Crackers! Mafia -- Game Over. See page 50


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Post Post #1250 (ISO) » Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:06 pm

Post by Raging Rabbit »

Adel wrote:Sure, but I think my ruleset is getting a little sloppy -- I know that I need to clean them up a little. I'd even be happy to review it for you. I really want to popularize the format since I think it yields a better paced game.
Thanks! I'll send you a draft of the setup when I'll have one.


I don't like any of the role nerfs, unnecassarily weakens them and takes away from the real-time aspect, imo. Note that the nature of the setup slightly weakens these roles anyways, since in a normal game they're guaranteed to get the same result of winning the race here. You can disable all choices at the beginning of each day until everyone checks in to prevent the start of day races.
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Post Post #1251 (ISO) » Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:22 pm

Post by roflcopter »

yeeehaw!

yeah i totally thought i had confirmed dgb as town on d3. good thing she was actually town.

i´m glad the scum took so long to catch onto the fact that the people i was calling pro town from as early as possible were failing to die to night kills.

and i don´t think you should change the doctor role, adel. it was a very important strategic element of the game trying to determine the optimal protection as early in the day as possible. thats why i started day one aggressively hunting for town tells instead of scum tells.

and finally, this game is just one more piece of evidence for my thesis that whenever i´m in a game with korts, he´s scum
soi soi soi

wins: open 69 (townie), mini 592 (sk), mini 617 (mafia rb), open 102 (mafia lover), crackers! (doctor), mini 712 (doctor), mini 715 (townie), mini 770 (inventor), lynch all lurkers (townie), mafia 100 (mason), space mafia (neighborizer)
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Post Post #1252 (ISO) » Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:25 pm

Post by roflcopter »

ps i don´t know if it was just the deep south setup or what but doctor is not an easy role, this was probably the most stressful game for me as far as night choices go that i´ve ever played
soi soi soi

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Post Post #1253 (ISO) » Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:29 pm

Post by Guardian »

party at destructor's house night 1!

rofl you played well also, in addition to rabit. both bunnies played well.
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Post Post #1254 (ISO) » Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:32 pm

Post by roflcopter »

thanks guardian. sorry i was so adamantly against you d1, that was my biggest misread of the game.
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wins: open 69 (townie), mini 592 (sk), mini 617 (mafia rb), open 102 (mafia lover), crackers! (doctor), mini 712 (doctor), mini 715 (townie), mini 770 (inventor), lynch all lurkers (townie), mafia 100 (mason), space mafia (neighborizer)
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Post Post #1255 (ISO) » Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:34 pm

Post by roflcopter »

oh yeah, reasons for protects: d1 des bc obvtown, d2 des bc i guessed i had a successful protect, d3 bc dgb bc also obvtown and i thought the mafia would stop trying to kill des after failing twice, d4 ragingrabbit because also obvtown. i´m way better and reading townness than scumitude, i think
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wins: open 69 (townie), mini 592 (sk), mini 617 (mafia rb), open 102 (mafia lover), crackers! (doctor), mini 712 (doctor), mini 715 (townie), mini 770 (inventor), lynch all lurkers (townie), mafia 100 (mason), space mafia (neighborizer)
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Post Post #1256 (ISO) » Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:38 pm

Post by populartajo »

Adel wrote:
populartajo wrote:
Conclusion
.
Either rolf and des are manipulating me like shit but they really scream town to me. DGB also felt town until he had that chat with CKD some pages ago, totally exaggerating an hypothesis the later brought to the table.
Elmo hasnt posted much but he also feels town. Gut.
BM is just being BM but slightly scummy.
Korts also I dont find him particularly scummy but there is something I dont like about him. Prob related to his stance in the rolf-CKD battle. Will reread him soon to have a better feeling about him.
Yos and Vollkan are hard to read but I expected to get a town read from them but havent. So neutral and will look closely at his post some time from now.
CKD felt scummy since page 5, pushing a weak case, and then went V/LA. When he came back he voted himsef. Yeah, he is the one I want to lynch today.
Kison at the same time also feels off sometimes, for not seeing the blatant CKD's scumminess. Add Sensefan to that group.
RR doesnt post much and when he does he generally asks questions. Not too fan of this.
this was populartajo's third post in the game. He nailed it.
:) Yey! GG town!
The time the last day lasted is a proof that how this town worked effectively to maximize the odds of winning the game. Funny how all got paranoid at some point of the day.
I think this is the best town Ive seen since my arrival here. Des played perfectly and it was obvious he was going to attract doc protection. He has some amazing posts D1. RR also was excellent after D2. Good job with the protections, rolf. Finally, its a good thing CKD acted like he did since it pretty much helped me to have that nice read of everyone I had above.
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Post Post #1257 (ISO) » Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:43 pm

