Crackers! Mafia -- Game Over. See page 50

[Korts]

Hmm.

Unvote
Vote: Korts

ckd, I still want to see you responding to the posts I mentioned.

I understand your sentiment, but I gotta ask: why now? If you weren't comfortable with CKD at L-1, why were you content to have him at L-2 before, when basically that was the same thing?

[Korts]

As I said at the time, I didn't like his Guardian vote. Accusing Guardian of being "non-committal" when it clearly wasn't the case that Guardian was shirking from having an opinion - he was simply letting CKD fight his own battles. "Non-committal" is just like "WIFOM" - it carries powerful implications, but is open to abuse. Later on, when I pointed this out, he then changed tact and argued that Guardian should be arguing in CKD's defence - leaving a silence as to what was scummy about this

I think that you weren't the first to point it out, actually. And I "changed tact" because I realized that I had mislabelled Guardian's action as something far scummier. Not defending CKD when he doesn't agree with the case is only mildly scummy, as I think I expressed.

His accusation that Rofl was buddying up by asking why Yos was on a list also seems a bit of a stretch.

Yes. That was a false start at scumhunting.

though it should be noted, that I have also self voted as scum too (though I dont think in Day 1)..so the self vote from me, should be taking at the most as a null tell.

This post almost made me give CKD slight town points, but then again, there's no motivation for town either to bring attention to the fact that he does it as scum, too. The "(though I don't think in Day 1)" corollary seems a bit fabricated and seems to want to imply that he wouldn't do such a thing Day 1 and he's therefore town for doing so now.

Not sure how my vote on rofl was OMGUS when I voted him first (which started this whole mess).

I thought I clarified it enough times that I meant

case

instead of vote. Your initial vote seemed like another random one, but the way you presented your case after rofl attacked you made me think that you made that case only

because

rofl attacked you.

You make good observations/theories here. My reaction to rofl wasn’t a knee jerk, but I can see maybe how one might think that. I was mostly angered how rofl refused to answer my question and only through out more crap…then I was upset that no one else really seemed to see what I was seeing (at the time) I agree with your thoughts here though…it is easy for people to say “I agree with X” if someone knows that X is town and is getting ready to get hung…it might by the town creds later…is that what Korts is doing?..I don’t know…but like I have said, those who scream X is town the most, is probably scum…

How was I saying "I agree with X"? At most I was saying that I don't find a change of vote particularly suspicious. I don't especially like how now that your wagon seems to have died down you start pushing the one that was the second biggest.

I had been away from the game for a few days and hadn't had a better place in mind to stash it, as I said in the block you quoted.

That much was clear. But what purpose did it serve in your opinion if it was admittedly temporary and in no way expressive of an intent to lynch or pressure?

[Adel]

˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚

votecount as of post 401

_{with 13 alive, 7 will lynch before deadline}

˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚

¬Korts:

4

:ZazieR, Battle Mage, Elmo, destructor
curiouskarmadog:

4

:roflcopter, vollkan, Yosarian2, DrippingGoofball
Battle Mage:

2

:SensFan, Korts
Elmo:

1

:Raging Rabbit
DrippingGoofball:

1

:curiouskarmadog
Yosarian2:

1

:Kison

No Lynch:

none

not voting:

none

˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚

Day 1's deadline is December 6th at 16:40(UTC)

Countdown timer to deadline

[Kison]

I had been away from the game for a few days and hadn't had a better place in mind to stash it, as I said in the block you quoted.

That much was clear. But what purpose did it serve in your opinion if it was admittedly temporary and in no way expressive of an intent to lynch or pressure?

The reason I chose to place my vote on Zazier is that at the time of that post, I specifically recall thinking to myself that she was the player from whom I'd seen a severe lack of content(she had made a grand total of two posts, both of which didn't address anything in a very serious manner). Therefore, instead of leaving my vote idle, I chose to place it on her in hopes of pulling her from whatever hole she had crawled under, hence the 'where are you?' comment.

[Yosarian2]

Destructor; first, you unvote CKD, then you ask two other people on the wagon what other wagon they'd be happy with. Why? Is there some reason you suddenly don't like the CKD wagon and want to stop it?

