Open 888 | Welcome to Feryland! -- End!

[TimmerRC]

Hello!

This is my first game here, and I played mafia years ago on other sites. The rules are different than what I remember, and this style of "get half of the votes and you are eliminated and the day ends" is def new.

I'll be sporadic in my posting, fitting the game around a busy life

[TimmerRC]

Actually, I think I tried playing here briefly years ago, as Timmer, if any of that era still exists

[TimmerRC]

Alright, so I have questions.

I'm used to the idea of 48 hour days that end at 48 hours and never sooner, so... sorry if this sounds dense, but how does a "day" possibly last 10 calendar days? Or is it really rare for a day to go that long? What do we talk about on Day 1 for that long, lol?

Also, the idea of pressuring people with votes and then they role claim etc. That's a new dynamic for me, the bulk of my past play role claiming was never, ever allowed. So... traditionally, how does this play out? I'll have to get used to it, I was wired to consider that not a "fun" style of mafia.

And finally, I need to figure out the voting tags, so VOTE: TimmerRC

[TimmerRC]

As a Sturgill Simpson fan, I'm penciling you in as town for making me think of a great song with that post.

[TimmerRC]

Ok, my coffee hasn't kicked in yet and it took way too long to figure out that VIP is Aneninen.

[TimmerRC]

VIP did a group read on post 59. Most of their thoughts seem fine, I'm personally not willing to label individual posts as townie or scummy yet as I don't know the site meta, but the "things noticed" were indeed things to be noticed. I'm guessing that much of the tone about Gimli asking about masons is there to get a reaction response from Gimli, so I like that.

Null read overall.

In regards to Gimli, one thing I noticed was a major bit of self-awareness in posts 46 and 47. It was a "it is simply too early for trying to make cases" thing I guess but overly self-aware can sometimes be a scumread for me, so... noted.

[TimmerRC]

Regarding React Youtuber, that's such a great term for something so important! I love it. For me, it's a later game thing, periods like Day 1 simply reacting to posts is literally a must to get things going, but later game it is a huge scumread tool.

[TimmerRC]

I do find it interesting that you clearly grasp the idea of using votes to pressure people and then proceed to vote yourself. New scum players do tend to be a little scared of starting any conflicts so plays like that come across as a little people-pleasing and non-confrontational. Who's your biggest scumread right now?

As for the question though, generally speaking roleclaiming happens when someone is put at E-1 (one vote away from execution) and someone else announces an intent to hammer (cast the final executing vote) and they'll usually give a time-frame (e.g. "I'll hammer in 24 hours.") which gives the person on the gallows a chance to roleclaim so town avoids executing a PR.

I'm chuckling a bit because I just thought "oh, I should go remove that vote from myself" but then here's your post and now it would look reactionary, lol.

I'll do it anyway. UNVOTE: TimmerRC

Technically I'm only a newer player to this site's meta. It has been years since I played but back in the day I played a lot.

In terms of scumreads, the only thing I've got jotted down is that both Afrayed and Gimli seemed oddly defensive in tone in replying to people's thoughts against them considering it is all fluffy early game stuff.

[TimmerRC]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: TimmerRC

I’m not defensive at all. But I don’t like you right now.

I agree with usespython in post 100 re: kitty, she reads as a first timer who doesn't seem to have built in self-awareness yet.

I'm realizing that even if it is early and mostly based on jokey things, that making scumreadlists and using/moving votes is an expected tool here, I'm not used to voting this early at ALL. (just read to #112, vip you touch directly on this, so bear with)

Afrayed in 117 he is just very absorbed about how he is being perceived in this game and working hard to define himself for us/to suggest that we see him as he wants us to see him, which I don't love.

Dragon #125, "What do you think about usesPython and Afrayed Knott? And what do you think about Comet?" I'm not loving Afrayed at all, and frankly let's just VOTE: Afrayed while I'm sitting on this vibe. I'll get back to you on the other two in a minute, I'm still getting used to reading a game that moves like this, keeping organized is an effing challenge, lol.

[TimmerRC]

comet: #98 Yes I'm going to marinate on my thoughts a while we are only barely 24 hours into the game and 6 pages. I do have some gut feelings about some players but that's all they are at this moment.

I'm new, I don't have thought processes yet... I have gut feelings but those aren't based in any kind of fact, We have like 9 days to go before a decision really needs to be made.

Who are your gut feelings about?

[TimmerRC]

re: python and comet, they both seem to be... playing? Sorry, I'm essentially null on virtually everyone at this point with Afrayed's self-aware chatter being a minor exception.

[TimmerRC]

I'm glad to see the game has slowed down a bit, I'm struggling to sort it out. @Dragon, how did your catch up go, it sounded like there would be thoughts, yet there are no thoughts.

[TimmerRC]

Going to work to catch up on this tomorrow, sorry, long day of work and Canadian thanksgiving.

[TimmerRC]

That was intense, can someone explain the purpose of feigning a elim?

[TimmerRC]

I'm so sorry, everyone. This game is completely overwhelming my brain and when I do manage to log in I just kind of skim the pages. This is massively different than what I'm used to, and some of you post so much that I am just lost.

