Mini 650: Over

[SensFan]

Sir and SF, I hold you two most responsible for this.

Why would you go along 'complacently' with lynching someone without more info? Why are others going along with you as well?

It is so very obvious that you are right and every person voting Wall-E, which is more than the people not voting him, is dead wrong. Congratulations on being right, and I will be self-voting tomorrow in utter shame.

Sarcasm aside SF, I am entitled to think you guys are crazy.

I didn't say you need to self-vote or anything silly like that but I WILL ask for an explanation tomorrow regardless of what alignment Wall-E is. I don't buy the reasons for his lynch and I don't see why we would tunnel in and go after him without discussion, or who is a #2 scum choice, scumbuddies, etc.

For iamusername and hito, they mentioned who was on their list of "scum candidates" but neither SF or Sir did. They seem like they are just hoping on to "go with the flow" since they somehow view Sir and SF as town.

I don't get it, and I am not happy about it.

There is NOTHING ad hom. or wrong with me saying I am not happy with the actions you choose and the result we are getting.

Corv

I'll freely admit I have much less reasons to think Wall-E is Scum than I normally would to want a lynch. I wanted him to be lynched since he was not playing within the spirit of the rules.

[Electra]

Like this we really have no motivation to do anything. I would have really wanted to wait for OC to chime in, but something really has to happen now and I suspect Wall e enough to do this, especially with his vanilla claim.

unvote vote Wall-E

I really want more on OC tomorrow guys.

Wow, how did I guess. I'm so good.

[Wall-E]

Bah! Go town!

[Corvuus]

I'll freely admit I have much less reasons to think Wall-E is Scum than I normally would to want a lynch. I wanted him to be lynched since he was not playing within the spirit of the rules.

.....

I guess post game or on the forum after this game I am going to argue with you about this at some point.....

but i guess we will see what happens tonight.

Until then.... I don't like your meta SF.


Corvuus

[SensFan]

I don't like your meta SF.


Corvuus

I don't like people who skirt the rules.

[[jas]]

Vote count the Seventeenth

Wall-E (5) - hitogoroshi, SensFan, iamausername, omni, sirdanilot

sirdanilot (3) - Electra, OverCaffeinated, Wall-E
SensFan (1) - Corvuus

Not Voting:

nobody!

Wall-E has been lynched, death scene and flavour to follow.

[[jas]]

These council days must be important, if that wasn't clear by the death of your compatriots then it would certainly be clear by how long they seem to drag on for, all that weight of responsibility!

But the sun waits for no man, and at low dusk a vote is rushed for the one talked about most often today, Wall-E is to face the gallows.

As the body drops so too does a business card... But alas no alias here, nor anywhere at Wall-E's home, it would appear he was clean, one of you, and now he is dead.

Wall-E,

Townsperson

, lynched Day 2.

It is now Night 2, night actions to be received within 72 hours, night actions not received will be randomised, anyone choosing not to make a night action are to advise the mods of this.

[[jas]]

As the sun rises, the town gathers for a hastily-organised funeral to mourn those of you who had died in the previous day, before resuming your deliberations.

You quickly note, however, that someone is missing.

After the ceremony is complete you rush to the house of Electra, fearing the worst.

And it appears your fears were well founded. You find Electra's body still lying in bed, with a single clean bullet-wound to the chest.

Beside the bed, you find Electra's stethoscope and drug bag. It would appear that there was indeed another medical professional in the town.


Electra,

Pro-Town Doc

, shot Night 2.


It looks like today is going to be another tough day at the town council.

[iamausername]

I don't really remember what was going on in this game and I should probably reread, but I do remember that omni is obvscum, so

Vote: omni

.

[Wall-E]

Bah! Go town!

[OverCaffeinated]

Lame that we lynched Wall-E when there were better candidates, but not the end of the world. Sucks losing Electra as she was in my mind the most sure to be pro-town.

To tell you the truth, I need to re read the entire thread from the beginning. It's been too many days since the last time i posted and have forgotten my reasoning why i thought some people were more scummy then others.

I'll spend my lunch hour doing that and try to put together some kind of informed opinion.

[SensFan]

Sucks losing Electra as she was in my mind the most sure to be pro-town.

Vote: OC

[sirdanilot]

OC PbPA

Firstly, note the infrequency of OCs posts. This is not a scum tell in itself, but it's worth noting.

Agreed and I need to post more.

1 - The infamous jokey-vote on KrisReizer, which I deemed a town-tell at the time. Thing is, it continued the joking phase of the game, essentially giving OC a second random vote, krisreizer. So yeah, I don't think this is that good (scummy)

I did it for the comedic value. Though I do agree that it didn’t help the town.

