Newbie 688 - Game Over, Mafia Wins!

[Battle Mage]

I know it's not an empirical grounds, but if you look at the momentum shift when WC placed a vote on BM, it doesn't seem like bussing. Between WC and Crysania, they seem to be expressing an impatience with the day and urging it to be over sooner. Then BM's wagon seems to be losing steam, so WC tries to rebuild momentum on a BM wagon by putting him at L-1. I'm very tempted to unvote right now just because I think a lynch is premature.

Consider this. WC claims to be riding the vibe of town. Riding the vibe. This indicates some kind of distancing from town, as if she is not a part of it, but instead trying to find what it is that town is collectively feeling and becoming part of it. I consider this to be a soft scumclaim. Especially with the slightly scummy exchange between WC and Crysania (another high-pri suspect of mine) and the momentum shift which became evident when WC voted for BM. In fact, I'm going to take the initiative and undo that momentum swing.

unvote: BM
Vote: weathered Clown

Quit riding the vibe and start playing the part, if you're town. If you're scum, I'm more than happy to lynch you.

I think the part about "riding the vibe of the town" is a reach. It's an apparent synonym for going with the consensus. I see nothing wrong with referring to the town as an entity.

Also, the game has been deadlined and you think that a lynch would be premature?

Why do you claim that 'riding the vibe of the town' is a reach, when the person the comment was made about, has admitted that it is a valid criticism?

BM

=======================================

Page 22 Votecount

WeatheredClown: (3/5) Battle Mage, mrfixij, Alduskkel,
Crysnia: (1/5) springlullaby,
mrfixij: (1/5) WeatheredClown,
Alduskkel: (0/5)
Moses le fou: (0/5)
CF Riot: (0/5)
Battle Mage: (1/5) Moses le fou,
springlullaby: (0/5)
orangepenguin: (1/5) Crysnia

Not Voting: (2/9) orangepenguin, , CF Riot

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch!
=======================================

[Battle Mage]

WC: Generally good reasoning, except in his latest post (which I will go into more detail soon). One thing though: when he said he had been using other people's summaries of the situations, I took his word for it. But I scanned over his posts again, and I don't think he's been doing that. So I'd have to say he crumbled a little too easy under BM's accusations.

What possible motive could he have for admitting to a scumtell which he didnt commit? Or perhaps more relevant- what possible PROTOWN motive could he have had?

BM

[Alduskkel]

WC: Generally good reasoning, except in his latest post (which I will go into more detail soon). One thing though: when he said he had been using other people's summaries of the situations, I took his word for it. But I scanned over his posts again, and I don't think he's been doing that. So I'd have to say he crumbled a little too easy under BM's accusations.

What possible motive could he have for admitting to a scumtell which he didnt commit? Or perhaps more relevant- what possible PROTOWN motive could he have had?

BM

Well, as WC commented, he did in fact do it. But let's assume he hadn't committed the scum tell for the purposes of answering your question.

I can't really think of a Pro-Town motive for admitting to a scum tell you didn't commit. But scum might admit to it in the interest of keeping the spotlight off of them, since if 2 players get into an argument it naturally draws attention to them. And scum don't want that.

But again, he did ride the vibe of the Town so this is irrelevant.

[WeatheredClown]

You should really try and defend yourself WC; if you don't, chances are you will be deadline lynched, assuming votes don't change between now and the 14th.

As far as I'm aware, I've addressed everything that was directed to me.
Is there something that I missed?

[Alduskkel]

WC: Generally good reasoning, except in his latest post (which I will go into more detail soon). In a recent postof his he said:

the first day isn't actually based on logic

That's ridiculous. We use logic to figure out, "Hmm, is such-and-such-an-action something a Mafia would do?

Looking back and just reading his posts it seems like everything he [mrfixij] says is about misuse of FoS or PBP or accusing people of OMGUS, scum pairs, or quoting every logical fallacy on the wiki.

Why is this bad? Accusations and logical fallacies are a key part of Mafia (the game, that is).

I feel like you're [mrfixij] using arguments that will be much more valid in a few days (and therefore look reasonable now) to sew confusion and disharmony.

I don't get how mrfixij is doing that. Could you quote some examples?