[TimmerRC]

I have no reads, no vibes, no idea about anything. Page 21 is generally day 5 for the games I used to play, this is just overwhelming.

[TimmerRC]

My problem is that my traditional scum-hunting route is to ignore day 1, which is usually fluff, and wait for an elim, which in my mafia world usually was within the first 48 hours. Once that happened and then a night 1 death went through or didn't, I would start to analyze how people talked to each other, how they voted and most importantly when, and in what order. I'd look to find where the scum were hidden in voting patterns etc.

But this game so far, I don't see how I can really provide a read yet, because everything that everyone is saying is completely plausible as both town and scum, if they are good players. A good player can EASILY be scum and post pro-townie, ESPECIALLY on day 1. So when you guys are asking me for my thoguhts, I have none because I've got NOTHING that feels truly scummy to point to. Any of the posts made in this game up to now could easily be either alignment.

[TimmerRC]

Quick follow up to my earlier post about being overwhelmed... I had signed up for this thinking it was in a way a newbie game, which to my mind meant it would be a bit more low key, is.... this... what is considered simple and straightforward on this site, lol?

Like, the level of posting and the sheer amount of words in what is essentially nothing? Is this a quieter game by the site's standards?

[TimmerRC]

UNVOTE:

Removing my vote on afrayed as at this point I have no bearing on him.

This evening I will dedicate a solid hour to trying to piece some thoughts together

[TimmerRC]

Quick follow up to my earlier post about being overwhelmed... I had signed up for this thinking it was in a way a newbie game, which to my mind meant it would be a bit more low key, is.... this... what is considered simple and straightforward on this site, lol?

Like, the level of posting and the sheer amount of words in what is essentially nothing? Is this a quieter game by the site's standards?

Day 1 in micros tend to be 20-50 pages long depending on the playerlist

-A

Okay, good to know. I'm feeling smothered, lol. But, it just means taking a step back and reframing the reality of the game in my head and then re engaging, so tonight I'll begin that, I have no interest in bowing out.

[TimmerRC]

I'm probably going to drop it for now though because I feel like my last 10 posts on the matter have just been me repeating and rephrasing myself and there doesn't seem to be much support for it right now. I wish I could see the strong town vibes from Knott's posts that others seem to see - I'm just not getting it.

Moving onto the Timmer wagon that follows, arghhhhh... Timmer's still in my limpool but at the same time there's this vibe with him that he's the classic newbie!town who gets executed day 1 for not conforming/fitting into the gameplay as well as others. Yeah he's not posted much and when he does post there's not much to it so for that alone I don't think a lim on him is *awful* but... I dunno. I think if it comes to like the final three days and we're settling on a lim I'd be okay with it but I don't think he's scummy enough for me to be actively pushing at this point.

Now Timmer if you could post more and give me a reason to either more firmly townread you or scumread you, then that'd be awesome.

That's the plan, I'm going to work on the game this evening after work !

[TimmerRC]

Okay, so my bread and butter when we are in an early part of the game is looking for inconsistency in people's gameplay, especially surrounding votes and timing of votes. Normally by now I' be in day 3 or so and I've had a lot more to work with but I'm adapting!

So looking at the votes so far in the game, I'm curious to ask about a few shifts in patterns.

@python, you were vote-crazy in the early stage of the game, 10 of the first 31 votes were from you, 32% of them. And you were placing votes consistently through your posts, never making more than 9 posts between voting changes. But then you pulled back from voting, it seems.

From the moment you voted VIP (for real, not the hammer gambit), you made 30 posts in the game before moving your vote to me, and since that point you've made 15 posts without moving it again. And only one of the last 20 votes (5%) in the game was from you.

Are you moving away from RVS?


@Dragon, you are a different story.

You weren't quite as vote-crazy early on, making only 4 of the first 31 votes (12.5%), but you've made 8 of the last 20 in the game (40%).

In fact in those 20 votes, no one else has made more than 2. And of those 8 votes, 7 of 8 were votes for people who already had votes against them. Please double check this, but:
- you voted Kittie when VIP's vote was on them,
- VIP when black and python were on them,
- back to kittie, same scenario,
- on Black, a vote that i think was the only one on him but it lasted only one post of yours, and then...
- on yourself(!) when VIP was on you,
- then Gimli when Knott and Python were,
- Knott when Comet and I were on them,
- on me when Knott and Python were on me...

From what I can see your only vote in that streak that was an original vote was your vote for Black, and you changed that vote in your very next post, self-voting instead.

So my question for you is why are you making so many votes than everyone else in this stage of the game, but only 1 of them is an "original" vote that wasn't following an established lead, and that lasted all of 1 post of yours?

Since we use votes to show where we're at, i'll VOTE: Dragon

[TimmerRC]

I still haven't caught up, and I am not sure when I will have time to fully catch up (I do intend to do ot as soon as I can),

Considering that i just found that you are basically voting more than the rest of the game combined right now, I would say that you are posting a ton and know very well where the game is at? You are def my top scumread at the moment.

[TimmerRC]

That'll do it for me for this evening, that was an hour and a half of studying vote patterns and my eyes are falling out, goodnight!

[TimmerRC]

So you think the more votes someone throws down then they are scum, is that your bottom line?