[destructor]

I didn't like the ckd wagon being at L-1. I see no merit in having a wagon that strong where discussion has been relatively limited and some players have contributed little. I already explained that I had moved my vote to my second suspect, levelling the two wagons. I could easily switch back to ckd if I wanted to, making him the deadline lynch, just as much as anyone could change which wagon is leading with a single vote. (Note that since DGB unvoted ckd, Korts has become the deadline lynch).

I asked you and vollkan who else you'd vote for because... I didn't know who else you suspected. Can you answer now?

[Adel]

populartajo replaces ZazieR, by request. I thank ZazieR for replacing out early while it was still easy to find a replacement, and without requiring me to send prods.

Thanks for replacing in populartajo!

[populartajo]

Hi guys. Will reread the thread and come up with something
In the meanwhile, anyone would like to explain me the game in few words and make a brief summary of everything going on here, like why Korts has 4 votes and such?

[Yosarian2]

I didn't like the ckd wagon being at L-1. I see no merit in having a wagon that strong where discussion has been relatively limited and some players have contributed little.

Yeah, but...it was only at L -1 because he put it there. That dosn't seem like any kind of reason to unvote him...

I already explained that I had moved my vote to my second suspect, levelling the two wagons. I could easily switch back to ckd if I wanted to, making him the deadline lynch, just as much as anyone could change which wagon is leading with a single vote. (Note that since DGB unvoted ckd, Korts has become the deadline lynch).

Yeah...I understand.

Can you explain why you find Korts suspicious?

I asked you and vollkan who else you'd vote for because... I didn't know who else you suspected. Can you answer now?

Eh...other then ckd and Guardian, no one really stood out to me as especally scummy to me when I read through the thread. If there's a decent case against someone else, I'd like to hear it.

[destructor]

Korts, L-1 and L-2 aren't anywhere near the same thing. I'll point to those reachy arguments soon.

Yos made no pretences about having anything other than gut. As I said, I don't like Yos's vote, but there is a difference between casting a vote and stating it is based on gut (bad enough, imo) and casting a vote which is apparently based on something non-gut but then seemingly avoiding actually explaining what that 'something' is and why it is actually scummier.

But Yos left ckd at

L-1

! rofl didn't even vote for Sens! How is rofl's action more significant than Yos'?

It is reaching…but NOT THAT reachy. It was early in the game…I upgraded my random vote (korts) to rofl who I felt might be making some scummy posts…and while you deem this as not prodding or probing, look at the reaction to come out of it. Now, I am not saying I did this for a reaction, but I didn’t do it to be safe either. I would not have advocated lynching rofl at the moment based on that, but it was enough for me to change my vote.

I should clarify. By saying it wasn't prodding or probing, I meant that you were actually accusing rofl of being scum. I should have said that it was

more than

prodding and probing. The quotes I posted made this evident. I didn't like the fact that you tried to downplay how serious you were about it all ("I am not trying to parade it as anything else").

Nothing..couple jokes..random votes…he wasn’t doing much of anything..but that was what most of goes on Day 1 in the first pages of a game…it was different in rofl play…I assume you are asking me about Korts at this point because I had my random vote on him…but what did anybody do in the first 5 pages of the game…other than BM spamming the thread..nothing really got this game going until my attack of rofl.

to me, just seems like someone who is trying to look like they are scum hunting...again this is just a couple pages into the game.

My question is, really, what made rofl's scum-hunting seem forced but Korts' seem genuine? For example, do you think Korts' suggestion that rofl was trying to buddy up to Yos wasn't tenuous and forced?

Given that it's been pointed out that BM has declared that you're town past the random stage, can you answer rofl's questions here again?

ckd, kison: how does bm's declaration that ckd is protown differ from my own about des, and why has it gone ignored by you two up to this point?

[destructor]

I didn't like the ckd wagon being at L-1. I see no merit in having a wagon that strong where discussion has been relatively limited and some players have contributed little.

Yeah, but...it was only at L -1 because he put it there. That dosn't seem like any kind of reason to unvote him...

You weren't concerned about the day ending earlier than was necessary?

Eh...other then ckd and Guardian, no one really stood out to me as especally scummy to me when I read through the thread. If there's a decent case against someone else, I'd like to hear it.

But you wouldn't like to make one yourself?

