Crackers! Mafia -- Game Over. See page 50

[Elmo]

Why did you kill Guardian and Kison?
What was with the timing of the Kison kill?

[Korts]

Thanks for killing townie players, especially those that hint at power roles. Players that aren't even contenders for the lynch.

They weren't confirmed townies. I explicitly expressed suspicion on them. The cases wouldn't have stuck; you yourself say that they weren't even contenders for a lynch. I trust my own judgement. A 1 for 2 trade is pretty fair IMO.

I don't see what your actual problem is.

(regarding lurkerhunt)

Yeah, nothing wrong with that.

I agree with this. forb, why do you think the fact that it's Day 3 lowers the validity of a lurkerhunt?

[Korts]

Why did you kill Guardian and Kison?
What was with the timing of the Kison kill?

I killed Guardian because I saw that the case on him wasn't going to stick, and I percieved him to be defending CKD.

I killed Kison because I had a gut feeling on him. The timing of it was because I considered the number of players who expressed Kison being town over being scum, and again I thought that a case wouldn't stick. In retrospect I was a bit hurried, but at least I got a kill through.

I breadcrumbed my role and targets by emphasising after both the Guardian and Kison kills that they could easily have been a vig target.

[forbiddanlight]

I agree with this. forb, why do you think the fact that it's Day 3 lowers the validity of a lurkerhunt?

depends on the lurking level. I find it tends to be more damaging when a lurker is lynched later game than early game, but I overall disagree with LALurk. Elmo appeared to be busy and he did make a post to catch up it would seem. If he keeps lurking like this, I suppose I could understand more votes, though I still don't like LALurk as I said.

[roflcopter]

congratulations korts, the only person who i would have believed had vidged both guardian and kison

unvote

now seriously, what happened to all the mafia kills?

vote: elmo

[Korts]

congratulations korts, the only person who i would have believed had vidged both guardian and kison

Is that bad?

re: the mafia kills, day 1 a defensive role (RB/doc) definitely went through. I don't think they missed sending a kill by deadline.

[DrippingGoofball]

OH, I only just noticed that Yos is now dead, was a mafiate, and was a Godfather.

I laid back from the game for a while because I felt I was interfering with the scum's natural flow of bus'ing. And I had noticed that some players were bus'ing Yos, but Yos did not seem scummy to me.

Chief Yos bus'er: vollkan.

unvote, vote: vollkan

[populartajo]

OH, I only just noticed that Yos is now dead, was a mafiate, and was a Godfather.

I laid back from the game for a while because I felt I was interfering with the scum's natural flow of bus'ing. And I had noticed that some players were bus'ing Yos, but Yos did not seem scummy to me.

Chief Yos bus'er: vollkan.

unvote, vote: vollkan

RLY?
I think everybody should go back, reread Korts and find out if their claim makes sense. Im saying verybody because I dont have the time right now to do it.
Rolf, why do you believe him?

[roflcopter]

]Rolf, why do you believe him?

he and i were the only ones who kept insisting that kison and guardian made sense as vig kills, not just necessarily mafia kills. and i'm not counterclaiming.

i agree with dgb

unvote, vote: vollkan

[vollkan]

First, since when does OMGUS NOT stand for Oh My God U Suck? I am not redefining it. You are. Further, this IS a semantic debate. it is manifestly obvious why I am voting DGB. I don't think the reasons are so manifestly obvious, since she voted him BEFORE he started in with the whole she lied thing (I think?)

Firstly, it is not at all manifestly clear why you are voting DGB; not giving reasons was not scummy in the context, and being self-assured is by no means a scumtell and, for DGB, is perfectly in character.

