Open 875 - The Kindgom of Zeal: The Queens Chosen - GAME OVER

[Radical Rat]

I will accept the yelling

[Ranger]

We had four flipped cops yesterday, that's why Enchant makes five.

redFF
Detective Penguin
furtiveglance
Ethel

And now Enchant

Correct, but Enchant wasn't dead when the scum made their nightkill.

And you're insinuating Umlaut isn't town.

With the setup confirmed to be either 5:5 or 6:4 and the scum knowing which it is and with Enchant

not being flipped last night

, then there is no missing cop with your alleged cop claim.

If Umlaut is a real cop, then the setup would be 6:4, and with 4 dead cops, Umlaut + RR would make 6.
If Umlaut is scum, then the setup would be 5:5, and with 4 dead cops, +RR would make 5.

Which means

regardless of Umlaut's alignment

, the scum

would not doubt your claim

--unless of course you're scum so they already know your claim to be fake.

If Umlaut is Town, with four cops already flipped... 4 dead + 2 claimed = 6, which is impossible in a 5 cop game, but possible in a 6 cop game.

Therefore if scum believes me it's confirmed a 6 cop game, and if they don't it's highly likely a 5 cop game.

Again.

Enchant wasn't dead last night

.

For all intents and purposes,

regardless of 5:5 or 6:4

, the scum wouldn't know RR was faking if RR were town.

They would assume RR instead of Enchant was the last cop

.

Imagine if Enchant had claimed yesterday and RR did not.
We'd have six claimed cops, and scum would know the total (and it would be either five or six).

It's identical in every way to RR having claimed and Enchant having not.

[Radical Rat]

Ranger, you're just wrong here.

Scum can believe me if Umlaut is scum, but if Umlaut is Town they can ONLY believe me in a six cop game because four plus one equals five. And six is greater than five.

You're right that if Enchant claimed instead the math would be the same, but wrong that scum would believe everything regardless

[Radical Rat]

Unless they believed me and thought Umlaut was lying I guess? But I can't imagine they'd believe the cop with results over the cop without any

[Ranger]

If Umlaut is in fact town as claimed post-hammer, I do in fact lean towards {RR, KawaiiKame} for the hammer Kawaii dropped if nothing else.

Prior to Gimli's recent posting I thought Gimli could be TMI'ing scum by virtue of having pushed Cephrir over furtive and RR over Umlaut (in other words, being right on both scum is actually arguably suspect), but with Gimli's solving I actually believe he genuinely came to those conclusions organically without knowing too much.

I don't believe LLD is ever scum here.

So the last two scum are in {RR, KawaiiKame, Save the Dragons}.

[Radical Rat]

If Umlaut's Town, Kawaii's definitely on the team

[Ranger]

Scum can believe me if Umlaut is scum, but if Umlaut is Town they can ONLY believe me in a six cop game because four plus one equals five. And six is greater than five.

Again, you're arguing under the knowledge Enchant has flipped. But he hadn't.

If Umlaut is town, there's six cops in the game and yesterday

there were six cops claimed

. Six, not five, not seven.
If Umlaut is scum, there's five cops in the game and yesterday

there were six cops claimed

. With the scum knowing Umlaut is scum, that's five legit cops total. Five, not six, not seven.

[Radical Rat]

Yes. And scum knows AHEAD OF TIME how many cops there are.

So if there are six claims and they know there's only five in the game, BEFORE anything happens with Enchant... what does that mean?

[Radical Rat]

I guess it doesn't matter at this point.

Either Umlaut's flip will prove me right, or I'll look very silly for trying to predict what scum would do

[Ranger]

Scum can believe me if Umlaut is scum, but if Umlaut is Town they can ONLY believe me in a six cop game because four plus one equals five. And six is greater than five.

Again, you're arguing under the knowledge Enchant has flipped. But he hadn't.

If Umlaut is town, there's six cops in the game and yesterday

there were six cops claimed

. Six, not five, not seven.
If Umlaut is scum, there's five cops in the game and yesterday

there were six cops claimed

. With the scum knowing Umlaut is scum, that's five legit cops total. Five, not six, not seven.

I'd like to reiterate this.

With RR's claim being false regardless of their alignment, RR's claim is interchangeable with Enchant's. The scum cannot magically know RR's claim is false unless RR is scum.

If Umlaut is town, with Enchant having been a cop (just unflipped), scum knew the total of cops was six, and Umlaut+RR/Enchant made 6. The scum would believe the sixth was RR, if RR were town.
If Umlaut is scum, with Enchant having been an unflipped cop, scum knew the total of cops was five, and RR/Enchant made five (with Umlaut fakeclaiming).
The scum would know any scum claiming would be fake, but with Enchant having

not

claimed,

scum could not have known RR's claim was fake

...unless of course RR was scum.

