Mini 698 - Georgetown Mafia - Game over

[Cephrir]

/confirm

[Cephrir]

Vote: MacavityLock

. Hmm, I feel like I've heard that name before... >.>

[Cephrir]

Unvote, Vote: Evilgorrilaz

I found a scum! All aboard!

[Cephrir]

Unvote, Vote: Evilgorrilaz

I found a scum! All aboard!

Reasoning please!

Later!

[Cephrir]

So, please explain to us what is in your magic bag Cephir.

As I'm fairly certain Primate has figured out, I was just 1) getting us out of the random voting stage and 2) getting reactions. I seem to have succeeded on both counts.

Also, I assumed Primate was just screwing around to see how long he could keep that up before someone atacked him for it. If that is actually a post restriction, well, that would be weird.

Unvote, FoS StrangerCoug

for flipping out. Although he did play scummily as town in the other game I've played with him.

[Cephrir]

SC... you just quoted Corvuus saying speculation was useless, agreed, then basically speculated on the setup based on what hasn't even happened yet. How about we work it out when it happens.

[Cephrir]

Be careful, MiteyMouse—as well as that works, there are no universal rules to scumhunting.

Not true. It doesn't work at all because everyone knows about it, and this has been the case for at least as long as I've been here.

In my very limited experience, the people that usually let little slips are Town as Town is less careful.

Dangerous assumption.

At any rate... evidently a lot of this town is pretty useless. Corvuus never does anything but sidetrack as of yet and we have lurkers. I've obviously succeeded in getting the game rolling but evidently only in the sense that I'm now on everyone's scumlist. I'd like to at least put some pressure somewhere, and from what I've seen so far, I think a

Vote: SrangerCoug

can only do good.

[Cephrir]

1. Vote 'random' player
2. Say "I found scum!"
3. "i will give reason later, all aboard the quicklynch train"
4. "I didn't mean it... just getting reactions"

Doesn't work that great.

It got you on everyone's scum list (as you pointed out) and it only semi-started the game. There should be a better way to get response/reactions out of people without having to be anti-town-ish.

Meh. It worked. I'm thinking we'd still be random voting.

@Primate voters: even if Primate is faking a PR, I don't think it's scummy. Antitown, perhaps, but not scummy. And I'm far from positive that he's making it up anyway.

[Cephrir]

I don't associate post restrictions with mini normals, nor do I think the pictures in and of themselves warrant a vote. If Primate is allowed to speak in words, I'd rather he do so, but his actions are not per se scummy.

Exactly.

So I think that at the very LEAST he can type "Vote: Insert name" to show that he can at least contribute that. But if he doesn't vote, then that is so glaring anti-town that we pretty much would have to get rid of him just to move on.

You'll notice he is currently voting.

[Cephrir]

his picture post formats weird for me and places his vote in the far bottom right corner.

I didn't see it, and frankly, I am still going to vote for him until he posts a response/says something.

Corv

That's helpful.

[Cephrir]

Hm. Actually, you're probably right.

[Cephrir]

Unvote, Vote: Primate

because stop.

[Cephrir]

I'm sorry, Corvuus, but I'm not convinced by your case on Primate here.

Cephrir, nice job agreeing with Corvuus and joining the Primate wagon without adding any real content yourself.

FoS: Cephrir

I'll explain my thoughts later. Just go with it, K?

[Cephrir]

I've got a question for Primate. You seem pretty set on StrangerCoug being guilty do you have any extra info as part of Role that would give you this info? If not can you show us some quotes that have given you this high suspicion of Coug?

Stop fishing.

[Cephrir]

If you're giving up, I will as well. I was hoping if we got enough votes on Primate he would give it up, but if the wagon's greatest supporter is going to jump ship it'll never work.

Unvote

.

[Cephrir]

I'm getting a minor Scummy vibe from Cephir. This is mostly the vote without reasoning thing. Just coming from a game that I had a posting restriction in, I am willing to give Primate the benefit of the doubt right now....it is not easy and he has been doing pretty well with getting his point across with it.

I've explained every vote afterwards. Just not when saying so would defeat the purpose.