If someone is voting a ton, but always for people who already have votes, it pings me big time.

And if someone votes as much as they have and then says they are trying to catch up, it makes no sense to me.

Lots of votes with original thoughts = town

Lots of votes on other people's work = scum

[TimmerRC]

@

Black

- I didn’t vote for Commet as there was nothing moving on her, and then one of my other lim listers stared to role so I jumped on it. I voted for VIP to put a little pressure on as the game was IS going slowly. Nothing but big walls and lurkers, until now. seems the lurkers have awoken

Not voting your main scumread because no one else is voting them seems weird. I can understand this if it were later in the Day closer to the deadline but what is the point of not voting there this early in the game?

So you think the more votes someone throws down then they are scum, is that your bottom line?

If someone is voting a ton, but always for people who already have votes, it pings me big time.

And if someone votes as much as they have and then says they are trying to catch up, it makes no sense to me.

Lots of votes with original thoughts = town

Lots of votes on other people's work = scum

I actually agree with this somewhat. This isn't always the case but I think scum are way more likely to have unoriginal thoughts and votes

Yeah, they tend to be blendy. Like someone else starts something and they say "yeah!" And vote with it. But they never take any stand of their own.

I'm still trying to learn the vibe here but that's the kind of thing I looked for where I used to play.

[TimmerRC]

Timmer, 561. Are you trying to read players on the basis of the number of their votes and their position on a wagon? I may know less than most others how Mafia's being played here, but I don't think it's a good idea. The latter part, the position, is not entierly bad, but I think it's much more complicated than launching/joining. The first part is something I've never found informative. How often a player moves their vote tells more about their general playstyle than about their alignment.

Well you have over 5k posts on the site, so I'd say you prob know how mafia is played here?

And yes, it's the positioning of the votes, and their tendency to always be a second or third vote on someone that caught my eye the most. When the games most frequent voter, which dragon is, never starts anything of their own, except for one lone time and they literally pull back from it one post later, I feel it needs to be pointed out.

In contrast, pythons vote clearly showed a transition from rvs to true hunting and that gives me a townie read on them.

[TimmerRC]

My breaks over and playing on a phone sucks, but I'll shout out that it is immensely frustrating to have multiple people in the game be like "timmer let's hear some thoughts" and the instant I provide thoughts Knott is like "this is contrived he's scum".

I don't think it says Knott is scum necessarily, just pointing out that for a player struggling to keep up, that shit is demoralizing.

[TimmerRC]

Right now in the game I feel comfortable with python and kittie being town. Pythons shift in game play from rvs to Elim hunt feels right to me, and full disclosure I haven't had a ton of time to study kitties posts, many of them are novels, but it's clear she is actively trying to play and I don't tend to see that in newbie scums.

Afrayed and dragon would be on the scummier end of a list of I made one.

Everyone else is a blank in my head so this evening my plan is to give players like black, gimli etc some study.

[TimmerRC]

[quote=usesPython post_id=13945933 post_num=616 time=1697061620 user_id=36963

I disagree, I think you can slot newbies within a few specific archetypes and read them pretty accurately

-A
[/quote]

I agree with this for a true newbie, in the absence of experience and nuance there are definitely a few classic mistakes or styles you can look for. In the case of myself, I'm not new to mafia, I'm only new to the site's gameplay format, years ago I played dozens of games on revolutionmafia, the syndicate, epicmafia, a few others. So I've been quietly bristling(?) at Dragon's attempts to pigeonhole me into a comparison with some other player in some other game, as it is something I can't even defend against. And it feels a bit scummy to try to wrap a label around a player, as if you succeed at it, literally everything that player says from that moment forward would seem corrupted and if you wrong, which he is, you've thrown a wrench into town's play. If I recall correctly, I think he tried to label kittie as well.

[TimmerRC]

Oops, lost a bracket, there.

[TimmerRC]

What does "pocket someone" mean? I've been struggling with that one all game.

[TimmerRC]

Perfect, thank you, Python.

I just finished an iso of Black. So my read of Black is that she follows the game and adapts her opinion of players as the game evolves.

For instance, she has gone from liking python's reads, to feeling like the "hammer" showed a bad vote from python (before realizing that it was all fake), then voted python after gimli gave thoughts they liked about them, then had a bit of a back and forth with python.

She seems focused on breaking down her thoughts on people once she puts them on her focus list, and I like that. Her opinions on Python, me, VIP and Dragon have all evolved over time.

The only thing I found odd, and I would love to hear thoughts from Black on this, is that arguably the player she has been consistently negative towards is Gimli, yet Gimli has never received a vote from Black.

[TimmerRC]

I'm not sure how you can read my whole ISO and come to the conclusion that I have been consistently negative towards Gimli

#295 & 302 & 311 & 313 sums up a position where you didn't really trust Gimli's interactions with the fake hammer.

You briefly follow a Gimli vote lead on python in 513/516 but then 606 you say Gimli is pocketing someone and in 613 mention that you are considering a vote their way.

IT's a fair bit of "i don't trust you" from you to them. What I found odd was the lack of a corresponding vote anywhere, but looking at my vote timeline chart thingy i made, you actually aren't very vote-y at all so it's not exactly a ping. I really just wanted to hear you elaborate on where you are at re: Gimli.