I cover some of my reasons for suspecting Korts in Post 214. It's that plus other impressions I get that make me think he's not really trying to catch scum. The "rofl's buddying up to Yos" comment is one of them. "Guardian is on the fence" is another. I'll make a list later.

Tajo, hi again.

In the meanwhile, anyone would like to explain me the game in few words and make a brief summary of everything going on here, like why Korts has 4 votes and such?

It'd be better if you did that all for yourself.
Also, if we make it to end-game, please don't get all tunnel-visioned on me again. :p

[vollkan]

is it easier for you if i just say its a gut feeling that i can't quantify based on those posts in particular which i pointed out?

It would save me having to ask, but would constitute a black mark against you for leading me down this stupid path of pointing me to posts that you seem to be admitting contain nothing.

i'm unclear on why this is such a big deal, sens is one of many people who caught my eye, but i'm obviously not trying to lynch him right now, and its hardly the most important aspect of my overall play in this game. it seems like nitpicking to be taking issue with that.

It's not nitpicking. The impression I have held from the beginning was that everything you were saying might as well be pure BS for all I know - given the dismal lack of any explanation. So, I tried my luck at testing how you'd react if pressed for reasons.

You pointed me to a set of posts that meant nothing and then danced around the fact whilst I repeatedly asked you. And now you try and back out by dismissing it all as "gut". I'm unimpressed, to say the least.

Vollkan, aren't "solidly based" suspicions just as affected by people acting rationally and calmly as pure gut reads, if not moreso? I believe it's easier for experienced/talented scum to look pro town from the rational analyst's point of view than from the gut player's. It's very hard to tell what a solid player's gut read is based on, but there is a form of behavior that's sort of universally considered pro town upon a rational analysis, which is hard to fake, but possible especially early in the game. For example rofl is ranked highest on your scale mostly, it seems to me, because he isn't as good at rationally explaining himself as most of the others are. (That's not to say a rational look at things isn't helpful, or that an empty gut feeling is sustance enough for a lynch, but I believe you're best off intially relaying on your gut for all reads.)

No. Every argument in this game about what nature of tell something is depends on a set of assumptions about what is a reasonable explanation. I don't consider calm or logical play as a towntell. I consider things to be towntells where the assumptions underpinning logic are reasonable (as an example: I found CKD's hypocrisy scummy. In doing so, I make an assumption that it is more reaosnable to say his action was scummy than that it was just a mistake. That's largely because it's hard to read error into the post, given how clear he was. There is also a policy dimension to it - if we are prepared to shrug our shoulders at everything which could possibly be a mistake, we'd never find scum).

Gut play avoids both the logic and the assumption. It's unknowable. I cannot now subject Rofl's SensFan reasons to analysis, or determine the reasonableness of his assumptions - because he has completely internalised them by redudincg them to gut

But Yos left ckd at L-1! rofl didn't even vote for Sens! How is rofl's action more significant than Yos'?

Damn, that's an excellent point. I was focussing exclusively on their reasoning, without any connection between them and what was actually happening in game. The fact of the vote being L-1 just didn't connect in my head. I mean, my natural tendency is to treat a vote not any differently from a declaration of suspicion, because the way I scumhunt is reasoning analysis. But the fact of it being L-1 changes this enormously. @ Yos - How is a gut vote acceptable at L-1 stage?

Post 215, vollkan says it was a joke vote. Did you give me any indication that your vote was a joke?

As I said before:

CKD, since when have I been the type to vote seriously based on the use of "gut" alone? Since when have I been the type to preface my votes with "obv scum"? You know better than most how much I tend to vacillate and obsess about different possibilities.

Not sure why vollkan vote is still on me at this point…it was a joke vote, then you talk about a double standard..do you feel I am now scummy because you perceive me as a hypocrite?

I'll quote the relevant passages:

I didnt like these questions on page 3..who thinks anyone is town on Page 3 of Day 1...I thought maybe he was trying to get conversation started..but just seemed too forced to me.

