Veiled Committee Mafia: List Mods Edition [game over]

[camelCasedSnivy]

like lim them if they dont comply

[AniX]

I'd be ok with no lim, since it is the limited case where we can lock DragonEater into using his cop ability.

I disagree. We have no protectives, so I'll just get killed and we wouldn't have achieved anything.

Presuming you are telling the truth, even if you do die, forcing the Mafia to waste a kill on a role that is only useful under very specific circumstances is a win in my book.

So? Putting the mafia into a position where they either need to sink a kill into a role that is on the precipice of useless or letting a cop investigation go is a position I want them to be in.

But we wouldn't have gained anything. Like assuming we decide on a no-lim, and then scum kills me, the net result of D1 + N1 would have been 1 less town player, with no information gained. It's not useful. If we had more investigatives then maybe it would have been useful.

(Sorry, I know there's a tracker but I don't think one town death is worth one tracker result when the scum is probably quite able to use crazy roles which we do NOT know about.

This logic only works if we have a reasonable chance of limming mafia today. We don't.

The likely worlds (if you are not mafia) are:

Lim someone:

Odds are, at this information level, whomever we lim will be town. You lose your power entirely and as such we get no cop result. Mafia kills someone with a more useful role. We lose 1 town, likely 2, and 1 investigation.

Lim nobody, Mafia kills you:

We are down only 1 town and not a useful one. Town is better off for you having died as opposed to one of the power roles. We lose 1 town and 1 investigation.

Lim nobody, Mafia kills someone else:

We are down only 1 town but we have successfully created a set of circumstances where you are able to get off an investigation. We are down 1 town but up 1 investigation.

You tell me which you prefer:
-2 dead town, 1 lost investigation
-1 dead town, 1 lost investigation OR 1 dead town, 1 successful investigation

[DragonEater70]

CCS roleblocks three people in the same phase.

Maybe I misunderstood CCS claim, but doesn't the target decide if they want to be roleblocked? Which makes it a useless role?

you can force the people with baked goods to eat

How?

[DragonEater70]

Like do you target them or...

[DragonEater70]

Presuming you are telling the truth, even if you do die, forcing the Mafia to waste a kill on a role that is only useful under very specific circumstances is a win in my book.

They are not wasting a kill, they are earning a free kill. If we eliminate then they'd be wasting a kill.

[camelCasedSnivy]

CCS roleblocks three people in the same phase.

Maybe I misunderstood CCS claim, but doesn't the target decide if they want to be roleblocked? Which makes it a useless role?

you can force the people with baked goods to eat

How?

"Eat the baked goods or we lim you"

[Aureal]

Yeah, I already acknowledged that you guys can't be sure that my role is actually entirely the same as the abilities I give to others. I understand that and fully expect that I'm not going to be surviving deep into the game, it's just a matter of whether scum or town kill me off first. What is not acceptable is just waving it all away so I can get killed tonight and leave none of it behind for town when they see in the morning that it all came from town in the first place so they didn't need to be paranoid but OOOOOPS TOO LATE NOW. I will
be using my other neighborhood on someone today so it'd be really cool to get some feedback from others on this stuff but that's not happening because Bingle's been yelling about it being scum.

I told you already: I think you should neighborize Ranger.

OMFG GUYS

DE is such obvious scum here

He literally just cut out the last paragraph WHERE I EXPLAIN WHY WE SHOULDN'T GIVE IT TO RANGER YET

so he can just say again that I should give it to Ranger

WTF

[AniX]

Presuming you are telling the truth, even if you do die, forcing the Mafia to waste a kill on a role that is only useful under very specific circumstances is a win in my book.

They are not wasting a kill, they are earning a free kill. If we eliminate then they'd be wasting a kill.

They get a kill tonight regardless. They are not getting a free kill. They will get that kill regardless of what we do today. Better it be on you than any of the other roles people have claimed. How on earth does that kill they get regardless become "wasted" if we lim today?

