Crackers! Mafia -- Game Over. See page 50

[Battle Mage]

What makes you read DGB as pro town?

The fact that she actively pursues her suspicions.

2 words. NULL. TELL.

BM

It's all about motives.

please continue.

BM

[roflcopter]

What makes you read DGB as pro town?

The fact that she actively pursues her suspicions.

2 words. NULL. TELL.

BM

god, i keep pointing out how much scum love to try and undermine other peoples' town reads, and they just keep doing it anyway. it makes them so obvious.

vote stands. I'm sorry if you resent the fact that i'll pick apart BS when i see it. Actually, i'm not. And i dont suppose you were one of the people who questionned my town read on CKD?

BM

i disagree with your town read on ckd, but i didn't try to call into question your reasons for believing ckd to be town, as you're doing with korts' reasons for believing dgb is town.

[Battle Mage]

oh, also add

sensfan?

to the bottom of that list. i almost forgot he was even in the game he's added so little

I thought you didnt want to go on a lurkerhunt?

BM

i don't, and i'm not, but what he

has

added has been scummy. but well done defending him by trying to undermine the validity of my calling him scummy. thats pretty damn scummy in itself on your part.

bmscum exponentially increases the chances of sensfanscum, and vice versa

Lol, CALM DOWN DEAR!
You said you didnt want to string up a lurker because you already had a good suspect. Then you suggest a lurker, and offer no reasoning other than 'hes a lurker'. What else do you expect me to think?

Unvote, Vote: Roflcopter

You seem panicked.

BM

you seem to be the one who is panicking, chainsaw defending sens against a suspicion that didn't even come with a vote attached.

Apparently the suspicion came without a suspicion attached. lol

Votes are over-rated.

Unvote, Vote: Roflcopter

[roflcopter]

BM, stop living up to your title.

literally minutes ago you gave BM an X on my scum list, as in "you are incorrect about BM being scum."

[Battle Mage]

What makes you read DGB as pro town?

The fact that she actively pursues her suspicions.

2 words. NULL. TELL.

BM

god, i keep pointing out how much scum love to try and undermine other peoples' town reads, and they just keep doing it anyway. it makes them so obvious.

vote stands. I'm sorry if you resent the fact that i'll pick apart BS when i see it. Actually, i'm not. And i dont suppose you were one of the people who questionned my town read on CKD?

BM

i disagree with your town read on ckd, but i didn't try to call into question your reasons for believing ckd to be town, as you're doing with korts' reasons for believing dgb is town.

because his reasons are wrong. Imo, he is wrong. If Player A says Player B is town with no valid reasoning, I'll attack Player A for it. Town should try and be honest, and not allow the game to be swamped by bs.

Do you feel it is protown to ban honest criticism?

BM

[Battle Mage]

BM, stop living up to your title.

literally minutes ago you gave BM an X on my scum list, as in "you are incorrect about BM being scum."

If i'm a Jester, i'm not scum. But yes, i am a little curious as to how Elmo knows that me and Guardian are town.

BM

[roflcopter]

i don't think your criticism was either honest or correct

[Battle Mage]

i don't think your criticism was either honest or correct

then you should be voting for me. And rather than bitching about the fact i made a criticism, you should bitch about the fact it was invalid. THEN you might be taken seriously by people. (not me though. )

BM

[roflcopter]

stop trying to get my vote off your scumpartner ckd

[Korts]

Let me clarify, then, BM. DGB's actions (other than the slight but very obvious buddying up to rofl and des) have been pro-town because she actively pursued her suspicions, which is something that I'd expect at this game state from a pro-town player trying to get a rise out of scum.

[Korts]

BM, stop living up to your title.

literally minutes ago you gave BM an X on my scum list, as in "you are incorrect about BM being scum."

If i'm a Jester, i'm not scum. But yes, i am a little curious as to how Elmo knows that me and Guardian are town.

BM

I'M a little curious to know how Elmo made

any

of his calls.

[Battle Mage]

Let me clarify, then, BM. DGB's actions (other than the slight but very obvious buddying up to rofl and des) have been pro-town because she actively pursued her suspicions, which is something that I'd expect at this game state from a pro-town player trying to get a rise out of scum.

the alternative being? You think as scum, DGB would claim a list of scumbags and not pursue them?