What do you mean by "forced"?

to me, just seems like someone who is trying to look like they are scum hunting

Reaching. I don't see how you can say that such questions are indicative of an attempt to appear scumhunting, rather than just early an effort to scum hunt or at least spur discussion.

the vote is on page 5...it is gut..there is nothing more to go on this early in the game...

of course I am fucking reaching..it is early in the game..i am trying to scum hunt. lynch me if you need to for my gut vote on page 5...essentially you are voting me for the exact same reason, vollkan..you think i am reaching and your gut says that is scummy....I think he is trying to earn friends..it was a gut reaction..which is why I said in my vote "lets see where this goes" and didnt present a case with it. Vollkan you have seen me vote on my gut NUMEROUS times as town in the passed...funny you seem to be forgetting that now..why is that? Out of everyone in the game YOU should know I vote gut frequently..we have even discussed it before...noted.

You don't know a joke vote when you see one.

CKD, since when have I been the type to vote seriously based on the use of "gut" alone? Since when have I been the type to preface my votes with "obv scum"? You know better than most how much I tend to vacillate and obsess about different possibilities.

Let me state without qualification that, whilst I generally take issue with unreasoned votes, I know CKD's meta and know that, in his case, gut is (albeit to my disdain) normal. Not that this is a warrant for CKD to give no reasons or anything, but I've learned to give up trying to make my case against gut for him

also vollkan, those questions seemed out of place..it didnt set right with me...this OF COURSE is reaching...I stated several times it wasnt a case...I am not trying to parade it as anything else..it seemed force because they didnt make any sense..."vollkan, who do you think is town" (or something of the like) on page 3-4 IS forced. it looks like someone trying to LOOK like they are doing something without really doing anything.

This point is serious though, lest my gut humour confuse you. CKD, I find it something of a double standard that when you go after something in a manner which, by your own admission is "reaching", then it is acceptable as early game scumhunting. But, when somebody else asks stupid questions, it is "forced" and an attempt to "appear" to be scumhunting. What say you?

[Yosarian2]

You weren't concerned about the day ending earlier than was necessary?

Meh. Not really. I certanly am not going to unvote him just because he voted himself. I'm voting him because I think he's more likely to be scum then anyone else at the moment, and I'm not going to be detered from that by a self-vote, which is itself basically an anti-town action. Hey, if even he thinks he should be lynched, why should I argue?

Of course, he's not really voting himself because he thinks he should be lynched. Most likely, he's doing it because he thinks that him voting himself will manipulate other people into unvote him, and I don't see any reason to give that kind of tactic. If he dosn't want to be at lynch -1, he should unvote himself.

The one thing that bugs me is the timing of Guardian's death; the fact that he died just as he was defending CKD does make me wonder. Of course, that's probably too obvious.

Eh...other then ckd and Guardian, no one really stood out to me as especally scummy to me when I read through the thread. If there's a decent case against someone else, I'd like to hear it.

But you wouldn't like to make one yourself?

Um, I just said no one else really stood out to me as scummy just yet, which kind of means that no, I'm not going to make a case against someone else. What, you expect me to catch the whole mafia in the first 4 real-life days of the game?

[Yosarian2]

Also, I find it odd that Korts, Volkan, and Destuctor are all all attacking for my vote on CKD and yet not one has shown the slightest bit of curiosity for why I am voting him.

[destructor]

I thought my pointing out that your vote was based on gut made this implicit. Vollkan just asked you if that justified it too.

Um, I just said no one else really stood out to me as scummy just yet, which kind of means that no, I'm not going to make a case against someone else. What, you expect me to catch the whole mafia in the first 4 real-life days of the game?

There's no need for hyperbole. If you didn't see anyone else as obviously scum in your first read, I'd expect you to do some rereading and look for new leads.

So.. why is ckd most likely to be scum?

[Elmo]

Tajo is all growed up! =)

Gut play avoids both the logic and the assumption. It's unknowable. I cannot now subject Rofl's SensFan reasons to analysis, or determine the reasonableness of his assumptions - because he has completely internalised them by redudincg them to gut

I suppose it won't come as a surprise that I don't have a problem with rofl's play. I think the big thing is that I find it (his stance on Sens) informative, indeed somewhat moreso than some people who

have

posted their reasoning. Does that seem bizarre to you?

Do you frequently find that shaky logic indicates scum? I've thought that approach tends to end in the lynch of whoever is least skilled in the use of logic. In the worst case, can scum not simply say "oh, I was wrong"? I am genuinely intrigued by people who are smart but significantly disagree with me.