I don't see why a townie would try to defend Primate (at least, let him answer!) and I also don't see why Primate would certainly point you out SC unless you were both scum and he knows and is trying to leverage it into a good future play.

Fail. Primate pointed out SC because he thinks he's scum, and incidentally you even agree with him. Assuming everything is bussing is not a good strategy.

SC, why don't you tell us what you think of who is your top two picks for being the most scummy.

It was you and Cephrir for the Primate case (you were pushing a utility lynch, Cephrir was mindlessly bandwagoning), but it's now Zeppo007 and Cephrir.

Not much has changed in terms of Cephrir, and I have seen him play more pro-town than hesitating to explain his votes.

I have not mindlessly bandwaggoned in this game. Each time I have had a reason. As I just explained, my Primate vote was intended to run him up far enough to force him to drop the PR. As I pretty much expected, no one got it and instead people suspected me for it.

I'm sorry, Corvuus, but I'm not convinced by your case on Primate here.

Cephrir, nice job agreeing with Corvuus and joining the Primate wagon without adding any real content yourself.

FoS: Cephrir

SC, You haven't added any real content yourself but just point out what others are doing that 'is wrong'. You also don't take a definite stand on things but just vote/unvote.

And it is wrong to call Cephrir out for just going with the flow? Quality ≠ quantity.

Funny how going with the flow is exactly the opposite of the reason why I'm suspected. As I explained but you apparently skimmed, I was making that vote for reasons entirely independent of Corvuus', but explaining those reasons with the vote would have made them obsolete because then Primate would have known we had no intent to lynch him.

[Cephrir]

That is a logical fallacy. I am stating that townies would DEFEND themselves. Primate said SC is scum twice, and has voted for him with no stated reasons.

SC ignored this and didn't defend himself, point it out, etc.

What you're ignoring is that defending oneself is not the same as attacking your attackers. Defending himself is precisely what SC just attempted to do. What MacavityLock was pointing out is that since townies can attack other townies, it is possible to be attacked by someone and still not think they are scum. The second and third sentences of what I just quoted have

noting to do with one another.

So you are asking me to ignore this glaring inconsistency where Primate has voted for SC (not random vote, Evilgorrilaz was Primate's random vote) and has made two pictures of SC being scum.

Primate is obviously choosing to render himself incapable of giving reasons. However this is a good point.

[Cephrir]

Corvuus: I t seemed like you were equating "defending himself" with "attacking Primate" but I get what you're saying now.

[Cephrir]

Yes, we know talking about ongoing games is bad. Lengthy explanation is unnecessary.

[Cephrir]

...................

I don't agree with anyone ever posting simply to avoid a prod.

You have nothing new to add? You could clarify what you think about Primate, SC, me, etc. instead of saying nothing. Go on record with an actual 'stance'.

Saying nothing is horribly anti-town and no townie should actively try to say nothing since it doesn't let others see if you are town or scum and by actually posting and taking a stand, people could see if you were town based on your actions.

With none existent posting, no input, etc. then yeah, I am going to FoS you just for discussion alone.

FoS: MacavityLock

Corvuus

Saying nothing =/= intentionally saying nothing. Not having a lot to contribute for a brief period is not a scumtell. If he continues to say nothing fell free to attack him, but this is quite overzealous.

[Cephrir]

No, I didn't say that. I just said it wasn't a tell.

[Cephrir]

No, I didn't say that. I just said it wasn't a tell.

I don't agree with this. He's being anti-town by withholding thoughts.

Antitown =/= scum.

Don't even send Primate a prod, just replace him. Come on mod, don't be antitown. Replace him even if he keeps posting.

>.>

[Cephrir]

don't get what you are saying in all of this Cephrir.

I didn't say anti-town = scum. I said and still believe that blatantly posting to avoid a prod is anti-town. It would take a lot (perhaps the moon changing orbit) to change my mind.

You FoS'ed him for it. That's implying you think it makes him scum.

My top suspect at this point is Cephir for the voting without reasoning and refusing to tell us why when asked. I hate magic bags!