We agree on this point, then, that it didn't really help the town.

2 - This game theory post is not that bad. However, he says it's important to get people to vote, but a second random vote just doesn't help in my opinion. And then he says that voting so much that 'votes lose their value'is bad. And he admits that his second random vote was a joke vote, so yeah I think this is scummy too. (scummy)

Voting is good as it is important to force the scum to go on the record. It also gives us something to review in the end game. So voting and voting a lot helps, but if you vote too much (like for more then 50% of the players alive) it shows a lack of conviction and makes it seem like your early voting for your scum compatriots.

Yes, I agree that voting a lot helps. But the thing is, if you go as far as doing a second random vote, you are going way too far, and the vote will lose its meaning. Random votes can be helpful, but going as far as doing more than one of them makes it lose its meaning.

5 - I don't like this. Lurking is not a scum-tell at all times, since there may be tons of reasons for lurkers to lurk, including many that are not game related. (scummy)

I agree that lurking isn’t always a scum tell. But lurking tends to be a viable scum tactic in games where the players let them get away with it.

Still no reason to vote lurkers over scummy but active players. What you can do is note 'hey X is lurking' and asking for prods. If they happen to be active lurking, then yes you can attack them for that, but this wasn't the case at the time.

6 - BAD BAD BAD BAD. He prefers to lynch inactive players over active players that are scummy (and yes, lk was scummy at the time). Not a way to play the game. (very scummy)

It is unusual for the scum to let one of their own get lynched on day one. Baring a mistake, it’s usually impossible for the town to get enough momentum to lynch someone the scum don’t want them to lynch. That is why I am a proponent of setting the ground rules on lurking.

Now now. You're only getting worse here. The town should at all times try to lynch scum. I am very aware that the odds of hanging scum are low on day 1, but it is the discussion that lead to lynching someone that gives us potential targets. We can only do that if we lynch the most scummy player. Lynching people who lurk, disregarding their supposed alignment, beats the purpose of lynching. Remember that anti town =/= always scum. And especially with lurking, it may not even be anti town behaviour, but caused by external influences.

9 - BAD too, more or less the same as 5, but now he tells people to do the same as he does. (scummy)

I don’t see how this is bad. Refer to my response to number 5

And you may refer to my response above. This is what makes you scummy, bad logic AND trying to get others to believe your bad logic.

10 - This is scummy. He explicitly doesn't take a stance on LK, he even speculates between power-roles and scum. He said lk seemed 'excited' about the game, how is that a tell of any sort? (scummy)

I think I’m pretty good at spotting scum, but I (and many other people) sometimes get the behavior of a player with a pro-town power role confused with the behavior of scum. One of the “tells” that a player is scum is a lot of activity. Usually only very experienced players understand how to properly play a vanilla townie and have fun with it. Many newer players get bored with the game unless they have a fun role or are scum. Therefore activity level is indeed a tell and possibly an indicator that they are scum.

This is all just out of game and meta speculation. And that's not the worst. It didn't say anything at all about LKs alignment! He could be pro town power role or scum. Anyone could be scum, so the only thing you achieved is that you narrowed 'town' down to 'pro town power role'. And that is a very anti town thing to do, to speculate that someone may have a power role.

12 - ... and he posts 9 days later. 'Not a big fan of lynching active players', that's a scum tell as I mentioned earlier. He limits himself to the two biggest suspects and decides to vote afatchic. In my opinion, not really something a mafia wouldn't do to his partner, but not sure. (scummy-null)

This right here should have put me on your townie list.

Why? There was no counter claim so it would've been a bit weird to vote LK. I suppose you as OC-scum could have come up with a bad case on someone else, but that's also not a very easy thing to do. Just going with afatchic was probably the best thing for OC-scum to do at the time. And as I said, voting afatchic wasn't something OC-town wouldn't do either, therefore this part was a null tell.

13 - Bad. The sheer quantity of votes doesn't matter that much, he doesn't take the reasoning and situations into account at all. An effort to look helpful. (scummy)

I am at a total loss as to why you find this post scummy. This post was dead on and since I probably listed the remaining scum in a short list. I think that is why you are attacking me and this post. My logic seems simple and easy to understand, I think I just hit the nail on the head and that is why you’re attempting to find fault with it.

There's so much more to mafia than simply the quantity of votes. Sure, you could've analyzed this, but then check, 'hmm he has voted only two times, let's investigate that!'. Simply an quantitative analysis is just not enough. I will come back from my standpoint that it was very scummy I am going to have to agree with you on that.