BM

[Battle Mage]

stop trying to get my vote off your scumpartner ckd

Confirm Vote: Roflcopter

BM

[Elmo]

1) Reread.
2) BM seems meta-townish. But 267 is daft. Hence, Jester.

[Elmo]

I'M a little curious to know how Elmo made

any

of his calls.

Eight-ball.

[Korts]

Let me clarify, then, BM. DGB's actions (other than the slight but very obvious buddying up to rofl and des) have been pro-town because she actively pursued her suspicions, which is something that I'd expect at this game state from a pro-town player trying to get a rise out of scum.

the alternative being? You think as scum, DGB would claim a list of scumbags and not pursue them?

BM

You want me to try and put a basically gut feel into any more words and my head will burst.

[DrippingGoofball]

i disagree with your town read on ckd [...].

Anyone getting a town read on CKD ought to have their heads examined, or be lynched.

[vollkan]

. This is why self voting is BAD. It can at best only generate debate about self-voting. It gets people sidetracked from discussing who is scummy into talking about whether something that will never come up again in the game is suspicious. It wastes time and space and thought and energy.

That's not how it works in practice, actually. See, the line between pure theory and relevant discussion is, I think, blurred in many areas. The response to a self-vote is an attack on the self-vote but, almost inevitably, it is framed as an attack upon myself. The debate about self-voting which, I accept would be pure theory, becomes a debate which, indirectly at least and not uncommonly directly, concerns the scumminess of my own actions. In that sense, the debate, whilst entirely contrived by me, is a genuine debate which can be as useful as standard random stage fare.

Also, if the conclusion is that self voting is scummy, it guarantees that it brings the focus on to you! And that is never good if you are town -- you want the focus on the scum, not on you having to defend yourself because of your self-vote that sidetracked the town. Please stop this. It is making me cry.

Again, my position differs from yours. Fact is that, because self-voting is genuinely controversial (smart, reasonable players disagree on it), it is almost impossible for a self-vote to be taken as a serious basis for suspicion. If people find my justification unconvincing, there is the prospect of me coming under some degree of suspicion for it. However, I cannot envisage any scenario where self-voting could actually be held as a lynch justification.

The effect of that is that it is possible for self-voting to make people more suspicious of me without prompting any imminent increase in my odds of being the lynchee. What it may do is make people attack me more than they otherwise would. Since I have always scum-hunted through argument, this is something that, in fact, I welcome. Think of it almost as a sort of baiting for scum. I, for one, don't necessarily like being in a position of being taken as "confirmed town", because it effectively deprives me of one very important source of information: the logic behind attacks against me. I am sure I have said this somewhere else on site, but my basic view is that there is an optimum and non-zero level of suspicion - not enough that could feasibly carry a lynch, but enough that debate against you will still be open. Basically, I have no problem taking a bit of heat if it lets me set scum on fire.

I disagree. Mafia has an implicit social contract where we all put our thoughts about other people to be analyzed. When you don't self vote, you don't do that. It is like lurking. It robs the town of discussion and moves the discussion in a bad direction. At worst it can bring suspicion to yourself -- because it IS unhelpful to the town.

The analysis comes after people respond to a self-vote. It doesn't rob anybody of discussion; it just forestalls it by one post.

I've done it for you and for vollkan. For the players that I have declared to be town, I must decline to comment as it should remain a secret formula. Otherwise there is a strong risk of it being exploited by you and your buddies.

And the rest of us have no way of knowing whether or not your "secret formula" is simply DGB-scum pulling everybody else's strings. It's a double standard to expect yourself to be able to pass judgment on everybody else's actions whilst you yourself can freely post as you please with no accountability.

a few extremely pro town des quotes

Korts, do you think asking someone who they this is town is a scumtell?

Is anything interesting you besides rofl's question?

How about ckd unvoting you?

directed at korts, shows a keen eye for korts getting hung up on my questions and a depth of curiosity consistent with a solid pro town scumhunter. his questions are relevant and get straight to the heart of the matter, and offer a great opportunity to examine both korts and ckd's possible alignments as well as the relation between their alignments.