[DragonEater70]

Presuming you are telling the truth, even if you do die, forcing the Mafia to waste a kill on a role that is only useful under very specific circumstances is a win in my book.

They are not wasting a kill, they are earning a free kill. If we eliminate then they'd be wasting a kill.

They get a kill tonight regardless. They are not getting a free kill. They will get that kill regardless of what we do today. Better it be on you than any of the other roles people have claimed. How on earth does that kill they get regardless become "wasted" if we lim today?

Okay let me put it this way:
Let's take, for the sake of argument, a mountainous setup with 4 scum and 13 town (17 players total).
If town eliminates every day and scum kills every night, then if town is doing a really bad job and hitting town only, you'd have:
Dawn of D1 - 4/13
Dawn of D2 - 4/11
Dawn of D3 - 4/9
Dawn of D4 - 4/7
Dawn of D5 - 4/5 (ELO)
End of D5 - 4/4 (scum wins)
Scum wins at end of D5 after 5 eliminations.
Now if town doesn't eliminate D1 you get:
Dawn of D1 - 4/13
Dawn of D2 - 4/12
Dawn of D3 - 4/10
Dawn of D4 - 4/8
Dawn of D5 - 4/6
Dawn of D6 - 4/4 (scum wins)
But in this scenario town only got 4 chances to do an elimination, instead of 5 (since they didn't eliminate D1).
Therefore this is the equivalent of giving scum a free kill.
No obviously we are no in mountainous but unless we have some good, usable night actions which will find us scum (rather than just negate scum actions, for example by way of roleblock), then we are still giving scum a free kill for no reason.

[DragonEater70]

Can someone who is experienced and knowledgeable about this site's meta (and more importantly, the theory behind it) back me up here?

[camelCasedSnivy]

we could theoretically lim KKFC

[DkKoba]

Yeah, I already acknowledged that you guys can't be sure that my role is actually entirely the same as the abilities I give to others. I understand that and fully expect that I'm not going to be surviving deep into the game, it's just a matter of whether scum or town kill me off first. What is not acceptable is just waving it all away so I can get killed tonight and leave none of it behind for town when they see in the morning that it all came from town in the first place so they didn't need to be paranoid but OOOOOPS TOO LATE NOW. I will
be using my other neighborhood on someone today so it'd be really cool to get some feedback from others on this stuff but that's not happening because Bingle's been yelling about it being scum.

I told you already: I think you should neighborize Ranger.

OMFG GUYS

DE is such obvious scum here

He literally just cut out the last paragraph WHERE I EXPLAIN WHY WE SHOULDN'T GIVE IT TO RANGER YET

so he can just say again that I should give it to Ranger

WTF

lame scummy gotcha rofl

[DragonEater70]

Yeah, I already acknowledged that you guys can't be sure that my role is actually entirely the same as the abilities I give to others. I understand that and fully expect that I'm not going to be surviving deep into the game, it's just a matter of whether scum or town kill me off first. What is not acceptable is just waving it all away so I can get killed tonight and leave none of it behind for town when they see in the morning that it all came from town in the first place so they didn't need to be paranoid but OOOOOPS TOO LATE NOW. I will
be using my other neighborhood on someone today so it'd be really cool to get some feedback from others on this stuff but that's not happening because Bingle's been yelling about it being scum.

I told you already: I think you should neighborize Ranger.

OMFG GUYS

DE is such obvious scum here

He literally just cut out the last paragraph WHERE I EXPLAIN WHY WE SHOULDN'T GIVE IT TO RANGER YET

so he can just say again that I should give it to Ranger

WTF

Dude, I cut out the quote as well. I think I accidentally used the quoting by marking text feature instead of the quote button.

[DragonEater70]

I mean this btw:

[DragonEater70]

but if we want to give dragoneater an actual shot at using their ability in order to chain ability confirmations we could no lim to be safe

What do we gain from letting DragonEater70 investigate by nolimming? Assuming it goes through, a single town player, statistically speaking. If DragonEater70 hit scum, it'd be better, sure; by the odds, still unlikely.