Post by roflcopter »

i also tried really hard d1 to make des an nk target, so that whole "who do you think is town" schtick was part of my strategy
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wins: open 69 (townie), mini 592 (sk), mini 617 (mafia rb), open 102 (mafia lover), crackers! (doctor), mini 712 (doctor), mini 715 (townie), mini 770 (inventor), lynch all lurkers (townie), mafia 100 (mason), space mafia (neighborizer)
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Post Post #1258 (ISO) » Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:03 pm

Post by destructor »

=)

This is possibly the most enjoyable game I've played on ms. You guys were all great to play with, so thank you for that. I probably won't be joining a new game any time soon but hopefully I'll be able to play with some of you again if/when I play again. Adel, thanks for making such an interesting and enjoyable game for us.

I've nominated it for a Most Enjoyable Game scummie here.

I think our powerroles played great. rofl's protections were obviously well chosen and his "town-fishing" was something special, haha. Elmo played a good Cop. I appreciated his comment about trying to play just scummily enough not to be a nightkill but also not be a huge suspect and I think he did that well.

Guardian, was there a reason in particular that you chose to track me? Also, can you remember why you thought ckd was town?

Most of our vanillas were awesome too. Despite my paranoia, RR's play was effective and very pro-town. I'm not sure what BM was on this game and I think his lynch did actually help the town (besides the fact that I hammered early :oops:), so I guess that was an exception, ha. I was looking forward to more insights from Kison. He was looking pretty pro-town to me as well. Even Tajo seemed so town to me.

On that, was it really the best play to lynch him yesterday? We were all certain that Korts was the SK and most of us were also fairly certain that Tajo would flip town. But we lynched him anyway. I know that it did increase our chances of winning so I'm still trying to work out how it all made sense. I guess we decided to side with the numbers over our 'feelings' or something like that.
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Post Post #1259 (ISO) » Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:11 pm

Post by roflcopter »

yeah that tajo lynch was pretty silly, but hey everything worked out

adel, why was the game named crackers!
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Post Post #1260 (ISO) » Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:48 pm

Post by Guardian »

I chose to track you within the first two pages, because you said something interesting.

ckd... yeah he was just normal town most of the reasons for lynching him were crap.
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Post Post #1261 (ISO) » Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:08 pm

Post by Adel »

roflcopter wrote:adel, why was the game named crackers!
Inuit Mafia, +plus me using a doc+cop+tracker in a game. madness.
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Post Post #1262 (ISO) » Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:10 pm

Post by Raging Rabbit »

des wrote:On that, was it really the best play to lynch him yesterday? We were all certain that Korts was the SK and most of us were also fairly certain that Tajo would flip town. But we lynched him anyway. I know that it did increase our chances of winning so I'm still trying to work out how it all made sense. I guess we decided to side with the numbers over our 'feelings' or something like that.
I think it was, it maximized our chances of winning and there was no real reason not to cover our back. It's not like we hurt Tajo's feelings or anything, he was lynched very emphatically I believe. :)
Still, apologies for making everyone go paranoid.

Hope I'll get another chance to catch a game with you sometimes in the future, des.
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Post Post #1263 (ISO) » Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:26 pm

Post by Elmo »

destructor wrote:Elmo played a good Cop. I appreciated his comment about trying to play just scummily enough not to be a nightkill but also not be a huge suspect and I think he did that well.
Yeah, I think I played it about right, it went bit different to how I thought it would go due to almost everyone alive being obv town, haha. The missing kills make my play seem fairly pointless, actually, but I think if it hadn't gone that way, getting the cop through to endgame alive with a bunch of living innocents might have been much stronger. Oh well. I thought the town was probably strong enough that we had good chances if I backed off scumhunting a little - I would have gone psycho on Yos2, Korts, and Vollkan in that order had I been vanilla, so I think I was probably right on that @_@. Definitely right about the town's scumhunting too, they did really well. It actually looked
easy
, surprisingly.