[TimmerRC]

Speaking of Gimli... I just read their ISO and my eyes are bleeding.

I'm kinda zoned out of this game and don't remember anything anymore sorry

I think this is a gamestate in which town loses the majority of the time btw

So if gimli is town here, he knows he's not trying to change things and he's being lazy. But if he's bad, would he need to care?

UNVOTE: VIP

what

The reaction to the fake hammer is interesting... I'm trying to think it through from their pov, and I'm struggling to find anything townie about it. It was clearly a gut reaction to thinking that the day had just spontaneously crashed to a close with an elim, but I feel like there is a stronger likelihood that such a move "I better pull out of that omg" would be made from a scum. Even if technically it makes no sense, a knee jerk reaction like that would be more likely from a baddie, I think as they are so acutely aware of how their votes can be evidence.

VIP was never near hammer and my surprise was that I initially thought people thought VIP was hammered

I unvoted cause I thought for a second it was L-1 and not python trolling (don't wanna put anyone in L-1)

This just doesn't even make sense. And Gimli knows it, see their subsequent "just kill me" posts.

And then we enter a brief phase where Gimli tries to provide some content with posts like this:

I feel like python is playing a

good

game. solid stances, some thread control, relaxed and witty. A good game, but considering how what happened to timmer is what happened with every other LHF probable townie in the game (afrayed knott seems legitimate, so does kitty, for instance), then that means the scum, at least one of them, is doing exactly what python is doing. there are no scummy people left, so we have to look at who looks towny but doesnt

feel

very towny at all.

But it's just talking. It's talking about players from a remove. I think Gimli is bad.

[TimmerRC]

VOTE: Gimli

Please double check this, but I believe that would be E-2?

[TimmerRC]

idk how I feel about Tim going from

to actually being active and useful

I have no idea wtf in supposed to say to this. This is the same bullshit I got from Afrayed. So I'll go back to saying nothing, this site is infuriating.

[TimmerRC]

I'm not a huge fan of him sneaking a vote in on Gimli after I expressed that I wouldn't mind voting there

I made a breakdown of my thoughts on gimli after reading his iso which I said I would do last night. And that post took awhile to write and study up on. You made your post while I was writing mine.

But again, I'll just go back to shutting up, this site seems to not allow people to try to play after having a rough start.

[TimmerRC]

I would like it if you tried to not get so defensive about people calling out inconsistencies in your play. You can't just throw a fit every time someone does this

I agree that the timestamps indicate you were writing your Gimli post as I was writing mine. I didn't have an issue with that post. It was the vote 3 minutes later that I thought could have been influenced by me saying I'm willing to vote therr

I apologize, it is something that always has bothered me about mafia. Someone says they are either lost or overwhelmed and everyone says they should try more and they do and then everyone says wait, what's this?

It isn't a good route to find scum, imo, people being active is what we want, no? This is literally the first day off from work I've had since the game started.

As to your post, I absolutely saw it, but I'm also adjusting to the vote method here and I feel like we must be getting to the point where we need to truly pressure someone? This is day 8 of 10. If we wait until day 9.5 to pressure someone and they claim a power role or something, I can see us scrambling and that will lead to disaster.

So at this point, I am expecting people to start following up their scum reads with votes which is why I did that. If my vibe on that is off, please explain how as I don't want to misunderstand the style here. But waiting until day 9 or 9.5 as a policy doesn't seem very smart to me.

[TimmerRC]

Also, I got the sense that I just made a breakdown of thoughts on Gimli and the people who payed since the aren't bothering to respond to my thoughts on it, instead taking about how I've changed. So it felt a bit like I wasted my morning *shrug*

[TimmerRC]

Forgive my ignorance, what is AtE?

[TimmerRC]

I mean I like the posts it's just that it feels kinda coached when 507 exists. We don't actually feel strongly enough about it to go there today though and actually do wanna see you post more like this

-A

I'm trying to adapt, this might be the first time I've ever tried to truly find a scum in a day 1, lol.

But why would it require coaching? An iso is an iso, just because I am used to making them starting on a day 2 doesn't mean a day 1 attempt needs guidance.

[TimmerRC]

Forgive my ignorance, what is AtE?

Appeal to Emotion

Ahh... I will work to tone it down, but I AM an emotional guy and I get quite passionate about things once I invest in them. this will be a fluff thing to say, but a common tell years ago when I was bad was that I was unemotional because I struggled to fake it.

[TimmerRC]

UNVOTE:

I’m sorry, but does no one else see what I see. Black, Timmer and either VIP or Gimli?

That’s my scum, now.

VOTE: Timmer

So both Gimli and I are at 3 votes and you vote this bluntly without explanation and without mentioning it is e-1?

[TimmerRC]

Look at my earlier post about the possible relationship between Black and Timmer, then read the recent interaction between the two. It stinks of a pre planned effort to engage Tim and deflect attention, with some clever positioning by Black.

Thats what I’m seeing

Do you mean the content from 22 posts ago of yours? You've had 22 posts since then where you talked about other things, but suddenly Gimli and I are each at 3 and you are back to that with a vengeance?

