Crackers! Mafia -- Game Over. See page 50

[Guardian]

Reading over the thread again, there are two quick things I'd like to say.

If, after considering whether you truly think the case on CKD is good, you still think it is, keep going for it. I do not want us to waste time, but I just remembered the plethora of reasons I refuse to defend people -- I am not going to defend him by saying why I think the points against him are weak, that is up to him.

I think destructor is townish, but I have been wrong and been burned too many times to say "obviously town." I already decided I am going to keep my eyes on him today, and not let my initial read blind me. I suggest everyone does the same with all players.

[Raging Rabbit]

Other than that, Korts is giving me a very bad vibe for some reason

Don't I always?

Nope, and certainly not in the first few pages. Still trying to figure out what you're doing different.

[Adel]

See this post for a little more explanation about the mechanics of this game.

˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚

votecount as of post 201

_{with 14 alive, 8 will lynch before deadline}

˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚

¬curiouskarmadog:

4

:roflcopter, DrippingGoofball, destructor, vollkan
Battle Mage:

3

:Raging Rabbit, Korts, SensFan
roflcopter:

2

:curiouskarmadog, Kison
Korts:

2

:ZazieR, Battle Mage
Raging Rabbit:

1

:Elmo,
Kison:

1

: Guardian

No Lynch:

none

not voting:

1

:Yosarian2

˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚

Day 1's deadline is December 6th at 16:40(UTC)

Countdown timer to deadline

[roflcopter]

mod, please prod yosarian2

he hasn't posted at all

[Elmo]

So what percentage of the last nine pages are actually worth reading?

[roflcopter]

So what percentage of the last nine pages are actually worth reading?

100% minus BM

[SensFan]

So what percentage of the last nine pages are actually worth reading?

100% minus BM

So, like, 40%. >_>

[DrippingGoofball]

Guardian is more scum now than he was last time I declared him to be scum.

Pretty much all of his post #195 is a scum agenda - except for his comment about BM: "I am especially annoyed with BM and rofl for this, off the top of my head. BM you need to re-read the thread and come up with something logical, and stop the knee-jerk voting reactions that seem to come three times a page. " That's a townie thing to say, But then again, I'd expect Guardian to treat BM differently as they are buddies.

[Guardian]

Guardian is more scum now than he was last time I declared him to be scum.

Pretty much all of his post #195 is a scum agenda

Please explain why you think this is so, as per each paragraph in the post.

Also, please:

DGB, you seem to have said that at least half the players are either obviously town or obviously scum. Please list all the players with your current thoughts on them, and a short explanation of why you think this way.

[roflcopter]

i'd like kison and ckd to come back and continue making themselves obvious

[Kison]

[Kison]

Why do you FoS Battle Mage for this comment, but not FoS me for this one

Why did you want to know this?

Because they were similar comments with inconsistent responses. I hadn't remembered that I said I was joking, though.

Kison is scum for casting aspersions on roflcopter's unblemished record as townie town town in this game.

His case is absolute rubbish but he's perhaps hoping we interpret his actions as bus'ing after we lynch or vig him.

Not by the hair on my chinny chin chin.

ckd, kison: how does bm's declaration that ckd is protown differ from my own about des,

You implied that you are clearing destructor. I can't fathom how someone can be that certain of someone's alignment without the ability to point to what makes them feel that way.

and why has it gone ignored by you two up to this point?

It hasn't:

The only thing from him which I find even remotely alarming so far is his declaration that he is pretty sure CKD is Town so early in the game.

But now that BM is back he can go ahead and point out what CKD has done to make him say that.

Also, the reason I switched my vote to you is because you've shown resistance to multiple requests that you point out what Destructor has done to make you feel so certain he's town. That leads me to believe you simply said it without meaning it. Instead, ever since I pointed out that one thing I disliked, you've taken the stance that I'm scumnage rather than address my concern.

[DrippingGoofball]

Zazier -- answering questions posed at others is not a reliable scum tell. It is unhelpful, but not scummy, because lots of people naturally do this. I used to think it was a scum tell because most unhelpful things are scummy and vice versa, but this one seems to not be.. Defending others surreptitiously by answering tough questions posed to them is scummy however, if you think any of the instances you brought up fall into that let me know.

here Guardian is opening the door for his buddies to answer questions posed at others with cheeky impunity.