15 - This is one of the most interesting posts.

Clearly the votes prior to Kmd4390 role claim are not part of the scum faction. The only exception I would make to that is the potential that TheInvisibleCop could be a scum ruse and that he failed to remove his vote prior to going inactive.

So that makes someone2 and Electra definitely not part of the scum group with AfatChic (still could be SK)

I wonder why you're so sure about that?

Although SensFan switched his vote back to Afatchic after the role claim by Kmd4390, he did it right away and scum would probably not do that.

I think this reasoning is flawed, scum could very well do that, since kmd was WAY less likely to be lynched than afat, and they'd want to distance themselves from afat before it'd be too late.

I think the reasoning is pretty solid. Those votes were done early enough that when they were made, afatchick wasn’t threatened by getting lynched. It’s these votes that actually put him in that position. And that is why those players are the ones that are least likely to be scum.

Afatchic was threatened from the moment that kmd claimed. I don't believe that SensFan is clear because of that at all (although I don't really suspect him at the moment). As for electra, you admit it yourself, he could've been SK. Re reading now, I can see that you were so convinced that he was town, but don't forget that alignments were unknown at the time.

As I have stated previously, I voted for you solely on the fact you were voting to lynch one of the two players that we knew from the day 1 vote record that they were most likely townies. That is a HUGE scum tell. Since then your OMGUS vote, your ceaseless attacking of Corvuus and this apparent affinity with SensFan have given me more reasons.

I am tempted to change my vote just to get the game moving again, but I just cant seem to find any candidate better then sirdanilot to vote for.

Electra could have been a SK, I found his actions day 2 unlikely for a townie at the time. I really don't see why this is such a huge scum tell. I'm not sure what you're referring to with my 'ceasless attacking of corvuus' nor my 'apparent affinity with SensFan'.

[OverCaffeinated]

Sucks losing Electra as she was in my mind the most sure to be pro-town.

Vote: OC

Not sure why the vote was for, but if you need a reminder of my analysis at the begining of day 2 and my reasoning for it, i've quoted it for you.

Sucks to lose the power roles, but I’ll trade a day 1 scum kill for a cop and doctor any day. We have a ton of information now and locating the remaining scum should be easy (except if we have an SK).

Lets look at the final votes on Afatchic:

afatchic (7) - TheInvisibleCop, someone2, Electra, Kmd4390, SensFan, hitogoroshi, Light-kun

Clearly the votes prior to Kmd4390 role claim are not part of the scum faction. The only exception I would make to that is the potential that TheInvisibleCop could be a scum ruse and that he failed to remove his vote prior to going inactive.

So that makes someone2 and Electra definitely not part of the scum group with AfatChic (still could be SK)

Although SensFan switched his vote back to Afatchic after the role claim by Kmd4390, he did it right away and scum would probably not do that.

Hitogoroshi jumped in more at the end when it was obvious afatchic was going to get lynched. I’m not going to go so far as say that makes him scum, but it doesn’t confirm he is pro-town.

With 8 other players left, then subtracting someone2, Electra, and SensFan from the list, we are left with these 5 players that can be the scum:

TheInvisibleCop
omni
sirdanilot
drake_259
hitogoroshi

[OverCaffeinated]

Afatchic was threatened from the moment that kmd claimed. I don't believe that SensFan is clear because of that at all (although I don't really suspect him at the moment).

Who cleared her? I said Sensfan vote at the end of day 1 and the timing of it made her less likely to be mafia, but I never cleared her. As a mater of fact I’ve find this defensiveness you have with Sensfan to be evidence of a link.

As for electra, you admit it yourself, he could've been SK. Re reading now, I can see that you were so convinced that he was town, but don't forget that alignments were unknown at the time.

Looking above, you see that I caveted in parentheses that they could still be SK. Of course voting patterns are not going to pick up unassociated scum. Truthfully I don’t even know how to find Serial Killers in this game. For all intents and purposes they post and vote like townies. Sucks when they are in a game.

As I have stated previously, I voted for you solely on the fact you were voting to lynch one of the two players that we knew from the day 1 vote record that they were most likely townies. That is a HUGE scum tell. Since then your OMGUS vote, your ceaseless attacking of Corvuus and this apparent affinity with SensFan have given me more reasons.

I am tempted to change my vote just to get the game moving again, but I just cant seem to find any candidate better then sirdanilot to vote for.