If Gimli flips scum, Afrayed is his teammate, this is sloppy

[TimmerRC]

Gimli, you obviously have a bunch of votes on you, maybe now would be a time to defend yourself? What are your thoughts on things?

[TimmerRC]

And careful Afrayed, it sort of looks like you and gimli are... having a preplanned conversation, there.

[TimmerRC]

And careful Afrayed, it sort of looks like you and gimli are... having a preplanned conversation, there.

lolol yeah youre definitely a townie

Obviously probably maybe definitely?

[TimmerRC]

let me think

I think black is a townie and as I said before I understand her scumread on me, and I like her posting otherwise, so I think all is fine in that area

I think DE is making a whole lot of nonsense lately and I'm starting to think that hits scum

you're obviously probably maybe a townie

comet is always town and if she is scum or regardless she is my favorite poster this game

afrayed knott is not someone i can agree or read or talk to lol so thats that, maybe a townie maybe a scummie who knows

kittiesecret is fake and maybe scum

What do you think of Afrayed apparently thinking 3 of 9 of us were bad? Legit? Made up?

[TimmerRC]

Now THIS feels like fucking mafia.

[TimmerRC]

If I had a nickle for every time I had to pause and check votes to see if Python just hammered...

Lol I was about to go count

[TimmerRC]

Afrayed is probably town for thinking there's 3 scum

Damn it.

I actually think this is an annoyingly good point.

It is. Feigning that convincingly would be a hell of a gambit.

[TimmerRC]

I feel Black and Timmer for definite. And then one of you or Gimli

But then why would a townie be *this* confident!? Arghhhhh

No one should be that confident at this stage, so for me it's alignment neutral. Prob just blindering.

[TimmerRC]

VOTE: Black

Are you voting Black for not voting for Gimli because you think Gimli is scum? Shouldn't you be voting Gimli to confirm if he's scum before then going on Black?

Interested in the answer to this.

[TimmerRC]

Have you caught up yet…. Keep reading

/dead.

I'm now starting to wonder if the connection I saw between gimli and afrayed was bang on and knott is now just going YOLO to distract, lol.

[TimmerRC]

I really want to swear at you, but your good

If it will calm you, I feel like you are likely townie, you are just... a bit erratic over the last little while. But if you are bad, your posts have been a pure performance and I will applaud you at game's end.

[TimmerRC]

Since then things have changed and I think I'm ok leaving Gimli around to get his footing in the game. If he's town then I think he'll be useful once he's able to do so

VOTE: DE70

Can you go a bit more into what exactly has changed? I feel like I (and at least one other player, I forget who) have noted that you talked up being sus of gimli but never put your vote where your posts were. And here at gimli e-1 you did this. So what exactly makes you suddenly feel like gimli is ok? I ask because something i watch for (and it is more helpful once some players' alignments are known) is players who talk sus about someone but never commit to it and leave off of it as soon as that player is in heat.

[TimmerRC]

Okay but it seems the current top wagon is on Gimli if I've read the votes correctly?

I think Gimli frankly hasn't done much for himself here and I wish I could see some proper defence from him but I gotta be honest I'm still not seeing it. Has he been a little lurky? Yeah. Has he sheeped? Yeah. But I can 100% see a town!Gimli doing exactly that. If there's any other arguments for Gimli scum then yell em at me.

The reason I see Gimli as town is because A: vibes (sue me), B: the posts pointing out gamestate, C: a trickey pit of WIFOM where frankly wouldn't scum!Gimli have been putting a bit more effort into this wagon forming on him? It's not come out of nowhere - I'm pretty sure the last five IRL days have had people pointing out that he's been inactive and following other people rather than doing his own pushes, he's had more than enough opportunity to reverse that exactly like Timmer has... so why wouldn't he? Continuing with your playstyle even if it causes suspicion has always been a townie thing to me when I've seen it... and I feel that with him.

I def have Gimli on the scummier end of the spectrum, but it's Day 1, there's only so much to work with. What do you think of his kneejerk attempt to unvote out of a perceived elim?

[TimmerRC]

Deadline is approaching and we've got the weekend coming up so activity for a few people here might be sporadic. I'm worried if we don't have some consensus on the lim here then we're not going to have enough time to handle potential roleclaim shenanigans if they arise.

The roleclaiming thing is new for me, how does it generally go down?

[TimmerRC]

Ok as soon as I say that I see this post

This feels more performative than the others. Like why even include the bolded part? It feels like a summary of the gamestate in the eyes of an Afrayed that is caught up but is pretending to not be caught up, if that makes sense. If Afrayed is scum then I think he noticed the townreads based off of his 3-person mafia play and is leaning into that whole "I'm not sure what's going on" thing. I still think he's probably town though

It's definitely all potentially a YOLO move, but if it is, its well done.

[TimmerRC]

Oh shit we're back! My phone is almost dead, I'll jump back in asap!

[TimmerRC]

I need more time to get my teeth into this day, please don't lim anyone, I'll be better able to read up tonight.

[TimmerRC]

OMG, I'm so sorry guys, life has been busy over here and I feel like i need a restart on how im viewing this game with two new players? That disrupts my head big time. But I'm home and reading up now.

