Mini 730 - Hard Nights in the City - OVER!

[Plum]

/confirmations go!

[Plum]

Vote: Plum

For not posting since confirmations[/b]

Hiya, sorry about that. Will hopefully have a post for you tomorrow, just checking in fast and telling you I'm here. Dunno how serious that vote was meant to be? More later.

[Plum]

First notes as I read the first few pages. This post will hopefully come with a tl;dr summary at the bottom for those of you who'd prefer that to my wordy stream of conciousness summaries and opinions. FOSs will be thrown around, perhaps a bit liberally, but if necessary they'll be pared down at the end of the post.

Geraintm says that he usually doesn't post on the weekends; Nameless expresses hope that he's Mafia and the disadvantage won't be with the town; Geraintm says that limited weekend access isn't usually detrimental; this is all fairly standard. Danchaofan (henceforth Dan, all right?) votes Geraintm saying that saying weekend V/LA probably won't hurt town much = WIFOM, scummy. Weird and not true; this is about random voting stage and here we have an apparently serious vote for . . . craplogic? Noted,

FOS: Dan

.

Nameless notes it as well.

Don_johnson selfvotes. I wonder what this will develop into, and probably will have some sort of question at the end of this post. Dunno, but being in a game with Natirasha, who has a habit of always selfvoing regardless of alignment, has made my gut attitude towards selfvoting more nulltell than scumtell. Let's see.

Mega notes the uselessness of selfvoting, lack of info etc., votes Dan.

Quote from Don_J:

funny. it is "ridiculously stupid" and has "no benefit", yet you use my self vote to show your towniness.

Wait, what does this have to do with anything? Everyone's trying to prove their alleged townieness; the point was that selfvoting generally tells little about the voter. Yes?

Interesting

vote on Nameless by Porkens; new direction. Personally I do see the angle that at the very least Dan might have been looking for a vote excuse, as his vote was clearly not random and yet the reason was rediculously weak.

[quote="Porkens"[/i]And how do you know Ger is town, anyway?[/quote]
Doesn't matter much; unless someone had a good case for Geraintm being scum at that point (not the case) then a serious-looking vote at on him at that stage of the game with the explanation provided by Dan did look somewhat scummy. Followed by

You know what, don't even bother answering. Lynch this man.

vote: Nameless

I've got my eye on Porkens now. Moving on.

The implication is from nameless is that gera is on the mafia side, to which gera respons something about 'us'. This is wifom as surely no mafia would imply that they are mafia. Or, would they? =P[/b]

At that point in the game, unmarked 'I' or 'us' pronouns automatically imply Town, yes? In any case Geraintm clearly stated 'nope' on the question of him being Mafia before using 'us' anyway . . . Dan seems to have seen some weird implication that he's Mafia. Odd.

Don_J's response to Mega's argument against selfvoting is good, clear, and makes sense. I can deal with selfvoting in the random stage, I suppose. Mega's response contains some trufax, but I do see legit discussion coming out of selfvotes as well as other random-stage votes. Different situations and tells may comme out, but I don't see selfvoting as more likely to result in a town-on-town fight and townie lynch than regular selfvoting, so long as a bunch of townies aren't too closeminded about selfvoting in general.

Penguin comments, but doesn't contribute to serious or non serious discussion, is that suspicious?

I was just surprised that things got hot and heated so quickly. I'm used to things starting slowly with a little bit of fun random voting. But I see that the methods shown by this group thus far has done a fine job of stimulating discussion therefore - no problem here!

So Penguin resonds without contribution to discussion?

FOS: Penguin

. He does actually comment in his next post or so. Barely. Canadianbovine too. Atronach's first two posts are a random vote (he might comment, but I'll deal), and the second just asking for formatting help.

discussion does not always help town i.e. excessive discussion that makes town's head spin...

The implication is from nameless is that gera is on the mafia side, to which gera respons something about 'us'. This is wifom as surely no mafia would imply that they are mafia. Or, would they? =P

Current serious level:-25%

I saw his use of "us" to mean "the town." You're really grasping at straws.

RVS votes tend to grasp at straws?

Says that his vote was random? Let me take a look.

two to confirm and me and gera just in'd so I guess so.

nope
you think it will hurt us that much?

why the WiFom?

vote: geraintm

Seems like it has a real reason; semi-random, maybe, just hitting on something he found slightly suspect? Could and should have made it much clearer.

The implication is from nameless is that gera is on the mafia side, to which gera respons something about 'us'. This is wifom as surely no mafia would imply that they are mafia. Or, would they? =P

Current serious level:-25%

Can I but that it was random after seeing this? I'll reserve judgment for now in light of rereading the above.

Mega is pushing very hard for early, weak points. He's also placing vote/lynching under general discussion, and his idea of scum being more sensitive than town to votes is bad (I'd say a player's personality would have has much impact and townie power roles would be as sensitive anyway). Suspicious, and that's not a question this time.

I want Megas response to this. It seems to be a good point.

Active lurking, parroting much? Bad vibe on that in any case.

[quote="Megatheory

I'm not pushing towards your lynch. I'm not voting for you. I don't find you suspicious. You are using some weird logic and I am interested in seeing where this goes, but if you are willing, I'd be fine with droping this altogether.

This after yet another long post arguing about selfvoting with DonJ. If he really wasn't suspicious of DonJ (yeah, he wasn't voting for him yet wasn't commenting at all on Dan, the subject of his vote; odd) I doubt he'd have tried to keep the discussion going like that and certainly . . . looks like pushing a possible future wagon, opening up possibilities for a (would be bad, in my humble opinion) future case on DonJ, and yet still can say that he doesn't see the logic in the belief that he's suspicious of DonJ or pushing suspicions on him. If there were no suspicions, I believe the discussion would have rather lost wind on Mega's side; DonJ was still just defending his random vote . . .

I must sound incoherent. I'm just seeing little motivation for town-Mega to act that way about DonJ for so long and yet not suspect him. As something hopefully minor-ish if you don't find it scummy, you're sure spending a lot of forcefully-woded posting on it

FOS: Megatheory

.

And Juls, you haven't voted yet. Why?

Because nothing has compelled me to vote yet. I was thinking about throwing a joke vote out there but conversation got underway. I don't think don_johnson is scummy for self voting and I dont thing megatheory is scummy for making a huge deal out of it. I am watching and reading and when I get ready to place a vote I will do so.

As Chaos said:

I'm suggesting that discussing things that really don't benefit the town and can't be used to determine someone's alignment are bad.

Oh, irony.[/quote]

Seriously, the thoery discussion has gone so very far and accomplished . . . suspicions of Mega on my part, for one thing. Combined with

And Juls, you haven't voted yet. Why?

Because nothing has compelled me to vote yet. I was thinking about throwing a joke vote out there but conversation got underway. I don't think don_johnson is scummy for self voting and I dont thing megatheory is scummy for making a huge deal out of it. I am watching and reading and when I get ready to place a vote I will do so.

Sounds like scum sitting in the background waiting for a convenient wagon... =P

Sparking discussion isn't the reason for giving a reason while voting, it a) can convince other people that the person voted for is scum and deserves more votes b) reveals poor logic or possible scum motives making the voter a candidate for scum.

This was the only post between one of Mega's arguments (while he was still voting Dan) and the unvote post in which he said he liked the way Dan was responding to the votes (er, two votes only, guys? Really) and said he seems 'pretty townish so far'. Hm. I just don't see as much logicsl progression here as I'd like, gut is acting, etc.

Participation is that name of the game, Juls; let's see if you contribute more as I finish reading. Ah, no, she doesn't (offtopic: Wow, a girl; I'm not alone!). Juls, if you're not comfortable with a vote at this point, I can deal. But (and this has become my mantra) CONTRIBUTE. You don't find either side suspicious; fine, but a quick sentence or two on why not, and/or perhaps something you

do

find moderately suspicious, please? Your lack of participation is anti-town and in my opinion more likely to be actually scumy than DonJ's RVS selfvote.

Let's see how much attention I have for my tl;dr:

- DonJ's RVS selfvote is arguably moderately anti-town but not a scumtells.

- Mega's long discussion on selfvoting-theory is distracting, and because he continued lengthening it and forcefully arguing with DonJ about it despite the fact that apparently h didn't suspect DonJ . . .

- Juls needs to participate even if she won't vote and it'll be suspicious if she doesn't.

- Porkens' sure stance on Namelesss and lack of real explanation there

My head is going to start hurting soon.

Vote: Megatheory

, suspicions on anyone else I've expressed suspicion of, the the appropriate degree.

Annoyed that I missed that much-discussed random voting stage.

[Plum]

Plum...excellent post...exactly what this game needed to get going.