Electra could have been a SK, I found his actions day 2 unlikely for a townie at the time. I really don't see why this is such a huge scum tell. I'm not sure what you're referring to with my 'ceasless attacking of corvuus' nor my 'apparent affinity with SensFan'.

Yes, Electra

could

have been an SK. So could have anyone else. But Electra probably wasn't going to be one of the associated scum. And Electra's roleclaim was fitting with the text of night 1. Electra was of all the people, the least likely to be scum at that point.

You have voted for Electra, you've voted for Corvuus who was the third vote on AFatChick, and you threw the hammer on Wall-E to save yourself.

Vote: Sirdanilot

[OverCaffeinated]

Sorry for messing up your gender, Sensfan.

[hitogoroshi]

Not sure why the vote was for, but if you need a reminder of my analysis at the begining of day 2 and my reasoning for it, i've quoted it for you.

He voted you because of this.

* Gloating (any form of "complaining" about how bad the previous night was, how the doctor/cop was killed, etc.) Similar to "congratulating the doctor".

As I said before, I trust both Sens and SirD's judgment, and that and the tell all lines up on you. But it'd be really stupid to end the day now.

Left 4 Dead is taking all of my time now, but maybe I'll try to do a PbPA sometime.

...but, seriously, zombie killing is fun! D:

[Corvuus]

oh. the night took so long, I stopped checking to see if the day started.

I will read up and try to compose my arguments.

Hito: Why exactly do you trust Sens and SirD's judgment?

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

ok. I have been trying to read through things again (skipping the controversy) and I think I do have my own opinions on things but I need to work on my presentation so I think I will try a different style completely.

First of all:

I don't think setup speculation helps in the beginning without knowing *anything* but we now know that we *had* for *sure* 1 cop and 2 docs.

Assuming the game was balanced, etc. I think it definite that there is at least 2 mafia left, and potentially plausible that there are 3. I will refrain from any other speculation on setup issues.

Second of all:

I would appreciate not seeing posts with just 'vote:name' anymore. Maybe I am just being a hard-ass, my way or the highway type guy, but either say the case again or quote and post again. I can understanding doing it if they don't answer and it is maybe a few posts above your post and you want to put emphasis on it, but if it is more than a few pages back, then post it again or reference the post number.

Third:

If possible, I would like to know everyone's top 2 scum list. As I mentioned, I think there is definitely 2 left and I want to know more than players just voting one person and not saying anything. It isn't acceptable at this point anymore to lynch like we lynched Wall-E.

Fourth:

I would also like to know everyone's top 2 town list. Who you think are leaning town and why. Example: I think OC's posts on Electra plausibly being 2nd doc make me think he is more pro-town. I would like everyone to do the same.

---------------------------------------

I will abide by my own requests but I would like at least 2 others here to post their top 2 scum and top 2 town lists first before I do mine.

Corvuus

[iamausername]

omni is scum #1. sirdanilot is scum #2. Corvuus is town. The other three fall somewhere in the middle, I'm sort of hazy on them.

More details (and possibly even a change in those lists) when I get around to rereading.

potentially plausible that there are 3

No. There's most likely two scum left, with a slim chance of one. 4 scum in a twelve player game is never going to be balanced.

This means we probably have one mislynch left before lylo, so we might want to consider a massclaim today.

[sirdanilot]

Afatchic was threatened from the moment that kmd claimed. I don't believe that SensFan is clear because of that at all (although I don't really suspect him at the moment).

Who cleared her? I said Sensfan vote at the end of day 1 and the timing of it made her less likely to be mafia, but I never cleared her. As a mater of fact I’ve find this defensiveness you have with Sensfan to be evidence of a link.

Defensiveness? I just said that SensFan wasn't cleared at all with his vote. And me saying that I don't currently suspect him is not even defending him in the slightest. Stop looking for fake scum tells.

As for electra, you admit it yourself, he could've been SK. Re reading now, I can see that you were so convinced that he was town, but don't forget that alignments were unknown at the time.

Looking above, you see that I caveted in parentheses that they could still be SK. Of course voting patterns are not going to pick up unassociated scum. Truthfully I don’t even know how to find Serial Killers in this game. For all intents and purposes they post and vote like townies. Sucks when they are in a game.

As I have stated previously, I voted for you solely on the fact you were voting to lynch one of the two players that we knew from the day 1 vote record that they were most likely townies. That is a HUGE scum tell. Since then your OMGUS vote, your ceaseless attacking of Corvuus and this apparent affinity with SensFan have given me more reasons.

I am tempted to change my vote just to get the game moving again, but I just cant seem to find any candidate better then sirdanilot to vote for.