Every time someone mentions this, Cephir says "But I always explained them afterwards" as a defense, which I find acceptable (not that I found it scummy in the first place). To avoid repetition, could you respond to one of several said defenses?

QFT.

[Cephrir]

- Thirdly I don't like Cephrir's post about just replacing primate because he is anti-town. If he doesn't pick up his prod then he should be replaced.

I thought it was pretty obvious I wasn't serious. Well, I was, but also not because I obviously knew that it wouldn't happen. I don't know what you have against Primate being replaced though... honestly I think not wanting him replaced is antitown.

I'm beginning to think that people are suspicious of me because they've taken everything I've done this game completely seriously. Don't.

[Cephrir]

*happy dance*

Based on recent posts by MM and Macavity, I think Macavity wins the argument, but I haven't been following that back-and-forth too attentively.

[Cephrir]

I'll have to read through all that again later before I can comprehend it.

[Cephrir]

Well, on page 3 he tried to pull a quicklynch on Evilgorrilaz (when he was playing), and when prompted to give a reason, he simply said "later". Personally, I believe that's a little stupid. I believe (when you're pas the random voting stage) that you have to give your reasons to vote on someone. Keeping them concealed and not telling pretty much leaves most others (like me) thinking there is no reasoning behind it, or it might be a scum at work, trying to scrape a quick kill.
He then backs behind a shield of "I did it to get reactions" and "to get us out of the random voting stage".
That's just a little suspect for me. Or maybe I'm just overly paranoid.

Wow... really? First off, I never "tried to get a quicklynch". I never, ever, had even the slightest intention to lynch anyone on page 3 and I probably never will. It seems to me that you've taken what is really a reasonable action that isn't really a tell and put scummy motives behind it that are just stupid... even

scum

wouldn't be stupid enough to lynch someone on page 3, and if someone did quicklynch him then great, we just found scum. As I've explained a lot of times, if I gave my reasons at the time (to get reactions both from him and others) i woud have been utterly self-defeating. That's like pressure voting someone and telling them it's just for pressure; if they know you don't really find them suspicious they won't actually feel pressured.

So basically... What makes you think I wasn't being genuine?

[Cephrir]

1. We don't know if SC is scum or not, we exert pressure/voting him/ and getting a response out of him and let him defend himself. No intent to quicklynch.

This is fail because you just told SC of your intent.

Other than that, Corvuus' post really makes me think he is town.

Cephrir is my #2 for reasons already stated, mainly his withholding his reason for voting Evilgorillaz and finally answering by saying he was trying to get us out of the random voting stage (which I don't buy—there are more pro-town ways to go about it).

...

[Cephrir]

What's the sad face for?

Explained it infinite times, etc.

[Cephrir]

Mitey

:

Every time someone mentions this, Cephir says "But I always explained them [my votes] afterwards" as a defense, which I find acceptable (not that I found it scummy in the first place). To avoid repetition, could you respond to one of several said defenses?

I think it's important that you refute a defense provided by your top suspect (still Cephir, right?). Right now I don't see you doing anything with him.

To me Cephir's defence was not really a defence. Getting out of the random stage is going to happen...rushing it just made him look Scummy to me.

So why is trying to accelerate that process scummy? More importantly why haven't you seen anything more compellingly scummy since then?

That SC wagon looks better every minute. Actually,

Vote: SC

. His most recent few posts have really sealed it for me, and now he's backing off Ythill which seems to me like a total cop-out to the accusation of his rapidly changing suspicions (which, incidentally, is not a bad tell IMO). Note that this is a L-1 vote.

[Cephrir]

Meanwhile... Mitey, I don't think you have much of a case against Ceph, but I do dislike the dangerous defense vote he's made.

Huh?

[Cephrir]

Sigh. I am getting really sick of doc claims.

Meanwhile... Mitey, I don't think you have much of a case against Ceph, but I do dislike the dangerous defense vote he's made.

Huh?

You know, the whole I'm-not-scummy-look-at-him thing in your last post. I don't know that I feel it's a scumtell, but I certainly don't think it helps the town.

Quickly reasoned votes are okay. Not @ L-1 though.

