Invitational 10: 2005-2006. Game over! before 624

[Patrick]

And just quickly during break, bluesoul, yes, I'm happy for us to both target the same person, presumably whoever we decide is most likely to be scum. Choosing Xyl doesn't make much sense as you've already checked him, so I'd say one of CTD or elias atm. Hopefully today should help choose.

[elvis_knits]

Patrick, you think pablito could fail the hammer and still be scum?

As to night choices... I'm not sure bluesoul and Patrick should coordinate. Keep the scum guessing, I say. But whatever. Either way we will get a result from one of you even if the other dies. I agree on checking CTD or Elias though. I think CTD is scummier.

[Patrick]

Previously I didn't think so, but his bravado kind of worries me I have to admit. Eh, maybe he's just bluffing in the hope we put him to -1 quickly and he can cut off discussion. A lack of ability to hammer is so rare as a quirk anyway, so I don't see any compelling reason why he couldn't have it as the scumbag that he is.

[bluesoul]

Patrick, you think pablito could fail the hammer and still be scum?

As to night choices... I'm not sure bluesoul and Patrick should coordinate. Keep the scum guessing, I say. But whatever. Either way we will get a result from one of you even if the other dies. I agree on checking CTD or Elias though. I think CTD is scummier.

Well, there's something to be said for keeping the scum guessing, but this is the safest play; it reduces the chances of a false negative due to a GF, if the scum try to kill our target, that's just as good as clearing them only our chances of winning go up as we'll have at least one investigative role in endgame. This all assumes pabs is scum, if he's not we may have problems.

And like I said, I don't care who we target tonight, I don't know if CTD as scum would really try and run me up all the way to the end. Elias seems a more likely choice.

[elvis_knits]

Previously I didn't think so, but his bravado kind of worries me I have to admit. Eh, maybe he's just bluffing in the hope we put him to -1 quickly and he can cut off discussion. A lack of ability to hammer is so rare as a quirk anyway, so I don't see any compelling reason why he couldn't have it as the scumbag that he is.

If he can't hammer himself, and demonstrates it, that makes him look less guilty to me... and more like you're scum. However, I can think of scenarios where maybe he's still scum and you're telling the truth. I mean, maybe he has a scum PR and loses his vote the following day when he uses his power? I dunno (now I'm the one making up out-there scenarios). But I could see his vote not counting for some reason, which would allow him to prove the hammer-fail, and also allow him to be scum.

So I could go along with still lynching him... but if he turns up town, Patrick, you die tomorrow.

Bluesoul -- I see what you mean about wanting two investigations on one person to cover for GF ability.

[OhGodMyLife]

Vote Count:

4 to lynch

pablito: 2 (Patrick, Elias_the_thief)

Not Voting: 5 (bluesoul, elvis_knits, pablito, CrashTextDummie, Xylthixlm)

[Xylthixlm]

I don't see how two investigations on one person covers for a possible GF, given that the scum gets to choose which investigative role to kill.

patrick and bluesoul each picking one of {elias, elvis, CTD} independently and not saying who until tomorrow seems like a better plan.

[bluesoul]

I don't see how two investigations on one person covers for a possible GF, given that the scum gets to choose which investigative role to kill.

patrick and bluesoul each picking one of {elias, elvis, CTD} independently and not saying who until tomorrow seems like a better plan.

In that case whoever they would pick is going to die tonight anyway, why would they leave the person that could detect them alive?

[Xylthixlm]

Actually, I see the real advantage of your plan: the scum can't guess who each of you would investigate and kill the one they think is more likely to investigate them.

[pablito]

I'm about to go off to class and will likely be unavailable for the rest of the night, but I'm a bit pissed that you guys would think that even if I prove my role (of which it is confirmable), that you would still fathom lynching me rather than taking out proven scum Patrick. Imagine lynching me as town, Patrick giving you tomorrow a result of his "tracking" and then muddling up any logic that the town has built up. Take out Patrick now, and we can focus ourselves further on finding his partner and how he's acting now. I can guarantee that his suicide play is purposely hiding his tracks now so we can't find a mafia partner. There is no other logic on it all.

Try putting yourself in my shoes and see why I know he's bluffing. It just sucks that I can't be around more to defend myself. I didn't even get a chance to read his post against me but I know there were a few words that will probably piss me off when I do get a chance to read it.

Gah, why'd he choose me of all people, really? Sucks that I had to claim before him.

