Mini 698 - Georgetown Mafia - Game over

[Huntress]

Vote Count

Cephrir 3 - (OhGodMyLife, Qwints, Jazzmyn)
Apothecary 1 - (MacavityLock)

Not voting 5 - (Apothecary, Cephrir, Corvuus, Elmo, LLamaFluff)

With nine players alive, it takes five votes to lynch.

[qwints]

checking in/bump

[Jazzmyn]

Hi, all

The timing of the site going down was unfortunate for me as it was down by the time I got home from work on Monday, and while I had lots of time to play early in the week, I had next to no time to play in the latter part of the week. However, I have all weekend now, so I will definitely catch up soon.

Regards,
Jazz

[Cephrir]

Still here.

[OhGodMyLife]

I´m confused. Why are we still on day two?

[Corvuus]

maybe cause i'm a slow reader.

Cor

[LlamaFluff]

I´m confused. Why are we still on day two?

I just want the reread from Jazz, I have her as town right now and would rather get a little more information about the game from my town reads before I put my vote on Ceph.

[Corvuus]

Trying to re-read everyone is so-so in terms of helpfulness so I just re-read Ceph more in isolation and OMGL/MM.

Here is my view of Ceph and thoughts on the game:

Ceph's first couple of votes are random stage-ish so I will ignore those. He does like to vote and say 'reasons later' but that isn't insanely horrible to me.

His first serious vote was to get Primate to stop his 'voluntary' PR.

He then FoS' and votes for SC... and basically never votes or FoS' *anyone* else for the rest of the time (at least that I can see except for MM when he is *asked to place his vote*). He unvotes after SC's claim but doesn't vote Apoth (or FoS apoth or do that much in the beginning) but then he comes out with MM (OGML now) as being SC's scumbuddy.

That... is probably the single most 'darning evidence'. SC as scum claims doc in attempt to kill a real doc (if we have one), survives another round (but he will be lynched eventually before end of game), Ceph gets on SC's wagon to look townie (Ceph has voted or FoS SC the entire game practically), *AND* Ceph stays off Apoth so that when town lynches town, the odds of there being "no scum" on the wagon at all is slim and by setting MM (OGML) as SC's scumbuddy when SC does flip scum, MM (OGML) may be lynched next as the fall guy and thus the end game is 'do-able' since SC's scum lynch would cost town at least 3 players so scum team can still 'eek' out a win.

I guess if Ceph had ever addressed more why MM/OGML was scummy, then I would be less certain but... MM being replaced by OGML threw out the old plan of 'pinning the guilt on the newbie MM' who would have been ineffective at defending himself from being a scumbuddy lynch. Ceph 'backtracking' from OGML as scum and not really being able to say why MM/OGML was scum/scummy and why they were buddies... makes me believe it is a scum ploy and that Ceph is scum (plus Ceph-SC interaction with each other, and comments when I made my illogical leap from Primate to SC being scum).

Ceph also had ample time to defend himself and this position but he hasn't, even when I unvoted and he could have come out and said many things to try to convince me and such... instead, I just re-read, re-think and find that I do see OGML's point of Ceph trying to pawn MM off as scumbuddy, etc. and that, in addition to other points, brings me back to...

vote Cephrir

You had a chance to convince me before my re-read; but now I am certain.

Corvuus

[Cephrir]

Well, I'd try to help point out scum before I go but I really can't figure out where they're hiding. qwints is currently my top pick both because of his bizarre behavior on my wagon and because Ythill's Atlas case carries a lot more weight IMO now that Ythill's dead and town. And like I said before, make sure you guys don't let OGML slip under the radar just because he lynched SC yesterday.

Vote: qwints

and good luck town, I'm obviously dead within... eh, 3 posts or so.

[MacavityLock]

Apoth, what are your opinions of Ceph? What are your opinions of anyone for that matter?

[qwints]

Cephrir, I assume the "bizarre" play you refer to is my giving reasons that you disagreed with. Sure I could be wrong, but I'm increasingly sure that you're scum. One more piece of evidence is your referral to Ythill's death. You've said that the only possible explanations for that are 1) I am scum or 2) Scum is trying to frame me. Now you're saying that ythill's death proves that he was correct about atlas. Even though Ythill changed his position on Atlas before I subbed in. Furthermore, speculating about motives for nightkills at this point in the game is pure WIFOM.