As for OMGUS, tt does stand for "Oh My God yoU Suck", but that's neither here nor there. You accused DGB of "OMGUS" but, by the tenor of your argument, it is unclear what the hell you are meaning by "OMGUS". If you meant a generic "She voted somebody voting her", then that's a complete non-scumtell and you shouldn't have even said anything (buttressing my point about it being an emotional label). You couldn't have meant OMGUS in its proper sense, and here the wiki is my friend:

OMGUS stands for "Oh My God, You Suck (for voting for me)!". it is sometimes used as a shorthand to indicate that you are voting for someone primarily because they voted for you.

As I have already said, though, this definition has no operation in relation to what DGB said.

As for your point about her reasons not being manifest, that's absolute crap. Thankyou kindly for raising it, though, because you have drawn my attention to another deception of your cherry-pick quoting.

You quoted DGB as saying:

BM is scum, he must die. I don't know what he's up to, I don't know what impression he's trying to give, but he's a lying scumbag. This much I know.

I'm all for SensFan to die. But with this post, BM has shown me beyond the shadow of a doubt that he can only be scum.

unvote, vote: BattleMage

Fine. That

is

what she said. But have a look at the entire post:

Maybe i'd be more lenient towards you if you hadn't lied about your whereabouts on the day of Guardian's death.

BM is scum, he must die. I don't know what he's up to, I don't know what impression he's trying to give, but he's a lying scumbag. This much I know.

I'm all for SensFan to die. But with this post, BM has shown me beyond the shadow of a doubt that he can only be scum.

unvote, vote: BattleMage

So, clearly, she voted him after he started the whole "she lied" thing.

More fundamentally, though, the bit you omitted was the part by BM which showed, if it wasn't obvious just from the context, that she was voting him for a crappy accusation and not on the spurious grounds that you have raised.

Vote: forbiddanlight

I grant this, mostly because I got jumbled. I still think that BM was a planned mislynch.

You probably didn't mean "scapegoat"; it certainly makes no sense. But, that's really not the point. It's that you felt the need to ratchet things up by incorporating such a word. Saying BM is a "planned mislynch" is still an unfalsifiable assertion.

Well, no, actually you haven't. The only points you initially raised on DGB was the (wrong) OMGUS point, and the (context-ignorant) point about her not having explanations. You then later added a point about her seeming "too assured" (which is really just DGB's style of writing)

Then you haven't read my posts. And I have no need to debate you if you won't do that.

Ctrl+F DGB, viewing you in isolation.

vote: Korts for failure to claim. Scum hates having to claim.

I mostly agree, assumably another D1 event?

Nothing scummy here.

We should get 2 to 3 daykills per day. One from the compulsive vig, and another from the mafia - and perhaps one from the SK, should there be one.

You do understand the concept of "COULD be" in the game, right?

She's misguided about the role distribution. Meh.

Actually... Guardian was most likely a scum kill. So that the vig kill was foiled. Ah well. Forget what I said about the doctor. The dummy probably protected a scumbag.

You also forget the possibility of a mafia doc or mafia roleblocker. Both potential roles.

But, either way, how does speculating about killing roles help us? Beginning to get an IIoA vibe.

Again, wrong on roles. Not scummy.

rofl's and DGB's day 2 posts before this are all rather IIoA and somewhat scummy.

Okay, so you do find this scummy. In which case, what is "IIoA"?

BM is scum, he must die. I don't know what he's up to, I don't know what impression he's trying to give, but he's a lying scumbag. This much I know.

I'm all for SensFan to die. But with this post, BM has shown me beyond the shadow of a doubt that he can only be scum.

unvote, vote: BattleMage

Blatent OMGUS anyone?

No.

It's a most excellent wagon, regardless. BM is up to no good. He's not working for the town.

My future sight says that you were wrong. Care to explain?

Nothing scummy pointed to. The mere fact that BM was town is not a scumtell for DGB.

Well...that catches me up. I think I probably missed a lot in D1, and if anyone would like to breif me, it'd be happy making. Anyway...I think a Vote DGB is appropriate here. No matter how weird her meta is, the way she handled the BM wagon was really scummy in my eyes. She gets a slight reprieve for BM being a dumbass, but you didn't do much better. At least he had (very thinly justified) reasons. Also think Yos 2 should be looked at closer, especially if DGB flips scum.