I am very unconvinced by the case on CKD, and mention this because I think it is mostly wasting our time . Is the case anything more than him having a strong gut read early in the game, and saying so? If it is please enlighten me. If not, please move on.

Only scum would be unmoved by CKD's screaming scumminess. My own scumdar, which is finely calibrated, first pinged, then sounded full alarm... another CKD post, and it started shooting sparks, caught fire and blew up in a mushroom cloud.

BM, why do you think DGB will be unreadable? Why are you continuing to promote this meta of vote hopping if it is a scummy meta? Scummy things are generally scummy because they are unhelpful to town -- if you acknowledge that constantly moving your votes is scummy, e.g. unhelpful, why continue to do so?

This is a weak prodding of your buddy to stop vote-hopping, which he is doing on purpose, alarmed by my presence in the player roster and fully aware of my keen eye for Day 1 bus'ing.

Self voting is scummy -- it robs town of information. I am disappointed in vollkan especially for this -- I've always looked at his play as logical and very helpful to town. I find his choice to self vote and rob the town of information suspicious and out of character, especially considering I think that others self-voting probably impacted his decision to do so.

This is just silly. Self-voting is indicative of nothing at all, and vollkan did it to bus himself, as he is the SK. But more seriously, Day 1 self-voting is not even worthy of comment, unless you're looking for an easy point to make to fake scum hunting.

DGB, you seem to have said that at least half the players are either obviously town or obviously scum. Please list all the players with your current thoughts on them, and a short explanation of why you think this way.

I've done it for you and for vollkan. For the players that I have declared to be town, I must decline to comment as it should remain a secret formula. Otherwise there is a strong risk of it being exploited by you and your buddies.

This is supposed to be such a stellar cast -- we seem to have largely spam'd/noise'd our way to page 8 in two days. Short page lengths are better for towns -- in reality, people are not going to re-read 40 page day ones as well as they read 15 page day ones.

I disagree, these 15 pages are shockfull of information and I've already pegged half the players correctly. Especially vollkan.

Please cut out the garbage -- it is unhelpful and suspcious. Posting a lot of nothing can make you look like you are scum hunting, being active, thinking about the game, etc. when you aren't.

HEY! That's what you just did.

I am especially annoyed with BM and rofl for this, off the top of my head. BM you need to re-read the thread and come up with something logical, and stop the knee-jerk voting reactions that seem to come three times a page.

BM I understand, though I promise you will be disappointed if you expect logic from him, as you would if you expected sanity from me. But rolfcopter? Come on. Please do not try to silence the townies.

rofl, when asked a question that you see that you are being asked, either refuse to answer it and move on (worse option), or answer it immediately (better option). Don't draw it out over a dozen posts where you get into a debate with others where you explain why you are refusing when you could just answer (worst option, one that you chose).

Stop trying to trip rolfcopter. It's scummy.

[Adel]

mod, please prod yosarian2

he hasn't posted at all

72 hours have not passed yet. See rule 11.

[destructor]

BM, I know you said it jokingly. I'm repeating myself here. You got the FOS for implicating Sens. Kison played along with DBG based on interaction that already existed. You specifically bought SensFan into it for no reason I can understand. What was the point of that?


For the record, my vote on ckd has more to do with Korts than it does rofl. One of Korts and ckd is scum, if not both. I think that ckd was threatened by rofl's vote and his following case against him seemed almost knee-jerk. I asked him to explain his gut read because his case seemed to come out of nowhere, like he was just running with it, hoping it'd become believable at some point. This impression was reinforced when he later said he didn't have a case and wasn't trying to "parade it as anything else", which I don't think is true - he was definitely accusing rofl of being scum.

I already said I had issues with ckd unvoting Korts (Post 108). I wasn't convinced that ckd had a good enough reason to say his vote on Korts was "lacking". What Guardian says here applies to Korts, imo.

Posting a lot of nothing can make you look like you are scum hunting, being active, thinking about the game, etc. when you aren't.