Obviously neither OGML nor I are confirmed town, but Ceph is still the most likely scum.

[Elmo]

I don't think Ceph is scum. I don't strongly think he's town, either, and I can't bring myself to defend the :nothelpful:, and I don't really have a better lynch lined up. But qwints can expect a grilling tomorrow from me if Ceph flips town (I imagine I've made the point by now). That said, I don't see this day going anywhere else, so I don't object to ending the day.

I also have this question mark about LF. I am curious why (going from memory) you said ML going back to Apoth is a "huge black mark" against him, it doesn't strike me as scummy rather than a disagreement with you. This is moreso because I think he's quite likely town.

[LlamaFluff]

I also have this question mark about LF. I am curious why (going from memory) you said ML going back to Apoth is a "huge black mark" against him, it doesn't strike me as scummy rather than a disagreement with you. This is moreso because I think he's quite likely town.

I just dont think SC would of pushed his scum buddy Apoc the way he did when there were other options available. There was the early Atlas wagon, there was my push on Ythill, there was the talk of an MM wagon. SC just kind of sat on the Apoc wagon though the entire time, without really showing any intention of ever moving his vote. Due to this I just have to put Apoc as town, I dont see it as bussing.

ML going back to Apoc while ignoring the SC -> Apoc pushing. The Apoc -> SC connections primarily consist of "wishy washy" which could be applied Apoc -> anyone really. Apoc scum just doesnt seem right, and they way ML just dives right into that suspicion feel wrong.

[Elmo]

I agree that Apoc is less likely to be scum because of SC's interactions with him, but I don't see why ML's suspicion "feels wrong" as opposed to a townie being misguided. It seemed quite natural, from what I recall, not like he dived into it... what specifically do you think he's less likely to have done if he were town?

[LlamaFluff]

I agree that Apoc is less likely to be scum because of SC's interactions with him, but I don't see why ML's suspicion "feels wrong" as opposed to a townie being misguided. It seemed quite natural, from what I recall, not like he dived into it... what specifically do you think he's less likely to have done if he were town?

Done more research on how the tell he is using to show the Apoc -> SC connection can be applied to Apoc -> most people, and use more of the SC -> Apoc connection given that in his post 58 had almost twice as many Apoc -> SC interactions then the other way around. When you just look at the Apoc -> SC interactions it does look like scum buddy interactions, but SC -> Apoc/other suspects makes Apoc look very town.

It just seems like ML is way tunneled in on Apoc due to ignoring most of the intereactions between SC and other players. He either is tunneled or lazy if he is town. Also I dont get how it is "quite natural" when no other player who was voting Apoc during D1 has continued to vote Apoc D2.

@ML - Can you explain why interactions between SC and other players apart from Apoc make Apoc scum? Primarily focusing on SC-other wagon possibilities (Ythill, MM, Atlas).

Still waiting for Jazz to reread before I vote.

[Cephrir]

Now you're saying that ythill's death proves that he was correct about atlas.

I didn't say it proved anything. I just find it a bit more believable.

Elmo, you keep saying I'm not being helpful... what can I do that I haven't?

[MacavityLock]

@ML - Can you explain why interactions between SC and other players apart from Apoc make Apoc scum? Primarily focusing on SC-other wagon possibilities (Ythill, MM, Atlas).

I'm confused. Ythill is dead town. MM/OGML doesn't make much sense as an SC-buddy anymore as I described, though I am looking at that mostly as OGML -> SC interactions vs other way around. Atlas/qwintz is currently my second scummiest read. (Changes to that will likely depend on Jazz.)

I'm focused on Apoth because as I said, he was my scummiest read yesterday and SC-scum, Yt-town doesn't invalidate that. That doesn't mean I can't/won't change my mind, but the Ceph case doesn't convince me.

I'm going to request an extension on long in-depth posts for the moment due to my LA at the moment/no access 15th-19th. If people need it, I'll try to dig deeper into SC -> other people interactions, and can formalize a case on Atlas/qwintz when I get back. (Don't expect all that stuff on the 20th exactly.)

[Apothecary]

Honestly, I don't like how fast the Cephrir case has gone. It just seemed to start up right at the beginning of the day, and it's been running ever since. I can't say I particularly like him, but I'm apprehensive about lynching him so fast. One thing I will complain about is his lack of defense now. Same sort of thing happened to me yesterday though...