I'm not sure if I'd play cop the same way again, but it's certainly something I wanted to try out sometime. It's surprisingly stressful to have to avoid looking scummy
and
avoid looking townish
and
know that you have to hide that you're doing it. Especially I was worried that someone would just tell Korts to kill me without thinking of asking me for a claim. I thought Yos2 was scum, and hoped that he remembered being town with me in Packrats where I showed the same kind of attitude as vanilla, otherwise I might have done it a bit differently. :)
Adel wrote:The only real mistake made by any town player was Elmo not sending in an investigation during day 2. Even though he had an innocent on BM from day 1, I don't think that it was a mistake for him to not clear BM. Letting BM hang was probably good for the town.
I could be misremembering, but I think Day 2 was in the period where I had the bout of lurking. I didn't want to make another decision when I posted my "hi, here" post because I couldn't think straight, I thought I'd come back after some sleep and try and assess if defending BM was plausible. I suppose it's arguable whether I made a mistake not sending in an investigation or whether the town made a mistake of accidentally hammering. I would probably have defended him as vanilla, but it would probably have been a bit obvious given the roles and my d1 breadcrumb.

The bigger mistake was simply investigating BM. A decent cop aiming for innocents should simply not have their investigatee run up the next day. That, again, was a too-quick decision after Guardian was killed and I saw the day might end without me getting an investigation in. I was really amazed at how he managed to draw that number of votes that fast, especially in a strong town who know his reputation full well. (I did genuinely think he was a bit likely to be town on day 1.)

FWIW, the 2-week lurking was not intentional and totally unavoidable, I'm sorry about that. I approve of the rules on replacements. I pretty much forced myself to post every day even though I felt I was going to be incoherent to try and compensate.

I'm curious as to what people think of my play. The only thing I wish I did differently was choosing between FL and Vollkan; they were both scum, and yet again I kind of really struggled to choose between them because of that, which always results in: scum lynched, hey wasn't Elmo being really wishy-washy, vote Elmo. :P I wanted to get more out of the day since I thought it was likely something weird was going on (and it was). I wish people would stop seeing "I'm not sure" as automatically scummy.
Elmo wrote:I really don't like that list, but I have no idea why.
I finally figured this out!
vollkan wrote:4. FL - {bad reasons}
75
vollkan wrote:You know better than most how much I tend to vacillate and obsess about different possibilities.
is why. I have no idea why people thought he wouldn't be bussing FL, it's almost a textbook situation where bussing is the only viable route. Chalk another one up for "bussing is magic pixie dust". =D
roflcopter wrote:i also tried really hard d1 to make des an nk target, so that whole "who do you think is town" schtick was part of my strategy
That's pretty smart. I was surprised you were the doc, since you were so obviously town. WIFOM? :)

I was right about the Guardian kill being mafia! Whee. I wonder if it was why I thought? I'd be really interested to see the quicktopic. I have no idea why they thought Korts was a good kill. Hadn't he claimed Guardian, a mafia kill as his own at that point?
Yosarian2 wrote:Elmo hasn't done that much yet, but I totally expect him to nail the scum godfather given another 48 hours or so, so I'll give him some breathing room.
This is some serious irony, right here. I read this and thought "how does he know the scum have a godfather?" which made me suspicious of him. I later considered investigating him, but avoided it because I felt that he was scummy and based on what he said, if he was scum he was likely to be a godfather. And thank god for that! :)

Can't agree more with what's been said, the night actions paint a slightly different picture than my thoughts of the game, but the town was pretty devastatingly good. It was quite literally like X, Y, Z are all obv town, who's left? I think it's ironic that Vollkan began the game with a tirade against towntells and ended it having his mafia group destroyed by them :P

That was long. gg wp town!
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Post Post #1264 (ISO) » Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:47 pm

Post by Guardian »

yeah elmo did a good job of being suspicious enough not to die.

when I made my post I was sure I would be killed for it, and was, but I figured it was worth saving ckd, since he was town. but the town lynched him anyway, so that sucked.
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Post Post #1265 (ISO) » Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:39 pm

Post by Kison »

The CKD wagon was a joke.
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Post Post #1266 (ISO) » Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:49 pm

Post by forbiddanlight »

Nyeh, not only did I not really give it my all like I wish I could have, but I was against a spot on town, replacing a lurker. I've come to the conclusion though that replacing lurker scum can be a double edged sword. You don't have to contradict yourself as much since there isn't much to contradict, but you have to do more work to look townie, and I just didn't have the ability/time to do it. I meant what I said after I was lynched about being sorry I couldn't give it my all. Either way, town played really well, and I think it was fun. Good game all.
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Post Post #1267 (ISO) » Thu Jan 01, 2009 8:33 pm