Meh. The two things really weren't connected. I see where you're coming from though.

Unvote

, and dammit. I don't believe SC at all but it's still not a good plan to lynch him.

[Cephrir]

Apoth, that doesn't answer the question at all.

Possible LA for a couple days.

[Cephrir]

It is kind of ironic that SC says apologies don't change anything, then apologizes in the same post.
I thought those things because I want to have, as I said before, an objective and pragmatic viewpoint. I suppose that clouded my judgement a bit.

"I was trying to be objective, and I guess that clouded my viewpoint."

Wha? Also, is there any actual reasoning behind 379 based on SC's actions?

SC's reaction to 379 is almost as though it's not SC himself who was the one Apoth was talking about. Weird.

[Cephrir]

I've been reading the WoWs... well, most of them >.>

In other news, Apoth is imploding.

[Cephrir]

Ceph...You mentioned that you read MOST of the walls of posts. Don't you think it's a bit Scummy not to be fully reading?

No.

[Cephrir]

SC-Corvuus makes me want to strangle

someone

SC.

Fixed.

Apologies for uselessness, need to reread, etc.

[Cephrir]

...I wasn't misrepresenting anything. I was giving my own opinion. I don't think it was terribly hard to figure that one out. Way to take me too seriously and blow it way out of proportion.

[Cephrir]

Unvote

.

SC, do you have any games in which you have been scum and were lynched or nearly lynched, and/or in which you fake-claimed a PR?

[Cephrir]

No worries, I'm sure others understand what I meant. Let me simplify, just in case.

Your argument: If we remove "feel" and "seems" from your case on me, it is just as valid as my case on Atlas. So let's ignore "feel" and "seems". We now have two equally valid cases. Either they are both valid or they are both invalid.

If they are both invalid, then you have no reason to continue suspecting me, but you do still suspect me, so this cannot be true. Therefore, they must both be valid.

So you are saying that I (who you assume scum) have made a valid case against another player, in your opinion. Since scum, by their very nature, do not make valid cases, you are saying that I am town. But also that I am scum.

To the penut gallery: I really want to hear others' opinions about this specific point.

This logical fallacy is the result of some weird wording on Llama's part, I think. Unless he was actually intentionally saying that his case and yours were of roughly equal calibur. More importantly, to say that scum don't make valid cases is a bit odd. Scum are perfectly capable of creating well-reasoned cases that are pretty convincing and can, in fact, be true (if they're bussing).

Ceph....I'm not really sure what to do with you here. I have asked you to elaborate on why you don't think that not fully reading is Scummy and you have not answered.

If you can tell me why scum are more likely to be bored by certain exchanges than town, be my guest. I'm sure I'm not the only one who eventually just couldn't bear the walls of words.

Your actions may not be Scummy but, there are not pro Town.

And whathave you done that's so very protown?

And the topper for me is that you are voting for the preson who is claiming to be our Doctor (I know that you took the vote off now but, it was there for a while after he claimed). I'm just not getting any good feelings from you!

Vote Ceph

Well yeah, that's because I thought I had already unvoted. I don't know why you would find it scummy had I just left the vote on, though... are you saying that you totally believe SC?

FoS MM

for being SC's scumbuddy.

[Cephrir]

Also, I see SC does have the capacity to fake a non-doc role. I may have to check out those games at some point.

[Cephrir]

I knew someone would say that. Anytime anyone even slightly suspects anyone who's attacking them, it just flies around whether or not it's justified.

[Cephrir]

Cephrir, you FoS'd MiteyMouse specifically for being my scumbuddy. How can you accuse player X of being player Y's scumbuddy when player Y's alignment is not confirmed?

I was just saying that I think you're both scum, but I'm fairly confident about your alignment so I think I can pretty reasonably call anyone else I think may be scum your scumbuddy. There's also the part where MM's post seemed to show that she considers you a beacon of protownness, which I find slightly suspect and possibly indicative of a connection. But mostly, the answer to your question is 'hyperbole'.

Which fallacy is it, and why?