Also, I find it odd that Korts, Volkan, and Destuctor are all all attacking for my vote on CKD and yet not one has shown the slightest bit of curiosity for why I am voting him.

Yos.. what

precisely

is the intent behind this post?

I would like people speculate as to why Guardian was killed. No, really.

[vollkan]

Also, I find it odd that Korts, Volkan, and Destuctor are all all attacking for my vote on CKD and yet not one has shown the slightest bit of curiosity for why I am voting him.

As Des says, when people attack a vote because it lacks justification, it's implicit at the very least that they want to know why you cast the vote.

I suppose it won't come as a surprise that I don't have a problem with rofl's play. I think the big thing is that I find it (his stance on Sens) informative, indeed somewhat moreso than some people who have posted their reasoning. Does that seem bizarre to you?

Depends on what you are looking for. Would it be a fair characterisation to say that you seem to want to know what rofl's opinion is, whereas I want to know why he holds that opinion?

Do you frequently find that shaky logic indicates scum? I've thought that approach tends to end in the lynch of whoever is least skilled in the use of logic. In the worst case, can scum not simply say "oh, I was wrong"? I am genuinely intrigued by people who are smart but significantly disagree with me.

Not logic per se. As you say, that would simply mean that poor debaters end up being lynched. What I look for mostly are the reasons why people identify certain things as scummy. As I just said, the set of assumptions underpinning their attacks/declarations of towniness.

The way I see it, people can always put anything onto mistake. Rofl can simply say "Maybe my gut was mistaken", so this is by no means a problem restricted to logical playstyles. Ultimately, I think you always have to allow for human error in this game, but an unreasonable error shouldn't relieve people of culpability.

I would like people speculate as to why Guardian was killed. No, really.

He wasn't looking noticeably scummy at the time, so it would surprise me if it was a vig-kill. That also probably serves as a rationale for a scum kill of him.

[Yosarian2]

I thought my pointing out that your vote was based on gut made this implicit. Vollkan just asked you if that justified it too.

You talked about how my vote was based on gut (which, by the way, I never said), but then, rather then ask me why I was suspicious of CKD, you tried to get me to make a case on someone else. Your whole behavior in regards to CKD here has been incredibly odd. Between that, your really bizzare "he voted himself so I'm going to unvote him and push a different wagon" vote change at the moment he first started to actually be in danger, and the fact that you've avoided asking me why I suspect him (perhaps you didn't want me to give reasons?) all make me wonder if you were just distancing him before and are now trying to derail his wagon. The first part especally; you were voting for him BEFORE he self voted; did you think he was the most suspicious person at that time? If you did, then I could se you either keeping your vote in place, or if you were REALLY paranoid about the whole lynch -1 thing I could see you unvoting with a comment about how you're only unvoting to get him away from lynch -1 but how you expect your vote to go back there if his play dosn't improve, or something like that. What you did instead (Drop your suspicion on him completly, move your vote to a different wagon, and begin to strongly defend him and attack everyone else on his wagon) is quite confusing if you really are a townie who previously thought he was suspicious looking, unless A. you thought there was new evidence pointing to him being town, or B. you never actually wanted to lynch him in the first place, you just wanted it to look like you did.

I tried to give you the benifit of the doubt, asking you:

Destructor; first, you unvote CKD, then you ask two other people on the wagon what other wagon they'd be happy with. Why? Is there some reason you suddenly don't like the CKD wagon and want to stop it?

But you didn't have a good answer at all, saying only you didn't want him at lynch -1. Which dosn't at all explain why you voted someone else, why you attacked everyone else on his wagon, or why your vote did not go back to CKD now that he's no longer in immediate danger of a quicklynch.

If CKD does turn out to be scum, I expect to be voting for you tommorow.

Um, I just said no one else really stood out to me as scummy just yet, which kind of means that no, I'm not going to make a case against someone else. What, you expect me to catch the whole mafia in the first 4 real-life days of the game?

There's no need for hyperbole. If you didn't see anyone else as obviously scum in your first read, I'd expect you to do some rereading and look for new leads.

Who's using hyperbole? If one person looks significantly more scummy to me then anyone else, I'm not likely to go around making detailed cases on people I find less scummy. I'm certanly willing to listen to them though, and will keep an open mind.