The Korts-ckd connection became more evident when Korts talked about ckd's motives with so much confidence (Post 161). He describes ckd's case on rofl as OMGUS, ignoring the fact that ckd voted rofl before this could have been a factor. Why isn't Korts questioning the legitimacy of ckd's reasoning prior to his exchange with rofl? I think it's because he's scum trying to slow his buddy's wagon down, or possibly scum who knows ckd is town.

So, ckd needs to tell us what he thought of Korts' play compared to rofl's before he switched his vote.

I disagree; I'm not defending CKD, but rather one of his arguments. Why? Because I think the argument in question is valid.

Are you concerned about ckd at all? You said you didn't agree with much else he said. What do you think of Korts?

About the rofl drama, I think he can nip it at the bud (which might be blooming a little) by collecting a few quotes of mine that gave him a town read of me. That shouldn't be hard.
BM claims to have a reason to believe ckd is town, so he should explain that as well.

Elmo, Yos and vollkan need to post more.
I have a mildly town read of RR.
I think all 4 of you should place a non-random in your next post.

Zaz, which parts of your first post were serious?

[vollkan]

the vote is on page 5...it is gut..there is nothing more to go on this early in the game...

of course I am fucking reaching..it is early in the game..i am trying to scum hunt. lynch me if you need to for my gut vote on page 5...essentially you are voting me for the exact same reason, vollkan..you think i am reaching and your gut says that is scummy....I think he is trying to earn friends..it was a gut reaction..which is why I said in my vote "lets see where this goes" and didnt present a case with it. Vollkan you have seen me vote on my gut NUMEROUS times as town in the passed...funny you seem to be forgetting that now..why is that? Out of everyone in the game YOU should know I vote gut frequently..we have even discussed it before...noted.

You don't know a joke vote when you see one.

CKD, since when have I been the type to vote seriously based on the use of "gut" alone? Since when have I been the type to preface my votes with "obv scum"? You know better than most how much I tend to vacillate and obsess about different possibilities.

Let me state without qualification that, whilst I generally take issue with unreasoned votes, I know CKD's meta and know that, in his case, gut is (albeit to my disdain) normal. Not that this is a warrant for CKD to give no reasons or anything, but I've learned to give up trying to make my case against gut for him

also vollkan, those questions seemed out of place..it didnt set right with me...this OF COURSE is reaching...I stated several times it wasnt a case...I am not trying to parade it as anything else..it seemed force because they didnt make any sense..."vollkan, who do you think is town" (or something of the like) on page 3-4 IS forced. it looks like someone trying to LOOK like they are doing something without really doing anything.

This point is serious though, lest my gut humour confuse you. CKD, I find it something of a double standard that when you go after something in a manner which, by your own admission is "reaching", then it is acceptable as early game scumhunting. But, when somebody else asks stupid questions, it is "forced" and an attempt to "appear" to be scumhunting. What say you?

Whether this is what's happening here or not, if you swap bussing with distancing, what DGB says has merit. A Mafiate can die and still win. SKs need to stay alive, so implying that you're willing to be lynched is alluding to not having survival in your win condition.

Good point.

Vollkan, do you have a problem with rofl's gut read of me?

My impression was that he was just being jokey early game. My loathing of gut will only ever take the form of actual suspicion where it is used to justify something serious. In the early game phase, of course, tolerance is needed because I know many people do like throwing around random accusations and so on in order to tobuild a sufficient foundation for later (serious)discussion.

on a related note, vollkan's answer was legitimate, but not what i had been looking for. too late now though.

Now you know to phrase your questions more carefully

This whole discussion is pretty lame, though. I don't even know if 'gut' means the same thing to everyone. I think of gut as the impression I get when I pick up on recurring nuances over a number of posts that I can't always point at immediately. Why shouldn't this get me leaning town, as opposed to scum, on someone?

The page number thing is also a fallacy. The post count and content of the player(s) in question are more meaningful.

Well, for me, I am strictly targetting where, at the point in time where people are starting to make proper cases, people are voting because of things like:

Vote: X

Because your last vote feels scummy to me

or

I think X is suspicious because after my reread, my gut tells me that that X seems scummy

Basically, if I could reduce my position to a single statement, the litmus test for unacceptable gut would be:

Are the reasons given for a vote/declaration of suspicion/etc. such that they are incapable of being rebutted?