Electra could have been a SK, I found his actions day 2 unlikely for a townie at the time. I really don't see why this is such a huge scum tell. I'm not sure what you're referring to with my 'ceasless attacking of corvuus' nor my 'apparent affinity with SensFan'.

Yes, Electra

could

have been an SK. So could have anyone else. But Electra probably wasn't going to be one of the associated scum. And Electra's roleclaim was fitting with the text of night 1. Electra was of all the people, the least likely to be scum at that point.

Hush hush, you're fast forwarding. Remember that I removed Electra off my shortlist after she claimed. She didn't claim at the time I suspected her.

You have voted for Electra, you've voted for Corvuus who was the third vote on AFatChick, and you threw the hammer on Wall-E to save yourself.

Vote: Sirdanilot

Huh, wait... I don't remember ever voting corvuus, but my memory of this game is a bit foggy. And I just looked through all my posts and I never voted corvuus. I think you need to re read the game, or maybe it's just too early for me and I need to look better and reread the part where I supposedly voted corvuus.

I didn't throw the hammer on walle to save myself. You're doing a classic bad logic here, hammering town doesn't make someone scum. I kept waiting and waiting for you to post the reply to my pbpa, but you didn't, so I decided to move on. And guess what, the reply came in twilight! Now there's a small chance that this was coincidence so I didn't vote you for that, but it does say something, doesn't it.

[[jas]]

Vote count the Eighteenth

OverCaffeinated (1) - SensFan
sirdanilot (1) - OverCaffeinated


Not Voting: iamausername, omni, sirdanilot, hitogoroshi, Corvuus


With

7

alive it's

4

to lynch.

[omni]

Corvuus why is it that you want to wait to say yours? I must admit I'm pretty unsure now, the game has been moving slowly and yesterday was slow confusing that I'm quite confused as to who is what at the moment.

[OverCaffeinated]

Huh, wait... I don't remember ever voting corvuus, but my memory of this game is a bit foggy. And I just looked through all my posts and I never voted corvuus. I think you need to re read the game, or maybe it's just too early for me and I need to look better and reread the part where I supposedly voted corvuus.

I just read back and you are right. I may have got Corvuus and Electra confused. I certainly had them high on my list.

You did keep your vote on Electra for a while though and you kept trying to make a case against her along with Sensfan.

I didn't throw the hammer on walle to save myself. You're doing a classic bad logic here, hammering town doesn't make someone scum.

No it doesn't, but if it wasn't for the wagon on Wall-E you would have been the one to get lynched. You were definetly saving yourself and as it turns out, at the expense of a townie.

I kept waiting and waiting for you to post the reply to my pbpa, but you didn't, so I decided to move on. And guess what, the reply came in twilight! Now there's a small chance that this was coincidence so I didn't vote you for that, but it does say something, doesn't it.

I am embarrassed to admit it, but I didn't realize at the time that the hammer had been thrown. I wouldn't have posted if it had realized it.

And for the record, I responded to your pbpa on me because Corvuus requested it.

[OverCaffeinated]

Third:
If possible, I would like to know everyone's top 2 scum list. As I mentioned, I think there is definitely 2 left and I want to know more than players just voting one person and not saying anything. It isn't acceptable at this point anymore to lynch like we lynched Wall-E.

Fourth:

I would also like to know everyone's top 2 town list. Who you think are leaning town and why. Example: I think OC's posts on Electra plausibly being 2nd doc make me think he is more pro-town. I would like everyone to do the same.

I think that Sirdanilot is scum and I think that you (Corvuus) is pro-town. At the moment, i don't have any other strong feelings one way or another about the other players. I felt for a while the Sensfan was pro-town, but now I'm not sure because of Sirdanilot. Same goes with Hitogoroshi, he seems to be supporting Sirdanilot without an apparent reason. Actually, I will certainly think about voting for him if Sirdanilot turns out to be scum.

Now that I think about it, Sensfan was the fourth vote on a day 1 lynch of a scum, and he hasn't really been supporting sirdanilot, but more of Sirdanilot supporting him. Maybe a case of scum trying to buddy up to a town player to get them to vote their way.

If I had to pick one more person that I think could be pro-town beside Corvuus, it would be iamausername. That is based totally on his vote for Afatchick on day one though.

I don't have a read on Omni. He doesn't post a lot and when he does, doesn't seem to take sides.

So in order from most scummy to least scummy
Sirdanilot
Hitogoroshi
Sensfan
Omni
Iamausername
Corvuus