PS. i suspect mrfixitj (and have since early on) and he and battlemage are both voting for me.. I doubt scum would be so obvious as to vote together on one person.. therefore, under this hypothesis, battle mage would be innocent. We'll see how that plays out.

This is pure WIFOM.

Also this

Consider this. WC claims to be riding the vibe of town. Riding the vibe. This indicates some kind of distancing from town, as if she is not a part of it, but instead trying to find what it is that town is collectively feeling and becoming part of it. I consider this to be a soft scumclaim. Especially with the slightly scummy exchange between WC and Crysania (another high-pri suspect of mine) and the momentum shift which became evident when WC voted for BM. In fact, I'm going to take the initiative and undo that momentum swing.

And his vote on mrfixij was OMGUSy.

[WeatheredClown]

WC: Generally good reasoning, except in his latest post (which I will go into more detail soon). One thing though: when he said he had been using other people's summaries of the situations, I took his word for it. But I scanned over his posts again, and I don't think he's been doing that. So I'd have to say he crumbled a little too easy under BM's accusations.

What possible motive could he have for admitting to a scumtell which he didnt commit? Or perhaps more relevant- what possible PROTOWN motive could he have had?

BM

Well, as WC commented, he did in fact do it. But let's assume he hadn't committed the scum tell for the purposes of answering your question.

I can't really think of a Pro-Town motive for admitting to a scum tell you didn't commit. But scum might admit to it in the interest of keeping the spotlight off of them, since if 2 players get into an argument it naturally draws attention to them. And scum don't want that.

But again, he did ride the vibe of the Town so this is irrelevant.

I can't figure out how this is a scum tell though. To me it feels more like "getting caught up in the moment."..

perhaps "riding the vibe" is a term with special meaning on this forum, and therefore it is not something you should say about yourself, where as "upon reconsidering, my reasoning was not as solid as I had thought when I cast the vote".

to me.. those two statements are the same, but maybe that's from not yet being as immersed in the "reserved phrases" of this forum yet.

[Alduskkel]

Consider this. WC claims to be riding the vibe of town. Riding the vibe. This indicates some kind of distancing from town, as if she is not a part of it, but instead trying to find what it is that town is collectively feeling and becoming part of it. I consider this to be a soft scumclaim.

And that's why it's a scum tell.

[Battle Mage]

I'll look at BM closer on Friday or Saturday. Maybe I'll pick up on scumtells that will convince me he is a better lynch than WC. Maybe.

How did we get from post 509 to here? You sound very much like you're keeping your options open till the last minute, so you can excuse a quick votechange. Not liking it.

BM

[Crysnia]

I'm really confused about that statement. So you distance yourself from the town by going along with the town?

[Battle Mage]

WC: Generally good reasoning, except in his latest post (which I will go into more detail soon). One thing though: when he said he had been using other people's summaries of the situations, I took his word for it. But I scanned over his posts again, and I don't think he's been doing that. So I'd have to say he crumbled a little too easy under BM's accusations.

What possible motive could he have for admitting to a scumtell which he didnt commit? Or perhaps more relevant- what possible PROTOWN motive could he have had?

BM

Well, as WC commented, he did in fact do it. But let's assume he hadn't committed the scum tell for the purposes of answering your question.

I can't really think of a Pro-Town motive for admitting to a scum tell you didn't commit. But scum might admit to it in the interest of keeping the spotlight off of them, since if 2 players get into an argument it naturally draws attention to them. And scum don't want that.

But again, he did ride the vibe of the Town so this is irrelevant.

I can't figure out how this is a scum tell though. To me it feels more like "getting caught up in the moment."..

perhaps "riding the vibe" is a term with special meaning on this forum, and therefore it is not something you should say about yourself, where as "upon reconsidering, my reasoning was not as solid as I had thought when I cast the vote".

to me.. those two statements are the same, but maybe that's from not yet being as immersed in the "reserved phrases" of this forum yet.

To clarify, the two arent really the same. In saying your rode the vibe of the town, you say that your original vote was for reasons of others, rather than genuine suspicion. Following other UNCONFIRMED people is scummy. It has nothing to do with how solid your reasoning was, because it wasnt your reasoning.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I'm really confused about that statement. So you distance yourself from the town by going along with the town?