[TimmerRC]

Just read pages 37/38. Welcome Dann!

These pages are not very useful to me, chatter about past games just isn't something I can use. I can barely keep up with my own game, I certainly don't have time to go read another one, and even if I did, a good scum can easily point to a playstyle someone used in a certain alignment and find ways to cherrypick posts to try to suggest a similar alignment here. It's null for me. Moving on.

Quick vibestate at this point. Afrayed mentioned on one of those pages that Gimli's downfall was their lack of engagement with the game, and this certainly contributed and may have been exploited by the scum. I can see exploiting that fact working in either of two essentially opposite ways; if scum guessed that a limp Gimli would prob get town-limmed without their help they could have kept their attention elsewhere. or, they could have just as likely given nudges to keep our attention on them. I don't like that both options are equally plausible.

[TimmerRC]

Ok, caught up.

This is a fucking challenging spot.

I feel like the things people are dwelling on the most are things that aren't very fruitful in general, but I can also see that it's kind of all we've got.

Kittie is barely here. An experienced player knows that being scum and simply quiet-coasting is kind of lame, but a new player may not realize that, so she's hard to call.

Afrayed has had a stubborn "no i'm right and you are wrong" Pingu arms crossed meme thing all game and it is dense and convoluted. I lean towards self-blindered town for them but the style of posting is brutal to read alignment into.

Dragon and now Dann are discussing past games as mafia histories to show that they are town, and I just can't trust that and it is taking up too much space in my brain. Dragon also is discussing being performative but a good mafia player can use their playstyle in any alignment so that's null.

And VIP has changed into Merlyn, so welcome, but that will doubtless reset them in my head.

About the only person I feel I have clarity on is Comet, who just feels townie to me.

[TimmerRC]

Do you have a read on Dragon, Timmer?

The biggest thing I can point to with Dragon is that they have 184 posts, but I think I can count the number of times they actively promoted an original thought on one hand. It's a lot of talking, a lot of replying, a ton of votes, a TON of referencing past games which is useless to players in my position. I wouldn't be stunned at all if they were bad.

[TimmerRC]

Your case against kittie is that in past games you've sometimes seen new scum post the way she posts. That's basically it. You've referenced past games so many times in this game, but what can any of us do with that?

[TimmerRC]

Actually you know what, I have a gut feeling Kittie is scum.

Her hedginess, indecisive newbiness, and cutesy innocence and towniness are things that I've seen newer scum players wielding with much effectiveness in the past.

Dannflor is right - I think that if Black was scum, she would be pushing things much more aggressively this game. And that orobably applies to all the veteran players.

And I actually think that from reading the game state, it makes a lot of sense that scum haven't been very aggressive this game, and that instead they laid low and let town tear each other apart. I already had a game like that in the newbie queue, where I locked three other townies as town on Day 1, and then eliminated two of them on Day 1 and Day 2 because they were just 1v1'ing each other while the scum hedged on the sidelines.

I think if you view it in this light, then this game makes a lot more sense.

VOTE: kittie

Is this not the crux of your kittie case? How is that not exactly what I just said?

[TimmerRC]

VOTE: dragon

[TimmerRC]

I believe that's E-1.

[TimmerRC]

What????

No, I keep track of votes on a damn spreadsheet, there's an error in the last mod post. Dann has not voted for anyone yet in the game, you are at e-1.

[TimmerRC]

I double checked their posts, they have NOT voted for you.

[TimmerRC]

I double checked their posts, they have NOT voted for you.

Black voted for him though and Dann (her replacement) never formally unvoted. The vote doesn't go away upon replacement.

Ffs. Where I played years ago there was a basic rule that if you replaced out your vote was instantly annulled. How can someone get limmed with a replaced out vote??

[TimmerRC]

I am sorry, I just had never heard of that, this is completely on me. There's nothing about it in the site rules that I can see, in hindsight, I should have asked first.

[TimmerRC]

That sounds like these were nicer times back then

Different site.

[TimmerRC]

This is on me, not you.

[TimmerRC]

You weren't making sense at all and seemed argumentative, so putting you to e-1 and showing where I stand on you seemed like the right move. I expected it to lead to everyone giving your posts a good look and potentially a claim.

[TimmerRC]

But since we're here:
Timmer, do you mind explaining the thought process of voting me right after you asked that question?

Like, you said I wasn't understanding your case, I found the post where you literally stated your case on kittie and quoted it back to you and you said that I was wrong and not reading.

[TimmerRC]

It's me. Hi. I'm your town jailkeeper,, it's me.

So what is the angle for discussing my NA?

FWIW, I am neutral on the person I kept and can't really decide if I blocked them or protected them.

Also im running a fever and can battling type on my phone. I will be back in the morning, please advise,!

[TimmerRC]

Morning!

I'm in bed with a nasty fever, so... do I reveal who I kept?

[TimmerRC]

ok, i'll sit tight.

I'll happily fall back asleep.

[TimmerRC]

Nope nope nope nope you cannot be JK

VOTE: TimmerRC

I'll claim if I have to, but it's not possible

LOL. Considering that you are who I jailkept, I'm not surprised by this.