So.. why is ckd most likely to be scum?

Any reason you're only asking me this now?

Anyway, CKD's behavior this game has seemed really unusual; both in general, and compared to when I have played with him before. (I don't have much of a meta on him, having not played with him all that many times I think, but his behavior in this game really seems different).

He then turned and vote rofl, claiming his reason was "gut", even though at that point I thought rofl looked pretty town.

After that, he posted a lot, but didn't scumhunt at all; pretty much just argued semantics with rofl, ironically enough about you, with rofl saying you were "being" pro-town and him saying you might just be "acting" pro-town. But he never actually attacked you, or actually gave any real reasons for why he was voting rofl...meh.

I am having some trouble explaining this, which is probably why I first just said I was voting him for "weirdness" and was waiting for him to ask me for more details. In the early part of the game, he just wasn't playing, well, like town; he didn't really seem to be trying to find scum, he seemed like he was trying to do...I donno...something else, but not that.

[Yosarian2]

Also, I find it odd that Korts, Volkan, and Destuctor are all all attacking for my vote on CKD and yet not one has shown the slightest bit of curiosity for why I am voting him.

Yos.. what

precisely

is the intent behind this post?

It didn't seem odd to you, that they were just flatly declaring my vote on CKD to be "gut", rather then, like, bothering to ask me for the reasons behind my actions?

I would say the intent behind my post was to try and start to flush out possible CKD scumbuddies.

[populartajo]

I am making notes at the same time I am reading the thread so I am going to do this the most understandable possible.

Here we go.

Page 1-4. Random stage. Notably BM, CKD and DGB making random accusations. Some CKD-BM rubbing in the first pages.
Page 5. Korts suspects rolf for picking Yos. CKD joins. Rolf likes to ask who is the most protown player. Des feels town.
Argg, CKD feels scummy in 114. And he continues until 121. Bringing non related things to make rolf look bad.
Ah, the guy notices in 124. Yeah, rolf is also prob town which makes CKD look even worse.
131 the same distracting question. I dont like how CKD keeps pushing the question: acting town vs being town.
132 CKD starts making a little sense but I think its late.
Hah, DGB agrees with me. Des and vollkan join shortly.
Kison's 138 is interesting. Will be good to look after.
Oh 139. "Noted". Noted.
CKD is fighting hard after.
Des's 145 is glorious.
Sensfan's 148 will be good to look after.
Some Kison-rolf fight, BM joins shortly, votes des, votes DGB, jokes and jokes, when is he going to learn?
Rolf's 172 is valid.
More BM random shit.
193. Hey RR you are late.
Guardian's 195. Interesting post.
Elmo's 204. Hey, dude you are also late.
210. LMAO.
Guardian and Vollkan debating about self-voting. Booring,
Nice, 220 has a vote hidden in all the sea of text. Guardian voes DGB.
Pretty much convinced both rolf and des are probtown. Not sure about Korts but CKD is prob scum.
More proofs that rolf is prob town with Elmo's birds.
Kison's 249 shows rolf unvoting. Possible backtracking. Would be good to look after.
RR feels town in 251 except for the Elmo vote.
I agree more with Elmo's list in 260 than with rolf's one.
BM's vote in 267 is retarded.
BM's 272. Rolfmao.
Vollkan interrogates rolf.
300. Fuck its like the 100th time BM votes rolf.
Ouch, some BM-rolf fbashing.
Here comes Yosarian. Lets see if I agree with him.... Yeah, partially. Votes CKD.
Korts votes BM.
Sidenote : where the fuck is CKD?
BM votes Korts. This realation seems interesting.
331. Yep, Elmo is prob the same town suffering to make a long post.
Argg, Elmo, Volkan and Yos start his mini debate theory game.
CKD votes himself. Yep, Ive seen that too.
Guardian is killed after making a lot of sense. Not sure why Elmo thinks scum did this NK but I dont think he as scum would have made that comment.
Wait. What are CKD and DGB talking about?
Vollkan and des have a nice chat. But Im too tired to look at it.
Come on. 2 more pages.
RR comes back in 378. More questions. Dont like this.
Ah, that explains it. DGB is blind.
More Vollkan-des-Yosarian chat. I am tired, will read them prob later.