What do we lose from nolimming to guarantee it? Assuming scum shoot, a single town player.

A nolim breaks even

if

nothing goes wrong.

Personally, I'd prefer eliminating scum today. If we get it right, DE70 still gets an invest anyway. If we get it wrong, then at least we didn't put the game on hold for a single investigation where we likely break even.

I suppose the question then is simply this; do you believe the

chance

of getting a guilty warrants a

guaranteed

loss of eliminating scum today?

I don't. I'd prefer a chance to eliminate scum, which if right, gives a chance of a guilty still.

Strengthened.

[DragonEater70]

omg is epic mafia gone?

I was so sad when I heard the news. Apparently it's related to some drama with the site being basically unmoderated, so it was taken down.

[DragonEater70]

koba's gonna pull some wizardry out of hammerspace and they're going to solve the game based off of epicmafia

I thought Ranger was the Epicmafia pro here.

[DragonEater70]

aureal->delta->cook

At least 2 mafia die here

Replace Cook with Ircher and I'm in!

[Theta Alpine]

by the way
investigation result would not be lost cause i can just treestump dragoneater if they do die

[DragonEater70]

like lim them if they dont comply

Yeah but do you know if they are lying about it?

[DragonEater70]

by the way
investigation result would not be lost cause i can just treestump dragoneater if they do die

I thought you could only treestump millers and mafia???

[KatyKimFanClub]

If u guys vote me DE70 will lose role but it would be net 0 investigations. Problem is that my role is random and thus will likely hit town.

[AniX]

Presuming you are telling the truth, even if you do die, forcing the Mafia to waste a kill on a role that is only useful under very specific circumstances is a win in my book.

They are not wasting a kill, they are earning a free kill. If we eliminate then they'd be wasting a kill.

They get a kill tonight regardless. They are not getting a free kill. They will get that kill regardless of what we do today. Better it be on you than any of the other roles people have claimed. How on earth does that kill they get regardless become "wasted" if we lim today?

Okay let me put it this way:
Let's take, for the sake of argument, a mountainous setup with 4 scum and 13 town (17 players total).
If town eliminates every day and scum kills every night, then if town is doing a really bad job and hitting town only, you'd have:
Dawn of D1 - 4/13
Dawn of D2 - 4/11
Dawn of D3 - 4/9
Dawn of D4 - 4/7
Dawn of D5 - 4/5 (ELO)
End of D5 - 4/4 (scum wins)
Scum wins at end of D5 after 5 eliminations.
Now if town doesn't eliminate D1 you get:
Dawn of D1 - 4/13
Dawn of D2 - 4/12
Dawn of D3 - 4/10
Dawn of D4 - 4/8
Dawn of D5 - 4/6
Dawn of D6 - 4/4 (scum wins)
But in this scenario town only got 4 chances to do an elimination, instead of 5 (since they didn't eliminate D1).
Therefore this is the equivalent of giving scum a free kill.
No obviously we are no in mountainous but unless we have some good, usable night actions which will find us scum (rather than just negate scum actions, for example by way of roleblock), then we are still giving scum a free kill for no reason.

Limming a townie is also giving scum a free kill because it ends the game 1 day sooner AND takes a role off the board. An extra chance at a town elimination only is better if we actually use it to lim Mafia. Unless we have good, solid evidence right now at this moment that we are likely to eliminate scum, which we don't, despite what overconfident people think they are doing with their reads, an extra day is better than an extra dice roll lim.

[DragonEater70]

Guys, for the love of al that is holy. Please. I beg of you. Let's vote scummy players rather than toying around with mech and arriving at a net 0 gain.

[KatyKimFanClub]

But, I think dying earlier here has utility for town, since I'm going to be a liability come endgame since scum will never kill me.