Yes.

Because if you go along with the town, you dont include yourself in the town

, as if you were town, you wouldnt know who was and wasnt town.

BM

[WeatheredClown]

To clarify, the two arent really the same. In saying your rode the vibe of the town, you say that your original vote was for reasons of others, rather than genuine suspicion. Following other UNCONFIRMED people is scummy. It has nothing to do with how solid your reasoning was, because it wasnt your reasoning.
BM

Aaannnd... that's why I unvoted when I realized that's what I was doing... I see we've now caught up to the present.

[WeatheredClown]

Thanks! I feel like I may have addressed some of this already, but I'll put it all here for good measure.

WC: Generally good reasoning, except in his latest post (which I will go into more detail soon). In a recent postof his he said:

the first day isn't actually based on logic

That's ridiculous. We use logic to figure out, "Hmm, is such-and-such-an-action something a Mafia would do?

yeah, kinda.. but people are all so different, it's hard to distinguish a tell from a quirk... I tend to think that the real logic come in after votes start to reveal data which can be tabulated against. I'm not saying the the votes have to be "random" (especially after day 1 has gone on for weeks), but it's very different from the decisions that are use for deeper into the game (where in my opinion it gets really fun)

Looking back and just reading his posts it seems like everything he [mrfixij] says is about misuse of FoS or PBP or accusing people of OMGUS, scum pairs, or quoting every logical fallacy on the wiki.

Why is this bad? Accusations and logical fallacies are a key part of Mafia (the game, that is).

his talk of scumpairs for people who agree with each other (this many people means some of them are going to agree with each other's logic) and suspicion for not casting votes (day 1 there's isn't a lot to go on if you like to have solid evidence before casting a vote) seem like things you'd start using later in the game. Just my opinion. He seems to be enjoying using the jargon more than getting to know the people then making a final judgement. Could just be his style, but it's certainly very different from has been developing as my preferred play method (after all of 1 other game).

I feel like you're [mrfixij] using arguments that will be much more valid in a few days (and therefore look reasonable now) to sew confusion and disharmony.

I don't get how mrfixij is doing that. Could you quote some examples?

addressed above... but out of curiosity... why are you directing so much suspicion toward me for my comments against mrfixij? that in and of itself is a *little* suspicious.

PS. i suspect mrfixitj (and have since early on) and he and battlemage are both voting for me.. I doubt scum would be so obvious as to vote together on one person.. therefore, under this hypothesis, battle mage would be innocent. We'll see how that plays out.

This is pure WIFOM.

I think that I was saying in a previous post that I don't think that this is WIFOM, rather as you said, "We use logic to figure out, "Hmm, is such-and-such-an-action something a Mafia would do?"" seems reasonable to me... although here I see that you're trying to throw suspicion onto BM in case mrfixij gets voted off today... more evidence that you and mrfixij are the scum? I doubt it could possibly be that easy, but interesting none the less.

Also this

Consider this. WC claims to be riding the vibe of town. Riding the vibe. This indicates some kind of distancing from town, as if she is not a part of it, but instead trying to find what it is that town is collectively feeling and becoming part of it. I consider this to be a soft scumclaim. Especially with the slightly scummy exchange between WC and Crysania (another high-pri suspect of mine) and the momentum shift which became evident when WC voted for BM. In fact, I'm going to take the initiative and undo that momentum swing.

And his vote on mrfixij was OMGUSy.

[/quote]
I haven't liked mrfixij ever since he said that somebody was shady for claiming somebody else was shady for using FOS, when they didn't appear shady to me at all.. This began a series of conclusions that he was coming to that I felt like reaching.. so I think that mrfixij is the vote that is most true to my opinions. Perhaps in my heart of hearts there is an OMGUS element to it, but it's the direction I've been leaning this whole day.


let's plug this in and see how I did with the quote/unquote above.

[Alduskkel]

PS. i suspect mrfixitj (and have since early on) and he and battlemage are both voting for me.. I doubt scum would be so obvious as to vote together on one person.. therefore, under this hypothesis, battle mage would be innocent. We'll see how that plays out.