If somebody says something feels scummy, for example, nothing is capable of refuting that statement. Thus, it is gut.

Finally. I'm included this time (I hope )

Oh gee. Do I be really rude, or do I run the risk of DGB tearing my eyes out again for buttering up?

vollkan...

but he always looks town to me.

That's funny. In my experience, he is always the GF.

BM

Only when you are modding, BM.

(For the uninformed: I think I have played in about four games modded by BM (profuse apologies if I am wrong here!) and was GF in every one of them)

this page has suddenly experienced an explosion of noise from battle mage with very little signal

If there was signal coming from BM, he would have my vote by now.

This game looks set to be great. The list of players is absolutely brilliant.

Doesn't yield the same sort of information, and from my experience the discussion it creates revolves strictly around theory and meta and doesn't have much to do with the game. I'm not letting this deteriorate into a Twito discussion, you can keep crying your eyes out as far as I'm concerned. Also, you're buddying up to midgets.

Vote: Vollkan

Four questions:
1) What "sort of information" does a non-self random vote yield?
2) Can you see any inherent game value in having a theory debate early on?
3) Based on your answers to 1) and 2), do you think self-voting in the random stage can be a reasonable course of conduct?
4) Was your post that I quote above at all influenced by meta actions of myself?

1. I'm not exactly a fan of random votes, but they do form a sort of connection that can be analayzed later.
2. It's something to talk about and could lead to more game-related talk, other than that not really.
3. A better course of action which I sometimes use would be to just not vote and wait for something at least somewhat substantial; but I can't say selfvoting is that unreasonable, and clearly it's not a scumtell or any kind of a tell at all once it becomes a person's meta.
4. Nope. You always selfvote, I take it?

Good answers.

And I don't

always

self-vote, but I have done it a few times. The reason I asked you that question four was because when you said this:

Doesn't yield the same sort of information, and from my experience the discussion it creates revolves strictly around theory and meta and doesn't have much to do with the game. I'm not letting this deteriorate into a Twito discussion, you can keep crying your eyes out as far as I'm concerned. Also, you're buddying up to midgets.

I thought you may have been alluding to the fact that my self-votes tend to generate theory debates, and I thought you may have been attacking the utility of such debates as an early alignment-determining device.

Self voting is scummy -- it robs town of information. I am disappointed in vollkan especially for this -- I've always looked at his play as logical and very helpful to town. I find his choice to self vote and rob the town of information suspicious and out of character, especially considering I think that others self-voting probably impacted his decision to do so.

I'm disappointed that you would think I had fallen into the trap of stupid play

I actually did some thinking a while back (and I acknowledge my debt to Adel and JDodge for opening my eyes on this: see Open 59) and decided self-voting can, logically, be protown in the early game. My reasoning was basically like this:

• Non-self random votes have two main benefits: discussion springboards and as later-game tools for scum linkages
  
• The former need not necessarily arise only from a non-self vote
  
• The latter has (speaking from my experiences) never been useful
  
• Self-voting is a controversial action. That means that any self-vote will be likely to generate some degree, potentially a significant one, of debate.
  
• Such debate will likely revolve around the scumminess or otherwise of self-voting. Thus, despite the debate being "manufactured", in a sense, there are good prospects of people making actual accusations against me - which, I believe and have seen in practice, that my argument is reasonable enough to overcome.
  
• Since early game self-voting carries little risk and can generate at least as much useful information as non-self random voting, I believe it is a justified course of action for town.
  
• I also believe it can be acceptable at other points of time as a "stir the pot" sort of device, provided the risks are sufficiently minimal that a risk v reward analysis would hold it reasonable.

[destructor]

I think the polarised ckd-rofl thing is a distraction. A case on either rofl or ckd that revolves around each other is based on isolated scummy play. This is going to be less effective and informative than making cases based on interaction with at least one other suspicious player. I say this player is Korts.

I also note that a number of players have backed ckd up but only DGB and I have swayed on the side of rofl. So, ckd, Kison and anyone else who thinks rofl is scum - who's distancing from him?

