Crackers! Mafia -- Game Over. See page 50

[Adel]

˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚

votecount as of post 424

_{with 13 alive, 7 will lynch before deadline}

˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚

¬curiouskarmadog:

4

:roflcopter, Yosarian2, DrippingGoofball, populartajo
Korts:

3

:Battle Mage, Elmo, destructor
Battle Mage:

2

:SensFan, Korts
Yosarian2:

2

:Kison, vollkan
Elmo:

1

:Raging Rabbit
DrippingGoofball:

1

:curiouskarmadog

No Lynch:

none

not voting:

none

˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚

Day 1's deadline is December 6th at 16:40(UTC)

Countdown timer to deadline

[DrippingGoofball]

I would like people speculate as to why Guardian was killed. No, really.

I thought it was obvious. We can rule out 'slipping on a banana peel.'

[Yosarian2]

Where have I even mentioned you?

My bad, I meant to say "Kison".

[Yosarian2]

Please accept my apologies. Your vote was based on "some weird feelings" rather than gut. That changes

everything

Well, I was certanly willing to explain why I had some weird feelings on him, what part of his behavior seemed weird to me.

Secondly, as has already been pointed out by Des and I it was implicit in the attacks on your vote that people wanted to know your reasoning. Thus, it's just sneaky of you to accuse Des of trying to get you to make a case on somebody else in lieu of CKD - when I know you are smart enough to ascertain that he would have wanted your thoughts on CKD

and

the others.

Is that really the impression you got when reading DES's posts? I didn't get that impression, at ALL.

He never actually seemed curious about why I was attacking CKD. Instead, first he said:

Vollkan and Yos, if not ckd, who would you be voting for? Why?

He then followed this up by first trying to get you to attack someone else who wasn't CKD:

Vollkan and Yos, if not ckd, who would you be voting for? Why?

Rofl. Reason: Ignoring my questions about his declaration of suspicion on SensFan.

Your vote was on ckd for gut. I'm finding it hard to believe that this is the next most suspicious thing you've seen in all 15 pages of this game. What are you thinking about Korts? SensFan? Yos? Elmo?

And with wanting me to make a case against someone who wasn't CKD:

Eh...other then ckd and Guardian, no one really stood out to me as especally scummy to me when I read through the thread. If there's a decent case against someone else, I'd like to hear it.

But you wouldn't like to make one yourself?

Note he was only asking this from people who were voting CKD; he wasn't asking anyone else to make cases on people. SO, again, I come back to the conclusion that either he suddenly had a problem with the CKD wagon, or else that he was trying to defend CKD for some other reason.

And then we get to your reasons for suspecting CKD:

Anyway, CKD's behavior this game has seemed really unusual; both in general, and compared to when I have played with him before. (I don't have much of a meta on him, having not played with him all that many times I think, but his behavior in this game really seems different).

This is entirely vague and doesn't even suggest he is scummy - unless changes in people's playstyle are inherently scummy.

I'm doing my best to explain my impressions here. Whatver the page count says, we're still pretty early in day 1 here. Besides, yes, a radical departure from someone's normal playstyle can be a scumtell.

He then turned and vote rofl, claiming his reason was "gut", even though at that point I thought rofl looked pretty town.

So the fact that his "gut" goes against yours makes him scummy?

Usually, when a pro-town person says "I have a gut feeling X is scum", I can kind of understand why they might think that, based on the thread. In this case, I don't, at all. So yes, that does make him a little scummy.

After that, he posted a lot, but didn't scumhunt at all; pretty much just argued semantics with rofl, ironically enough about you, with rofl saying you were "being" pro-town and him saying you might just be "acting" pro-town. But he never actually attacked you, or actually gave any real reasons for why he was voting rofl...meh.

When you voted CKD, you had just 2 previous posts. The first was an "I need to read up". The second was theory debating. I'm not saying this reason is invalid or anything, but it is a bit rich that one player who actually posts nothing can criticise another player for posting effectively nothing.

Not the same thing.

There were a few days when I didn't realize the game had started. If you really want to try to make a case that that somehow makes me scummy, be my guest.