This is pure WIFOM.

I think that I was saying in a previous post that I don't think that this is WIFOM, rather as you said, "We use logic to figure out, "Hmm, is such-and-such-an-action something a Mafia would do?"" seems reasonable to me... although here I see that you're trying to throw suspicion onto BM in case mrfixij gets voted off today... more evidence that you and mrfixij are the scum? I doubt it could possibly be that easy, but interesting none the less.

It's WIFOM because if mrfixij and BM were scum together, and one was revealed to be scum, the other could just say, "What scum would be so obvious as to agree with another scum?" which is WIFOM because they might have agreed with the other scum just so they could make that defense.

Also this

Consider this. WC claims to be riding the vibe of town. Riding the vibe. This indicates some kind of distancing from town, as if she is not a part of it, but instead trying to find what it is that town is collectively feeling and becoming part of it. I consider this to be a soft scumclaim. Especially with the slightly scummy exchange between WC and Crysania (another high-pri suspect of mine) and the momentum shift which became evident when WC voted for BM. In fact, I'm going to take the initiative and undo that momentum swing.

And his vote on mrfixij was OMGUSy.

I haven't liked mrfixij ever since he said that somebody was shady for claiming somebody else was shady for using FOS, when they didn't appear shady to me at all.. This began a series of conclusions that he was coming to that I felt like reaching.. so I think that mrfixij is the vote that is most true to my opinions.

I assume you're talkng about Panamon a.k.a. QuestionMark a.k.a. Battle Mage.

See, mrfixij thought it was shady of Panamon to FoS without a vote because it means that Panamon might have been trying to avoid being connected with anything, thus meaning that if he was scum it would be harder to dig up evidence on him, at least via voting record.

And what do you mean by "a series of conclusions"?

[mrfixij]

@WC: I think it's funny that you mention all of my pairing/antipairing statements as a statement against me, while creating your own and neglecting to mention the frequent impression that people were previously under that spring and I were scumbuddies. Speaking of, I wonder where spring went.

Also, you're misrepresenting my case. I suggested a pairing between you and Crys because of the obvious daytalk shortly before my mention. One thing I'll give you credit for is that you've been riding my ass all game. That much you're telling the truth about, although you're making the same fallacy as Crys did by saying that I post too much and am too belligerant. In other words, too townie to be town.

I was obviously a standout player from page 1. You lay down suspicion on me while casting your vote elsewhere with weak wagonish basis and then say that you've been suspicious of me all along. It's an easy way to stay out of the spotlight, just like saying that you've been riding the vibe of town. It's also opportunistic, which is another character trait of scum.

In other words, WC is scum. Lynch it.

[CF Riot]

It's the weekend. I

will

finish my reread tonight. Top of page 12 currently. I never saw the deadline post. Can someone tell me when deadline is exactly?

Mod:

would you be so kind as to include our deadline somewhere before or after the votecount please?

[vollkan]

The deadline is Sunday 14th December at 6:00pm GMT+10.

To help, I've just set up a deadline countdown which you can check here: Link to timer

[CF Riot]

2 and a half hours later and here's what we got. All straight from my notes. A little unorganized, please excuse me.

Panamon's vote/reasoning for Zade is okay. Panamon did not break any rules, and I don't even think what he did is "dirty" like Moses keeps saying. However, what was scummy was him (Pan) jumping ship when people said he reason was lame, and throwing his new vote on Mastin who was a popular wagon at the time.
----
Moses left the Mastin wagon at just the right time for me, and voted Pan just when I felt like Pan was looking scummy. Therefore I felt like Moses was playing smart and townish. However I noticed now after the spat between him and BM that his reason for the vote is not so logical. I also don't understand why he's so avidly defending Zade(me), although maybe this is unintentional and a byproduct of attacking BM(Pan).
----
WC looks scummish to me. Mostly short posts. Nothing to controversial. Usually a passing comment about an ongoing spat or his interpretation of another player's action. However there's no intensity to any of it. He doesn't seem like he's looking for some unknown villain, he looks like he's biding his time until a good looking wagon comes along. Staying active, but not making waves, and keeping his opinions close to neutral. I'll find quotes to back this up after I decide how much I believe what I'm writing. (At this point I started marking down posts that caught my eye, but never went back to previously read pages. 309, 319, 435 were good examples. I notice other people already picked up on this though.)
----
Fixit rubs me all the wrong ways