[populartajo]

Conclusion

.
Either rolf and des are manipulating me like shit but they really scream town to me. DGB also felt town until he had that chat with CKD some pages ago, totally exaggerating an hypothesis the later brought to the table.
Elmo hasnt posted much but he also feels town. Gut.
BM is just being BM but slightly scummy.
Korts also I dont find him particularly scummy but there is something I dont like about him. Prob related to his stance in the rolf-CKD battle. Will reread him soon to have a better feeling about him.
Yos and Vollkan are hard to read but I expected to get a town read from them but havent. So neutral and will look closely at his post some time from now.
CKD felt scummy since page 5, pushing a weak case, and then went V/LA. When he came back he voted himsef. Yeah, he is the one I want to lynch today.
Kison at the same time also feels off sometimes, for not seeing the blatant CKD's scumminess. Add Sensefan to that group.
RR doesnt post much and when he does he generally asks questions. Not too fan of this.

[populartajo]

Triple post for the

win

vote.

Vote:CKD.

[roflcopter]

re guardian death, i don't see why it couldn't have been a vig kill, there were several people who were publically suspicious of guardian before his death.

[vollkan]

You talked about how my vote was based on gut (which, by the way, I never said), but then, rather then ask me why I was suspicious of CKD, you tried to get me to make a case on someone else.

Firstly, let me quote your vote post:

Ok. I'm not actually going to have any real logic behind most of this, so don't expect it, but based on my readthrough:

People I won't vote for right now:

3. DrippingGoofball
13. Battle Mage
10. Elmo

The first two seem to be really trying hard to do scumhunting, and I like that. Elmo hasn't done that much yet, but I totally expect him to nail the scum godfather given another 48 hours or so, so I'll give him some breathing room.

Based on some weird feelings I got from them earlier, I'm currently trying to decide between a CKD vote and a Guardian vote.

(shrug)

vote:curiouskarmadog

Please accept my apologies. Your vote was based on "some weird feelings" rather than gut. That changes

everything

Secondly, as has already been pointed out by Des and I it was implicit in the attacks on your vote that people wanted to know your reasoning. Thus, it's just sneaky of you to accuse Des of trying to get you to make a case on somebody else in lieu of CKD - when I know you are smart enough to ascertain that he would have wanted your thoughts on CKD

and

the others.

And then we get to your reasons for suspecting CKD:

Anyway, CKD's behavior this game has seemed really unusual; both in general, and compared to when I have played with him before. (I don't have much of a meta on him, having not played with him all that many times I think, but his behavior in this game really seems different).

This is entirely vague and doesn't even suggest he is scummy - unless changes in people's playstyle are inherently scummy.

He then turned and vote rofl, claiming his reason was "gut", even though at that point I thought rofl looked pretty town.

So the fact that his "gut" goes against yours makes him scummy?

After that, he posted a lot, but didn't scumhunt at all; pretty much just argued semantics with rofl, ironically enough about you, with rofl saying you were "being" pro-town and him saying you might just be "acting" pro-town. But he never actually attacked you, or actually gave any real reasons for why he was voting rofl...meh.

When you voted CKD, you had just 2 previous posts. The first was an "I need to read up". The second was theory debating. I'm not saying this reason is invalid or anything, but it is a bit rich that one player who actually posts nothing can criticise another player for posting effectively nothing.

I am having some trouble explaining this, which is probably why I first just said I was voting him for "weirdness" and was waiting for him to ask me for more details. In the early part of the game, he just wasn't playing, well, like town; he didn't really seem to be trying to find scum, he seemed like he was trying to do...I donno...something else, but not that.

You're better than this.

Unvote, Vote: Yosarian2

[Korts]

Also, I find it odd that Korts, Volkan, and Destuctor are all all attacking for my vote on CKD and yet not one has shown the slightest bit of curiosity for why I am voting him.

Where have I even mentioned you?

I would like people speculate as to why Guardian was killed. No, really.

Scumkill and vigkill are both likely possibilities. Scumkill because Guardian was basically uncovering a plan that could ensure a quicklynch, and vigkill because the same, which was a clear attempt to stop any more votes on CKD, implied a heavy connection between Guardian and CKD. Why do you think this question will help in any way?