Thanks, but now I'm going to have to try really hard to ignore this, as I find flattery can be annoyingly distracting from my actual suspicions, and, unfortunately, scum have complimented me in the past and benefitted from it (flattery changed my vibe on a game's SK once, as Nameless might vaguely recognize. Bad).

Anyway, it's funny that you say this while we have apparently opposite thoughts on the same subject, both at the beginnings of our latest posts: You apparently think that Geraintm was playing over-innocent by appearing not to know the definition of WIFOM? No, asking whether Nameless really believed that assuming Geraintm-town, the weekend V/LA would be really detrimental to the town. There's no wine about it. In any case, Dan eventually explained that he meant that the WIFOM was in Geraintm appearing to imply that he was scum. That was a stupid,pardon me, idea on Dan's part but I don't see the freaking WIFOM in it. And I certainly don't see any indication that Geraintm knowingly used WIFOM at all, and that his question you quoted certainly had nothing to do with him pretending not to know what WIFOM means. Huh.

[Plum]

I think Geraintm played it over innocent throughout that whole discussion. His not knowing what WIFOM was, his innocent question of "do you really think it will hurt us that bad?" when he should definately know that lack of contribution on weekends would not be very detrimental. The whole sequence struck me as too dumbfounded and innocent.

It was obvious that Geraintm's 'Why the what?' comment was 'what WIFOM are you talking about' not 'what do you mean by WIFOM'. His response about 'do you really think it will hurt us that bad' agrees with your statement that it would not be very detrimental, as Nameless was implying that it might imply some sort of disadvantage for whatever alignment Geraintm is. Geraintm's agreeing with you there, so I don't see your complaint; the one who believed it might be detrimental to the town was Nameless (arguably, as the 'I hope you're Mafia if you can't post on weekends' seemed considerably less than fully serious to me anyway.

[Plum]

If 'on the weekends' means 'on Saturday and Sunday' by Geraintm, no one should have reason to worry that his window of opportunity for night actions will be entirely cut off.

Mentioning this: I'm always V/LA from Friday afternoon through Saturday evening, no exceptions; exact times vary throughout the year, but in what should be a quick-ish game, you'll probably not see much variation. As above, if I have a night action to send my brief weekly V/LA will not interfere with the sending thereof.

[Plum]

i liked your post, though i would definitely request less "stream of consciousness" posting. i do it as well sometimes, but i find it easier to communicate when things are structured well.

Sure, sorry about that; just having started from the beginning of the game with three pages to analyze it sort of came out that way. Rest assured that my posts aren't, as a rule, structured like the one you mentioned.

[Plum]

Plum: 8
1) Very insightful post by you on your thoughts on the game. Though it was hard to follow, I get a good feeling that you are wanting the best for the town.

Fine (note to self: the Preview button is there for a reason).

2) Why is it obvious that geraintm's question was that he didn't understand what the WIFOM was for? I don't follow. Why couldn't it be that he didn't understand what WIFOM stands for?

On reread, I suppose it's possible that such was the case. Knowing that he's played games (occasionally followed one he happened to be in), it simply did not occur to me as a possibility. I still think that my first interpretation is more reasonable, especially as it's known that sarcasm often has a hard time traveling the internet gulf

3) Other than mega, who you voted for for good reasons IMO, who would you vote for if you could? Porkens? Who do you think is appearing t he most townie thus far?

Porkens . . . meh, apparently his stabs at Nameless were sarcastic (another example of the above principle), though I don't happen to have Vibes of Awesomeness on him either. Juls, maybe.

While I won't be quite as sarcastic about it as DonJ was about it, it

was

nice for you to put forth some decentish analysis and ask some relevent-seeming questions.

Nameless makes a good point about Juls as well. Canadianbovine is yet another poster who needs to put forth some real substance. So Juls has voted Penguin for a post of little substance even though she's posted with little substance; Penguin expresses strong suspicions of ChaosOmega for lack of substance despite his previous general lack of substantial contribution.

Those who live in glass houses people, is all I'm saying. Hypocrisy is straight-up anti-town.

you are willingly hopping onto a bandwagon with two players you find scummier than the person you are trying to lynch. you rate both chaosomega and me as scummier than megatheory(co:3,dj:3, mt:3.5). yet you vote for megatheory. please explain your rationale behind this vote.

This right here.

[Plum]

She uses phrases like "this post is long enough" when the majority of the post is just quotes, flattery, apologising for noncontribution before this point, or in one case just an agreement.

Ouch. I apologize if you didn't find my analysis of a whole 3 pages (where probably 2 were the don_johnson/megatheory arguement) to be long enough. My comment that "this post is long enough" was because it seemed long enough to me. I am not a big fan of writing books when I post. And it felt longer since I read for a good hour while making that post.

Accusation: The bulk of the post in question consisted of flattery, quotes, agreement, and apologies for lack of contribution.

Response: The analysis was long enough, seemed long enough to her, she doesn't like writing long posts, and it felt long to her because she spent a while on it.

Conclusion: The reply didn't answer the accusation. Let's just look at how accurate the accusation was . . .

Plum...excellent post...exactly what this game needed to get going.

It's so unspecific that I'm unhesitant in calling it flattery-ish

I have not contributed yet to scumhunting, I admit,

That would be an apology

but it is more to do with the fact that I find this theory debate extremely ridiculous and want no part of it. I am going to do a thorough reading right now and summarize my thoughts below:

So here are my thoughts/comments/questions/etc/ thus far:

why the what?
i was just asking if he realyl thought me not posting 2 days a week would be that bad?

I find it a bit hard to believe that someone who has played mafia for 3 years has never heard of WIFOM. Perhaps trying to come off as too innocent. Probably a bit of meta is in order here to see his level understanding of the game.

There's nothing like completely skipping the RVS and getting right into the game!

I was just surprised that things got hot and heated so quickly. I'm used to things starting slowly with a little bit of fun random voting. But I see that the methods shown by this group thus far has done a fine job of stimulating discussion therefore - no problem here!

Everything in this post is WIFOM - The use of 'us' is WIFOM, the 'or would they' is WIFOM, etc. But I see you are joking....or are you!

Come on, it is an unofficial phase....I'll answer. Not really. It would put him at two votes. And you would need some sort of explanation as you and mega haven't really interacted at all just yet.

And FYI -

Vote: canadianbovine

BLAME CANADA!!!!

I would just say that talk is most of the time a benefit to the town. But scum can be opportunistic and add to the suspicion of innocent townies, which can stem from too much discussion or fingerpointing from an uneducated town.

Also I would agree that voting is the backbone of the game - how people react to a vote or building wagon on them can be the greatest tell as to what they are.

Bunch of quotes here

These are all the posts by insanepenguin. Fairly active with zero substance. I really get a bad vibe about him for some reason. I may have not contributed much until this point but I believe this post is a big contribution. Let's see what you have to contribute penguin?

FoS: insanepenguin02

Don and Mega have started going at each other very quickly, perhaps suspiciously so?

I agree with this. I could totally see this as a forced arguement. Each have made indications they would like it to end but it endures.

That's the straight agreement

I am not going to quote all their posts because this post is long enough.

FoS: don_johnson, Megatheory

So...I have three suspects at this point but I want to know insanepenguins' thoughts the most so...

Vote: insanepenguin02

Legit attack by Nameless on Juls which Juls responded to with sarcasm and general lack of denial of any of the accusation (I didn't find it a thorough analysis of the last three pages before it, at any rate), combined with hypocritical attack on Penguin. Not great. I realized, writing this, that I didn't put forth too much new info and decided to take a brief look at Juls' posts in isolation to see if I found anything new.

I don't think don_johnson is scummy for self voting and I dont thing megatheory is scummy for making a huge deal out of it.

Don and Mega have started going at each other very quickly, perhaps suspiciously so?

I agree with this. I could totally see this as a forced arguement. Each have made indications they would like it to end but it endures. I am not going to quote all their posts because this post is long enough.

FoS: don_johnson, Megatheory

So...I have three suspects at this point but I want to know insanepenguins' thoughts the most so...

Vote: insanepenguin02

Major stance change without much explanation other than 'oh, I can see Nameless' point here'.

HOS: Juls

Now this makes me want to do a Mega reread; don't have time now, but hopefully later tonight.

Plum in the same post your FOS on Megatheory turned into a Vote, what sparked this?

After all that analysis and having found multiple players looking at least moderately scummy, I didn't think a vote would be at all out of place, and would, in fact, be a good idea on my part. I FOSed Mega in the course of my stream-of-conciousness post and having concluded said post, found him the scummiest overall and thought my vote would be a good place. You'll notice that I didn't preview my post and edit it afterwards (note the lovely broken quote tags etc.); I suppose if I'd done that I might have removed to FOS and just voted Mega at the end. Just didn't happen that way, though.