Post by curiouskarmadog »

my wagon was a joke...

did learn something from this game, though..no matter what..always save self...if I would have jumped on Korts wagon, might have hung the SK...have a feeling once I jumped on his wagon, I would have hung faster..who knows how everything would have changed after.
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Post Post #1268 (ISO) » Thu Jan 01, 2009 8:47 pm

Post by Elmo »

Yeah, that, and we didn't really get much information from your wagon, I don't really know what you envisaged happening in later days but I just didn't find e.g. the self-vote at all helpful when I was rereading. Yos2's vote on you was probably the only really helpful thing, and that happened really early in the day, way before you were lynched. Personally, I would have much preferred a Korts lynch when it got late in day 1 (I don't think I ever voted you?). I think you would actually have tipped the balance over if you voted for him.

I think pretty much what I did at the time, there was a valid case against you, but it was very thin, and not enough for a lynch - although, you know, it's day 1. I think defending yourself instead of self-voting (!?) would have been better.

People who consider voting 'the other guy' a scumtell are just wrong. I would actually have encouraged you to do so and probably defended that specific action against anyone who said it was scummy, FWIW.
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Post Post #1269 (ISO) » Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:36 am

Post by populartajo »

My strong protown reads (des and rolf, even DGB) came from their respective analysis of the CKD wagon.
Especially des' analysis of the situation was what prob led to the doc protections and posterior attempts to kill him.
So I wouldnt say CKD's lynch was useless.
And I still think he was mildly scummy not so much for his behaviour that started making sense after some pages of weak attacks. He was attacking someone I thought was pretty much town (insert easy target theory and avoidance to see town behaviour theory, here)
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Post Post #1270 (ISO) » Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:04 am

Post by curiouskarmadog »

how did you get strong town vibes from rolf? he refused to answer questions, was coy and was responsible for hanging me (town). I understand now why he stated des was so town" but didnt back it up with anything...because (and I was right) it was bullshit...he WAS just trying to draw a kill on des so he could block...it wasnt really based on anything. It was a good play actually, but it pinged my radar as scummy.

elmo, At the time, I thought vollkan and rolf were scum...and I didnt think anyone would pressure them until they knew my alignment. So I really didnt care if I hung(just vanilla). I have also seen scum and town throw off votes by self voting (though i think I wont do that again after reading Flay's thoughts on the matter). I did defend myself thoroughly so I am not sure where you got that I didnt. I was trying to stay alive, but didnt want to vote Korts (who I thought wasnt scum), and that was the only thing I could think of doing. Felt (at the time) the risk was worth it either way.
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Post Post #1271 (ISO) » Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:03 am

Post by populartajo »

curiouskarmadog wrote:how did you get strong town vibes from rolf? he refused to answer questions, was coy and was responsible for hanging me (town). I understand now why he stated des was so town" but didnt back it up with anything...because (and I was right) it was bullshit...he WAS just trying to draw a kill on des so he could block...it wasnt really based on anything. It was a good play actually, but it pinged my radar as scummy.
I dont know what exactly made me think rolf couldnt be scum now that I quick reread for an answer. It was pretty much gut combined with the idea that I didnt think rolfscum would have pushed "des is town" so hard with the possibility of a doctor in the setup. When you started attacking him I immediately sided with him since you cant blame us (the townies that supported your wagon) for considering your behaviour scummy towards him. There were some weak attacks and rolf was like fighting them not optimally but really really in a townie manner. Thats it basically.
Just curious, at some point, did you think des was scum?
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Post Post #1272 (ISO) » Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:20 am

Post by The Fonz »

How about putting a 24hr delay on the kill, Adel? (Phrase it as 'in 24hrs time, or simultaneously with the lynch, whichever happens first).

That gives docs the chance to get in protects, trackers to get in their targets, and so on.
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Post Post #1273 (ISO) » Fri Jan 02, 2009 9:12 am

Post by Guardian »

I like the deep south type of role wherein you make a choice during the day and it happens as if there were a night one -- as long as you have some choice in you get some result -- and you can revise your choice any time during the day.
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Post Post #1274 (ISO) » Fri Jan 02, 2009 9:13 am

Post by DrippingGoofball »

Korts wrote:I'm surprised I survived for so long.
Me too!!! I guess I last longer if the mafia doesn't have a nightkill, haha.
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