It has to be a specific one? Maybe I don't know what 'fallacy' means, then. Let's call it a logical error then, although Llama seems to be saying that my theory was wrong anyhow:

Multiple times you have dismissed parts of my case because of my word choice, not because of what I am agruing. This really pisses me off because I get the feeling that you are trying to take down my case by refuting how I am presenting it instead of what I am saying.

This is true, by the way.

You're both just getting into semantics about the way Llama's wording his posts. What SC just quoted may be a contradiction, but I also think Ythill is being intentionally dense. He also hasn't made any attempt to deal with what Llama just pointed out, that he's been dismissing some of Llama's case based on its wording when it's pretty obvious that he didn't mean what it's being taken to mean.

In other words, you're both ridiculous.

[Cephrir]

Is it that difficult to list two names?

I think Ythill is more likely scum than Llama FTR, but it's also very possible that they're bboth town.

[Cephrir]

So you're saying that a random vote can't also be a vote that gets a reaction? I chose someone that I wanted to get a a response out of. It wouldn't have been any different if I had chosen others like Macavity.

just to get discussion moving Vote: Corvuus

I believe (when you're pas the random voting stage) that you have to give your reasons to vote on someone. Keeping them concealed and not telling pretty much leaves most others (like me) thinking there is no reasoning behind it, or it might be a scum at work, trying to scrape a quick kill.
He then backs behind a shield of "I did it to get reactions" and "to get us out of the random voting stage".
That's just a little suspect for me. Or maybe I'm just overly paranoid.

So why is this not OK when I do it?

[Cephrir]

And to answer your question Ceph...scum don't have to fully read as they already know alignments.

Yes, but they still need to look for power roles and come up with fake suspects.

That is what makes me think that you not fully reading is a Scum tell. Also, you got very defensive, if not over defencive after I voted you...you even FOSed me for being a Scumbuddy even though we don't have a confirmed Scum yet. [/quote]
Overdefensiveness if not a scumtell, it's a natural reaction. And yes, we do have an all but confirmed scum. His name is StrangerCoug.

@Llama: I've been caught up. Is there something I'm not commenting on that I should be?

Anyway, I'm happy lynching either Apoth or MM today. I would only be mildly surprised if Apoth/MM/SC were all scum. If any of them is town they can be replaced by Ythill. If I had to pick Apoth or MM for scum in a void I think I'd go for MM, but now that Apoth has claimed vanilla it's probably best to lynch him. Consider this an

FoV

because having people at L-1 makes me slightly nervous. The recent post about no lynching being better than lynching him is just awful, especially since we started with an odd number.

[Cephrir]

FoV? Is that a Finger of Voting? I'm not sure I get it.

Finger of Vote. It means my vote's effectively on him except for the part where he actually gains a vote, or just an intent to vote. Turns out it's a good thing I didn't, I was believing Ythill's count.

No way, active lurker >>> claimed vanilla.

I disagree. And besides, it's not like Apoth will make it through the game without being lynched (barring something really good, right now), and it's not like MM will get through the game without getting wagoned.

[Cephrir]

Yeah, I think the scum can probably figure out which directions tomorrow is likely to go in. We can do it, or not, I don't really think it matters except in the case of anyone who doesn't have any definite suspects.

Apoth's post doesn't do a whole lot for me, still willing to lynch him.

[Cephrir]

@Apoc, Ceph, Jazz - Who is your top suspect, and what is preventing a vote?

Assuming you mean top non-SC suspect, that'd be MM. I'm not voting her because it looks like it's pointless. I'd vote Apoth if I knew how many votes he had.

[Cephrir]

Eh, Apoth is my second suspect so he's OK with me honestly.

[Cephrir]

I went away this weekend and nothing happened. Yay, I guess.

Is that L-1? I'm willing to hammer, I'm done with both Apoth and this day.

[Cephrir]

MM's being replaced? Wow, I missed that.

[Cephrir]

Ceph - No vote yet? Why?

No reason, I suppose.

Vote: MM

[Cephrir]

Seeing as I'm voting MM I think it's obvious I think MM is scummier than Apoth, but I'm fine with lynching Apoth too as I've stated a lot of times.