The only evidence you point to here is the lack of reasons, which is crap anyway because the reasons were implicit.

Also, OMGUS is such a fictive scumtell. It doesn't exist in practice.

As far as DGB's vote goes, it certainly exists.

No.

OMGUS isnt a scumtell, full stop. Not when so many stupid townies fall into the trap. I fail to see the case on me however, and feel you fall into 1 of the above categories.

Most votes for attackers aren't OMGUS. They actually have some weak case. DGB is just...wow, and using force of will to push a lynch rather than logic feels scummy.
[/quote]

And she did have a case, you just ignored it because it wasn't expressly stated.

GOOD QUESTION. Razz

I looked into people's activity on site at the time of guardians death. Not everyone, just a few people i thought were scummy, and/or had motives for wanting him dead. DGB had not posted on site within the time frame available for the kill (in excess of 3 hours i think). When i asked her where she was, in an attempt to give her an opportunity to confirm herself, she claimed that she'd been at a computer-something which i find very unlikely given her normal posting rate when she has computer access. Motive for the lie? i'm not sure. But chronic lying when scum isnt uncommon.

BM

Of all the scumtells DGB dropped in attacking you...you clue in on THIS? Seriously BM, DGB now looks better since you were such a ridiculous arse here.

"Of all the scumtells". So far you've only named OMGUS, and you didn't even do that properly.

Kills are made in real time. Therefore we should be able to get some leads from who is online when the kill is submitted. Notice that you criticise my reasoning for voting DGB, perhaps justly, but then dont criticise her for having no reasoning whatsoever. Nice...

I actually agree with this. It makes Yos look a little worse, assuming DGB scum. And the reverse applies too.

Nothing's added to your case here.

I'd like to lynch vollkan today. All the while he stays on the sidelines. He's very off.

You have a bit of a point there. I don't recall many stances from him at all.

Ironic that despite finding crappy reasons for suspecting DGB, you still play along with crappy reasoning of DGB herself.

No, it isn't OMGUS. OMGUS is the fallacy of arguing along the lines of "I know I am town. Person X is attacking me. Since Person X is attacking me, who I know to be town, Person X must be scum". BM had presented incredibly dodgy attacks on DGB and, whilst her reasoning is ambiguous (as we've come to expect <grumble>), it isn't an OMGUS.

Her reasoning doesn't exist. And no, I see OMGUS as what it is. You are attacking me. Oh My God U Suck, I'm going to vote you. Your definition of OMGUS is...not.

See my remarks at the top.

Well, whether I accept your argument that OMGUS exists or not is a rather moot point, is it not? How does this help us hunt scum?

The way DGB handled BM was scummy, whether you call it OMGUS or not.

"was scummy". HOW?! So far you've only said it was OMGUS.

How was it scummy? The only point you made was that DGB committed "OMGUS", a claim which Korts and I have shown to be patently false.

I never accepted it was false. And if you actually read my posts, you'd know my claim went beyond her committing OMGUS. I said she didn't provide reasoning for her BM vote and seemed far too assured of his scumness. Also, Yos has been defending her like mad, as well as the fact BM's entire suspicion list jumped on him the minute a bandwagon was viable. She was on it, and I feel the most scum vibes from her.

Reasoning was implicit and you never said the self-assured thing, which wouldn't be scummy even if she was.

The other thing interesting here is that you raise Yos defending her as relevant. By that stage, Yos hadn't flipped as scum and you had barely anything to say about Yos that wasn't relational to DGB. Suggests the likelihood of you trying to set DGB up.

And it's hypocrisy for you to accuse DGB of lacking reasons when you talk about "scum vibes", which is basically a euphemism for "gut".

And then we get up to where we are now, so you didn't have other reasons. You had:
1) OMGUS
2) Assured
3) No reasons

All of which are crap.