Meanwhile, he was posting, he was just posting in a way the makes me think he was not a pro-town person trying to find scum. Read his early posts, see what you think about that.

I am having some trouble explaining this, which is probably why I first just said I was voting him for "weirdness" and was waiting for him to ask me for more details. In the early part of the game, he just wasn't playing, well, like town; he didn't really seem to be trying to find scum, he seemed like he was trying to do...I donno...something else, but not that.

You're better than this.

Unvote, Vote: Yosarian2

This is exactally why some people just say "gut", you know. Because whenever you try to explain exactally why you have a bad, scummy feeling about someone's posts, you get attacked for it.

I'm not trying to constuct a "logical case" here, really. I think CKD is scum, and I'm trying to explain what gave me that impression. You can either agree or disagree.

And what the hell do you mean, I'm better then this? It's early on day 1 and I've already caught a scum and figured out who one of his scum partners is. What more do you want?

[roflcopter]

vollkan, you're better than voting for someone by claiming "you're better than this"

yos, stop trying to take credit for catching the scum i caught

[curiouskarmadog]

wow, this is going to be one of those games that I feel like saying "I told you so" at the end of it....is that immature?...probably...rofl, curious, when I flip town, how are you going to rebound?

going to try to finish my update here today, since I had no time yesterday to complete.

[roflcopter]

you won't flip town, but the answer to that hypothetical question is "like a champ"

[DrippingGoofball]

roflcopter is the towniest player ever, all games included.

[Raging Rabbit]

I owe this game some serious catching up, hopefully tomorrow.

[curiouskarmadog]

Post 255

scum list:
ckd
guardian
elmo
bm?
kison?
korts?

in that order

curious what this list is to date...care to provide another..top 3 will be fine for me…also why would be good too.

Post 260

scum list:
ckd ✔
guardian

X

elmo

X

bm?

X

kison? ✔
korts? ✔
sensfan? ✔

didn’t see this during my skim before…you think I am scum (at this point)…why?..you never indicated why before

or really after this post

…in a quick skim (ahead) I see you address it…so I will address your post then.

Post 269

and elmo, how would you know anything about who is and isn't scum if you have no plans to actually read the thread until page 20?

This is actually a good point by rofl.

-_-_-
Just reading the game ROFL, you are not really scum hunting..you are basing almost every statement and theory on the notion I am scum…how are you going to bounce back like a champ, when your lack of anything correct Day 1 is exposed? I got an early read on you….sure it was gut…I might be wrong, but there wasn’t much to go on on page 4. I don’t think you are the scummiest (atm) and that little read is nothing compare to DGB…she is insane yes, but I have seen her actually attempt to scum hunt and provide insight it what is going on in other games. This game, she is not paying attention, just riding a wagon without providing anything…anyway I digress.
I am also interested…if I were to die this moment…and I flip town, who would be on your scum list..would it change?

-_-_-
Reading more(page 13), ROFL, does seem to be asking others questions(possibly scum hunting). However, noting that the game really only has 4-5 people really posting..everyone else is just popping in with one liners….

-_-_-

End of Page 13, Yos votes for me with little reason why (think later pages someone asks him about it and he does provide a reason)..getting there.

Don’t understand why everyone has DGB so protown at this point (page 14) in the game…SHE HAS DONE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING…how is that protown?

ROFL, Yos2, and Korts ….(might be missing another) all claim that DGB is being protown..based on what?

Ugh, BM uses a “your mom” joke..come on really?..even though it was in reference to another korts proclamation about how much DGB is town. Korts, at this point…why do you feel like DGB is town? Point to 2..just 2 things she has done at this point in that game (page 14) that she has done that is protown.

Post 331, Elmo explains why he thinks I am scum…but doesn’t vote me because I have 6 votes (at this point)…Elmo thinks korts is scum, because of his interactions with Des and Rofl..interesting.