[curiouskarmadog]

I am about a page or two behind..will catch up tomorrow..

[Guardian]

Self voting is scummy -- it robs town of information. I am disappointed in vollkan especially for this -- I've always looked at his play as logical and very helpful to town. I find his choice to self vote and rob the town of information suspicious and out of character, especially considering I think that others self-voting probably impacted his decision to do so.

I'm disappointed that you would think I had fallen into the trap of stupid play :sob:

I actually did some thinking a while back (and I acknowledge my debt to Adel and JDodge for opening my eyes on this: see Open 59) and decided self-voting can, logically, be protown in the early game.

Dammit. I hate it when good players get convinced to play badly :(. Adel & JDodge are generally very good, but self voting is bad for a couple of reasons :(.

Non-self random votes have two main benefits: discussion springboards and as later-game tools for scum linkages
The former need not necessarily arise only from a non-self vote
The latter has (speaking from my experiences) never been useful

So far so good.

Self-voting is a controversial action. That means that any self-vote will be likely to generate some degree, potentially a significant one, of debate.
Such debate will likely revolve around the scumminess or otherwise of self-voting. Thus, despite the debate being "manufactured", in a sense, there are good prospects of people making actual accusations against me - which, I believe and have seen in practice, that my argument is reasonable enough to overcome.

:(. This is why self voting is BAD. It can at best only generate debate about self-voting. It gets people sidetracked from discussing who is scummy into talking about whether something

that will never come up again in the game

is suspicious. It wastes time and space and thought and energy. Also, if the conclusion is that self voting is scummy, it guarantees that it brings the focus on to you! And that is never good if you are town -- you want the focus on the scum, not on you having to defend yourself because of your self-vote that sidetracked the town. Please stop this. It is making me cry.

Since early game self-voting carries little risk and can generate at least as much useful information as non-self random voting, I believe it is a justified course of action for town.

First of all, as I just explained, it carries huge risk. If you are the only self voter and towns determine that self voting is suspicious and anti-town (which it IS!) then it brings focus to you. Also, since when did low-risk mean good town play?

I also believe it can be acceptable at other points of time as a "stir the pot" sort of device, provided the risks are sufficiently minimal that a risk v reward analysis would hold it reasonable.

This conditional is true but the premises are always going to be false.

Never self vote ever again. This goes for all of you, and Adel.

[Guardian]

in my preceding post, 217 should be 215.

I think the polarised ckd-rofl thing is a distraction. A case on either rofl or ckd that revolves around each other is based on isolated scummy play. This is going to be less effective and informative than making cases based on interaction with at least one other suspicious player. I say this player is Korts.

I also note that a number of players have backed ckd up but only DGB and I have swayed on the side of rofl. So, ckd, Kison and anyone else who thinks rofl is scum - who's distancing from him?

I want to point out that, at least for me, the issue isn't polarizing. I think rofl (appeared to) was making a good effort, but ultimately I find it unconvincing.

I also want to point out that discussion on who and what is scummy is usually never a bad thing. I find the case on ckd unconvincing, and I find it a waste of space, but nevertheless it could lead to good things. I was wrong to say to stop it earlier.

[Guardian]

Zazier -- answering questions posed at others is not a reliable scum tell. It is unhelpful, but not scummy, because lots of people naturally do this. I used to think it was a scum tell because most unhelpful things are scummy and vice versa, but this one seems to not be.. Defending others surreptitiously by answering tough questions posed to them is scummy however, if you think any of the instances you brought up fall into that let me know.

here Guardian is opening the door for his buddies to answer questions posed at others with cheeky impunity.

Or pointing out that people naturally want to comment on what other players say. We should all try to not do this, but in the end it is not a reliable scum tell, unless someone keeps doing it when asked not to, or a pattern forms. Why do you think your explanation is better?

I am very unconvinced by the case on CKD, and mention this because I think it is mostly wasting our time :(. Is the case anything more than him having a strong gut read early in the game, and saying so? If it is please enlighten me. If not, please move on.

Only scum would be unmoved by CKD's screaming scumminess. My own scumdar, which is finely calibrated, first pinged, then sounded full alarm... another CKD post, and it started shooting sparks, caught fire and blew up in a mushroom cloud.