[Cephrir]

I wouldn't call SC the easy lynch, its actually proving difficult to convince enough people to vote for him.

Hey, Cephrir, you're theoretically convinced enough that SC is scum to be voting me because I'm supposed to be his scumbuddy. Shouldn't you be helping lynch him before you try to lead a lynch based on positively knowing his alignment?

I've said quite a few times now that that's not my reason for voting MM/you. It's just a comment I made based on my belief that both of you are scum, it has nothing to do with links between the two of you. Well, there are some links, but that was not a huge factor.

That said, SC is a good lynch today as well. I'd like to know tomorrow why you think I'm scum, OGML, but I'll go with it. SC's more likely scum IMO than Apoth, and lynching you doesn't seem like it's going to happen. I still think you and SC are both scum. Let's face it, that would be a pretty good bus right now.

But it's not like the scum would ever kill a hypothetically town SC anyway.

Unvote, Vote SC

[Cephrir]

Well, that's bizarre. I could go into my WIFOM thought process about it, but I won't.

It's hard to read a lot into SC because he was just all over the place. There's certainly nothing preventing OGML from being his buddy so I'll go with my thought from yesterday.

Vote: OGML

[Cephrir]

OGML, you have yet to give any reasons why I'm scum.

[Cephrir]

You're hilarious.

[Cephrir]

Explaining your votes, however,

is

helpful.

[Cephrir]

Explaining your votes, however,

is

helpful.

I found a scum! All aboard!

Reasoning please!

Later!

In the words of primate,

Yeah, but I had a reason.

Unvote, FoS StrangerCoug

for flipping out. Although he did play scummily as town in the other game I've played with him.

You couldn't make yourself more obvious.

Well, it's true. I always think he's scum.

I've obviously succeeded in getting the game rolling but evidently only in the sense that I'm now on everyone's scumlist. I'd like to at least put some pressure somewhere, and from what I've seen so far, I think a

Vote: SrangerCoug

can only do good.

What better way to get suspicion off of yourself than to ramp up the bussing of your partner.

This can easily be taken as bussing or not and you've apparently decided that I'm scum so of course you'd think so.

Unvote, Vote: Primate

because stop.

But only until you find a reason to vote for someone else. A reason, I might add, which doesn't seem to have anything at all to do with actually thinking Primate was scum.

No, it had a lot to do with gettinig him to stop the fake PR though.

Cephrir is my #2 for reasons already stated, mainly his withholding his reason for voting Evilgorillaz and finally answering by saying he was trying to get us out of the random voting stage (which I don't buy—there are more pro-town ways to go about it).

Number two on a scumlist is a wonderfully safe way to distance your partner, eh?

So are numbers 1 and 3.

That SC wagon looks better every minute. Actually, Vote: SC. His most recent few posts have really sealed it for me, and now he's backing off Ythill which seems to me like a total cop-out to the accusation of his rapidly changing suspicions (which, incidentally, is not a bad tell IMO). Note that this is a L-1 vote.

Uh ohs, SC is crashing and burning at an alarming rate, better get back on that wagon quick! But remember everyone, this is the L-1 vote, don't lynch him before he has time to fakeclaim something.

You're right, it's much better not to say anything so that he might be quicklynched

You know, the whole I'm-not-scummy-look-at-him thing in your last post. I don't know that I feel it's a scumtell, but I certainly don't think it helps the town.

Meh. The two things really weren't connected. I see where you're coming from though.

Ythill makes a great point against Cephrir, and all he can really do is acknowledge that Y is right on and hope it gets forgotten about.

There was nothing to defend from.

Unvote

, and dammit. I don't believe SC at all but it's still not a good plan to lynch him.

Sweet, my scum power role partner gets to live another day! But he'll obviously be dead sooner rather than later, so better remind everyone that I still think he's scum.

Or alternatively, lynching claimed docs is usually not a good play. Why aren't you suspicious of everyone else who did this?

FoS MM

for being SC's scumbuddy.

Setting up the fall guy

Are you kidding me? It's called having a suspect. If anything that's exactly what you did to me yesterday.