I don't have a problem with your play (the whole "so-and-so is protown) as such, but I would like to pick at your reasoning a bit more. How are the quotes you give above any more consistent with town-Des than scum-Des? I think you exaggerate the incisiveness of those questions and, frankly, I cannot see how you could possibly treat them as anything other than a null-tell.

(I'm coming from a perspective which is very skeptical of "town tells" in general. Basically, scum has every motivation to appear protown, such that it shouldn't be at all surprising that scum do a good job at "scumhunting". Town, in contrast, has no motivation to appear scummy (subject to my "optimum, non-zero point above"), which makes scumtells (however much we may debate what is a scumtell and what is not) on more solid a footing.)

in closing, des shows the curiosity and determination of true scumhunting, something that is very close to impossible to fake so convincingly, and he's casting his net wide enough that he isn't ignoring other things that go on. scum don't scumhunt - scum try to look like they're scumhunting. des is actually scumhunting, and a read of him is peppered with other very pro town odds and ends, therefore des is not scum.

How on earth can you state with such conclusiveness that des is genuinely scum-hunting. His posts were good and definitely not scummy. But, at the same time, I see no basis for saying that they are protown at all, yet alone to a degree that would justify your drooling over them.

He's so town that it's blindingly obvious, yet it's also unexplainable because it's a gut read?

Unvote
Vote: roflcoptor

I see what my beef with this is. a) rofl's "blindingly obvious" comment was a very clear hyperbole, and b) "blindingly obvious" doesn't even come close to contradicting the statement that it was a gut read on des. This is pure, unadulterated BS.

a) Probably true.
b) Not true. If something is obvious"it means that it is readily apparent. If something is based on gut then, by definition, the player cannot point to a basis for their assertion. Thus, it isn't obvious.

After trying to discredit CKD case, and a reply from rofl, he quickly retreats and basically allows rofl to follow the lead on CKD. I think he's trying too hard to stay uncommitted to any particular side.

unvote, vote: Guardian

That's not correct. Guardian begins to defend CKD, and then stops (not "retreats") because he has an objection to defending (which I suspect I disagree with, but now is not the place for that argument). He doesn't say anything which could be construed as expressing a neutral opinion - he just refuses to involve himself in CKD's defence. The implicit point here is that he disagrees with the case (is committed to disagreement, you might say) but doesn't want to involve himself in the debate.

@Elmo: Deliberate lurking is totally unacceptable. If, after I finish reading up to date, you haven't posted something substantial, presume that I demand that you do so or, otherwise, finish this sentence: "Lurking is protown because <your reasoning>"

Disagree. When you're willing to clear someone and make statements like this, you should be damn well capable of figuring out why you have such a strong town read on that individual. My stance on 'gut' is closer to Vollkan's hardcore disapproval of them; it's an easy cop out for not backing your reads on an individual. Something causes your 'gut' to tell you one thing or another; you simply have to find out what it is. (and it looks like he finally did)

Wow! Somebody who largely agrees with me on gut.

No, actually, I liked your post a lot. But more importantly, I took the time to look at some of your completed games and found that you have done this before as Town(the best example I found was Open 81). That basically gets rid of anything I had going on you

Ugh...it's still poor play, but this would mean it isn't scummy for him.

Vollkan, I saw a lot of theory discussion in your last post but not an actual explanation of why CKD's gut call is scummy despite him always using gut reads. I see you accusing him of double standards, anything else behind your vote on him?

Due diligence please.

I said this on the gut:

CKD, since when have I been the type to vote seriously based on the use of "gut" alone? Since when have I been the type to preface my votes with "obv scum"? You know better than most how much I tend to vacillate and obsess about different possibilities.

Let me state without qualification that, whilst I generally take issue with unreasoned votes, I know CKD's meta and know that, in his case, gut is (albeit to my disdain) normal. Not that this is a warrant for CKD to give no reasons or anything, but I've learned to give up trying to make my case against gut for him

I'll even reduce it to a single sentence: "The gut attack was a joke, I know it isn't scummy for you - but I still hate it."

i agree with most of what dgb has been saying

aside from the vollkan bit, which i hope she's just joking about

scum list:
ckd
guardian
elmo
bm?
kison?
korts?

in that order

Please explain why each is scummy, and why that order. Otherwise, cease and desist from this sort of posting because it is completely useless.

oh, also add

sensfan?

to the bottom of that list. i almost forgot he was even in the game he's added so little

I thought you didnt want to go on a lurkerhunt?