Post 338, vollkan sort of argues part of my point about Des (being “so protown”), but at this point, still has his vote on me…ugh

-_-_-

Got to stop for now

At the top of page 15, where I was able to start skimming a little more in depth…there is a lot of meat on page 15…

I also see Pop joined the game with a vote on me…will get to that..Pop will be a better player than Zaizer, unless he flakes, which he sometimes does…

Sensfan, RR, BM, top two scum suspects? RR’s vote on Elmo, Sens vote of BM, and BM’s vote on korts are stale…still feeling them?..why?

Elmo, I have posted more in this game…you said you wanted to wait to vote me until you heard more from me..thoughts now? (if you have posted them in the past couple pages..I will get to them).

[destructor]

Yos seems to go the distance to misrepresent my play.

Vollkan covered the point on your gut, so far as it's definition goes. I can concede, though, that my curiosity about your actual reasons may not have been as evident as I thought.

I don't understand how you could describe my vote change and interaction with ckd in the way you have, even after asking me for clarification and

saying you understood

. Saying I "dropped suspicion of ckd completely" is obviously misrepresentative given that my change of vote was accompanied by messages like, "ckd, I still want you to answer my questions." I've even said I could switch back to ckd if I wanted to. Where in that do you see me completely dropping my suspicion of him?

I don't even know why you'd

begin

to say I'm defending ckd or how my questioning you and Vollkan can be construed as attacks.

I'm seriously wondering if you actually believe this cause to suspect me.

What you did instead (Drop your suspicion on him completly, move your vote to a different wagon, and begin to strongly defend him and attack everyone else on his wagon) is quite confusing if you really are a townie who previously thought he was suspicious looking, unless A. you thought there was new evidence pointing to him being town, or B. you never actually wanted to lynch him in the first place, you just wanted it to look like you did.

Because what you say I did isn't even true and even if I thought he was suspicious, and

still

think he is suspicious, I see nothing unusual, unexpected or suspicious, to the degree you're asserting here, about exploring in other avenues - there are more players in this game than ckd and Korts. A. doesn't even make sense anyway since I never indicated that I thought ckd was town. Even if it did, listing only one other possible explanation is overly simplistic and so fallacious.

Um, I just said no one else really stood out to me as scummy just yet, which kind of means that no, I'm not going to make a case against someone else. What, you expect me to catch the whole mafia in the first 4 real-life days of the game?

There's no need for hyperbole. If you didn't see anyone else as obviously scum in your first read, I'd expect you to do some rereading and look for new leads.

Who's using hyperbole? If one person looks significantly more scummy to me then anyone else, I'm not likely to go around making detailed cases on people I find less scummy. I'm certanly willing to listen to them though, and will keep an open mind.

You were using hyperbole:

What, you expect me to catch the whole mafia in the first 4 real-life days of the game?

Since when did pointing out a suspect necessitate catching an entire scum-team and making detailed cases? This was never what I asked you to do, so stop trying to make me sound unreasonable. And this is all aside from the point that, so far as I could tell, you were basically asking other people to hunt scum for you.

To sum it up, your entire case on me seems to be hinged on ckd being scum. If this turns out to be true, then maybe try bringing it up again. Until then, I'm only curious about how far you're willing to stretch this theory. Its basis is already a reach.

So.. why is ckd most likely to be scum?

Any reason you're only asking me this now?

I didn't see your vote as being particularly significant until I started questioning vollkan about rofl being his second suspect. It was the first and only vote you've placed and you made it for non-specific reasons. It became more meaningful to me in the time around the posts where it was discussed. Look back at those posts - I referred to your vote in vollkan's terms, since it was his take on it I was asking about.

I'm not sure what to make of vollkan's semi-defence of me or his delayed reaction to Yos' vote. It's not sitting well with me.

[Yosarian2]

I don't understand how you could describe my vote change and interaction with ckd in the way you have, even after asking me for clarification and

saying you understood

. Saying I "dropped suspicion of ckd completely" is obviously misrepresentative given that my change of vote was accompanied by messages like, "ckd, I still want you to answer my questions." I've even said I could switch back to ckd if I wanted to. Where in that do you see me completely dropping my suspicion of him?