[Plum]

i actually deliberately put in such an obvious line into my post 15, the "you think it will hurt us that much? " just for shits and giggles really. i thought it was such an over the top attempt to appear clueless newbie town it was funny, it wasn't meant to generate a page of discussion about it.

This is a very poor retroactive excuse for something that IMHO shouldn't need one.

FoS: Geraintm

After the whole deal and multiple misunderstandings about the whole situation, I don't really have a problem with this at all and certainly don't think it warrants a FOS.

still waiting on insanepenguin to answer why he wrote this:

I don't think that you are as scummy as somebody like don.

but did this:

All in all, I want to say: Vote: megatheory.

unvote, vote:insanepenguin02

i understand rl delays, but your initial answer did not suffice and i don't feel that this should just be swept under the rug. it is suggestive that ip knows my alignment. only scum know alignments of other players.

I see it being scummy, but I don't see too much indication that he knows your alignment - unless you're scumbuddies with him. Or he knows you're town but is deliberately voting his scumbuddy instead (in such fashion that he's becoming suspected, no less) because he knows you're town.

Scummy yes. Strong case of very scummy alignment-knowledge? Nope.

On Preview: O . . . kay. In my opinion, actually joining a bandwagon on a Townie comes with its own set of difficulties for scum. But I see where you're coming from there now and it makes general sense. You're really saying it's less about knowing your alignment and more about joining a more advantageous Townie bandwagon, yeah?

[Plum]

Partial disagreement with DonJ here. Votes are stronger pressure than otherwise expressed suspicion. Is there a huge difference between L-4 and L-3 at this stage? Not too much. To be frank, I don't see enough reason for Penguin not to go ahead and vote for you/ChaosOmega instead once Mega already had 2/3 (apparently his post was written while one vote was placed on Mega, if I recall) votes on him. There are scenarios where Penguin isn't scum, obviously, and just made a poor, scummy-looking desicion on where to put his vote in relation to the strengths of his suspicions, but it is, of course, more than worth noting at this point. Ramble ramble.

That said, I'm also keeping my vote on Mega until I see some reaction from him (barring unusual circumstances) despite, over the past day or two, suspicions of Juls and Penguin strengthening in my mind. They're still all about as likely to be scummy in my mind, especially this early-ish (yeah, fast deadlines) in the game.

I took my vote off of you because 1) it was started as a random vote with no meaning and 2) if you can tell in my analysis, I didn't weigh too heavily on the lurking aspect of people since we were only a few days into the game - I pointed out people that hadn't posted much but only told them to post more.

Removing your random vote, or at least its random element, was a good idea at that stage of the game. But with other players seeming to ping your scumdar so loudly . . .

1) First off, the self-vote which has been a good spark of discussion and has brought up the point about self-pointing (if it has one). It sure was ballsy to start off that way. I have to say that at first, I saw it as just something stupid and meaningless to get the game started for you, especially since you did unvote shortly after. But as time goes on, that feeling has changed....
2) THIS IS ALL THAT YOU HAVE TALKED ABOUT!!!! WHY?!?!?!
3) If I had to take a stance on you right now, I would say that you and mega agreed at the start of this game to throw a pointless conversation out there right off the bat so that you two scum buddies could really spin the heads of the townies. If this is true, it will be very interesting to see how it progresses. If this is false, you have mega to blame (and yourself a little) for really putting a bull's eye on you, in my eyes.
4) Please post something about another aspect of this game soon or I we will have no other info to work off of to get a fair picture of who you are. If you are town, I would get out of the arguement ASAP. Especially since the door was opened for you to finish but you didn't.

FOS: don_johnson

- post something more!

I'm not even entirely certain why you have DonJ listed as so scummy. First thing's a nulltell, second thing is theoretically a scumtell (though not fully explained as such), third thing's scumbuddy speculation (and I've learned the hard way, as Nameless can attest , that open scumbuddy speculations before anyone has died and flipped are almost entirely useless to the town and easily mainpuated by the scum), fourth thing is again null and just a call for more contributions.

On the other hand, I may not quite follow your ranking basis well, and you seem to note only slightly more scumminess in Chaos, also ranked 3.

On the other hand, I'm trying to reread your ranking post, noticed that you gave Juls a 7, read the points you made, realized that I wasn't fully comfortable with them (though this may have to do with my growing suspicions of Juls).

All right, I'm losing my focus here and have to go study.

No, wait! Procrastination, continue!

And if it apparently so clear to you that I am a certain role in the game, why would I make such a "peculiar" vote in your opinion? IMO that wouldn't be a very smart move for me to make. And see, I didn't vote for the one that I saw "most scummy" though am getting a pretty good reaction out of you. Why is that?

First bit is unabashed WIFOM. WIFOM masquerading as an actual

argument

against your being scum because your vote seems to indicative of scum. Second question you pose is hardly understandable, but as your vote

isn't

the one we'd intuitively guess you'd make after your scumminess ranking post, I do see why it might have gotten a reaction out of anyone. It's weird enough to note and question, at any rate. Still, the thing that irks me most about that post is the utterly shameless WIFOM defese. Ho boy. Screw the Mega vote for now, sorry about what I might have said earlier in this post, but I've had a scummier vibe on Penguin all evening and this WIFOM defense is a strong enough scumtell by me that I'll

Unvote; Vote: Insanepenguin02

[Plum]

Something I should have remembered to say a while ago, in response to Penguin, as I've seen it pointed out in other games and is really basic common sense: Pressure votes are completely useless once you let on that they're pressure votes. Once you know that they're about reactions rather than getting a potential lynch happening, you (just saying you as the one being pressure voted, hypothetically) don't have to worry at all about it. If you get unexpectedly voted to L-1 by other players, the pressure vote is going to peel right off and you know it; it's nothing to worry about. Now that it's known to be a pressure vote, do you plan on moving your vote? Why did you pressure vote so clumsily anyway; whatever your alignment it was rather lass than smart.

[Plum]

Wow - I have played in much more fun games than here! My bad for trying to get discussion going through asking questions, offering some analysis, and trying to get opinions out there. IT DEFINITELY GOT OPINIONS OUT THERE! So from now on it is a MAFIA

LAW

that I vote for who I think is the scummiest right off the bat and not offer any other explanations than that?!

Here you go:

Unvote

-

Vote: Chaos

with an

FOS: don and mega

Chaos has been the last one to jump my bandwagon and I saw him as being slightly scummy earlier, hence my vote for him

being the scummiest player in my opinion

at this point.

I have been known for playing the game a little different than what all of the "mafia pros" play it as I don't really care about what I

should

do. Look at my past games for evidence to that. But I would have to say that in this game in particular, you guys have completely over-reacted. How?

Appeal to emotion, appeal to meta (an illegitimate usage thereof, to clarify); generally bad.

Ah, Penguin's at L-1??? I've seen town Porkens do stuff like this, but I don't love it either.

FOS Porkens

perhaps?

Premature hammerer (before claim and/or without a nice thought-out reason for hammering now) will be automatically assumed to be scum in my eyes. Ah, nevermind, on preview Nameless has unvoted.

[Plum]

I've seen you act somewhat this way with early-ish Day 1 bandwagons, Porkens, but I want to adhere to my general rule of making people explain votes, especially important votes (e.g., an L-1 vote). For now I'm just going to nag you. Surely you have some opinions on some facets of the case on IP? Something that seems like a weaker tell than the others, or something which wasn't emphasized enough, etc.? I just think that overall more info from you on this vote, even if it's just a summary, has a fair chance of being useful for the town later.

Thanks

.

Nag nag nag nudge nu?

[Plum]

This game is moving along at a pretty good pace, I see. Me being all the way to L-1 all of a sudden is quite interesting, especially for the lack of any good reason by most of you. If you guys don't want me to offer my thoughts on the game, that is absolutely fine. I will not waste my time making long posts in order to offer some of my own thoughts on the game and specific players if this is how it is going to be contrived. I will gladly just float along as many others do, making posts when I need to.

And at this time, the only thing that I will claim is that I am town. Anything other than that, power role or vanilla, will be for a later time if I get back to L-1 with good reasoning (if you guys give me the time to respond before hammering, that is).

Lastly,

Unvote

. Porkens, saying that you honestly don't care who we lynch is EXTREMELY scummy. It at least is not pro-town.