[Radical Rat]

I really don't want tomorrow to just be arguing over elementary school math, so please just. Look at it again over the night without confbias

[Ranger]

Yes. And scum knows AHEAD OF TIME how many cops there are.
So if there are six claims and they know there's only five in the game, BEFORE anything happens with Enchant... what does that mean?

You're arguing something impossible: Umlaut+Enchant town with five cops in the game after 4 had flipped.

Your argument literally relies on that impossible scenario, which the scum would know was impossible.
The scum know the total of cops is either five or six.
The scum know Umlaut claimed cop.
The scum know RR claimed cop (and RR in this case is interchangeable with Enchant).

5 cops with Umlaut+Enchant/RR both claimed is impossible, and scum knew that yesterday.

[Ranger]

I really don't want tomorrow to just be arguing over elementary school math, so please just. Look at it again over the night without confbias

There's no confbias involved.

Regardless of your alignment

, and

regardless of Umlaut's alignment

, there is never too many cop claims yesterday in the scum's eyes.

There's either exactly the right amount, or

one too few

.

The scum know the total number of cops this game.
If the total is 5, then yesterday they would see 4 dead cops and two claimed cops. They would know that's an impossibility and one would be fake. If neither claim is scum, they would "know" one was town and lying. (And with Enchant taken into the equation without their knowledge, they would be

two over the total

, because 4 dead + Enchant + RR + Umlaut = 7.) This scenario

requires both claims to be lies

, because with 5 cops in the game and Enchant unclaimed, both claimed cops would be fake.
And since Enchant was a cop and Umlaut is claimed cop,

this cannot be possible

.

If the total is 5, then yesterday they would see 4 dead cops and two claimed cops, and know which of them was lying. They would "know"

the remaining cop was town

.

If the total is 6, then yesterday they would see 4 dead cops and two claimed cops, and know if any were lying. They would "know" the claims to be real.

[Radical Rat]

Okay, I apologize, I see what you're saying now.

Umlaut + Enchant still makes sense, so if Umlaut is Town a five cop game is impossible, and if Umlaut is scum, a five cop game IS possible but Umlaut wouldn't count toward the limit.

I'm sorry I got heated over that, I was hung up on the raw numbers and didn't consider the implications different scenarios had.

[Radical Rat]

Which means there's a very real probability I was just incredibly wrong on the whole thing. Fuck.

[Ranger]

To be clear, I'll be instavoting Radical Rat tomorrow if Lady Lambdadelta dies overnight.

If Umlaut flips town cop as it seems, LLD would be forced to accept I'm town on D5.

I'm not letting RR get away with "I protected Ranger" as an excuse for letting LLD die.

[Radical Rat]

I'd have preferred you not say that because now I have to play double WIFOM with scum

[Gimli]

my goodness

[Gimli]

if tomorrow is elo then I don't see how scum doesn't either shoot ranger or holsters

ranger going 'defend lld or i'm going to tunnel you' doesn't help

neither does it help eliminating the likelier town in the rr/umlaut pair

[Gimli]

I hope kawa is scum anyway

[Gimli]

std and lld also spent a huge chunk of the game just letting town eat itself up

meh

[LavosCore]

Vote Count 4-FINAL

Radical Rat

(2)

:

Umlaut - Gimli

Umlaut

(4)

:

Lady Lambdadelta - Radical Rat - Ranger - KawaiiKame

Not Voting

(1)

:

Save The Dragons

With 7 players in the game, 4 are required to Yeet unto the Eternal Void .

Day ends in (expired on 2023-04-06 09:17:30)

Mod Notes

Umlaut is V/LA!

Pronouns are visible under a players name, please use them. If you're unsure, ask!

[LavosCore]

Elimination!

Such haste, such confidence... I should commend you all for being so willing to join Lavos in his eternal life and all so fast.

I would assume with the speed you act, you care not for his alignment, but I should remind you all.

You are here to test the Mammon Machine, and to prevent the Earthbound from harming it.

You all have (expired on 2023-04-03 11:43:43) to remember this, and act accordingly.

Oh, and Umlaut was invited here, and Lavos has blessed him.

Umlaut was an Enlightened Investigator!

[LavosCore]

A New Day

How peculiar... not a knife in sight. I believe this means nobody joined Lavos overnight. Were you perhaps well blessed or did you lose your bottle? Even Melchior has taken an interest in what happened here - and he usually dislikes my games.

[LavosCore]

Vote Count 5-START

Not Voting

(6)

:

Save The Dragons - Gimli - Lady Lambdadelta - Radical Rat - Ranger - KawaiiKame

With 6 players in the game, 4 are required to Yeet unto the Eternal Void .

Day ends in (expired on 2023-04-10 12:17:48)

Mod Notes

Pronouns are visible under a players name, please use them. If you're unsure, ask!