Well, if I'm right and you had been distancing, then you wouldn't want it to look like you were dropping suspicion, but you never mentioned any suspicion on him after this point.

Again, the only reason you gave for dropping your vote on CKD is that you didn't want him at lynch -1. Which, again, I can kind of see, but I don't see how him going to lynch -1 means you take your vote off him and put it on someone else.

Or, to put it another way; if CKD was your main suspect when you were voting him, then why isn't he your main suspect now? He's not at lynch -1 anymore.

I don't even know why you'd

begin

to say I'm defending ckd or how my questioning you and Vollkan can be construed as attacks.

I think that your questions both to me and to Volkan look like you might have been trying to get us to vote someone else, to move attention away from CKD and towards someone else.

I'm seriously wondering if you actually believe this cause to suspect me.

Well, it's only valid if we lynch CKD and he comes up as scum. But if he does, then yes, you would currently be my #1 suspect for his scumbuddy, because it seems like you only wanted to be on his wagon as long as he was in no danger; as soon as he did, you got off the wagon, moved to a different wagon, and started questioning other people on the wagon and trying to get them to change to a different target.

What you did instead (Drop your suspicion on him completly, move your vote to a different wagon, and begin to strongly defend him and attack everyone else on his wagon) is quite confusing if you really are a townie who previously thought he was suspicious looking, unless A. you thought there was new evidence pointing to him being town, or B. you never actually wanted to lynch him in the first place, you just wanted it to look like you did.

Because what you say I did isn't even true and even if I thought he was suspicious, and

still

think he is suspicious, I see nothing unusual, unexpected or suspicious, to the degree you're asserting here, about exploring in other avenues - there are more players in this game than ckd and Korts. A. doesn't even make sense anyway since I never indicated that I thought ckd was town. Even if it did, listing only one other possible explanation is overly simplistic and so fallacious.

Well, that is based on my earlier logic where I explained why I think that you are, in fact, trying to break up the CKD wagon, which it looks to me like you are; if you are, then those are the only two motivations I can think of for why you would want to do that.

Since when did pointing out a suspect necessitate catching an entire scum-team and making detailed cases? This was never what I asked you to do, so stop trying to make me sound unreasonable. And this is all aside from the point that, so far as I could tell, you were basically asking other people to hunt scum for you.

To sum it up, your entire case on me seems to be hinged on ckd being scum. If this turns out to be true, then maybe try bringing it up again.

Absolutly. Best time to start probing and looking for someone's scum partners are before they are lynched, since reactions during that period give much more information. So, yes, my entire case on you is based on a possible link to CKD, and I would only vote for you based on that case after (and if) CKD was lynched and confiremd scum.

[DrippingGoofball]

CKD's last post is full of opinions completely opposed to those that I haved formed so far in this game.

This would be astonishing- if he were town. If he's scum, then it's hardly surprising.

[roflcopter]

Just reading the game ROFL, you are not really scum hunting

thats a lie

curious what this list is to date...care to provide another..top 3 will be fine for me…also why would be good too.

sure, updated list:
ckd
bm
sensfan
elmo

if I were to die this moment…and I flip town, who would be on your scum list..would it change?

you won't, but i'll humor you. if you flip town, i would have to take a very close look at yos and vollkan

[roflcopter]

dear vollkan,

here is my concrete reason for suspecting sensfan

he has done nothing but make jokes and get involved in theory debates. zero scum hunting. even his bm vote, here:

Vote: BM

for a self-vote followed by a No Lynch vote.

which he's stuck to since the beginning, is for theoretical points, not actual scumtells.

this is scummy in and of itself, but it is coupled with the fact that his stances in all of the debates he's gotten into have directly worked to benefit ckd.

finally, he is active elsewhere on the site, but he's very noticeably absent here.

satisfied?

lots of love,
roflcopter

ps, in light of sussing this out for myself, you can safely switch bm and sensfans' places on the updated list i just posted.

[Battle Mage]

I have a rather interesting idea. DGB, where were you on Thursday?

BM

[Raging Rabbit]

Ok, read up.