There is no reason why I would fake claim this role. And furthermore, I would not think that a mafia priest (as some have suggested) would even make sense in this layout.

I'm not trying to cut off discussion. I know that the lynch won't go through and I want to confirm myself as soon as I can.

Right now bluesoul and Xyl are confusing me. And if it weren't for bluesoul's better claim, I'd be thinking worse of him. Xyl seems to have switched everything around too. He's being a bit too cautious for my tastes.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm back folks. Thanks so very very much to OGML for having my back. I apologize for dropping like I did.

[Patrick]

I'm about to go off to class and will likely be unavailable for the rest of the night, but I'm a bit pissed that you guys would think that even if I prove my role (of which it is confirmable), that you would still fathom lynching me rather than taking out proven scum Patrick. Imagine lynching me as town, Patrick giving you tomorrow a result of his "tracking" and then muddling up any logic that the town has built up. Take out Patrick now, and we can focus ourselves further on finding his partner and how he's acting now

This is empty rhetoric. You can easily have the ability you're claiming to have as scum. Why would it make you town suddenly? How would I be "proven scum"? I don't see any argument here, you're just asserting that you'd be confirmed town. Also, what are you talking about when you say I'd be "muddling up any logic the town has built up tomorrow"? In the impossible event that you're lynched as town, I'd be lynched tomorrow no questions asked.

There is no reason why I would fake claim this role. And furthermore, I would not think that a mafia priest (as some have suggested) would even make sense in this layout.

Two obvious possibilities:

1) You don't have the quirk you claim to have, and you just claimed carelessly. I could see you overlooking it or being drunk.
2) You do have the quirk you claim to have, and you're claiming it in the hope that people will see you as confirmed.

I'm not trying to cut off discussion. I know that the lynch won't go through and I want to confirm myself as soon as I can.

I don't think this day has to go for ages, but for now I think we're still productive and carrying on will help. I can imagine you asking to be put at lynch-1 quickly so you can cut that off. I guess we'll see.

[elvis_knits]

1) You don't have the quirk you claim to have, and you just claimed carelessly. I could see you overlooking it or being drunk.

lol

[bluesoul]

Well, I guess the question is how much does pablito confirming his restriction clear him? It's a role I've never seen used but again, with our mod and his experience in #mafia with some bizarre roles, I find it certainly plausible. With it being a role I've never seen I don't know how likely it is to be a town role versus a scum role.

Actually, I think I've just realized something; not being able to hammer could be absolutely crushing for scum in the endgame. The role seems to open a whole can of worms in a 3-player scenario. If day starts and you don't notice, and the other two players cross votes...what happens? You ask someone to unvote so you can vote? Seems cumbersome and an unlikely scum role. I realize most of this argument applies for townies too but townies by nature have strength in numbers and it becomes much less likely for the situation to be a problem, again, until we get to endgame.

I don't know what to think at this point.

[bluesoul]

I know I called pablito a liability in the endgame but I didn't really grasp the extent of it until just now.

[Patrick]

It's not really cumbersome as a scum quirk. By endgame, the scum would have probably claimed that quirk and people would be aware of it. Asking someone else to unvote wouldn't really seem weird.

[Xylthixlm]

It's not really cumbersome as a scum quirk. By endgame, the scum would have probably claimed that quirk and people would be aware of it. Asking someone else to unvote wouldn't really seem weird.

Agreed. Once it's claimed, I think the only impact being unable to hammer has is that it's verifiable.

Of course, if there are other roles that interact with hammering, it gets interesting. But I don't see that in this game.

[Elias_the_thief]

As scummy as Pablito is, if his self hammer is ineffective, then I'm probably going to switch over to Patrick. I mean, its certainly possible that there is a mafia priest, but it seems like a bit of bastard moddery, because it makes mafia extremely disadvantaged if the priest is alive by himself in endgame. It seems that if scum hasnt come under a lot of suspicioun they wouldnt have claimed the quirk, and it would seem weird to bring up suddenly in endgame.

[Patrick]

That's crap reasoning. By that late stage, a massclaim is almost certain to have taken place. (People tend to massclaim in lylo, and people tend to massclaim when there's only one scum left. The previous day would be one of those). Even if the scum hasn't roleclaimed at all, then it can probably use it's status as "confirmed innocent" in the endgame to force a townie to unvote by making something up as a roleclaim.