Llamafluff seems to be town. He's been constantly hunting, so that could be a good sign.

Corvuus I would imagine is town. He's been posting consistently, projecting his suspicions and backing them up.

Elmo... He's been a strong pusher for the Ceph wagon. I don't think he's scum, but I strongly disliked the wagon.

Don't know about Qwints or Jazz, and I feel that OMGL has pushed two wagons very well. He could be a townie who's just made connections we haven't seen.

As for you. I find it interesting that you still persist with the Wagon against me. I don't find it scummy, but I don't like it. One thing that niggled me was the long post you made drawing connections between me and SC, and posted afterwards exclaiming you wouldn't do the same on Ceph. That seemed very.... Interesting.

[Corvuus]

Ceph: do you have anything to say about my post?

As to why I might be wrong, tunnel visioned or anything like that?

Cor

[MacavityLock]

One thing that niggled me was the long post you made drawing connections between me and SC, and posted afterwards exclaiming you wouldn't do the same on Ceph. That seemed very.... Interesting.

As Ceph is in the middle of my scumlist right now, I don't feel like I should be the one building a case on him, nor do I feel like I should be defending him specifically. What else could a long in-depth post accomplish?

[Apothecary]

It jsut shows where you stand on certain issues more clearly. But it looked to me (biased viewpoint, of course) that you were attacking me, and keeping the focus on me, rather than post on Cephrir as well.

I never said anything about building a case, or defending him. Just showing us where you stood at that point. You certainly showed where you stand on me. It'd be nice to see that clarity on the main suspect of most people.

[Elmo]

Elmo... He's been a strong pusher for the Ceph wagon. I don't think he's scum, but I strongly disliked the wagon.

I what what the what? Are you confusing me with OGML?

[MacavityLock]

I never said anything about building a case, or defending him. Just showing us where you stood at that point. You certainly showed where you stand on me. It'd be nice to see that clarity on the main suspect of most people.

I was quite specific in those posts about how I felt about Ceph.

[Cephrir]

One thing I will complain about is his lack of defense now.

I did try to defend myself from OGML at first, but it seems pretty hopeless as even a few players who aren't voting me have declared an intent to. I would think that the general lack of hesitation on my wagon would make a few players realize what (I assume) is going on here. If a mafiate was getting lynched today, their partner if they have one would probably be defending them to the max realizing that they could get screwed. Anyway, since both you and Corv seem to want a defense against Corv.

He then FoS' and votes for SC... and basically never votes or FoS' *anyone* else for the rest of the time (at least that I can see except for MM when he is *asked to place his vote*). He unvotes after SC's claim but doesn't vote Apoth (or FoS apoth or do that much in the beginning) but then he comes out with MM (OGML now) as being SC's scumbuddy.

Not voting much isn't a scumtell? My vote typically moves around a lot at first then sticks in one place, be it a player or no one, for most of any given day until I see something I can really get behind or make a case of my own... isn't that how most people do it?

That... is probably the single most 'darning evidence'. SC as scum claims doc in attempt to kill a real doc (if we have one), survives another round (but he will be lynched eventually before end of game), Ceph gets on SC's wagon to look townie (Ceph has voted or FoS SC the entire game practically)

This is exactly like OGML's case. The motivation you assign to my SC vote is that I'm trying to look townie, but at the point at which I voted SC, that wagon wasn't really moving yet. I think I was one of the more pivotal votes there that allowed the shift, and I hate to bring up meta, but I've never bussed anyone (the only exception being on one occasion when I realized my scumbuddy had been investigated guilty). I had figured SC was scum all day, and when OGML offered a chance to get rid of him I was all for it.

*AND* Ceph stays off Apoth so that when town lynches town, the odds of there being "no scum" on the wagon at all is slim and by setting MM (OGML) as SC's scumbuddy when SC does flip scum, MM (OGML) may be lynched next as the fall guy and thus the end game is 'do-able' since SC's scum lynch would cost town at least 3 players so scum team can still 'eek' out a win.

I just get tired of saying this. All the cases I've seen against me today have decided that I'm scum before the case is actually made. Yes, it's possible that I'm scum and my motivation is as you've interpreted it. But there's also the possibility that I just wasn't sure about Apoth and believed MM was scum.