[TimmerRC]

Nope nope nope nope you cannot be JK

VOTE: TimmerRC

I'll claim if I have to, but it's not possible

Claim.

[TimmerRC]

I looked at who was left in the game.

Comet seemed town. I have a hunch on Afrayed that they are town.

Black/Dannflor had a decent chance of being bad, but if they were good, there was no way they would get night killed.

Kittie is a complete question mark but was under a lot of scrutiny so if they are town they would not get killed.

But Merlyn... Merlyn subbed in and didnt really do much and it felt like he was letting us kill each other. But, with the number of players left, they COULD be good. So I gave them a 50/50 chance of either being bad or targeted for a kill.

No one was going to kill me, I've been taking too many votes.

[TimmerRC]

I think you're town fwiw - does there being 4 townie on VIP/Merlyn's slot fake hammer wagon make Merlyn look worse or better to you? Or no indication either way?

Is this to me?

That fakehammer was just odd to me, obviously it must be a gambit people do here. But having never seen it happen, I don't know how to interpret it at all.

[TimmerRC]

lol yes and i have a fever, but i'm functioning ok.

[TimmerRC]

Not that it matters much really, but I jailkept Comet on night 1.

[TimmerRC]

Oi! I was off to bed. But why?

They were the most clearly townie player in the game imo, I thought they had the best chance of being targeted for a kill.

[TimmerRC]

And at the time i had absolutely no vibe on who the scum could be so it made most sense to act as a protect, not a rb.

[TimmerRC]

Okay. Pigeon invested python. I investigated Knott, who is town.

So you are claiming cop?

Let me see how this works... you wouldn't claim that if there's a tracker, or a friendly neighbour, so we must be in the jailkeeper only game and you can claim whatever you want because there is no other PR to counter you. And your plan is to say that we are in the cop only game. Nicely done, it is literally your only option.

[TimmerRC]

Except that the kill failed, and there is no way that can happen in a cop only game.

[TimmerRC]

Unless your plan is to say that the mafia just... forgot?

VOTE: Merlyn, obviously.

And I apologize, I forgot to check your pronouns.

[TimmerRC]

The only checking on the NewD3 list I've done is to see if what you claimed could exist with mine, and it can't. That's all I needed to know. I'm assuming you no killed last night in order to set this up.

Of course. But let's walk through this.

You are claiming that I skipped a kill to "set this up".

And you are claiming cop.

So if you are a cop, there's 2 possibilities. One, there is also a town doctor. Or two, there is no other power role. Let's break each one down.

If you are a cop and there is a doctor, I would know that there were 2 town PR's because in that scenario my team would have a mafia roleblocker. And every scenario where the mafia has a RB, there are 2 town PRs. So it would be suicide for me to claim jailkeeper unprovoked when anything I said to you would be refuted by another town PR showing up and supporting you (which of course has not happened). Either the real jailkeeper would speak up, or the cop and a doctor would bolster their claim, or 2 masons would speak up. But that hasn't happened

So let's look at the other scenario.

MAfia is 2 goons. Ther eis either a cop, a jailkeeper, or two masons.

Here again, it would be absolute suicide for me to claim jailkeeper. There is a 3 out of 3 chance that i would get refuted.

So why.... WHY, would I withhold a kill to set this up and it couldn't work?

[TimmerRC]

Could you touch on what I actually said? How would either withholding a kill or me coming out with a suicidal claim make sense?

Compared to... you are lying.

[TimmerRC]

So way I see it there are two options here:

If Timmer scum then Merlyn is cop and scumteam of Timmer/??? deliberately chose not to night kill.

If Merlyn scum then Timmer is indeed the jailkeeper who jailkept Merlyn and likely stopped her from killing (there is still a world though where scumteam Merlyn/??? chose not to night-kill).

The question I suppose comes down to do you think it's more likely that scum deliberately no-killed to cast suspicion or do you think mafia was blocked from killing via Jailkeeper.

Deliberately chose not to nightkill and then revealed a roleclaim unprovoked that would be immediately contested if it were false.

[TimmerRC]

I'm not really getting much out of watching merlyn and timmer yell at each other

Is that what you would call that?

[TimmerRC]

Well, I would point to Occam's Razor on this one. That is a very convoluted, ballsy, yolo plan to execute, right down to revealing my fake claim and literally stepping away from it ask how i should proceed, it would ALL be a complete act. Or, i'm the jailkeeper and i stopped the kill.

[TimmerRC]

Kittie mentioned something that had been a hunch of mine as well, that Afrayed was a friendly neighbour. @Afrayed, if you happen to be a FN, now would be the time to say so since there's no FN /cop combo possible and it would bolster my claim.

[TimmerRC]

Apologies if I missed it Merlyn, but have you said who you think Timmer's scumpartner is?

Same to you Timmer - if Merlyn is scum then who's the scumpartner?

I've been going over this for awhile now. Not about who I think it is, but whether it makes sense to answer you. This is me talking my way through it.

While I played mafia for years this is almost definitely the only game i've ever been in where I'm apparently the only townie with a power role.

I know when the lim happens that one way or the other you will all know what I and the 2 scum know, which is that I am telling the truth. If I'm not limmed, I will then have to try to stop another night kill. So does it actually make sense for me to answer this? Does it gives out information for free?