Vote: Porkens

Er, refusing to offer moer analysis isn't the right reaction. I didn't vote for you because I didn't want your analysis; far from it. I voted for you because of the moderatly suspect vote on Mega, who wasn't ranked as your first or second scummiest player, as it were. What I founf more scummy was your shameless WIFOM defense and ensuing appeals to emotion, realy weird apparent necessity to claim town and wait for power claim or lack thereof till later (it's not the fact that you didn't want to claim your power then. I can deal with that, especially as I see you've now claimed Tracker. Unvote should be coming at the end of this post, more info on that below. It's more the fact that, well, duh. Of course you're claiming town-aligned. No one in this game is going to claim anything else. The uselessness of the claim coupled with the need to tell us all that makes the nulltell lean slightly towards scumtell).

And the desperate-townie play, the townie-who-doesn't-care-anymore play . . . doesn't help.

@ Nameless - Thank you for recognizing that this wagon is getting REALLY f-ing retarded!! 100% guaranteed that every scum is on the wagon as of right now and if not lynched today, I will be able to track one of them and hopefully catch one in the act. Or if you decide to lynch me now, good luck! The way this game has gone, I would expect scum to win very quickly.

You'd be surprised, but scum can often be quite clever and chosy in what bandwagons they join, and townies can legitimately vote any scummy-looking player. This 100% guarantee - I don't like it, as it's too likely to be untrue for such surety. Seriously.

And apparently we have all forgotten about a possible scum connection between don and mega? I would like to hear more on this as I still have a feeling that there is a connection there.

Awful attempt to redirect attention back towards an old, minor issue that's generally not beneficial for the town anyway (scum pairings D1).

When I got to the computer and read your post, I found you said something and Nameless expressed my exact sentiments. Here they are.

On ChaosOmega - I assume this is how it looks, if I'm recalling things correctly. CO made a vote on Mega without a joke explanation; not a fully random vote, but a vote against the player who at that point had done the most scummy things, and, being early in the game, there weren't many strong scumtells out of anybody. It's not traditional, voting without the not-really-a-joke explanation. Neither is a selfvote. Personally, I can . . . well, if it was a semi-serious vote, CO, why didn't you post the explanation then/ Reread of this is actually refreshing me on these issues, okay. Still weird that CO didn't make a completely random vote but didn't give a small explanation of her vote anyway . . .

noted

. My question here is why CO made a not-fully-random vote but didn't explain his reasoning nor that it fell into the category of semi-random. As it seems that at least part of the reasoning was that Mega had done some questionable things, why didn't you do so? Answer, please.

IP's claim: Not sure he's town, of course, but I have more than once learned the lesson that lynching a claimed powerrole (uncounterclaimed) is generally a risk that's less advantageous to take. My eye's still on him, and it's possible he'll prove to be our best lynch come deadline, of course. For now, though,

Unvote: Insanepenguin, Vote Juls

.
I've noted Juls doing some questionable things in previous posts and she's now about my second scummiest. Probably would like to get to a reread of her and perhaps Mega later. For now, I think that's a fine place to put my vote.

[Plum]

CB: Do you think that it matters if we lynch a

powerrole

Day 1? Your sudden agreement with Porkens (and I'm only somewhat okay with his position here because I've played with his town meta) and your sudden desicion to vote IP coincides beautifully with IP's Tracker claim. Consider that

noted

.

[Plum]

Crud, I let my computer eat my hard-earned post. Let's try to rebuild and reconstruct here . . .

the only way for you to

know

that the wagon was scum driven 100% is if you are scum. ip's post was terrible. scum may have been on the wagon. scum was probably on the wagon. but

definitely

? only scum could know for sure. this is not the first time you have chosen your words poorly. i suggest you start proofreading your posts if you are town.

So you think a typical town would run up penguin to L-1 in that situation without any scum voting for him?

In my mind, scum driven =/= scum are on the bandwagon. They may often coincide, but my defenitions are two seperate concepts: Scum driven means that scum are among those most pressuring the one being bandwagoned, often are early voters on the bandwagon, and are the ones encouraging and pushing the rest of the players to lynch the bandwagonee. A bandwagon with scum on it can be anywhere from scum-driven to a bandwagon with one lone lurker scum's vote on it from half a week ago when he last posted. So according to the defenitions I use, is it likely that scum are on then IP wagon/were on it at its hight? Yes, quite likely, though not certain. Were the people who were

driving

the IP wagon scum? It's a useful question, one I plan to persue as soon as I finish rewriting the dratted post.

I will say that I agree with you, Mega, that the 'primary reason' behind suspicions against IP (the 'he voted the player he ranked third scummiest) isn't a major scumtell; I found that his reactions (especially that shameless WIFOM defense he used, which was, for me, the last straw that made me want to vote him), however, to be fairly strong scumtells, especially for this point in the game.

do you get my logic behind him digging a hole? sure its a little heterodox but what i was saying is that because he was posting this huge post which would require many follow up posts would of been a bad decision if he was scum.

if it was a bad decision for him to make as scum, then why would you think he was scum? its wifomic, but you're making more of a case for him to be poor playing town, than scum. that is, of course, if i am reading this right.

DonJ, no need to bring in any WIFOM. In retrospect (hindsight's always 20/20 ) it was a stupid thing for hypothetical scum-IP to do, because it led to him reacting in scummy ways to the responses he got. The fact that he did something which now appears to be disadvantageous for scum is itself a nulltell. His reactions remain, at least in my mind, scumtells.

do you get my logic behind him digging a hole? sure its a little heterodox but what i was saying is that because he was posting this huge post which would require many follow up posts would of been a bad decision if he was scum.

if it was a bad decision for him to make as scum, then why would you think he was scum? its wifomic, but you're making more of a case for him to be poor playing town, than scum. that is, of course, if i am reading this right.

i thought he could of been scum making himself appear townie

Wait, what? See above analysis. No need for WIFOM like this from either DonJ or CB. It's heck to wade through it, meaningless, and the discussion is easily explained without it, as above.

What I meant about Penguin digging himself a hole is how he decided to ask 3-5 questions to everyone, and he's going to have to post more and more because now he has discussion with everyone. And the more he posts, the more WIFOM and ironic he gets.

The consistent posting he now had to do would cost him for he would continue to contradict himself and sound more WIFOM-ic. kind of like whats happening to me.

Yes, rather like that.

[Plum]

Unvote: Insanepenguin, Vote Juls

.
I've noted Juls doing some questionable things in previous posts and she's now about my second scummiest. Probably would like to get to a reread of her and perhaps Mega later. For now, I think that's a fine place to put my vote.

people already don't like people voting their thrid scummiest. now you are voting only your second...

Your scummiest has claimed powerrole with nothing to indicate that the role does not exist or that he is not what he claimed. Do you still intend to lynch?

Answer to Geraintm: I'm voting my secoond scumiest because IP has claimed a powerrole and hasn't been counterclaimed. Do I still intend to lynch him? To be honest, I'mnot sure. In my admittedly limited experience lynching uncounterclaimed powerroles Day 1 usually isn't a good idea (and Nameless makes a good point that Tracker claim, whether IP's lying or not, gives a fair amount of leeway for scum lies). I probably would rather not lynch IP today, but if he starts acting extraordinarily scummy during the rest of the Day I won't ignore that and will vote again for his lynch.

[Sarcasm]Oh, Pengion is admitting he made mistakes! Well, that's okay then. No, no, don't bother trying to explain them or providing any analysis you were asked for. We'll just believe you because you claimed and you are sorry.[/Sarcasm]

Agreed. I remember (man this is becoming a refrain) an SK apologizing for poor play and acknowledging his mistakes, and doing so did improve his image with others (although the many scummy-looking townies didn't help either). Despite the agreement, the multiple times I've been part of a town which lynched an uncountered powerrole Day 1 and lost out for it haunts me, as above.

[Plum]

DonJ has convinced me that Nameless deserved a little look-through.

Afterthought: You know, I'm seriously not sure which I found more dubious: insanepenguin02, or his wagon. Even if IP is scum I wouldn't be surprised to find scum bussing right now.

Yeah, IP's not even trying to be helpful now. Given that he did put the effort into his series of questions and answers earlier I'm not inclined to believe he's an angsty townie. He dies comes deadline if nothing else major comes up.

Yes, IP is right. He can't prove himself in one night. Therefore, we must leave him alive until the endgame. *Nod, nod* Also, did he seriously just blame his lack of analysis on the weather?

Screw it. I'm saying this much in case I die N1, but don't expect me to elaborate further unless one of them flips scum: Possible insanepenguin02 - canadianbovine - don_johnson scumteam. That is all.