I think CKD's early attack on rofl for buddying up is very unconvincing, but rofl's stance that CKD's scummy for not accepting des as auto town is reaching as well. I can buy CKD's attack as an attempt to justify his gut, and rofl was OMGUSy but is giving me a general town vibe. The whole exchange seems like a disproportioned early game argument. I think it's likely town-town. I don't think CKD self voting under pressure is indicative of much, either, since the exmaple he provided shows it fits his meta. Not really seeing any other merit to the case on him.

I don't think the link yos is trying to achieve between des and CKD holds any merit, and on the whole he comes up looking pretty bad from his exchange with des.

Also, I find it odd that Korts, Volkan, and Destuctor are all all attacking for my vote on CKD and yet not one has shown the slightest bit of curiosity for why I am voting him.

Here it's bad that people suspected him based on his unexplained vote on CKD and didn't ask what the reasons were (though as was said before, suspicion based on lack of explanation implies interest in said explanation).

Any reason you're only asking me this now?

When des bluntly asks what the reasons are, per Yos' request, Yos casts that in a questionable light as well.

This is exactally why some people just say "gut", you know. Because whenever you try to explain exactally why you have a bad, scummy feeling about someone's posts, you get attacked for it.

I'm not trying to constuct a "logical case" here, really. I think CKD is scum, and I'm trying to explain what gave me that impression. You can either agree or disagree.

Here in response to Vollkan's vote on on him, suddenly the reasoning for the CKD vote shoud've stayed at "gut" because his attempt to explain his logic got him attacked as well - though in the above quote he was all for explaining this. Very odd that he seems to hold the opposite opinion here, as if the only reason he explained in the first place was to say "I told you it should've statyed at gut."


DGB is acting way wackier than in the former and only other game I played with her, not sure what it means but I tend to see it as more of a scumtell since she's screwing up with everyone's scumdar and isn't doing much at this point to stir discussion. I'd like the people who think she's pro town to explain exactly why.


In addition to my strong gut feeling that he's scum here, Korts isn't doing any real scumhunting - case on Guardian was based on a missrep and Korts fizzled it out, now he's attacking BM who's always a comfortable target, for bad reasons - would BM off Guardian after buddying up to him? That's a giant WIFOM trap, not cause for a vote, and the only other reason I'm seeing is BM possibly missunderstanding rofl's intention, which means a grand total of nothing - as well as probing a ton of other subjects that are noncomittal and distract from his actual "case". Also his explanation for a town read on DGB makes no sense, when BM rightly said that pursuing suspicions (which DGB did in a way I believe she knew would not be taken too seriously) is a null tell, Korts answers:

Ok, let me elaborate on that gut feel after all. DGBscum doesn't have any motive to be elbows deep in shit while she mimes scumhunting. DGB's actions so far have been pro-town, therefore I have no reason to suspect her. Why are you trying to dig any deeper when what we're discussing is a

town

read on someone?

Where are you seeing DGB elbows deep in shit? Are we even reading the same game? She's under no pressure at all...
The second sentence is a circular argument, and doesn't actually say anything.
Most importantly, your own case on BM is trying to dig deeper into his

town

read on Guardian. I find this inconsistency is very scummy.

Unvote, vote Korts. Fos Yos.

[roflcopter]

dgb gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. that has no bearing on her alignment at all, i just like her.

i also find her townish in this game.

ragingrabbit, what is your opinion of sensfan? post 441 left him out entirely.

[Raging Rabbit]

dgb gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. that has no bearing on her alignment at all, i just like her.

i also find her townish in this game.

Why? Pure gut?

ragingrabbit, what is your opinion of sensfan? post 441 left him out entirely.

It left many people out, I dislike commenting on players I don't have much to say about.
Sens said very little thus far, I never played with him in the past but I take it that this isn't his normal playstyle. I think we're too early in the game to take this as a very strong tell, so I'd say neutral to scummy.

[roflcopter]

more like intuition. that sounds better than gut, maybe vollkan won't have to go on another tirade because of it.

