townies (assuming he is one) shouldn't play with WIFOM as it distracts and confuses the town.

The fact that you're pouncing on me, while disregarding my arguments against charter tells me that you're really not so worried about the bandwagon on yourself. Why would that be? (One scenario may be that charter (or somebody else on your wagon for that matter) is/are (one of) your buddy(-ies), so you know that they may unvote you at any point to prevent a lynch of you.)

So 1) you dodge the issue of acknowledging you wanted to vote for charter but didn't because it would come across as scummy 2) You create a scum team of BSG and charter for really bad reasons. 3) BSG, scum? only if you like omgus

You really like to throw around the wifom accusations but

(b) If I voted for my buddy to distance myself from them, why would I unvote them when they were not in any danger, especially since I didn't vote for anybody else?

is wifrom.

[Danchaofan]

oh, wow, I missed charters post... hmm analyzing now...

[Danchaofan]

Charter asking this time but I still think artem gave the best response =/

And I don't see the WIFOM.

Isnt the WIFOM in question that Panzer said it was scummy to put someone at L-2, then Charter immediately did it as a response to what Panzer said...no scum would open themselves up to scrutiny like that. Or would they, knowing we'd all think that? Or *switching wine, switching wine*

[PJ.]

Way to dodge my question charter. Why did you intentionally lead the game into WIFOM teritory? You purposely put a L-2 vote for virtually no reason after I had said it would be scummy to do so, without explaining yourself. Pressure was already there so if you are town or scum you'd already gained that. The extra advantage you get as scum would be dragging the game into WIFOM territory confusing players and taking discussion off a buddy(I believe discussion on Artem had just start) and on something that we couldn't lynch you for exclusively. I believe you voted to intentionally to pull discussion away from Artem.

And I appreciate the OMGUS suspicion you throw at me at the end of your post.

[charter]

Oh, I still don't think it's WIFOM. Like I said, I think it's scumhunting.

[PJ.]

Since when is delibrately trying to pull pressure off somebody scumhunting?

[Danchaofan]

Maybe I have a slightly more fundamental issue. What's wrong with going after easy targets? i.e. if someone outright states they are mafia, are they an easy target? Should you vote for them? (assuming nothing crazy like suicide roles.)

Going after easy targets is scum tactics. Town goes after scum, not whoever they can lynch easiest. For me, it depends on how someone claims mafia (though it doesn't occur frequently enough to worry about) before I decide whether to vote them, but many players have policies of voting anyone claiming mafia.

I think I might be getting caught up into a semantics argument. I'm assuming someone is easy if they are doing scummy things. Thus, I equated lynching the easy target to lynching the scummy target. The most blatant example of something scummy one could do was to claim scum so I gave that as an example.

[Danchaofan]

Whats wrong with panzer again? Most of your post seemed to address artem.

(wah... I have 2 tabs open in firefox and this seems to have been left out, sorry for the spam)

[charter]

Way to dodge my question charter. Why did you intentionally lead the game into WIFOM teritory? You purposely put a L-2 vote for virtually no reason after I had said it would be scummy to do so, without explaining yourself. Pressure was already there so if you are town or scum you'd already gained that. The extra advantage you get as scum would be dragging the game into WIFOM territory confusing players and taking discussion off a buddy(I believe discussion on Artem had just start) and on something that we couldn't lynch you for exclusively.

If we're calling 'charter put BSG at L-2 after Panzer said putting someone at L-2 is scummy' WIFOM, then I did it because A) I don't think it's WIFOM or scummy, so this whole thing never even entered my head and B) because I saw a great opportunity to uncover links between BSG and anyone and how BSG would react and C) it was coincidental, that was my last post before I was leaving for a while. I fail to see how me doing it right after you said it would be scummy is any more WIFOMy than if I did it a while later either. Since I don't see this, I saw you basically arguing that whoever puts someone at L-2 is suspicious, which is ridiculous.

I believe you voted to intentionally to pull discussion away from Artem.

How do you explain Artem being my top suspect currently?

And I appreciate the OMGUS suspicion you throw at me at the end of your post.

Unfortunately, it isn't OMGUS. You're still going on about L-2 being claiming time, when page two is NOT claiming time, even if you're at L-1. Claiming when not under real pressure is scummy too, so if BSG had claimed we'd have even MORE to work with. Plus, I find your putting someone at L-3 then saying whoever puts them at L-2 is horribly scummy. It A) stops pressure on the person getting wagoned and B) gives you a new person to call scum when someone puts them at L-2. I found your original statement to be quite scummy.