So, let me get this straight - you think that at this point IP has acted scummy enough that it would be worth lynching an uncounterred Tracker Day 1? Fine, but I want to see a good mega case on him before I consider that legit. Until his play starts grabbing me by the shoulders, shaking me violently, and screaming in my face 'I'M SCUM!' it's going to take one hack of a lot of convincing. And judging by your overall convictions of IP, I don't think it'll be enough and further think that pushing for his lynch Day 1 is anti-town and quite possibly scummy.

Also, I don't see why you're being sarcastic about him blaming not being quite as active on the weather. Besides that, as I'll generously assume you just felt like heavy sarcasm for not related reason, as Don said, not wanting to Lynch him Day 1 + him not necessarily being able to prove himself due to Night Actions by Day 2 =/= We'll let him live till endgame. No sirree Bob. Were you intentionally trying to strawman on that, or was it a coincidence ? If I recall, the original statements went something like

there are so many variables, but letting him live a night or two could be very helpful. if we have a doc, and we lynch scum, then doc doesn't have to protect him. let the mafia confirm him or leave him be. whoever he investigates can confirm him. i don't think theres anyway to completely confirm him without his eventulal death, though. at least none that i can see. if we think he's lying we lynch him day 2. the most important thing to do to spin this to our advantage is to lynch scum today. so everyone not worried about who we lynch should start paying attention.

That did not say let's let him live till endgame because we can't confirm him. That said there might be ways to semi-confirm him, and there may be other advantages to not lynching him today, and we should seriously try to lynch scum Day 1. Nice strawman, there.

Scum pairings Day 1 are usually not beneficial for the town

Agree with DonJ here and holy flipping turnaround Batman! on that scumpairing call after you dismissed them as usually not pro-town. If you wanted to actually help the town with your speculations (and it's dubious how much they would be able to help anyway) you would wait until Twilight, when, if one of those three had been lynched and flipped scum, you might mention them as suspects, or, if you wanted to make sure you got them in before the thread was locked, you might have waited until it looked like we were in a serious L-1 situation with one of them to mention connections.

This is all caps

NOTED

.

[Plum]

Unvote

As much of my previous supicion of Juls was based on her lack of contribution, hypocrisy, etc., I don't believe that vote is fully appropriate at this time.

General note: I am concerned you might be letting Nameless and Porkens off the hook a little because you have played with them in the past. For instance, I feel you have voted me for much less than what has been noted (and agreed with by you) on Nameless and Porkens. Take it for what you will.

I see your point, and I probably should take that into consideration and avoid it as much as possible. My problem is probably greater with Porkens (I've played with him when we were both town and he seemed scummy to many townies) than with Nameless (who looked very townie as scum when I played with him . . .). Nevertheless, point made and stands.

You make a decent point about DCF not scumhunting much. We actually need a bit more face-showing out of him, Geraintm, Atronach and ChaosOmega and CB and . . . that's it, I suppose, except for asking Porkens for more actual substance. Grrr, multiple lurky players.

Penguin and what we should do with him:

1. He scumhunts or he dies, I think. Penguin, if you don't want to be lynched and you want to help the town, the best thing you can do on both counts is help find scum to lynch today. If you want to help the town I am

expecting

good scumhunting of your own. Not only mindless-looking parroting (see below); real scumhunting is what I'm calling for right now.

2. Otherwise, Mega's plan sounds about as fair and decent as we're going to get. It give us room to potentially get some useful info on the scum before lynching a potential powerrole but makes sure we don't have IP alive longer than would be useful, and certainly not have him around in LYLO, which would be extremel detrimental.

3. Unless we suddenly get loaded with a bunch more hugely scummy suspects, but let's burn that bridge when we get to it.

Nice PBPA by juls. (I

suspect

(well, suspected at the time) that IP was town.)

Between the Don/Nameless/Ger conversation, the last few interactions, I believe, have gone into namelesses corner.

Er - I can't tell exactly what you mean by this. Explain please?

don - You have an intriguing case building. Looking back over nameless's posts, I can see where that "vibe" you are getting is coming from.

*Take the handout from don_johnson , folds it up, and puts it in the right, back pants pocket*

are you kidding? please show us where you "can see where that "vibe" you are getting is coming from.". piggybacking on my case makes you look even worse. you do realize that, don't you?

That. That right there. If you want to agree with someone, fine, but this goes beyond lack of contribution and looks plain scummy. Tell us what you find scummy about Nameless. This post just epitomizesthe lack of scumhunting from you since . . . since before your claim, if I recall.

Back to Nameless: What I said on your scumteam call, let me dig it up:

Agree with DonJ here and holy flipping turnaround Batman! on that scumpairing call after you dismissed them as usually not pro-town. If you wanted to actually help the town with your speculations (and it's dubious how much they would be able to help anyway) you would wait until Twilight, when, if one of those three had been lynched and flipped scum, you might mention them as suspects, or, if you wanted to make sure you got them in before the thread was locked, you might have waited until it looked like we were in a serious L-1 situation with one of them to mention connections.

Your response to my assertation that this was not the time or way to bring up scumteam speculation:

To clarify slightly, there are several things from each of the three players I listed that makes me somewhat suspect they are connected. I'm not seriously accusing them or suggesting they be lynched (well, IP independently aside), merely noting the possibility might warrant looking into by others later. Independently, there are others I consider scummier. I say these now, because I noticed another that I considered plausible enough to warrant brief mention for somebody else to look into later if I'm NKed (as anyone could be, I don't expect to be or not to be for any particular reason), but obviously not serious enough to warrant the distraction from other discussion D1. Quick note for the future and moving on not equal encouraging others to start seriously discussing this now (such as IP #153).

You did not address my point that waiting until Twilight or at least until L-1 of a serious bandwagon might have been the right time to do this if you were doing it mostly out of fear that you might be NK'd Night 1. You've scumteam-speculated Day 1 as scum before (I checked!) and you knew well how distracting and detrimental it could be to the town. I know I did. If you really wanted to help the town with your speculations you would have waited till Twilight or L-1 at least and wouldn't have risked distracting the town.

Also, wait wait:

I'll be suggesting one or two alternative lynches for D1 when I have more free time tomorrow. (Sneak Preview! If all else fails we policy lynch Porkens for lurking.)

Why Porkens as opposed to other lurkers who have done other somewhat scummy things? DCF also falls into that category, as Geraintm and CB or CO might. There are plenty of policy lynches for lurking out there. Why do you mention Porkens specifically?

Screw it. Can't remember if this has been brought up yet etc. If it has, I'm sorry for being redundant. Thought, as per the rest of this post, that if I wasn't going to do an extensive reread of Porkens now at least it would be beneficial to skim his posts in isolation.

vote: insanguin

I think it's time for a claim, pengy.

I don't want to/will not regurgitate what you all have already said. I've decided that yes, penguin should claim or die, based on the cases

you people

have presented.

I've got no real reason to believe penguin is scum. In fact, the scummiest things he has done, in my opinion, has been since his wagon fell apart. But, even these are moot.

I understand that the last post I quoted came after the claim. Still, you said that you agreed with the case on IP and wouldn't regurgutate it and later state that there's no reason to believe IP's scum? I don't think it's too unlikely that the claim's true etc., but I certainly believe there's real reason to believe he well may be scum. What do you mean here? This looks incriminatingly contradictory.

Am currently unsure whether I more want my vote on Nameless or Porkens (well, there you seem to have it, Juls ); IP on actions is still scummiest, but still don't want to lynch him today, see above. Gut says vote Nameless. Probably in my next post, unless he addresses fully above suspicion of him (regarding why he scumteam spculated when there was no immediate danger of him getting NK'd before he could tell us his suspicions (we weren't at a serious L-1 or anything) and when there was every chance it could distract the town . . .

The Stuck in a thumb, and pulled out a Plum! Votecount:

Mod, I feel so famous . What timezone is PST again? I want to make sure I actually know when deadline is going to hit.

[Plum]

I have been dreading this wall of a post I'm going to have to make, as I fully expect it to take a long time. Charge of the Light Brigade

on

, then.

Can't help but notice that right after Plum is accused of going easy on two players, she claims to be tossing up between voting those two players. But doesn't vote either of them. Right.

Right. I think I made it fairly clear why I found you suspicious; same for Porkens. Combine the fact that you were both acting scummy with an inconsistent gut on both of you . . . and I might have voted you, Nameless, except that counterproductively DonJ's flyer campaign made me less keen on the wagon on you.

My apologies to Atronach. My memory seemed to be telling me that I hadn't seen too much substance out of you too recently, and it does seem that you had mostly for the previous two or so you'd focused mostly on your thoughts on what to do with/about IP and focused less on straight scumhunting. You were not, however, actually lurking.

