Mini #682: C9++ (Game Over!)

[Wall-E]

Any comments on my arguments against Zade?

I agree with your comments about zade. It may be a misunderstanding on zade's part, but I'd have to hear how from him/her before making that judgment call for sure.

[Kairyuu]

@Wall-E:

I was being facetious.

Tones get lost over the internet. I wasn't actually calling you out.

I agree with your comments about zade. It may be a misunderstanding on zade's part, but I'd have to hear how from him/her before making that judgment call for sure.

Elaborate please. Which comments are you agreeing with (I've made quite a few over the course of the game)?

[Scheherazade]

@Kairyuu:

Yours gves me the impression that you somehow know of SL's towniness, which implies that you would be using it as a way to fabricate a stronger case against sekinj. You also implied (seemingly, correct me if I'm wrong. I don't want to be a hypocrite) that even if SL was scum, you would be going after sekinj (because 'weaken' would mean the case was still there).

If springlullaby turned up mafia, I'd still suspect Sekinj a little. I'm not treating anything as certain. I don't think that's any more suspicious than those who suspected you mentioning the possibility that you and mykonian are playing a scum gambit. It's highly unlikely, but it's something to keep an eye on, wouldn't you agree?

I didn't mean to imply that I'd pursue a case against Sekinj no matter what. I said weaken because, honestly, I'd reexamine Sekinj, not drop the case entirely. I don't like absolutes. I think that got me in trouble before.

The fact that you would be going after sekinj even if SL was scum seems to indicate that you already knew the result of the cardflip.

This seems shaky to me. If I knew the result of springlullaby's lynch, then why exactly do you feel that examining the course of action I implied I would have taken in the case opposite of that you suppose I knew to be true is worthwhile? Further, what about saying "I'll be going after Sekinj even if springlullaby is scum" implies that I know that springlullaby is town?

I apologise if I'm simply misunderstanding you, as you and Wall-E have suggested.

[CF Riot]

Zade

,

SP

, Wolf: Have any of your suspicions changed from yesterday? Who are you all looking at the most, and did the SL lynch or the (lack of) night actions affect your opinions?

Sek

: Who's suspicious today and what did you learn from the SL-lynch?

Wolf hasn't posted yet and SP answered in an indirect way. I'd like an answer from Sek and Zade though.

[sekinj]

@CF - I really dislike being questioned in this manner. I don't need to be prompted as to the topics I'm going to discuss. And since I'm first on your list of scum you are not actually wanting the answers to those questions in good faith. Instead you are trying to trip me up in some way. It also allows you to look like you are active and scumhunting while providing no reasoning or position of your own.

However, I will answer anyway...

Right now I'm curious about the interactions between wall-e and Shez. and I'm still suspicious of you.

I learned SL was town.

[Wall-E]

First of all, I loved post 48. ++town points there. Second, you've claimed, and I have yet to see strong evidence you lied, so I'm on your side (face-value until proven scummy?). Third, you have been pushing for a zade lynch for nearly 8 pages, starting when you first asked him for a way to shorten his name, extending through your nicknaming of him... you almost obsess over his posts. If your assessment is accurate, town wins. If it's not, I'll probably build my case against you.

Your sureness I will follow like breadcrumbs, and based on where they lead us, I hope to learn something.

That might actually generate more questions, which I will answer, but you might not understand my weird brain.

[CF Riot]

Sek, again:

1) I'm not questioning just you, and

because

you're my top suspect, I need to know what's going on in your head

more

than anyone else in the game, so it's not a trip-up tactic. Not to mention the fact that

if

you're town you should welcome me trying to trip you up rather than be annoyed by it, because you've got no reason to "slip-up" since you're a truth telling townie with nothing to hide, and you can use my "manipulation" against you as evidence.

2) I've already laid out some "so-and-so's probably scum, so-and-so's probably town" statements, so I

am

taking a position of my own.

[Scheherazade]

@CF Riot: My suspicions haven't really changed. Obviously, I'm still watching Sekinj. There are a couple more whom I'm watching more closely than others, but I hardly think that I have enough to even suggest that they're mafia, so I'm going to keep my mouth shut for the time being, okay? Sekinj wasn't cleared by the lynch of springlullaby. I don't think that springlullaby's alignment really helps Sekinj's case, but it could still be mislynch by a townie.

As for the no night kill, I'm not sure that I have more to add right now. I don't want to discuss doctors/pro-town roleblockers right now. I'm inclined to think that we don't have a serial killer, based on last night's results. Short of a flash of inspiration, I'm not sure that I'm suddenly going to have great faith in one reading of the night's events or another. The best I'm hoping for is someone slipping in discussing the night's events. Sorry I don't have more to add.