[bluesoul]

You know, from a pure balance perspective, Patrick's role makes much more sense. If he's not a tracker we've got a

very

underpowered town in what's supposed to be an Invitational game. I would expect an Invitational-class setup meaning, well, balanced. In this instance a tracker and mafia priest is not unfeasible.

[CrashTextDummie]

If Pablito hammers himself and fails, I'm prepared to lynch Patrick. Being unable to hammer seems like a potentially debilitating "power" to give scum, as it robs them of the ability to quicklynch in certain scenarios. Patrick's argument to the contrary in his last two posts seems kind of sketchy to me, but it's understandable if he's town having to argue something he knows is correct. So I still expect Pablito to come up scum.

As far as investigations go, I'm not sure I see the point of coordinating them. The pros of keeping the scum guess outweigh whatever cons there are. I think that either myself or Elias should be investigated, as I don't see Elvis as scum (and apparently, I'm in the majority here), so this should end the game if it isn't already over after todays lynch, barring a gunless GF or bluesoul lying. And if either of those is the case, that's a problem coordination couldn't fix anyway.

Having said that, I'm pretty much done with today.

[Xylthixlm]

Someone nominate a coordination target so I can put another vote on pablito.

[pablito]

I've only skimmed and promise to get a more substantial post about 24 hrs from now when I'll be back on a computer.

This is empty rhetoric. You can easily have the ability you're claiming to have as scum. Why would it make you town suddenly? How would I be "proven scum"? I don't see any argument here, you're just asserting that you'd be confirmed town. Also, what are you talking about when you say I'd be "muddling up any logic the town has built up tomorrow"? In the impossible event that you're lynched as town, I'd be lynched tomorrow no questions asked.

I've also heard of mafia trackers being in games before (or at least being brought up as a possibility), and a mafia gunsmith with a vig and SK dead isn't really much of a stretch as a "goon". Although at the moment, I believe that bluesoul is legit. I don't see much wrong with what he's said today or yesterday or the previous day independent of his claim. Although at the moment, I'm more apt to believe that scum fake-claiming are just plain fake-claiming - especially if one "investigative" role was already outed and one scum was already going to claim an investigative role and wants to place the spotlight on someone else, but couldn't really claim cop. I just don't see why there's two investigative roles - in which both target possible suspects. I'd more likely suspect a nightwatchman - someone who gives a night choice of who to watch to see if anyone visits. But even that can be too powerful. But a game in which there's two that can easily spread around the investigation and later claim results - just seems too powerful unless mafia have a GF and/or some other mafia power role.

I believe you're proven scum, Patrick, because I can't fathom why'd you make up your choices, unless there's some type of mafia framer role that mucks up a tracker Patrick (and even Bluesoul's). And that would totally suck if mafia had the ability to toy with our results - because that makes it a whole nother game.

While I could be a liability in endgame, if mafia don't take me out and you guys don't foolishly lynch me, I promise announce my vote and not do so without permission from all of the people are confirmed innocent at that point (and if none can be confirmed, then people I announce as being trustworthy). That way, even in a three or four way endgame, I wouldn't hastily put my vote on before the other town-aligned player/s knew who they will vote for. I've already been very careful with my vote so far, I don't see why I can't coordinate my vote in a lynch and lose situation.

P.S. I'm ready if others are.

[bluesoul]

Well, I guess we go one step at a time and see if pablito can confirm his role.

Vote pablito

I'll be targeting elias tonight.

[Patrick]

If Pablito hammers himself and fails, I'm prepared to lynch Patrick. Being unable to hammer seems like a potentially debilitating "power" to give scum, as it robs them of the ability to quicklynch in certain scenarios. Patrick's argument to the contrary in his last two posts seems kind of sketchy to me, but it's understandable if he's town having to argue something he knows is correct.

Simply repeating that it would be a debilitating power for scum does not make it so. If pablito does hammer and not die, I want you to explain what exactly is sketchy rather than just vaguely going along with someone elses bad argument. I've found your play today rather disconcerting, starting with the immediate skeptsism of bluesoul's claim - it's kind of hard to believe your sense of balance could be that poor. Of course, if pablito really does get lynched by his own hand, this quote means little. We'll see.

To coordinate with bluesoul, I'll also target elias tonight; he's probably one of the more likely candidates. If pablito kills himself and I'm killed overnight, I'd recommend lynching CTD if elias turns up clean, then lynching either elias or Xyl if CTD is town. I feel that bluesoul is confirmed beyond reasonable doubt.