So you are trying to imply a tenuous causal link between CKD's alignment and mine, because I find the case on him unconvincing?

BM, why do you think DGB will be unreadable? Why are you continuing to promote this meta of vote hopping if it is a scummy meta? Scummy things are generally scummy because they are unhelpful to town -- if you acknowledge that constantly moving your votes is scummy, e.g. unhelpful, why continue to do so?

This is a weak prodding of your buddy to stop vote-hopping, which he is doing on purpose, alarmed by my presence in the player roster and fully aware of my keen eye for Day 1 bus'ing.

This assumes that mafia cannot daytalk, which I guess is possible but would be pretty odd since this game has no nights. And sorry DGB, but I don't think BM/anyone is particularly alarmed by your keen eye for scum-catching as opposed to, say, Yos2's or vollkan's...

Self voting is scummy -- it robs town of information. I am disappointed in vollkan especially for this -- I've always looked at his play as logical and very helpful to town. I find his choice to self vote and rob the town of information suspicious and out of character, especially considering I think that others self-voting probably impacted his decision to do so.

This is just silly. Self-voting is indicative of nothing at all, and vollkan did it to bus himself, as he is the SK

So does it indicate nothing or does it indicate that he is SK?

But more seriously, Day 1 self-voting is not even worthy of comment, unless you're looking for an easy point to make to fake scum hunting.

I disagree. Mafia has an implicit social contract where we all put our thoughts about other people to be analyzed. When you don't self vote, you don't do that. It is like lurking. It robs the town of discussion and moves the discussion in a bad direction. At worst it can bring suspicion to yourself -- because it IS unhelpful to the town.

DGB, you seem to have said that at least half the players are either obviously town or obviously scum. Please list all the players with your current thoughts on them, and a short explanation of why you think this way.

I've done it for you and for vollkan. For the players that I have declared to be town, I must decline to comment as it should remain a secret formula. Otherwise there is a strong risk of it being exploited by you and your buddies.

Why refuse to state who you are suspicious of and why? Why refuse to list the players and make comments? I want a firm stand from you on the players because right now you are my first (second if you count me misreading Korts) real suspect. I will explain further after you procure such a list or again explicitly refuse to.

unvote: vote: DrippingGoofball

This is supposed to be such a stellar cast -- we seem to have largely spam'd/noise'd our way to page 8 in two days. Short page lengths are better for towns -- in reality, people are not going to re-read 40 page day ones as well as they read 15 page day ones.

I disagree, these 15 pages are shockfull of information and I've already pegged half the players correctly. Especially vollkan.

Again, you presenting the information you claim to have gathered in a concise manner will help me and others to analyze the truth of this statement.

Please cut out the garbage -- it is unhelpful and suspcious. Posting a lot of nothing can make you look like you are scum hunting, being active, thinking about the game, etc. when you aren't.

HEY! That's what you just did.

I highly dispute that this is so, especially as compared to BM's vote-an-hour and rofl's back and forth with numerous people about why he refused to answer a question.

I am especially annoyed with BM and rofl for this, off the top of my head. BM you need to re-read the thread and come up with something logical, and stop the knee-jerk voting reactions that seem to come three times a page.

BM I understand, though I promise you will be disappointed if you expect logic from him, as you would if you expected sanity from me.

I expect a good faith effort at pro-town play from everyone. I think that BM's

spam

posting was lacking in that, was unhelpful/suspicious, and that he can amend his play to be more on that track if he is town.

But rolfcopter? Come on. Please do not try to silence the townies.

Do you think roflcopter going back and forth for a dozen posts about why he didn't want to answer a particular question at a particular time was at all useful? Do you think that was the most pro-town he could be?

rofl, when asked a question that you see that you are being asked, either refuse to answer it and move on (worse option), or answer it immediately (better option). Don't draw it out over a dozen posts where you get into a debate with others where you explain why you are refusing when you could just answer (worst option, one that you chose).

Stop trying to trip rolfcopter. It's scummy.

How is this trying to 'trip' him? This is me telling him that something he did was unhelpful, and yes, suspicious.

[destructor]

How suspicious do you think it was in the context of this game and the rest of his play?

