Rofl wrote: voll's argument about yos leaving his vote on ckd when he was at L-1 or -2 or whatever is a load of crap and he knows it because ckd was only at that stage due to a SELF VOTE. stop trying to argue that anyone should have unvoted ckd for self voting.
The fact it was a self-vote is completely irrelevant. The material facts are that CKD was at L-1 and that Yos held an unjustified vote.
Yos wrote:
You keeping your vote on implies you were happy with CKD having the number of votes he did after I voted him. How is that not an "endorsement" of my vote?
Number, yes. Reasons, no. I thought CKD deserved to be at L-1, but I never thought that gut votes were acceptable.
Yos wrote:
But you didn't have a problem with that when I voted, and the only thing that changed was the self vote.
I've already answered this point. I didn't connect your vote to the fact of the wagon being at L-1. What changed was me recognising those two facts together, when Des pointed it out to me.
vollkan wrote:
And your "reasons" (If I might blaspheme the term) were not at all stronger than mine. I relied on a direct contradiction in CKD's play. You relied on "some weird feelings". There is absolutely not even an equivalence between the two.
Um...this was the reason for why you first voted for CKD:
vollkan wrote: CKD wrote:
again, gut...not a case.
Unvote, Vote: CKD Obv scum.
Which you later tried to claim was a "joke vote", even though you basically kept it on him from then on. The reasons I had for first voting him were much stronger then that, certanly.
You then, in an "Ex post facto" justification for your own vote (which is fine when you do it but not when I do it?), brought up the silly "irregular verbs" thing, which is also much weaker then the case I made against him. [/quote]
Cherry-picking. This was my voting post:
Vollkan wrote: vollkan wrote:DGB wrote: He needs to BUTTER UP EVERYBODY. Not just townies, not just mafiates, but every player in the game.
The hypothesis of SK-vollkan buttering up everybody is perfectly valid, but as is the hypothesis of vollkan (alignment independent) simply expressing enthusiasm for this game.
DGB wrote:
The self-vote is a symptom of vollkan's solitary proclivities, proclivities that include killing players at night without benefit of team discussions.
I must have missed the logical links between self-vote and being solitary, and between solitariness and solo murdering.
DGB wrote:
Also, it's self-bus'ing. I mean, he can only bus himself. He's doing it to get town cred in case he goes down in flames.
I'd strongly encourage any SK/s to adopt this excellent strategy.
DGB wrote:
Question is, do we lynch the SK or do we lynch the mafia? This game is like shooting fish in a barrel.
Barrel of what?
roflcopter wrote:
vollkan, who do you think is most likely town?
Me.
CKD wrote:
again,
gut
...not a case.
Unvote, Vote: CKD
Obv scum.
CKD wrote:
I didnt like these questions on page 3..who thinks anyone is town on Page 3 of Day 1...I thought maybe he was trying to get conversation started..but just seemed too forced to me.
What do you mean by "forced"?
CKD wrote: sometime just doesnt
feel
right.
*vomit*
CKD wrote: to me, just seems like someone who is trying to look like they are scum hunting
Reaching. I don't see how you can say that such questions are indicative of an attempt to appear scumhunting, rather than just early an effort to scum hunt or at least spur discussion.
With the exception of "*vomit*", the two questions which follow go to the hypocritical play I voted CKD for. His answers affirmed this:
vollkan wrote:CKD wrote: the vote is on page 5...it is gut..there is nothing more to go on this early in the game...
of course I am fucking reaching..it is early in the game..i am trying to scum hunt. lynch me if you need to for my gut vote on page 5...essentially you are voting me for the exact same reason, vollkan..you think i am reaching and your gut says that is scummy....I think he is trying to earn friends..it was a gut reaction..which is why I said in my vote "lets see where this goes" and didnt present a case with it. Vollkan you have seen me vote on my gut NUMEROUS times as town in the passed...funny you seem to be forgetting that now..why is that? Out of everyone in the game YOU should know I vote gut frequently..we have even discussed it before...noted.
You don't know a joke vote when you see one.
CKD, since when have I been the type to vote seriously based on the use of "gut" alone? Since when have I been the type to preface my votes with "obv scum"? You know better than most how much I tend to vacillate and obsess about different possibilities.
Let me state without qualification that, whilst I generally take issue with unreasoned votes, I know CKD's meta and know that, in his case, gut is (albeit to my disdain) normal. Not that this is a warrant for CKD to give no reasons or anything, but I've learned to give up trying to make my case against gut for him
CKD wrote:
also vollkan, those questions seemed out of place..it didnt set right with me...this OF COURSE is reaching...I stated several times it wasnt a case...I am not trying to parade it as anything else..it seemed force because they didnt make any sense..."vollkan, who do you think is town" (or something of the like) on page 3-4 IS forced. it looks like someone trying to LOOK like they are doing something without really doing anything.
This point is serious though, lest my gut humour confuse you. CKD, I find it something of a double standard that when you go after something in a manner which, by your own admission is "reaching", then it is acceptable as early game scumhunting. But, when somebody else asks stupid questions, it is "forced" and an attempt to "appear" to be scumhunting. What say you?
Yos wrote: How is a playstyle change not an inherent scumtell? It's not something that only scum do, but I certanly think a change of playstyle increases the chance of a change in alignment, dosn't it?
There are numerous reasons why a person's style might change (new meta experiences, mood, power role, etc.). It's only scummy if you can pinpoint the change and explain what's scummy about it.
Yos wrote: Saying that my second point was "disagreement with CKD's gut" is a complete misrepresentation of what I said, as I have already explained at least twice. It's that i don't at all understand where his gut vote might have been coming from, and that IS a scum tell.
I called it "gut disagreement" in our debate on this point, and I stand by that label. What it is basically is saying "I don't know CKD's reasons, but I can't imagine he has any good ones". The solution is not to suspect him; the solution is to inquire after the reasons for his suspicion.
Yos wrote:
The "poor early game play" thing is a fine reason to vote someone especally in the early point of the game when I voted him
Yes, my argument was just that this was by no means restricted to CKD and probably just due to the nature of this game's early stage
Yos wrote: and I never said #4 at all.
You did actually:
Yos wrote: Voll wrote: You're better than this.
Unvote, Vote: Yosarian2
This is exactally why some people just say "gut", you know. Because whenever you try to explain exactally why you have a bad, scummy feeling about someone's posts, you get attacked for it.
I'm not trying to constuct a "logical case" here, really. I think CKD is scum, and I'm trying to explain what gave me that impression. You can either agree or disagree.
And what the hell do you mean, I'm better then this? It's early on day 1 and I've already caught a scum and figured out who one of his scum partners is. What more do you want?
DrippingGoofball wrote:I'd like vollkanscum to park his vote in a more productive place. You're not going to be a chicken with your vote, are you, vollkan?
No. I know that my Yos suspicion is unlikely to carry through, since it has convinced nobody. As my rankings indicate, my next biggest suspect is CKD, followed by Korts and Rofl (who I know is even less viable a lynch than yos).
In light of the approaching deadline,
Unvote, Vote: CKD