[Korts]

]In addition to my strong gut feeling that he's scum here, Korts isn't doing any real scumhunting - case on Guardian was based on a missrep and Korts fizzled it out, now he's attacking BM who's always a comfortable target, for bad reasons - would BM off Guardian after buddying up to him?

This question is based on an assumption that isn't really based on any evidence. Why are you assuming the Guardian kill was a scumkill unless you took part in deciding it?

Where are you seeing DGB elbows deep in shit? Are we even reading the same game? She's under no pressure at all...

You misunderstand me. When I said "elbows deep in shit" I was saying that she's not afraid to stir up shit with her bare hands, as in fishing for emotions, reactions etc.

The second sentence is a circular argument, and doesn't actually say anything.

Shouting WIFOM at every hint of it is idiocy and a way to be acting like you're scumhunting. Again, looking at the motivations for her actions, I have the impression that she has slightly more motivation to be stirring up shit the way she's doing as town than as scum. Ignoring the motivations and running around screaming WIFOM isn't exactly a logical reply.

Most importantly, your own case on BM is trying to dig deeper into his town read on Guardian. I find this inconsistency is very scummy.

This comment carries heavy implications without you having provided any proof. Where was I doing that? Quotes plz.

If you can't explain why you made the assumption of Guardian being a scumkill, why you think it's WIFOM to explore the motivations for certain ways of behaviour, and how I was attacking BM for his town read on Guardian, my vote will be more than happy to visit you for an extended stay.

[Raging Rabbit]

This question is based on an assumption that isn't really based on any evidence. Why are you assuming the Guardian kill was a scumkill unless you took part in deciding it?

Because Guardian makes no sense as a vig kill, and we're not even sure we have a vig. I can't completely rule it out, but I'm willing to assume the far, far liklier option.

You misunderstand me. When I said "elbows deep in shit" I was saying that she's not afraid to stir up shit with her bare hands, as in fishing for emotions, reactions etc.

Why can't that be a scum move? It carries no real bad implications for her and gives the appearance that she's actually scumhunting.

Shouting WIFOM at every hint of it is idiocy and a way to be acting like you're scumhunting. Again, looking at the motivations for her actions, I have the impression that she has slightly more motivation to be stirring up shit the way she's doing as town than as scum. Ignoring the motivations and running around screaming WIFOM isn't exactly a logical reply.

I just realized I meant third sentence, which is:

DGB's actions so far have been pro-town, therefore I have no reason to suspect her.

Circular argument, says nothing. Wasn't talking about WIFOM here. The BM-Guardian link that was part of your attack on BM is a WIFOM trap in light of his kill, I'm surprised you didn't comment on the kill in relation to BM before.

This comment carries heavy implications without you having provided any proof. Where was I doing that? Quotes plz.

Firstly, I didn't know how else to phrase it. Secondly, it was you who were implying you knew Guardian was town. Since there are no pro-town linked roles on the front page, this doesn't sit well with me, particularly because you didn't outright state that you thought Guardian was town, but tried to plant the thought of Guardiantown with a passing comment. I'd have had no problem with you stating that you have a town read on Guardian, what I do have a problem with is you trying to pass it as almost a suggestion.

Right here.

If you can't explain why you made the assumption of Guardian being a scumkill, why you think it's WIFOM to explore the motivations for certain ways of behaviour, and how I was attacking BM for his town read on Guardian, my vote will be more than happy to visit you for an extended stay.

What good does this threat do you?

[DrippingGoofball]

dgb gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. that has no bearing on her alignment at all, i just like her.

Quote added on my wiki page.

@RR, why doesn't Guardian's kill make sense as a vig kill? In what way do you think it makes sense?

@BM. I'm retired. I've become a little fuzzy on 'days of the week.' I also seem to be unable to tell the words 'Guardian' and 'curiouskarmadog' apart, though I blame it on one ending, and the other starting, with the letter 'g'.

[roflcopter]

dgb gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. that has no bearing on her alignment at all, i just like her.

Quote added on my wiki page.

i'm famous!

[Adel]

bumping votecount to next page...