Curious about Vollkan's relatively early move against Yos in 411/423. He seems like the type to be afflicted by Stoofer's Syndrome... it's kind of odd, in that I think a bunch of people had the typical YosScum reaction of thinking it was weird but not really going after him for it; he's the only one who pressed him early in the wake of Des. Maybe there's just something specific he looked for, I don't know, but it seems out-of-place. I'm not at all wild about accusations based purely on bussing, especially since I think it's entirely possible he would have found roughly the same stance as town. But it is an oddity, and if you told me for sure that exactly one person was actively bussing Yos, he'd probably be my pick. Which is annoying, because it's the kind of environment you'd figure scum'd be bus-happy, and I think (at least from my perspective) the degree to which he was going down in flames in his debate with Des would necessitate some bussing. I feel if he is scum, though, there should be more than that independantly, which does not spring to mind. Eh.

Well, 411 explains my initial move to focus on Yos. I'd missed the fact that Yos's vote had left CKD at L-1. His answer was not based on gut, which then prompted me to go back and take a closer look, with it flowing from there (given his poor explanation). I can see how you'd get the impression of bussing, because of the suddenness of my change in view, but that's really just a combination of Des pointing out the (what should have been) obvious and Yos giving a horrible explanation for his vote.

CKD makes an interesting point that in 338, Vollkan basically agrees with his stance. But his random (?) vote is still on CKD, at 5/8 to lynch. I missed why Why?

My vote on CKD was not a random vote. I was voting CKD for the hypocrisy of accusing one person of "reaching" when allowing himself to do the same thing under the auspices of "early game scumhunting".

I don't think that the fact that I agreed with one stance of CKD's should in any way void that.

Does anyone here have a meta on Vollkan?

In respect of anything specifically?

They weren't confirmed townies. I explicitly expressed suspicion on them. The cases wouldn't have stuck; you yourself say that they weren't even contenders for a lynch. I trust my own judgement. A 1 for 2 trade is pretty fair IMO.

It's not really a "trade" though...but anyway, the kills you claim are consistent with your stated positions

OH, I only just noticed that Yos is now dead, was a mafiate, and was a Godfather.

I laid back from the game for a while because I felt I was interfering with the scum's natural flow of bus'ing. And I had noticed that some players were bus'ing Yos, but Yos did not seem scummy to me.

Chief Yos bus'er: vollkan.

unvote, vote: vollkan

How do you distinguish bussing from genuine attacking?

[DrippingGoofball]

How do you distinguish bussing from genuine attacking?

Bus'ing occurs in a relative vacuum. Sometimes the specifics are tantamount to clairvoyance. Does that help, scumbag?

[vollkan]

How do you distinguish bussing from genuine attacking?

Bus'ing occurs in a relative vacuum. Sometimes the specifics are tantamount to clairvoyance. Does that help, scumbag?

No, it doesn't. My reasons for suspecting Yos were clear, and I don't see where I could have appeared clairvoyant about him.

And what do you mean by a "relative vacuum"?

[Elmo]

The other thing interesting here is that you raise Yos defending her as relevant. By that stage, Yos hadn't flipped as scum and you had barely anything to say about Yos that wasn't relational to DGB.

This is an interesting point.

o o

DGB, the only person I would've voted would be Korts, and I didn't think it best to add another vote, since my suspicion of him was mostly day 1 stuff + inertia. I don't actually know who I want to lynch, right now. I'm aware that deadline is drawing closer, but I don't want to vote immediately.

I'd be very surprised if Des was bussing, and I'm certain RR wasn't. But I don't like a Vollkan vote on merely the basis of his interactions with Yos2; I think it's probably well within his reach to bus convincingly in a situation like that - and not only possible, but good play because he could probably take it all the way afterwards - but I cannot bring myself to vote him essentially for (on the face of it) finding scum. If he was actually bussing, there

must

be more, and I'd be interested in a comment on that from people inclined to vote him right now (DGB, rofl).