On DCF: On reread he would, it seems, make a good case for a lynch of someone for not contributing to the scumhunt. He's apparently been V/LA since Friday, showed his face on the site briefly this morning. I'm hoping he shows his face and we can lynch someone on more than not contributing to the scumhunt (which doesn't necessarily preclude a DCF lynch), but if not, he's a decent alternative. There are others who need to show their faces, too. CO, Geraintm, though the latter should be showing up after the weekend, I suppose. And IP of course. If he continues to be active on the site and not in this game as we're all calling for substantial contribution from him . . .

Heya, Geraintm, let me dig up a quote:

i generally tend to be slo in placing votes and slow in changing them
i felt at the time penguin was the best person to vote for
i have not found anyone yet who i think is vote-worthy. i am sure there will be something over the weekend to make me change my mind

Well??? And did this mean that your preferred lynch at the time was IP (potential Tracker IP, that is)? Expound, if you please.

Moving on.

CB, thanks for the timezone info.

On the Juls/DonJ 'Directing the Doc?' argument, when viewing DonJ's posts in isolation I find:

as i said before, doc protection for ip should maybe depend on whether who we lynch today flips scum or town. ip so far has proven nothing to us. though it doesn't make sense to lynch him, protecting should not be a definite. also, by not letting scum know for sur what we are doing it gives us a better chance of avoiding an nk.

This was in response to Atronach suggesting that IP get Doc protection assuming there actually is any. Mega then responds 'let's not direct the Doc' and DonJ asks why not, instigating the whole debate. So I'm not entirely sure why the heck he seems to have been arguing for half a page that partially directing/suggesting courses of action to hypothetical Doc. I personally believe that a brief suggestion if something important comes to you is plenty, and otherwise hypothetical Doc should be left to do whatever he/she feels is the most advantageous thing to do.

Except now DonJ seems to be advocating specifically that in the case we lynch scum today the Doc not protect IP. Where's this coming from? Have I missed something?

WTH?

Yet again DonJ doesn't seem to hear his cue to shut up about suggesting things to the Doc or not. As Porkens pointed out, at this point in time it's wasting valuble brain space I could be devoting to something else, like memorizing epic poetry or taking up competitive Scrabble.

Ugh, the Nameless/DonJ debates continue as well. I still don't like Nameless' connection-drawing or anything, and am not fully satisfied with his explanations for not waiting until the town was really on the verge of a lynch. At the same time, it's about time the subject was freaking

dropped

by DonJ. Calls for elaboration will only hurt the town at this point. If the connections are so unsubtle as Nameless has painted them, I'm certain that the town will be able to find and use them if the occasion arises.

without explaining yourself you leave the players in question with no possible way of defending themselves from what may eventually turn into an angry mob.

Um, not a legitimate worry unless you think we all have the IQs of eggplants. No one is going to literally get lynched by mob psychology alone. If there are connections, we've been prematurely hinted to their existance and will find them and have them argued against as the occasion arises. Until then, subject should be dropped and I find DonJ somewhat suspicious for not having done so already.

IGMEOY (ie, Noted

).

Nameless, you switched your vote from Porkens to DCF citing only recent quantities of posting. Has the quality of Porkens' play gone up as well? Did you not not DCF's V/LA announcement?

(As for the speculation, you see, I have this optimistic outlook on people that I honestly don't believe any player would be stupid enough to make a vote without actually reading any new posts first.)

is wifom. being optimistic isn't a bonafide mafia strategy.

What WIFOM? I'm getting sick of you slapping that term around without regard (you use it so often and too often it's misplaced or simply not really the point you're trying to get acroos. Seriosly, next time you want to say 'WIFOMic', explain what you find townie/scummy/circular about the subject in question, just as an experiment).

Optimism isn't a strategy anyway; it's an outlook. Basically here it's a (generous) assumption on the part of Nameless that none of us are absolutely brain-dead here.

That's about all I have for tonight, I think. Lurkers, try, make an effort, and post something including substantial scumhunting. IP, I'm LOOKING AT YOU HERE.

Now I have Nameless, Porkens, and DonJ in one scummy mashup in the race for my vote, with DCF not far behind. Hopefully a case and vote will come tomorrow or Tuesday, when I can do more overarching analysis and/or some more stuff has been posted.

[Plum]

First thing I need to say:

Since it has come up a few times, I want to put this out there and get some discussion on it:

Ultimately, we don't know anything until there is at least one night phase, and making any conclusions before then is unwise.

Yes, yes. Therefore it's useless, distracting, and anti-town to bring it up for extended discussion. Doubtless DonJ will get into a few long, boring, almost pointless arguments and then . . . what? We won't know enough for certain to have gained everything, and we won't benefit from making WIFOM-prone conclusions as to this sort of stuff Day 1 anyway. So why did you want to bring this up?

Consider this a prelude to a longer post from me this evening, in which I will discuss, I should think, the current state of our town, why I am chagrined (Atronach seemed to have made a decent case on Geraintm two minutes before my post last night), and the fact that I have come to the conclusion that neither Nameless nor Porkens would be an ideal lynch. Should come within an hour or two; twill take a bit of time to write up. See you then.

[Plum]

First thing I need to say:

Since it has come up a few times, I want to put this out there and get some discussion on it:

Ultimately, we don't know anything until there is at least one night phase, and making any conclusions before then is unwise.

Yes, yes. Therefore it's useless, distracting, and anti-town to bring it up for extended discussion. Doubtless DonJ will get into a few long, boring, almost pointless arguments and then . . . what? We won't know enough for certain to have gained everything, and we won't benefit from making WIFOM-prone conclusions as to this sort of stuff Day 1 anyway. So why did you want to bring this up?

Somebody implied that the two kills are evidence of a serial killer. I'm pretty sure don brought it up while putting together his case on Nameless, or supporting his case, or something like that. I haven't got to that part in my reread yet. I wanted to bring it up because I think it could help me understand his case better.

Don't jump all over me about it. Don (I think) brought it up. Jump all over him.

I hear your point here, I think. In any case, I'd rather leave off discussion of setup and such and focus instead on the scumhunt proper. My main post for the night coming in a few short minutes, barring unforseen emergencies.

[Plum]

Back again.

Immediately after I posted my long post last night I realized that I simulposted with Atronch's case on Geraintm, which happens to be rediculously good. To recap how I see it:

I'm not sure what to make of the fact that Geraintm claims he made the old 'you think [my weekend V/LAs] will hurt [the town] that much' for 'shits and giggles' in what he seemed to think would be a hilariously over-the-top 'newbie town' parody. Seems kind of weird and might be a bit much explanation regarding something unsubstantial, but RVS joking is what he seems to be saying it was, and that, too, seems plausible enough, so that's a nulltell in my own mind.

The rest of the case, however, pinpoints some pretty clear scumtells. Lack of substance in the posts overall, for one. For another, jumping onto Porkens' 'I don't really care too much about who gets lynched Day 1' statement in what I read as a scum jumping to agree with [someone else, alignment irrelevent] for his benefit - he didn't indicate that he felt this way until Porkens came out with his style of Day 1 play. Seems to set up a situation where he can advocate a random lynch. Not good. Random lynches mean no info out of Day 1 at all, which is bad. Even Porkens doesn't seem to want to completely waste Day 1.

Geraintm's initial IP vote

seemed

to come after his 'I'm town-aligned and we'll see about a full claim later' post, with such as a main reason, which I actually don't mind too much. It looked evasive, useless, and kinda weird. After that, I might have pused hard for a full claim as well (I happened to get to the thread only after both the 'town' claim and the 'Tracker' claim had been posted, if I recall).

Keeping his vote on after the claim was another thing altogether. As Atronach said, the reason for voting was to pressure him to claim, he claimed a Townie powerrole, and Geraintm kept his vote on IP. On the one hand, that's a vote for a reason that's now obselete, and secondly it was both a useless and scummy place to put the vote. Useless because IP wasn't going to get lynched at that point, no way no how, so there was no potential info out of it. Scummy because it implied that his preferred lynch at that point was IP despite the Tracker claim.

At one point Mega wrote that Geraintm looked like 'unhelpful, low contributing scum.' After reading Atronach's case and Geraintm's weak response to it, which incidentially did not address someof the things I consider scummiest very well, I feel fairly confident that Geraintm's a good lynch.

Unvote; Vote: Geraintm

I continue to be irritated by DonJ - especially his accusation that Juls used scummy 'veiled threats'. It was about time you stopped talking about what you thought the Doctor might/should/should not do, as it was anti-town and distracting etc.

Yes, I do get annoyed that you dismiss or accuse many things as being 'WIFOMic' when they aren't really WIFOM-related.

Stop taking things personally, if you could. Some players are blunt, sharp-tongued, or occasionally temperamental. Unless it gets profane or abusive, I'd advise you to deal as best you can.