Whats wrong with panzer again? Most of your post seemed to address artem.

Just quoting this as a reminder to myself if panzer is revealed scum.

[PJ.]

Timing always makes a difference.

Although regardless. I agree with you that Artem is the most scummy. You have defended yourself suffciently

Unvote:Vote:Artem

[charter]

Sure you don't want to elaborate on that a little?

[Artem]

So voting someone you find scummier then everyone else is scummy and attacking an easy target? Riiiiiiight. Also, if you FoS someone who is claimed scum, you clearly are a poor player. Assuming their are no Jester-esque roles, you lynch the claimed scum, period.

Artem, I wanted you to answer that.

I'm not entirely sure what else you want me to say. I've provided my view of the "easy target" argument in #68. The rest of your post simply comments on my skill level and provides an advice. I've noted it.

Artem, (b) is Wifom?

(b) If I voted for my buddy to distance myself from them, why would I unvote them when they were not in any danger, especially since I didn't vote for anybody else?

Don't like this. Isn't this WIFOM?

Sure, it's WIFOM if you think that I (as scum) would do something pointless, just for the whole sake of later claiming that it was pointless for scum to do that. I would still like to hear from Lowell why he thinks his reason (b) has good motivation for scum.

If you think what I said is WIFOM, then you should also look at this:

What advantage would I gain as scum doing that I wouldn't gain as town? Why did I do it?

@Charter: I still see what you've done as WIFOM. Lynx sums it up the best:

However, the part most of us find scummy is the fact that charter placed the L-2 directly after Panzer stated it was scummy to do so.

Placing somebody at L-2 to look for reactions is scumhunting. Doing what somebody called scummy

right after they did so

is WIFOM.

Why are you assuming I am town on page 2?

The assumption is made for the sake of the argument. If that assumption is not made, the argument makes no sense.

ATM, I find artem the most scummy. You never satisfactorily answered what is wrong with pouncing on easy targets. Sure there are opportunistic scum, but there are also people who, for good reasons, seem scum.

It's hard to distinguish between scum and town when somebody jumps on an easy target, unless, of course, you know the alignment. However, I used it as an argument to vote Artifex

as my first post in the game during the RVS stage.

I would not seriously consider lynching somebody because I thought they went after an easy target.

So 1) you dodge the issue of acknowledging you wanted to vote for charter but didn't because it would come across as scummy 2) You create a scum team of BSG and charter for really bad reasons. 3) BSG, scum? only if you like omgus

Can you break these up and provide the appropriate quotes, please? I'm having a hard time seeing how you've derived all of that from my three paragraphs.

I will also

Vote: Lowell

because he generally fails to provide reasons behind his words/actions (see his first two posts). He references forgetfullness as a way to avoid providing reasons. When others call him out on him, he draws up a buddying/distancing scenario (how do you forget that in the first place? it feels like he drew up the case when others asked him to provide reasons, rather than the case itself being the reasons) and goes back to lurking.

[PJ.]

Because I think him not voting you but voting Lowell for much less of a reason pretty much ensures that one or both of you are scum.

[PJ.]

EBWOP: Pretty much I think between him not voting you and you taking discussion away from his easy targets things ontop of him voting Lowell for baseless reasons makes me believe you guys are scum together. Decided to re-type because I was vague.

[Artifex]

I fail to see how me doing it right after you said it would be scummy is any more WIFOMy than if I did it a while later either.

Well, if this statement is true

C) it was coincidental, that was my last post before I was leaving for a while.

then I agree with you, and would find nothing suspicious about your actions at all. I just find it really difficult to believe that Panzers actions and yours were unconnected...At the time it was my very strong impression that you had deliberately voted BSG because of what Panzer had said.

@Panzer- is the 'him' in question Charter? Because unless I've really really misunderstood, Charter is indeed voting for artem and not Lowell.

[Artifex]

I went back to go look at those posts, and Charter I dont see how theres any way it was 'coincidental'- you prefaced your vote with the relevant "I think L-2 would be scummy" quote from Panzer and then said:

I see what you're up do. I disagree about putting someone at L-2 being scummy. I also note how you wait to put BSG at L-3 and then say that putting someone at L-2 being scummy.
unvote, vote BSG

I dont see how you can say the idea of it being WIFOM or scummy never occurred to you- it's clear that you were aware of what Panzer was saying and were in fact responding to it.

[PJ.]

Thank you, someone agrees, but for now, let's lynch his scum budddy, Artem.

Also, Artem is the one voting Lowell.

[Darox]

Right. Time for that havoc I promised.

First things first.