It's irritating, because I seem to keep saying X isn't strong enough, Y isn't strong enough, but I'd much rather do that than go a mile a minute in the wrong direction. I think FL is probably the person I have the weakest read on, right now... the quote above means I'm probably going to be rereading (again) Sens/her next.

A good thing to do is go back and look at any attempts by people to fish for who killed Guardian/Kison. I remember Yos2 sniffing around

something

to do with a kill, but not where or when.

I would point out that, due to the rules (which I approve of), I'll be replaced if I have to be prodded again. So I'm disabling any kind of quality control for a while (uh oh). Again, if people directed questions at me, or engaged me in Viguous Debate or whatever, that might help me to get back into the swing of things. I'm not 100%, but I seem to be past the worst of it.

[vollkan]

The other thing interesting here is that you raise Yos defending her as relevant. By that stage, Yos hadn't flipped as scum and you had barely anything to say about Yos that wasn't relational to DGB.

This is an interesting point. o o

There were a few points where he addressed Yos in a negative light (most negative being where he agreed with Des's sentiments on Yos being a non-contributor), but there was no case formed or anything that would warrant Yos's defence of DGB being seen as a scumtell at that stage.

[destructor]

Why do people think Korts is a Vig as opposed to an SK?
Doesn't a Guardian kill make more sense from an SK? If he suspected Guardian on the basis of ckd being scum, why not kill ckd and start building a case on Guardian? And Kison was going to post analysis on the ckd wagon, which, if Kison was scum, would have given scum-hunting-Korts more info to work with and find Kison's scum-buddies with. Not convinced that he suspected Yos enough to warrant Vigging, as opposed to outright killing, either.

I don't think Korts' play makes sense as a Vig. It's too careless.

[Korts]

If he suspected Guardian on the basis of ckd being scum, why not kill ckd and start building a case on Guardian?

Because it was Guardian who defended CKD, and not vice versa. CKD's alignment is not so heavily implied by that action as Guardian's.

And Kison was going to post analysis on the ckd wagon, which, if Kison was scum, would have given scum-hunting-Korts more info to work with and find Kison's scum-buddies with.

I admit I didn't take every circumstance into account.

[forbiddanlight]

As I have already said, though, this definition has no operation in relation to what DGB said.

Quite simply, bullshit

More fundamentally, though, the bit you omitted was the part by BM which showed, if it wasn't obvious just from the context, that she was voting him for a crappy accusation and not on the spurious grounds that you have raised.

Wait...are you serious? Because I didn't do the whole quote tree, and I NEVER do the whole quote tree, you are voting me? Wow. +10 to scumminess.

I'm almost willing to give up DGB for that pile of shit right there.

You probably didn't mean "scapegoat"; it certainly makes no sense. But, that's really not the point. It's that you felt the need to ratchet things up by incorporating such a word. Saying BM is a "planned mislynch" is still an unfalsifiable assertion.

Ok. And?

Again, wrong on roles. Not scummy.

nice try. I wasn't saying wrong on roles was scummy. I was saying the IIoA was. Learn to read.

Okay, so you do find this scummy. In which case, what is "IIoA"?

Wiki is your friend.

Information Instead of Analysis.

No.

Yes

The only evidence you point to here is the lack of reasons, which is crap anyway because the reasons were implicit.

Once again, implicitness does NOT EXCUSE REASONING! It never has, and never will. What may be implicit to you may not be to someone else, and further, you might have reasons beyond the purportedly obvious. This whole argument is absolute bullshit.

"was scummy". HOW?! So far you've only said it was OMGUS.

The repeated attacks from the assumption that BM was scum despite the fact that it did not seem very obvious until he made it obvious that the lie he thought he had detected was bullshit.

Ironic that despite finding crappy reasons for suspecting DGB, you still play along with crappy reasoning of DGB herself.

Well, so far, your only stances have been OMGUS doesn't exist, I shall defend DGB to death, and FL must die. That really isn't much to work with.