(dirty, dirty minds)

but I'm waiting right now because I can't tell if he's just more aggressive than I'm used to. Some of the arguments he's made have made me cringe, but that's not saying they were scummy. I wouldn't claim a fixit/SL scum pair right now just based on their interactions. If anything, it looked more to me like fixit buddying up to someone who was helping him lynch his target.
----
BM 291, c'mon now. He's leaving the game for poop's sake, you really think he's trying to look townish in the way he replaces out? The more I read of you, the more I get the feeling that you're one of those guys who's an asshole equally to your friends and people you don't like, and you don't mind people knowing it. If this sounds like an insult it's not meant to be, I'm sort of that way IRL. You laughed at Moses's rebound burn on you about the pocket dictionary. Good sport.

Recap, yes Pan was scummy but BM hasn't been really. The one problem I saw with his play was his initial fights with Fixit. I read it something like this:

• BM: Weak case, bus, bus, bus. Nevermind, you're okay.
  Fixit: OMGUS, defend, defend, defend. No problem, we're pals now.

After a quick little spat, they're now voting together and seem to be chasing a lot of the same suspects.
----
Crysnia hadn't seemed overly scummy to me, and I was curious about those who thought she was, until post 313. A seemingly unprovoked claim. I don't like it, but I'm going to stay on the safe side and pull the newb card.
----
Dusky 318 I feel ya bro. No love for the lonely replacement.

417, that's sort of completely wrong.

I find it interesting how BM's case on me solely consists of my wishywashiness. He hasn't noted anything other than that. Have I done anything else that's scummy? If not you can hardly bring a case against me.

Wishywashiness is

a)

not a word and

b)

legitimately scummy. It has many names like, riding the fence, bandwagoning, etc. It's valid scum play because it keeps you from having to push a case that may not go through. Now it's not a definite indicator of scum in every case (nothing is) but you need to adapt to the idea that this isn't the best way to play. If it's a personal trait, you need to try and compensate for that. (My opinion.)
----
OP: 346, you're right, so FIX THAT PART of your game. It will help you in that you won't have to waste time arguing it down in future games, and it will help the town not mislynch you when you're town.
----
519 is good posting. Keep that up.


The vote thing is tough. The people I'm suspicious of are all making this big vote triangle that makes me afraid to side with any of them. I'm going to stick with the only person I have supporting evidence for. WC (in my head I call you Wailing Caverns) seems like a good D1 lynch.

Vote: WeatheredClown

L-1.

[springlullaby]

Hm, I don't think WC reads like scum at all.

And I have to say I like about everything about CF's post except from his reason to think Weather scummy, it is just dissonant and a tad textbook.

But yeah, Weather your cue to claim is now if you want to.

[Alduskkel]

Hm, I don't think WC reads like scum at all.

Why?

I'm going to go ahead and reread BM's posts and then give my thoughts about him.

[Alduskkel]

Lo, it is my analysis of Battle Mage!!

I don't think he's done anything scummy, but Panamon has. Let's review:
Panamon has
-Bandwagoned
-Tried to avoid being connected to any bandwagon, as evidence by his hesitance to vote while still spreading suspicion with a FoS
-Put Scheherazade (now Riot) in a position where no matter what he did he would come out looking scummy

I don't think BM has been exactly the pinnacle of logic, but being illogical is not a scum tell.

So Panamon was scummy, but BM isn't. WeatheredClown, on the other hand, has been committing scum tells recently. So my vote stands.

One thing I've noticed:

Everytime you [me, Alduskkel] seem like you might actually make a stand on something, you immediately crumble and go back to riding the fence. I really feel uncomfortable with your constant non-commitalness, and how you always want to keep your options open.

But then later on:

I owe this game so much, and am a bad bad IC.

At this point of the game, I feel totally disconnected, I'm giving this a reread. I've noticed while skimming over the last page that Crysnia's has been stepping up a bit, so I'd like to know what has come of her suspicion of me.