I am a paranoid gun owner. For those of you that do not know, this means any role that targets me gets shot. I am claiming now because I believe the negative effect of killing cops and doctors outweighs the chances of me being targeted for a night kill and killing scum.

Secondly,

Vote: Lynx The Antithesis

I really don't dig the way he reacted to the charter L-2 thing. It seems he keeps shifting his position with every other post.

I'm not a huge fan of the Artem L-2 vote from charter

, but I do find it interesting that Artem didn't vote. There's no reason not to vote. I think Artem is being careful not to draw the same attention he received from his first vote.

Changes to

I'm not voting Charter because

I don't find his vote suspicious.

I think it fufilled it's intended purpose by evoking a response. On the otherhand, you FOSed him. You've expressed some suspicion of the move so thats why I asked why you didn't vote for him.

So do you think it's scummy only because of the WIFOM? Do you think that charter is not an opportunistic scum pouncing on an easy target then?

Then changes to

Artem,

I would put someone at L-2 just to see what happens.

Mostly, as a means of pressure to see how the wagonee would react.

And then comes full circle to

However,

the part most of us find scummy is the fact that charter placed the L-2 directly after Panzer stated it was scummy to do so. This is a direct challenge to it and entirely WIFOM

(why would I place the vote if I knew it was scummy? What scum would be so boisterous?)

More interestingly though, is his defence and reassuring of BSG, but then sudden turnaround and denouncement of his actions.

BSG shouldn't be worried about the wagon on himself because the wagon is largely from the random voting. I think to say that's he's not worried because a scum partner's on his wagon is a stretch. I wouldn't be worried about it either because there's no basis for the wagon. There's little he can do to defend it. All he can do is continue to scum hunt which he is currently attempting to do.

I'm sure BSG is a big girl and can handle herself, so why do you feel compelled to hold her hand through it here?

And just for everyone's info as Master Ruck has stated, I first said BSG has nothing to worry about because most of the votes on her were random. So don't jump to the conclusion that BSG is a calm townie because I may have instilled some sense of safety in her without hearing from her first. Fault on me cause it defeats any purpose of gauging her reaction from the wagon.

The biggest problem I have here is BSG

did

speak up before you leapt to her aid, but you seem to be eager to state that there is no point in trying to read about her reactions because you 'ruined' them. It seems like a good way to absolve your previous actions as well as turn down any inquiring looks into BSG's play.

Oh yes, hi Lowell, hi Charter.

[Master Ruck]

I'm tempted to agree with the Artem lynching as well. His overall feel seems like he's gain everyone's attention then try and send it somewhere else. If he is scum, this may be a good way to protect scum mates as we've tended to ignore that redirection and keep focusing on him instead.

Charter definitely has entered a whole realm of WIFOM, even if he really didn't mean it, and I don't see any way he can get out of it. I had to look carefully for his reasons to vote as they were squashed into 2 lines hidden amongst a wall of quote. Again, whether it be intentional or not, Charter is doing himself no favours at all by acting in such a way.

Still, for now I will

Vote: Artem

due to his big post targetting charter, dan, and pretty much every other user then he makes one small paragraph on Lowell and votes him for that. If he was gonna do a big post like that, I would expect some more reasons or at least more explanation as to why he would make a vote as OMGUS as that.

[Xdaamno]

The original attack on Artem was obvious BS, but I'm surprised Artem needed me to point that out for him.

After a re-read, it's a good lynch right now.

Vote: Artem

[PJ.]

That's lynch,

Huge FoS

On Darox for that claim. I'm not sure if I believe hence the FoS because it's a Mini Normal not a Mini theme, so unless there is an ungodly ammount of power here, I really don't like it. Also it's a very easy claim to hide behind seeing as now nobody targets him. I more likely see him as a Survivor(not bad) or an SK(really bad) or he can be plan old scum(bad)

[BSG]

Not yet.

[01] VOTING METHOD: Votes must be in bold. example: Vote: LlamaFluff If you do not bold your vote, it will not be counted. You must unvote before casting another vote, if you wish it to count.

Xdaamno hasn't unvoted me.
Xdaamno, did you know that your vote would be the hammer?
Why didn't you wait for a claim, if you knew? Why didn't you check the votes if you didn't know? And why are you voting Artem?
Will react to the other posts soon.

[charter]

unvote

I'm not ready for today to end.

[PJ.]

Thats L-2 then

and I was saving this for Day 2 but Xdaamno, why didn't you wait for a claim. Seemed like oppurtunistic hammer vote. No reason, no nothing.

I would still like a claim from Artem.