The other thing interesting here is that you raise Yos defending her as relevant. By that stage, Yos hadn't flipped as scum and you had barely anything to say about Yos that wasn't relational to DGB. Suggests the likelihood of you trying to set DGB up.

nice try. I also rose the point you and Korts were defending her.

Overall, that is a megapost of bullshit to paint me red by using semantic arguments as well as blatant lies

Unvote, Vote Vollkan

This is an interesting point. o o

It is until you notice I state vollkan does it too, as well as Korts.

There were a few points where he addressed Yos in a negative light (most negative being where he agreed with Des's sentiments on Yos being a non-contributor), but there was no case formed or anything that would warrant Yos's defence of DGB being seen as a scumtell at that stage.

If you assume DGB is scum, well, then it only follows.

Since Korts claimed vig, I'm calling DGB, vollkan, and Yos. After all, DGB seems to love bussing as a tell. wouldn't surprise me if she engaged in it.

[destructor]

Korts, you cut Guardian short like you did Kison. Guardian was just about to post a defence of ckd and more:

CKD is under such suspicion and likely lynch that I would like to say some things in his defense, and I have a hell of a lot more I want to say today before ckd gets hammered. I prefer short days, but I prefer that we end days when we choose to, not because we didn't realize scum could kill someone and reduce the requirements to lynch.

His request for someone to unvote was reasonable for someone who said they didn't think ckd was scum. I don't see why you would have seen this as an

insidious

defence of ckd.

Besides the defence, from what I can read, this was your case on Guardian:

Here are the things I think are scumtells of the points against Guardian:

The conflict of projected motives; Guardian's "So does it indicate nothing or does it indicate that he is SK?" question, although to very minor degree; his implication that self-voting is inherently scummy.

You had conceded on the other points, like Guardian fence-sitting.

The Kison kill is almost completely random. I can see breadcrumbs for it, but the fact that you never actually explained what gave you a gut feeling that he was scum and actually went ahead and killed on gut alone is definitely points against you. That sort of play makes much more sense as coming from an SK playing like a Vig. I would expect a town killer to be far more careful.

And you on Yos:

Meanwhile, the debate between Yos and des doesn't seem to give proof of either one being scum. Yos seems to be slightly reaching, while des seems to be extrapolating Yos's scumminess from the fact that Yos is slightly reaching.

Basically, no read on Yos.

To be honest, I haven't had the time to thoroughly go through your row. As much as I gathered, Yos starts out slightly reaching, but has a valid point in you apparently dropping much of the suspicion you had on CKD. He seems to be tunneling pretty much exclusively on you, though, and apart from an exchange with vollkan on the same topic, and the push on the obvious BM lynch, he hasn't really commented on anything else.

Still no firm stance on Yos.

I agree that forb deserves suspicion. The Yosarian-suspicion I agree with to a lesser extent.

So why didn't you kill FL? Instead you kill a player who you are less suspicious of than FL, who, from what I could tell, you were mildly suspicious of.

Similar question with Guardian. You were voting BM at the time. Why not kill BM then?

[destructor]

FL, why do you believe that Korts has claimed truthfully?
Do you think RR is town?


RR, what do you make of Korts' claim? Who else do you suspect now?

[forbiddanlight]

FL, why do you believe that Korts has claimed truthfully?

Because I like vollkan less out of the ones defending DGB. I suppose four scum is possible, but I don't see it as likely unless we have multiple scum groups.

Do you think RR is town?

I don't have much of a read on him.

So why didn't you kill FL? Instead you kill a player who you are less suspicious of than FL, who, from what I could tell, you were mildly suspicious of.

This however, is a very good point. As a vig, you should at least tentatively listen to the towns wishes. Furthermore, vigging is the best way to deal with chronic lurkers, and Sens should have been dead long ago.

[vollkan]

Why do people think Korts is a Vig as opposed to an SK?