BM

i don't, and i'm not, but what he

has

added has been scummy. but well done defending him by trying to undermine the validity of my calling him scummy. thats pretty damn scummy in itself on your part.

bmscum exponentially increases the chances of sensfanscum, and vice versa

1) How has what Sensfan has said thus far been scummy?
2) How is BM criticising an attack scummy?

[roflcopter]

Please explain why each is scummy, and why that order. Otherwise, cease and desist from this sort of posting because it is completely useless.

well, i believe i commented on the scummy things they were doing in situ, and the order is just my own personal weighting, but i disagree with you whole heartedly that this sort of posting is completely useless. the more transparent we all are with our current opinions on other players, the easier it becomes to track possible connections and spot inconsistencies. but i don't want to drag you into yet another theory debate, this game already has far too many of those going on.

[roflcopter]

BM seems meta-townish.

define meta-townish. because it sounds mostly like an excuse for you to ignore whatever scummy things bm does.

[curiouskarmadog]

getting slammed right now at work..hoping to get to this thread in the next 1-2 days...only have time for a line or two...

[roflcopter]

How has what Sensfan has said thus far been scummy?

see the bottom of page six/top of page seven

How is BM criticising an attack scummy?

because he wasn't just criticising it, he was mischaracterizing it as a lurkerhunt, which makes it sound like it doesn't have any basis in sens' actions. but if you'll do as i suggested with the quote right above this you'll see that it does in fact have a basis in sens' actions, and i was on his case when they were happening.

[vollkan]

Please explain why each is scummy, and why that order. Otherwise, cease and desist from this sort of posting because it is completely useless.

well, i believe i commented on the scummy things they were doing in situ, and the order is just my own personal weighting, but i disagree with you whole heartedly that this sort of posting is completely useless. the more transparent we all are with our current opinions on other players, the easier it becomes to track possible connections and spot inconsistencies. but i don't want to drag you into yet another theory debate, this game already has far too many of those going on.

1) You said that your top scum are:
ckd
guardian
elmo
bm?
kison?
korts?

It needn't be enormously detailed, but I would like a statement on each of these players as to why you find them scummy. If you are basing your suspicions on anything more than the most wild rumblings of your gut, this shouldn't be an unreasonably onerous task.

2) Saying that the order is your own "personal weighting" doesn't answer my question at all. I am not an idiot and I can see quite clearly that it is your "personal weighting". I want to know why you have personally weighted them in the way that you have.

3) I am delighted to see you also appreciate the importance of transparency. The benefits of transparency are only realised in full, however, if full reasoning is mandated from every and all players. Simply saying "I think X is scum" is absolutely useless. I don't very much care care at all about

who

you suspect, but I care very deeply about

why

you suspect them.

How has what Sensfan has said thus far been scummy?

see the bottom of page six/top of page seven

I asked you a "how" question, not a "where" question. I want to know your reasons.

That said, I had a look at the posts you identify and I cannot see anything by Sens which could possibly be construed as scummy. He disagrees with you on a minor theory point. So what?

How is BM criticising an attack scummy?

because he wasn't just criticising it, he was mischaracterizing it as a lurkerhunt, which makes it sound like it doesn't have any basis in sens' actions. but if you'll do as i suggested with the quote right above this you'll see that it does in fact have a basis in sens' actions, and i was on his case when they were happening.
[/quote]

Calling it "mischaracterising" is a bit rich.

You said:

oh, also add

sensfan?

to the bottom of that list. i almost forgot he was even in the game he's added so little

Nothing you say there at all exlpains why you suspect Sens, other than your mention of inactivity (which is not a legitimiate basis for suspicion)

And, as I have said, I did as you suggested and see nothing at all which is scummy.

[vollkan]

Quote tags messed up in the above. the penultimate quote which appears to be by rofl was by me, and the following text (up to the [/quote] tag) is by rofl.

[Battle Mage]

getting slammed right now at work..hoping to get to this thread in the next 1-2 days...only have time for a line or two...

Lol, its amazing you have time to get any work done, with all the shenanigans you guys seem to get upto.

BM