And yes, I find you rightfully suspicious. Juls made a fairly good synopsis; in bold are my thoughts on her brief points:

My suspicions of you are based on:
1) talking about lylo on day 1 and I feel preparing an escape clause for yourself if MT turns out to be town.

Er - slightly scummy, but on its own doesn't worry me too much.

2) being distracting. This is the third "fight" that you have started and have difficulty ending. you and MT had the theory discussion, you had your button/flyer campaign for nameless with few real bites, and now with me, you wouldn't end the doctor discussion despite at least 4 people suggesting it is a bad idea.

Yes, yes, this exactly.

3) you were leading the doctor despite being asked to stop.

This as well

4) you targetting me in an OMGUS kind of way and the other person who finds you suspicious just happens to be on your lynch list. And the third person on your list is IP which at least 3/4 of us find suspicious.

This mostly; my feelings are strongest about stuff mentioned at the beginning of this proof and steadily go down a bit throughout.

Another thing that I find suspicious, is that despite nearing deadline and still listing me as his #1 lynch candidate, Don unvotes me. He says "it is obvious noone sees what i am seeing." even when several posts have indicated similar suspicion of me (I've even made Plum's scummy mashup!). He apparently admits tunnel vission, but continues making misleading statements about myself. Basically, without any obvious trigger or change of position, Don has unvoted as we near deadline.

Yes. Appears to admit to tunnelvision and unvotes, but to what end and with what other suspicions? None until illegitimate case on Juls which appears to have elements of OMGUS and nuances of other scumtells; a well-balanced bottle of scum wine. Delicious with fish or chicken dishes, and especially delicate with light fruit desserts. Serve chilled.

So, my top three scummiest are: Geraintm, DonJ and . . . hm . . .DCF, I suppose.

I have come to the conclusion that Porkens' recent posting is of slightly better quality, though his play is unconventional and looks . . . potentially scummy, and that Nameless' scumminess hinges most on noting suspicions of a scumteam at an anti-town time and a bit of wavering about bandwagons. Unless things have slipped my mind. Doubtless there are more specific details which I've discussed, but current gut on them has now shifted to null-at-worst and in light of stronger new or developing cases (see above), they are not among he people I would most rather see lynched today.

IP STOP ACTIVE LURKING YOU SCUMMY FOOL!!! POST, WITH SUBSTANCE, FOR HEAVENS' SAKES! I'M SICK OF THIS!

Sorry for the Caps Lock, all .

[Plum]

but i digress. apparently noone wants me to talk.

Stop the whiny-townie attitude here, if you please. I'd like you to talk scum-hunting sense. Not speculate about an SK. That speculation is worthless, distracting, and anti-town Day 1.

this entire game is wifom. but thats just my opinion.

You can take this approach to WIFOM if you feel like, it. It's legit enough, I guess. Just realize that if the whole game is WIFOM, WIFOM becomes an inherently useless accusation. I generally reserve WIFOM accusations for the times someone chooses to use a WIFOM-laden statement as an actual defense ala IP.

[Plum]

but i digress. apparently noone wants me to talk.

Stop the whiny-townie attitude here, if you please. I'd like you to talk scum-hunting sense. Not speculate about an SK. That speculation is worthless, distracting, and anti-town Day 1.

Anyone else notice that Plum is trying

really hard

to shut down discussion about a serial killer?

Why now, Plum? It was brought up before!

Must have lost it in DonJ's long posts, I suppose, not really cared to add on another lump to my long posts entitled 'that setup discussion that lasted a page? It was a waste for reasons X, Y, and Z'. You really want to discuss the possibility of there being an SK? Tell me why you think it would be town-beneficial to do it right now.

[Plum]

Why would we have two trackers?

It's possible, I suppose, though the likelyhood . . . meh.

Unvote

for now. DonJ is, of course, my second choice, so my vote's going there for now.

Vote: don_johnson

chaos
don
mega
plum
they seem the worst to me. lynching them different matter, if i thought they needed lynching i woul dbe voting for one of them already

You responded with this when asked to name your top suspects. You're not voting anyone. Can you explain this here?

[Plum]

[filler post ala Nameless]

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to dance the dance of the sugar plum fairies.

But what about me and my avatar - we're doing it already

[/filler post]

[Plum]

You and don have had much more than a simple argument. don thinks you are scum, and went so far as to campaign for your lynch. Either he is scum and dropped a case that he saw wasn't working, or he is town and caught a scum, but became discouraged too soon. Unless you can suggest an alternative scenario

with evidence

, then the best play is to lynch one of you.

You have no stronger evidence of the two scenarios above than I have of suggesting that DonJ is town and thought he caught scum, and became discouraged while Nameless was town. There's nothing precluding Don from having made a case and petitioned for the lynch of a townie as town. None at all. The best play is not

necessarily

to lynch one of them today, as there's no good guarantee that one or the other has to be scum.

Weird that you asked

with evidence

. Sounds suspiciously related to the 'Burden of Proof' logical fallacy.

[Plum]

You have no stronger evidence of the two scenarios above than I have of suggesting that DonJ is town and thought he caught scum, and became discouraged while Nameless was town. There's nothing precluding Don from having made a case and petitioned for the lynch of a townie as town. None at all. The best play is not

necessarily

to lynch one of them today, as there's no good guarantee that one or the other has to be scum.

don was campaigning in a way that indicates that he is convinced that Nameless is scum. Some of his accusations cover genuine scum tells. I have found things in my reread that indicate that Nameless is scum. You say you have evidence that the two of them are townies, but you haven't presented any.

Further, you obviously don't think don is a townie

because you are voting for him

.

Total strawman. I do not say I have evidence that the two of them are townies. I'm saying that there's no "proof" that one of the two of them has to be scum. I've campaigned for a lynch as town for someone I genuinely believed to be scum. I found things in rereads and made a strong case against said player. We were both town. I don't think DonJ is too likely to be a townie, but am far from convinced that I'm infallible. It's my best effort at this point, my vote on DonJ, and I think it's good. But you have not made a convincing case that it must be the case that one of Nameless and DonJ

must

be scum. It's plausible, but by no means the only plausible explanation for these events.

Weird that you asked

with evidence

. Sounds suspiciously related to the 'Burden of Proof' logical fallacy.

Nameless heaped suspicion on me without actually arguing against anything I said. He is trying to prevent his own lynch and prevent don from being lynched because it may expose him.

I'll analyze that in a later post, as that may take a long while to address properly. The fact that you find Nameless suspicious is not related to the logical fallacy you're using. You made a sweeping statement: 'One of [Nameless and DonJ] is scum'. Am I correct? And you continued to say that 'therefore we should lynch from one of the two of them. If you want to argue you must

prove

them both town. The lack of proof that they are both definitely town doesn't make it certain that one of them must be scum in any way, shape, or form.

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... n_of_Proof

Read it and weep. Stop strawmanning me and such.

On preview: You're still strawmanning this whole situation. You mean to say that he must present evidence that both he and DonJ are town or be lynched for trying to save his own skin? You're still using a logical fallacy and still not making any sense.

[Plum]

Sorry, all, I had a long post detailing my suspicions of DonJ but unfortnately I was kicked off the computer last night before I could finish and post it and the computer was shut dow. From the top, now:

My suspicions of DonJ, a synopsis:

1. Suspecting Nameless because of his scumbuddy speculation (fine) but asking him to elaborate, saying that 'without explaining yourself you leave the players in question with no possible way of defending themselves from what may eventually turn into an angry mob'. You continue to press this point and ask for elaboration (that's anti-town) long, long after the point had been well-done; you seemed to need to burn it to charcoal.

2. Directing the Doc, the Juls arguments and the aftermath:

plum: if we don't lynch scum today, you don't want to have ip protected so we may benefit from their results? you just want the doctor to decide? even if the doctor is geraintm who(as determining by their "random lynching" comment) may simply apply their power randomly so as to have no effect on town strategy? yes, i am speculating, but you, like juls and nameless, have not explained how this hurts town.

You keep saying 'no, I'm not dircting the hypothetical Doc; heaven forbid!' At the same time you say 'The Doc should strongly take into account my strategy here'. You also, now that I look at it, say something pretty rediculous about Geraintm. Huh? You continue to accuse Juls of making scummy 'veiled threats' after you continue to try to suggest a course of action for the Doc (which, yes,

is

anti-town, and by this point, after that fact has been made clear, your continued persistance in trying to do so

is

scummy). You say that

'"veiled threats" refers to the obsession players have with using their vote in a threatening manner. "you better knock it off or i'll vote you." it seems more of a scum tactic.