If I list who I think the scum partner is and I'm wrong, they will assume I'm jailkeeping that person, and they will kill me knowing I mistargeted. They have to know the only solution I have is to block them, not to try to protect someone, because if I try to protect they will just kill me (I'm assuming a jailkeeper can't self-jail anyway, that would be a weird paradox thing). So by that rationale, they will target me either way, they would be foolish not to. If I mistarget, they kill me. If I name the partner correctly and target them, their kill fails.

But what I'm stuck on, is if I name who I think the partner is publicly, and I'm WRONG, they can then withhold a kill in the night banking on me blocking that player an then us all voting a townie the next day.

So where is the most benefit to the town? If no kill happens, do we then know I was right? Or was my information abused? If I die in the night, would me saying who i thought was the partner help? Or hinder?

[TimmerRC]

I do have a very strong suspicion about who the other scum is, but I am terrified of that information being used against the town's chances if I'm wrong so I ened advice here.

[TimmerRC]

What... was that.

[TimmerRC]

Woohoo!

So I jailed dannflor last night.

[TimmerRC]

My thoughts were thus:

If kittie was scum, she would target Comet or Afrayed.

If Afrayed was scum, they would target Comet.

If Comet was scum, they would target Afrayed.

If Dannflor was scum, they would target Afrayed or Comet.

So trying to guess the target, to protect them, seemed useless and at best a 50/50 chance. But the one person I just couldn't see anyone killing because they just weren't established as "prob town" by anyone... was dannflor.

And dannflor subbed in and left their vote in place even after Dragon self-voted which in hindsight was seriously scummy.

So here we are.

I will be voting dannflor.

[TimmerRC]

kinda expected that tbh

And dann is already trying to work the room ^.

BUT... this is not foolproof, so I would ask for people to not blindly follow my jailkeep as a proof and do a quickvote, we need to hash this out.

[TimmerRC]

HI, so I want to ask Timmer if your crumbed your role at anytime D1? I don’t think you did.

I did not.

[TimmerRC]

the problem is scum in afrayed or kittie's position do benefit quite a lot from no killing especially given looking back i think it's pretty obvious who timmer was going to target?

I don't feel like I had come after you in any real way, how was it obvious?

[TimmerRC]

but I am town

scum did intentionally no kill

I think I can figure out who needed to do that to get to end game

my gut instinct still says afrayed but i'd like a little bit of time to be sure of that

Why do you assume a no kill and not even consider the possibility that they targeted you but it failed because I protected you?

[TimmerRC]

Judging from no death last night we have town jail keeper right

Interesting - this is you having read basically none of the thread right? Given you're asking if there's a jailkeeper.

Why wouldn't you be considering a potential doctor here? That would also stop a night kill.

Very good question.

[TimmerRC]

And your predecessor sure jumped on the chance to vote Dann quickly, didn't really seem to care about breaking things down at all.

Would you please unvote?

[TimmerRC]

Wheme, I'm not loving your hyperfocus on only one possible reality, here. And not removing your predecessor's vote isn't a good look.

However, if dann were town I feel like he'd be arguing and defending a bit more, so I'm inclined to agree that dann is the vote here.

[TimmerRC]

So if Dann will presumably vote Wheme/Afrayed and Wheme/Afrayed will continue to vote dann it comes down to the rest of us.

@Comet
@Kittie

Where are you guys leaning on things?

If we lim one of Wheme/Dann and we are wrong, do you believe the remaining baddie is the other?

[TimmerRC]

Yeah, at this point I believe that a dann lim is unavoidable and as you say Comet, it's a decent 50/50 chance to succeed.

This is notice that I will hammer within 4 hours if no one else gets there first.

[TimmerRC]

Alright, I take back my intent to hammer, this just isn't sounding like a scum who knows they are going down...

How would people feel about reversing course and looking at afrayed/wheme?

[TimmerRC]

If we lim wheme and they are town, I would jailkeep kittie.

[TimmerRC]

@dann and wheme how sure are you guys on Comet?

[TimmerRC]

Huh

Just trying to have things fully fleshed out.

VOTE: Wheme, because I can't decide between the two anymore but my gut is saying this might be the way.

[TimmerRC]

Gah... okay let's do this. I will be moving my vote to Dann in a few hours.

[TimmerRC]

Timmmer why do you think scum No killed?

This is the kind of post that has me looking at you side eye... why do you know the scum no killed? Why can't Dann be bad and tried to kill but I blocked it?

[TimmerRC]

VOTE: dannflor

[TimmerRC]

good luck town

Is you are town why tf did you self vote? These self votes are killing us.

[TimmerRC]

Thanks, guys! That was a fun return to mafia for me!

[TimmerRC]

I'll admit that day 1 threw me for a loop, lol, I was completely unable to get involved properly, but once it came time for night actions I was def more in my element, I love putting on the "if I'm bad, who am I targeting" hat, lol...

But dann your play at the end was so noncommittal that it had me quite thrown, I started second guessing everything and even started to wonder if Comet was quietly coasting through this game as scum. Well played considering the corner you were in!