@sekinj: Your second reading of my remarks to Wall-E was correct. I wasn't asking germy anything. And I'm not sure how it came off as worship.

As you're curious about the interaction between me and Wall-E, are there any questions you want to ask me? Or are you just waiting for more to happen?

[sekinj]

<snip>Not to mention the fact that

if

you're town you should welcome me trying to trip you up rather than be annoyed by it, because you've got no reason to "slip-up" since you're a truth telling townie with nothing to hide,<snip>

Tell that to SL

[wolframnhart]

OK i really feel the need to post here because i know i am not helping out as much as my predecessor was in his posts and i really don't like not contributing. I admit I am a little confused to the set up of the game and i can't quite get the hang of the roles out there to help me cross out suspects.

For now i still believe the kair and myko mason claim. Could scum have targeted one of them last night and be blocked? Of course, but i would think scum might not target them only because if they killed one the other would be automatically (in my eyes at least feel free to argue with me) cleared of being scum, so with a confirmed townie all they way they would almost have to kill off that person the next night, there by eliminating the possibility of hitting a power role of doc/cop, and the fact that the doc might protect that mason that was left, which nullifies the kill and really hurts the scum. It would have been better for them to target someone else, and perhaps they did and maybe targeted Germy because of his soft claim, and the doc might have guessed that and protected Germy last night, if that is the complete case bravo to the doc.

I don't believe we have a SK in the set up thought because it wouldn't make sense to not kill off a person last night if we did have an SK. In fact if we had an SK, we might still think we don't because his kill would probably been played off as a mafia kill, but again if you disagree with that feel free to argue.

I would like to know one thing because i might have missed it, but Wall-E did you ever post you reasons for voting sek?

[Wall-E]

I would like to know one thing because i might have missed it, but Wall-E did you ever post you reasons for voting sek? - Quote from wolframnhart

Not yet.

[Kairyuu]

@Zade:

If springlullaby turned up mafia, I'd still suspect Sekinj a little. I'm not treating anything as certain. I don't think that's any more suspicious than those who suspected you mentioning the possibility that you and mykonian are playing a scum gambit. It's highly unlikely, but it's something to keep an eye on, wouldn't you agree?

Sekinj going after SL until the lynch if they were both scum would actually be a rather good example of the newest addition to the mafiawiki's gambits section, which one of our very own came up with and implemented to win in his first game on MS as scum (germy's gambit).

I didn't mean to imply that I'd pursue a case against Sekinj no matter what. I said weaken because, honestly, I'd reexamine Sekinj, not drop the case entirely. I don't like absolutes. I think that got me in trouble before.

I suppose this is a good enough explanation for me. I still don't really like what I read as the implications of your point, but I've run out of things I can say about it to try to explain it to you. At this point I'll reduce it to more of just a feeling I got when I read it.

This seems shaky to me.

If I knew the result of springlullaby's lynch, then why exactly do you feel that examining the course of action I implied I would have taken in the case opposite of that you suppose I knew to be true is worthwhile?

Further, what about saying "I'll be going after Sekinj even if springlullaby is scum" implies that I know that springlullaby is town?

Bolded: Because if you didn't at least appear to consider the alternative, then you would appear even more committed to the movement from the SL lynch to the sekinj lynch, and you would definitely appear to know how the flip would go.

Italics: It implies that you know because it looks like you are just trying to find reasons to go after sekinj D2, regardless of her alignment. This tells me that you don't care about her alignment, which in turn tells me that you already know it, which would mean that you are scum, and would therefore mean that she is town.

I apologise if I'm simply misunderstanding you, as you and Wall-E have suggested.

I didn't think you were, or I would have pointed it out.

I like you play actually. It's quite good, and has been getting better as the game has gone on. You are very logical, which is the quality I prize most in someone who plays mafia. This makes you very dangerous if you are scum, because it is much harder to make a case stick (as is obvious by my many ceded points). You actually remind me of another player who I liked playing with very much, Save the Dragons (STD), who was one of the ICs in my newbie game.

I am seriously considering swapping to sekinj to see the cardflip, because if she is scum then there is little chance that you are too (which would mean I was chasing my own tail since page 2 ).

@Wall-E:

First of all, I loved post 48. ++town points there.

Second, you've claimed, and I have yet to see strong evidence you lied, so I'm on your side (face-value until proven scummy?).

Third, you have been pushing for a zade lynch for nearly 8 pages,

starting when you first asked him for a way to shorten his name, extending through your nicknaming of him... you almost obsess over his posts.

If your assessment is accurate, town wins.

If it's not, I'll probably build my case against you.

To start,

There don't seem to be very many people who actually like the way I play. Hell, I'd have been lynched if I couldn't confirm myself in this game. To find someone who actually agrees with my playstyle is quite nice.