I guess if Ceph had ever addressed more why MM/OGML was scummy, then I would be less certain but... MM being replaced by OGML threw out the old plan of 'pinning the guilt on the newbie MM' who would have been ineffective at defending himself from being a scumbuddy lynch.

Or alternatively, OGML entered the game and began playing in a pretty protown manner, and it took me a while to forgive the role for its previous incarnation.

Ceph 'backtracking' from OGML as scum

See above, and also I was probably being OMGUSy. I can't help it sometimes >.<

and not really being able to say why MM/OGML was scum/scummy and why they were buddies... makes me believe it is a scum ploy and that Ceph is scum (plus Ceph-SC interaction with each other, and comments when I made my illogical leap from Primate to SC being scum).

Well as to my pairing him up with SC, that was just an overdramatic statement made because I believed both were scum, not because of any connections between the two. If you really want me to go post why I thought MM was scummy then I will do that; I thought it was glaringly obvious.

Ceph also had ample time to defend himself and this position but he hasn't, even when I unvoted and he could have come out and said many things to try to convince me and such...

I don't know why no one can find my initial defense from OGML. It's there, people. I don't know why anyone blames me for ceasing to try after I was on L-1 for about forever with multiple players expressing a desire to hammer me.

instead, I just re-read, re-think and find that I do see OGML's point of Ceph trying to pawn MM off as scumbuddy, etc. and that, in addition to other points, brings me back to...

This says absolutely nothing. Neither you nor OGML, nor anyone, has invalidated my initial defense; OGML basically just steamrolled over it because he'd already decided I was scum. You yourself used the words "tunnel vision"; it's quite applicable both to your case and OGML's.

[Corvuus]

Your post does make me consider and worry that this may be a mislynch but you are still NOT being helpful and trying.

and all your self-pity type wording with "I am the lynch for the day, I give up" is just silly. If you think OGML's case is crap, and Qwints is scummy, then go for it. The players who said that they will vote for you and even I have said that your attitude isn't helping.

As I said, I can imagine it being 50-50 still. You could be town and be town doing all those things and this is a mislynch and it could all make sense. Or you could be scum and scum doing all those things and it would all make sense as well.

Stating that "it sucks that the entire argument is based on me being already scum" and then giving up is kind of dumb.

OGML is not a unstoppable juggernaut and automatic steamroll over you and get you lynched. To say he is, is a cop-out.

All in all, I don't see why you didn't write what you wrote just now earlier and tried to make a better and clearer defense than your first 'initial defense'. You said it before that your vote on MM was based on MM being scum (independently) and that you thought SC was scum (independently) but I don't see why you said MM was SC's scumbuddy (as opposed to just being scummy) back when you said it and part of my reason for voting for you now is that your case on MM is pretty crappy.

MM never did say SC was a beacon of pro-towniness. If anything MM was wary of SC's claim and a potential 'scum' wing from him. Your 'FoS/vote/scum' read on MM doesn't fit for me. I didn't think MM had been particularly scummy or scummy enough to get a "sc-buddy" mention as opposed to a 'lurker' mention and several other things you said make it seem strange.

I.e. you said it would be impossible for MM to get through the game without a wagon on him. He did have a wagon on him early (due to random votes and other stuff i think) and his play made me consider him town (due to my read of him and his other games i know). Maybe the SC-MM interaction is the buddy linking you are thinking of, but SC... well.. he *always* does that and he is virtually always scummy in all his games. So SC's comments, your comments and MM's comments still lead me towards MM being newbie town, SC as scum, and Ceph as potential SC scumbuddy.

If anything I also re-read SC and SC... is an interesting player. He said he had scum vibes from Cephrir (for mindlessly bandwagoning, not explaining votes, etc.) and Zeppo and Ythill. Then after his whole claim/doc and such, he says Zeppo and Ythill look ok to him now with no mention of Cephrir. SC even says that he has reason to believe Cephrir is town but he never gives his reasons (post#105). If anything Ceph is more likely SC's scumbuddy than MM.

I have various other things and reads but my head is hurting and I think I should organize them better.

Ceph, you need to keep going if you want to convince me otherwise I am still ok with your lynch.

Corv