Hmm. As I said, his kills are consistent with expressed suspicion, but I guess that's very easily fabricated. Indeed, the Guardian reasons were trashy, and there was really nothing presented at all for Kison, other than (IIRC) a mention of a "gut feeling".

Something that I think is

very important

here is Korts' stated views and intentions relating to Kison. Day 2 started at Sun Dec 07, 2008 10:55 am (my time, obv)

I quote Korts in 718 (Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:17 am):

I have this vague feeling Kison is scum. I dunno why, but I'll definitely look into this gut read properly when I have normal access (I'm currently through a proxy site right now, my brother blocked MS and the searchword "proxy" because apparently I'm spending too much time on MS...)

The death of Kison was announced Mon Dec 08, 2008 8:50 am in 754. That's just six hours later. I find it very difficult to understand why a vig would so seriously rush a kill so early in the day based on "gut", which is only reinforced by the fact that Korts, had stated an intention to read up and "look into" his gut feeling. It just doesn't make sense.

Also, given that there have only be 3 kills this whole game, I guess that for a SK in as much strife as Korts a vig claim would be fairly safe move.

As I have already said, though, this definition has no operation in relation to what DGB said.

Quite simply, bullshit

O rly?

The definition I quoted (from the wiki) was: "OMGUS stands for "Oh My God, You Suck (for voting for me)!". it is sometimes used as a shorthand to indicate that you are voting for someone primarily because they voted for you."

Since you say that I am bullshitting that the definition had no operation in relation to DGB, then I insist that you give me a full explanation on how that definition is appropriate to apply to DGB.

More fundamentally, though, the bit you omitted was the part by BM which showed, if it wasn't obvious just from the context, that she was voting him for a crappy accusation and not on the spurious grounds that you have raised.

Wait...are you serious? Because I didn't do the whole quote tree, and I NEVER do the whole quote tree, you are voting me? Wow. +10 to scumminess.
I'm almost willing to give up DGB for that pile of shit right there.

Strawman. I am not attacking you for simply omitting to do a quote tree. My point is that the quote added context to what DGB had said, making it clear she was responding to a post of BM's. You attacked the post as if DGB had supplied no reasons when, from the post itself, her reasons were manifest.

You probably didn't mean "scapegoat"; it certainly makes no sense. But, that's really not the point. It's that you felt the need to ratchet things up by incorporating such a word. Saying BM is a "planned mislynch" is still an unfalsifiable assertion.

Ok. And?

It means this point is pure conjecture and thus not worthy of consideration without a weighing up against competing possibilities.

Again, wrong on roles. Not scummy.

nice try. I wasn't saying wrong on roles was scummy. I was saying the IIoA was. Learn to read.

Okay, now I see what IIoA means. DGB's posts have been very brusque, but I don't think that's scummy for her.

Once again, implicitness does NOT EXCUSE REASONING! It never has, and never will. What may be implicit to you may not be to someone else, and further, you might have reasons beyond the purportedly obvious. This whole argument is absolute bullshit.

You say this like it is incredibly obvious and that I am stupid for not thinking it, but I really do disagree with you. There's no need to always explicitly state things, provided your meaning is clear. In this case, DGB's reasons were obvious. Rather than focussing on potential circumstances where reasons might not be obvious, how about directing your attacks to the game at hand?

(Also, being implicit can be a good way to catch out players who are trying to score cheap points and not think subtly Not mentioning names of course)

Ironic that despite finding crappy reasons for suspecting DGB, you still play along with crappy reasoning of DGB herself.

Well, so far, your only stances have been OMGUS doesn't exist, I shall defend DGB to death, and FL must die. That really isn't much to work with.

Good to see you are completely ignoring my posting record here. You're only making me more comfortable with my vote.

The other thing interesting here is that you raise Yos defending her as relevant. By that stage, Yos hadn't flipped as scum and you had barely anything to say about Yos that wasn't relational to DGB. Suggests the likelihood of you trying to set DGB up.

nice try. I also rose the point you and Korts were defending her.