I totally do not like that last post from mrfixij but I'll let people answer for themselves.

I also do not like BM changing vote after vote, I remember town BM being more fixated and affirmative than that.

See Return of the Mafia. One of the my favourite protown performances ever. i jumped from player to player there too. It's a protown play which really pays off if people can commit to it.

BM

In one you say that my crumbling is a scum tell and in the other you say that your vote hopping was Pro-Town. Naturally vote hopping is closely related to crumbling, since you have to give up one suspect for another.

And so concludes my analysis of players.

WC, if you're going to make any last-defense-type posts, you better do it soon because we have less than 7.5 hours until deadline.

But I doubt you can convince me, since riding the vibe of the Town is a pretty serious scum tell, and you yourself admit to doing it.

[Moses le fou]

I know it's not an empirical grounds, but if you look at the momentum shift when WC placed a vote on BM, it doesn't seem like bussing. Between WC and Crysania, they seem to be expressing an impatience with the day and urging it to be over sooner. Then BM's wagon seems to be losing steam, so WC tries to rebuild momentum on a BM wagon by putting him at L-1. I'm very tempted to unvote right now just because I think a lynch is premature.

Consider this. WC claims to be riding the vibe of town. Riding the vibe. This indicates some kind of distancing from town, as if she is not a part of it, but instead trying to find what it is that town is collectively feeling and becoming part of it. I consider this to be a soft scumclaim. Especially with the slightly scummy exchange between WC and Crysania (another high-pri suspect of mine) and the momentum shift which became evident when WC voted for BM. In fact, I'm going to take the initiative and undo that momentum swing.

unvote: BM
Vote: weathered Clown

Quit riding the vibe and start playing the part, if you're town. If you're scum, I'm more than happy to lynch you.

I think the part about "riding the vibe of the town" is a reach. It's an apparent synonym for going with the consensus. I see nothing wrong with referring to the town as an entity.

Also, the game has been deadlined and you think that a lynch would be premature?

Why do you claim that 'riding the vibe of the town' is a reach, when the person the comment was made about, has admitted that it is a valid criticism?

BM

Sorry, I meant that paragraph from your post was a reach. That whole viewing the town as a separate entity bit.

Anyways, in the interest of consensus, I'll switch my vote over.

Unvote
Vote: WeatheredClown

[vollkan]

=======================================

End of Day 1 Votecount

WeatheredClown: (5/5) Battle Mage, mrfixij, Alduskkel, CF Riot, Moses le fou
Crysnia: (1/5) springlullaby,
mrfixij: (1/5) WeatheredClown,
Alduskkel: (0/5)
Moses le fou: (0/5)
CF Riot: (0/5)
Battle Mage: (0/5) Moses le fou,
springlullaby: (0/5)
orangepenguin: (1/5) Crysnia

Not Voting: (1/9) orangepenguin

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch!
=======================================

The day is drawing to a close when, just before night fell, you settle on the lynch of WeatheredClown. WeatheredClown is taken to a nearby tree and strung up. As his shaking and writhing draws to a close, and his life is ended, a badge falls out of his pocket. It reads "Police Department".

WeatheredClown,

Cop

, was lynched Day 1.

======
It is now Night 1. All night choices are due in 72 hours - by 17th December at 5:30pm GMT+10. Here is a timer: Countdown To Day 2

[vollkan]

Everybody gathered the next morning, determined to sniff out the scum and avenge the loss of WeatheredClown...everybody, that is, except for mrfixij . Worried, the group rushed over the mrfixij's house, finding him lying dead in his bedroom. A note on his bedside table read: "Give up now town; it will hurt less in the long run." mrfixij was simply an ordinary townie.

mrfixij ,

Vanilla Townie

, was killed Night 1.

======
It is now Day 2. At this point in time, there is no deadline.

With 7 alive, it's 4 to lynch.

Oops, I forgot to unlock the thread. Sorry about that

[Alduskkel]

Vote: Crysnia

for reasons listed in Post 509.

Moses: Why did you feel the need to hammer WC? He was going to be lynched anyway.

I stand by WC's lynch on the basis that he was acting scummy.

Nothing to say about the night kill.