Bolded: I don't play for town points. I play to catch scum. While it is nice that you find me pro-town, please do not let that affact the way you play the game. If I do something you find scummy, call me out for it.

Italics: I like that phrase (pro-town until proven scummy). It's the way I generally play, so I can't fault you for it.

Underlined: More than that. I've been pushing for Zade's lynch since I called out afatchic on page 2 or 3. Afatchic's responses made me convinced that he was scum, but Zade's play is good, and I'm leaning towards confirming his alignment indirectly through his (and much of the town's) top suspect, rather than the other way around, because if he is town and I've been jumping at shadows the whole time, then I'll be really pissed at myself for getting a very logical player lynched.

Bold and underlined: And how is that? It would mean that we've caught one scum, and that two more remain to find. I'd say that we wouldn't be overly close to winning yet.

All three: So you think that townies can't be wrong about something they feel strongly about? That makes no sense logically. If anything I would say that I look more town simply by sticking with the case so long, even though it has become almost impossible to get new points to stick. When I look for scum, the players that hold strong convictions for a long time generally don't ping my radar, even if they are wrong. Probably just a difference of playstyle.

@sekinj:

Tell that to SL

One problem though. As far as I can tell, no one tried to 'trip up' SL, and (at least for me) the reason that she was suspect was because she was doing exactly what you are sort of doing, dodging questions and trying to turn everything against her questioners. The fact that she flipped town doesn't make the action any less scummy.

FOS: sekinj

[iamausername]

Votecount #20!

sekinj (3) - Wall-E, CF Riot, germy
Scheherazade (2) - mykonian, Kairyuu
Artem (1) - SilverPhoenix

Not voting (5) - Scheherazade, Artem, Scigatt, wolframnhart, sekinj

6 to lynch.

[sekinj]

Hmm...

Okay, what the heck is the case on Scheherazade? I've read hers and afat's posts but nothing seems scummy enough to warrant this attention.

Are you really just waiting for everyone to re-explain themselves? read the freaking thread.

Hint: Kair had the biggest case, but is now wussing out.

[Kairyuu]

@sekinj:

Hint: Kair had the biggest case, but is now wussing out.

Naw. I'm

seriously considering

wussing out. Not the same thing.

I just like the way Zade plays, that's all. The majority of the town is leaning towards your lynch, and I agree with germy's idea (though I still hold onto the distant hope that people will actually side with the closest things to confirmed townies we have in this game).

Let's put it this way. I don't really think you are scum based on your play, but others do. If you and Wall-E (who claims to be following my lead but isn't voting with me) vote for Zade, who myko and I think are scum, then germy's stated hopes (and his previous vote) will likely lead him to move his vote as well. That brings us to 5 votes on Zade, with 6 to lynch. Then, if Artem wants to put a vote on his two time biggest D1 target, we have a lynch (I will unvote and then be the hammer if people are too afraid to).

So you see, if one or two things shift my way, then we are looking at an avalanche of votes going where I think they belong. Get it?

[Kairyuu]

Oh yeah, and I've solved the problem with Mini 681 by offering to replace in, so you'll get to deal with me in two games at once. Lucky you.

[Scheherazade]

@sekinj: I wanted to mention this again in case you had missed it.

@sekinj: Your second reading of my remarks to Wall-E was correct. I wasn't asking germy anything. And I'm not sure how it came off as worship.

As you're curious about the interaction between me and Wall-E, are there any questions you want to ask me? Or are you just waiting for more to happen?

@Kairyuu:

Okay, I think we're square except for one thing:

Because if you didn't at least appear to consider the alternative, then you would appear even more committed to the movement from the SL lynch to the sekinj lynch, and you would definitely appear to know how the flip would go.

My question, which was rather excessively verbose, wasn't "If I were scum, why would I mention the case I knew wouldn't be true?" but "What makes you think examining what you can only think is a lie is worthwhile?" I ask because if your assumption were true, my motives for implying the opposite could be true are obvious (the motives you mention in the quote above).

I think it's become more a point of interest to me than one very relevant to the argument you're explaining, for the record.

Oh, and I'm glad I remind you of a STD you encountered once.

[Kairyuu]

"What makes you think examining what you can only think is a lie is worthwhile?"

I apologize for misreading what you asked me, and apologize again because I'll need you to ask again. I don't really understand the wording of the question. To me it seems like you are asking the question I already answered again. I know this to not be true, so I'll need some clarification here.

Oh, and I'm glad I remind you of a STD you encountered once.

Yup. You should read the game (Newbie 661). It was a good one. We lynched the scum RB D1 (mostly because I'm more stubborn than almost anyone you will ever meet ) and then that broke the game for us, netting the town a perfect win in my first ever game of mafia.

[Kairyuu]

One more thing before sleep.