I never accepted it was false. And if you actually read my posts, you'd know my claim went beyond her committing OMGUS. I said she didn't provide reasoning for her BM vote and seemed far too assured of his scumness. Also, Yos has been defending her like mad, as well as the fact BM's entire suspicion list jumped on him the minute a bandwagon was viable. She was on it, and I feel the most scum vibes from her.

Do mine eyes deceive me?! I see no mention of Korts or myself there. The only time you raised Korts and my defence of her was in the first post you made

after

Yos's death.

Since the important thing here is that you found Yos's defence of DGB as a scumtell against DGB before Yos had flipped, the fact that you later picked on Korts and me is immaterial.

[vollkan]

EBWOP: Point of clarification. The last quote by FL is the reasons he gave for suspecting DGB before Yos's death. I quote it to show he never raised Korts and/or me before Yos's death.

[Korts]

I have to apologize for my sub-par play this game.

Re: the Guardian-kill--my case wasn't enough to lynch, I give you that. Which is why I opted for vidging, instead. His defense of CKD wasn't explicit, you're right in that, des, but the urgency in his tone suggested, to me, that he really didn't want CKD lynched.

About the Kison kill, all I can say is, I had a strong gut feel, and while yes, I promised to explore it in detail, I realized that I won't have nearly enough time for it, so I decided to trust my gut. I'm sorry for that hurried decision.

On why Yos over FL; I felt that I could still avoid being outed as a power role, so I tried to disassociate myself slightly from the Yos kill by putting him as Suspect no. 2. I had been confident enough that I could handle the pressure without having to claim, but I was wrong. I guess I fucked myself over with that.

Those of you arguing that I'm an SK with those kills please take a moment to consider this: as a self-aligned role, my aim would be to survive the game; the sensible kills would've been RR or des both on Day 1 and 2, because they have kept the pressure on me constant. It's WIFOM, I guess, but the kills show that I wasn't driven by selfish motives.

[vollkan]

@Des:

Why do people think Korts is a Vig as opposed to an SK?

What stops him being mafia either? He's claimed the Yos kill, but I can't see what makes it necessarily the case that he commited it...

About the Kison kill, all I can say is, I had a strong gut feel, and while yes, I promised to explore it in detail, I realized that I won't have nearly enough time for it, so I decided to trust my gut. I'm sorry for that hurried decision.

Huh...What was the time pressure?

And,

...so I decided to trust my gut.

Those of you arguing that I'm an SK with those kills please take a moment to consider this: as a self-aligned role, my aim would be to survive the game; the sensible kills would've been RR or des both on Day 1 and 2, because they have kept the pressure on me constant. It's WIFOM, I guess, but the kills show that I wasn't driven by selfish motives.

It

is

WIFOM (and scum-Korts really has just as much selfish motivation to make kills which don't obviously benefit him as he does to make kills which do. The very fact you are making this argument now puts this into action).

And, also, what about you as group

[destructor]

Re: the Guardian-kill--my case wasn't enough to lynch, I give you that. Which is why I opted for vidging, instead. His defense of CKD wasn't explicit, you're right in that, des, but the urgency in his tone suggested, to me, that he really didn't want CKD lynched.

I actually think his defence of ckd

was

obvious, even if he never really explained it, and he hadn't seem to try to hide that at any point. What I'm not seeing is why you perceived it as scummy at all.

@Des:

Why do people think Korts is a Vig as opposed to an SK?

What stops him being mafia either? He's claimed the Yos kill, but I can't see what makes it necessarily the case that he commited it...

Well, the lack of counter-claim is the first thing I think of. I considered that he might still be Yos' scum-buddy, but that would have meant to me that the Inuit Mafia killed their Godfather or Korts is trying to flush the real Vig/SK out. If Korts is

Mafia

, I'd make much more sense that he was part of a second Mafia group, which is a possibility no one's really raised yet.