Or a tactic to shut up a player doing something detrimental to the town, or making it clear that by continuing on the path of doing something detrimental to the town a vote will have been earned due to scumminess?

To recap a post of Juls' with only what I find legitimately scummy:

2) being distracting. This is the third "fight" that you have started and have difficulty ending. you and MT had the theory discussion, you had your button/flyer campaign for nameless with few real bites, and now with me, you wouldn't end the doctor discussion despite at least 4 people suggesting it is a bad idea.

Yes, yes, this exactly.

3) you were leading the doctor despite being asked to stop.

That there

4) you targetting me in an OMGUS kind of way

Yes, your suspicions of Juls did reek of OMGUS

Other things of note: You

do

seem to use the 'loner vibe' you have on Nameless as a full-fledged part of your case .

This took a while, but DonJ did seem to very much want a response. I gave it to you. Later I might do some analysis of the Nameless/Mega arguments; but after the obscenely obvious logical fallacies, etc. from last night, my feelings on Mega are currently none too good.

IP IS STILL ACTING REDICULOUS; JOY.

[Plum]

nowhere in post 360 does megatheory say :

Mega then states either Don or I must be scum.

NOWHERE.

Either he is scum and dropped a case that he saw wasn't working, or he is town and caught a scum, but became discouraged too soon.

Unless you can suggest an alternative scenario with evidence, then

the best play is to lynch one of you

.

He made it quite clear that he did not believe an 'alternative scenario' to one of you being town is possible. Is that a mismanaged Chainsaw Defense or do I have my terms wrong here?

[Plum]

not to argue, but nameless promised to self hammer. if he doesn't then he is scum.

Absolutes ... It's not like a townie couldn't get cold feet. You could have just said Lynch All Liars anyway.

I agree that LAL has practical application here and that I do not think this would potentially be a bad place to apply it. But I disagree with calling DonJ out for not making his train of argument pull through the LAL station on its way. Express made the point well enough.

so in a way it makes sense to place nameless at L-1 and request the self hammer.

Do you believe we're so close to deadline that we need to ask for a selfhammer to prevent a no-lynch quite yet? I disagree that putting him in such a position where he must selfhammer prematurely or face the wrath of a bunch of angry players at this point. The time doth approach, however.

[Plum]

EBWOP: I believ I mean this whole long thing to be posted before what I just posted in the same post. Sorry all.

Don is projecting a level of certainty that is so high, he is probably right.

Somehow I don't buy this as so necessarily true, as you seem to.

Now, you suggested that they are both townies. What is your reason for believing that outside of it just being a basic possibility? Can you point to anything in the thread that leads you to believe they are both townies?

At the time I had reason to believe that you made an absolute statement (that one of Nameless and DonJ must be scum) and asked for proof if anyone wanted to argue otherwise. The statement, at least a I read it them, was inherintly flawed and related to a well-documented logical fallacy. Hence my suggestion that it was (and still is) quite plausible that they're both townies. Yes, I find DonJ scummy. Yes, I object to a sweeping statement that either he or Nameless is scum and such

must

be the case. I come out strongly against pushing the town with logical fallacies and nonsense.

Oh, I get it. First you accuse me of being an SK because I don't think that that setup speculation is a good use of the town's resources today. Now you accuse me of being Nameless' partner because of this.

If I tilt my head and think like a scumbag, I can sort of see how you might have reached that conclusion. But I digress.

To conclude: I argued against your attempt to manipulate or lead or influence or sway or convince or whatever the town via a complete logical fallacy. Scumtell, for one thing, unhelpful lies on the other. You said that 'Unless [someone] can suggest an alternative scenario

with evidence

, then the best play is to lynch one of [Nameless and DonJ].' I disagree that the best play is necessarily having to make a choice between the two of them because I

don't

happen to think that it's so certain that one or the other

must

be scum. Furthermore by painting it as a one-or-the-other choice you potentially set up mislynches, or, at the very least, attempted mislynches, as I, like Nameless, hope that the town will be sure to act like they have some fluffy grey matter in their skulls. Example: Nameless is lynched, and he flips town. Tomorrow, you say 'One of the two of them had to be scum, and it wasn't Nameless, so we should definitely lynch DonJ, as he

must

be scum'. Not the case; DonJ may well be scum. The same holds true for the converse.

Initially, I only believed that lynching one of them would have a good chance of hitting scum and provide a lot of information on the other.

Either he is scum and dropped a case that he saw wasn't working, or he is town and caught a scum, but became discouraged too soon. Unless you can suggest an alternative scenario

with evidence

, then the best play is to lynch one of you.

Well, this certainly comes after a long while of argument. In any case you did appear to be saying that the case must be that one of the two of them are scum. The 'either' seemed to indicate that, and the sentence telling us that we needed to suggest an alternate scenario with evidence seemed to indicate again that you believed strongly that your absolute statement was the only truly plausible scenario. Thus my responses.

Moving on. I agree with Juls that, as deadline is nigh, no-lynch must be avoided etc. I'm sure Mega's happy that the two viable bandwagons at this point are on Nameless and DonJ; I, as I'm sure you realize, would prefer to lynch DonJ, but I'll willingly lynch Nameless over a no-lynch. Hope it won't come to scrambling to avoid a no-lynch, though.

Why is it anti-town to ask Nameless to elaborate on the reasons behind his scum pairings?

Scumpartner speculation Day 1 distracts the town and is generally next to useless. Nameless did it, I didn't like it. You didn't either. Great. On the other hand, you want to continue to keep the subject open and elaborate on it, further distracting the town - the last thing we needed was inevitably incomplete speculation on Nameless' part, instigating more walls of text which would be absolutely useless and distracting. That's anti-town. In the context of already attacking Nameless for scumbuddy speculation, I find that scummy.

let me be clear: IF TOWN HAS A DOCTOR THEY SHOULDN'T BE LISTENING TO ME AND ONLY ME! I AM NOT TRYING TO DIRECT YOU. DO WHATEVER THE FUCK YOU WANT.

this is the only thing i said that was directly addressed to the doctor(if we even have one). THE ONLY THING. everything else was said in the spirit of discussing how to deal with our outed power roles.

Yes, and everything else was said clearly pushing your plan for what the Doctor should do - with specifics and direction, if not actually addresse to hypothetical Doc. Your Caps Lock shout out telling the Doc to do whatever he wants is in no way representative of your behavior regarding Doc strategy until that point.

Er - I also notice that all-over-the-board Porkens has accused Geraintm of being the SK. Can't quite see where that's coming from. I read his points but I don't see nearly enough to convince me that Geraintm's likely the SK.

[Plum]

Wow. How the heck did that happen???

Porkens KILLS Plum

I feel so betrayed . No, seriously, when I got killed I was sure Mega was scum. Also, I was pretty sure I wouldn't have wanted Don lynched Day 2 had I still been alive. Not sure why Porkens decided to kill me - care to say, or maybe post your quicktopic, which I'd love to see? I was kinda flattered - my first time ever getting NK'd (still never gotten lynched!).

I vaguely followed Day 2 forward. Nice Porkens kill, Geraintm. And Juls, one way or another I got the impression that you played quite well. Sorry, my reads were all really off. Atronach did a good job of appearing to contribute without getting in the middle of much controversy, if I recall.

I'm now 2/2/1 (the 1 ended prematurely) - for the first time my record is not below .500.

[Plum]

Plum

: I believe it is addressed in the quicktopic, but the reason we chose you for NK D1 is because we thought you had the best chance of outing us. Trying to get rid of the level-headed players, and keep the controversial:) ones in.

Thank you. I'm totally open to flattery after the game when I don't have to worry about scum trying to butter me up . However, you should know that if you left me alive you could have used me to help push a Mega mislynch. After that whole discussion towards the end of Day 1 (ironically, though Mega's statements did imply he was very certain about at least one of Nameless and DonJ being scum, neither were) - anyway, I was prepared to pound his lynch into the ground .

Hi, Vi, what the heck are

you

doing here? Ah, you reviewed the setup. I thought it was really nicely planned and quite creative while still being a, you know, mini-Normal. SpyreX, your modding was great, setup cool as I stated before, and the deadlines worked nicely, I think. I remember Day 1 was a little under two weeks long, yes? That was one long-post-intensive Day 1. I was almost relieved that I wouldn't have to do a mega post every single night to even have a shot at keeping abreast of stuff for another week:lol:.

I know everyone's giving ChaosOmega a lot of flack, but apparently his last post on the site was in this game. It

was

annoying that he disappeared, especially with him being Doc (well, not too annoying for scum, I guess ), don't get me wrong, but if he ever does show his face around here again it might be worth asking the guy if any urgent RL stuff came up or something.