@Wall-E: Can I put this:

If your assessment is accurate, town wins. If it's not, I'll probably build my case against you.

and this:

Your sureness I will follow like breadcrumbs, and based on where they lead us, I hope to learn something.

in my wiki page?

[Scheherazade]

@Kairyuu:

If I were scum, I'd have known that springlullaby would turn out town. Therefore, if I talked about her flipping scum, it would be, as you said, a give-away that I knew springlullaby's alignment not to talk about her flipping scum. However, when I talked about her flipping scum, it would all be fabrication.

Now, you assumed it was fabrication because you assumed my guilt, right? And the fabrication you saw was an implied "I'll be going after sekinj even if springlullaby turns up scum." If you believed that implied statement, then you'd have a reason to suspect me. But you believed that statement was part of a lie to bolster my credibility.

So I was asking about what use you saw in examining the lie in the manner that you did. You assumed it was a lie, therefore you couldn't take the statements I made as part of it at face-value, right? But it seems like you did, partly, when you said "The fact that you would be going after sekinj even if SL was scum seems to indicate that you already knew the result of the cardflip." I'm not trying to wrestle you in to a black or white position--i.e. either it's a lie and none of it can be trusted or it isn't a lie and can therefore be used against me--I'm trying to figure out what that grey margin you saw was.

[Wall-E]

@Wall-E:

First of all, I loved post 48. ++town points there.

Second, you've claimed, and I have yet to see strong evidence you lied, so I'm on your side (face-value until proven scummy?).

Third, you have been pushing for a zade lynch for nearly 8 pages,

starting when you first asked him for a way to shorten his name, extending through your nicknaming of him... you almost obsess over his posts.

If your assessment is accurate, town wins.

If it's not, I'll probably build my case against you.

There don't seem to be very many people who actually like the way I play. Hell, I'd have been lynched if I couldn't confirm myself in this game. To find someone who actually agrees with my playstyle is quite nice.

You don't earn respect from mafia players by making friends. It's one of life's many contradictions.

Bolded: I don't play for town points. I play to catch scum. While it is nice that you find me pro-town, please do not let that affact the way you play the game. If I do something you find scummy, call me out for it.

Granted. Still, endorsements are sometimes important, too.

Italics: I like that phrase (pro-town until proven scummy). It's the way I generally play, so I can't fault you for it.

It's math. 1/9 people is scum (roughly). The probability that any random player is scum is lower than that he's town. I will usually vote for someone once I'm 50% sure they're scum.

Underlined: More than that. I've been pushing for Zade's lynch since I called out afatchic on page 2 or 3. Afatchic's responses made me convinced that he was scum, but Zade's play is good, and I'm leaning towards confirming his alignment indirectly through his (and much of the town's) top suspect, rather than the other way around, because if he is town and I've been jumping at shadows the whole time, then I'll be really pissed at myself for getting a very logical player lynched.

I'd go along with that.

Bold and underlined: And how is that? It would mean that we've caught one scum, and that two more remain to find. I'd say that we wouldn't be overly close to winning yet.

We're always one lynch and a good vigging away from kicking ass. Don't lose heart!

All three: So you think that townies can't be wrong about something they feel strongly about? That makes no sense logically. If anything I would say that I look more town simply by sticking with the case so long, even though it has become almost impossible to get new points to stick. When I look for scum, the players that hold strong convictions for a long time generally don't ping my radar, even if they are wrong. Probably just a difference of playstyle.

Granted. I think I meant that more like a backup plan, and even then I'd have to actually have said case to build, so if you're innocent, no worries, right?

[mykonian]

Bunch of new suspects for me:

Scigatt: what does he do? I don't hear a lot of him, and he enters the bandwagon on SL in a very weird (scummy) way. His only post today is one to defend zade.
Why aren't we suspecting SP? Yesterday he tried to spread some uncertainty, and today he continue's. Weak scum.

Sekinj isn't town to me, but neutral still.
CF is still on my list, he can't really confince me
Zade is on top of the list, together with scigatt.

[mykonian]

And I think lynching germy could be a very big mistake, as he can help town.

[CF Riot]

Hmm, I guess it's tradition or something that everyone be asked a question twice before they answer.

Wolframnhart:

Have any of your suspicions changed from yesterday? Who are you all looking at the most, and did the SL lynch or the (lack of) night actions affect your opinions?

Myko: I agree with Scigatt, but I'm confused with SP. What has he done that you consider spreading uncertainty?

[mykonian]

going after artem now. And the way how he did it. SP was town to me before, but now I'm not that sure. Call it a mFoS. Also he says we shouldn't go after the targets of yesterday, because just before the lynch interesting things happened. Please tell me who is scum, then. Until then I call this a weak defense of a scumpartner under pressure.