Does my case on Korts interest you? What about his connection to ckd?

[destructor]

EBWOP:
"How suspicious do you think [rofl's refusal to answer] was in the context of this game and the rest of his play?"

[roflcopter]

a few extremely pro town des quotes

Korts, do you think asking someone who they this is town is a scumtell?

Is anything interesting you besides rofl's question?

How about ckd unvoting you?

directed at korts, shows a keen eye for korts getting hung up on my questions and a depth of curiosity consistent with a solid pro town scumhunter. his questions are relevant and get straight to the heart of the matter, and offer a great opportunity to examine both korts and ckd's possible alignments as well as the relation between their alignments.

If ckd is scum, is his vote still random?
He didn't say why he voted for rofl either, so why say that was a better place for his vote?
I can understand asking rofl that question the first time. I don't see as much merit in persisting for an answer like you have, though. I'm not convinced that your play so far is pro-town, so I wonder about ckd leaving your wagon.

rather than be dissuaded by korts explanation, which was both insufficient and in parts answering on behalf of ckd (*scummy*), destructor delves further into it.

Also, it's self-bus'ing. I mean, he can only bus himself. He's doing it to get town cred in case he goes down in flames.

I'd strongly encourage any SK/s to adopt this excellent strategy.

Whether this is what's happening here or not, if you swap bussing with distancing, what DGB says has merit. A Mafiate can die and still win. SKs need to stay alive, so implying that you're willing to be lynched is alluding to not having survival in your win condition.


I think rofl's "clearing" of me is being blown out of proportion. I said I'm not sure of what rofl meant, but I have an idea of what rofl's train of thought was. I'm not saying more than that because it's not my place to speak for him.

and Des, you are voting me why?..becauase you think it is noise?

I think it's an unreasonably reachy argument. There is no reason arguments and cases have to be weak just because it's early in the game. What you're doing isn't even prodding and probing.

I stated several times it wasnt a case...I am not trying to parade it as anything else

I don't buy this. It's like you're saying you're only testing the waters. Here are some quotes:

first major scum move this game..

vote in the right place.

because I dont think you are "clearing" people right now. you are trying to buddy up with people right now.

he knows I caught him in a load a bullshit and he trying to avoid admitting it.

These all sound like you're definitely accusing rofl of being scum, more than just sniffing around.

it looks like someone trying to LOOK like they are doing something without really doing anything.

What do you make of Korts' contributions before page 5?

this whole post is just made of win. des highlights the weaknesses in ckd's position from several angles, with solid evidence backing himself up, and probes further by questioning ckd in regards to korts, showing how he is still investigating the connection between these two players, exactly as a legitimately curious townsperson would.

ckd saying ""vote is boring... and I think lacking" only tells me that he didn't think he should vote for you anymore. You aren't curious about what reason he had to vote rofl in the first place? You've said his vote is OMGUS, but he voted rofl before they started their exchange. ckd can't justify his vote retrospectively and you're ignoring this.

directed at korts again, simply brilliant. korts and ckd are all sorts of scum together.

DGB said rofl and I are 100% town, which seems a bigger statement than rofl ever made. I'm wondering why ckd and Kison are making rofl the bigger deal here and in fact saying nothing about DGB at all.

incredibly protown to point out the obvious double standard, and on top of that des was the first one to say anything about this inconsistency.

in closing, des shows the curiosity and determination of true scumhunting, something that is very close to impossible to fake so convincingly, and he's casting his net wide enough that he isn't ignoring other things that go on. scum don't scumhunt - scum try to look like they're scumhunting. des is actually scumhunting, and a read of him is peppered with other very pro town odds and ends, therefore des is not scum.

hopefully that "nips things in the bud"

[roflcopter]

Also, the reason I switched my vote to you is because you've shown resistance to multiple requests that you point out what Destructor has done to make you feel so certain he's town. That leads me to believe you simply said it without meaning it. Instead, ever since I pointed out that one thing I disliked, you've taken the stance that I'm scumnage rather than address my concern.

so, now that i've pointed out why i find des to be so protown, are you gonna stop voting me, or are you gonna manufacture another reason to keep your vote where it is?

love the graphic though