Cephrir, you FoS'd MiteyMouse specifically for being my scumbuddy. How can you accuse player X of being player Y's scumbuddy when player Y's alignment is not confirmed?

SC helps set up the fall guy

I don't see how this quote from SC has much of anything to do with what I said.

Overdefensiveness if not a scumtell, it's a natural reaction. And yes, we do have an all but confirmed scum. His name is StrangerCoug.

Remember guys, I never stopped thinking he was scum!!!

Neither did anyone!

@Apoc, Ceph, Jazz - Who is your top suspect, and what is preventing a vote?

Assuming you mean top non-SC suspect, that'd be MM. I'm not voting her because it looks like it's pointless. I'd vote Apoth if I knew how many votes he had.

Eh, Apoth is my second suspect so he's OK with me honestly.

Thats strange.

The latter quote discounts SC as a possible lynch for the day.

I went away this weekend and nothing happened. Yay, I guess.

Is that L-1? I'm willing to hammer, I'm done with both Apoth and this day.

I'm trying to figure out where you started thinking Apoth was likely to be scum, but all I can find is your comment that he's "imploding." Yays, stupid townies are easy mislynches!

I think I stated several times that he was either my 2nd/3rd suspect, which changed a few times. Also, imploding means imploding scum.

Seeing as I'm voting MM I think it's obvious I think MM is scummier than Apoth, but I'm fine with lynching Apoth too as I've stated a lot of times.

All you've said up to this point about MM is that she's obviously got to be SC's scumpartner, and yes you've stated lots of times you'd be willing to lynch Apoth, but thats literally

all

you've said about him.

Are you saying that agreeing with cases is a scumtell?

I wouldn't call SC the easy lynch, its actually proving difficult to convince enough people to vote for him.

Hey, Cephrir, you're theoretically convinced enough that SC is scum to be voting me because I'm supposed to be his scumbuddy. Shouldn't you be helping lynch him before you try to lead a lynch based on positively knowing his alignment?

I've said quite a few times now that that's not my reason for voting MM/you. It's just a comment I made based on my belief that both of you are scum, it has nothing to do with links between the two of you. Well, there are some links, but that was not a huge factor.

That said, SC is a good lynch today as well. I'd like to know tomorrow why you think I'm scum, OGML, but I'll go with it. SC's more likely scum IMO than Apoth, and lynching you doesn't seem like it's going to happen. I still think you and SC are both scum. Let's face it, that would be a pretty good bus right now.

But it's not like the scum would ever kill a hypothetically town SC anyway.

Unvote, Vote SC

With all the parading around declaring SC obvscum after the doc claim you could hardly get away with NOT bussing him here, but I like how you try to paint my entry as a brilliant bus strategy.

Now, go go Cephrir wagon.

Wel that's probably what it was.

So judging by the fact that others are voting me, I take it quoting a whole bunch of posts by someone and then putting fake scummy motives behind them constitutes a case now. It looks to me like OGML came into this game knowing he was a likely target for the following day and decided to find someone to push ridiculously hard in order to avoid his own lynch. I don't recall you always being this overconfident in your suspects in other games I've played/modded that involved you and I think you know that you need that element to get someone other than yourself lynched today. That way when I turn up town you can make it out as though I was so scummy that I deserved to be lynched anyway... I can see it now.

[Cephrir]

Please refer to my play in your own modded game, Mafia 76, in particular the wall-o-text style attacks wherein I nitpick quotes and assign motives to the player in question in a way very, very similar to what I've done here with you. I've played like this for a long time, and seeing as it was a game you were modding so you knew the entire time that I was town, I would think you would remember that instead of trying to make the very manner in which I've attacked you seem scummy.

Yeah, but even then you didn't seem as sure as you are now, with one exception (Serous).

And why do you assume that qwints does not? It looks like when you do it, it's helpful because you have a reason; when someone does it to you, it's unhelpful. That's roughly what you've said. Yes?

If he can give me a good reason then I'll be OK with it.

Ceph, what do you think are the strongest reasons to believe Apoth is scum?

I really don't think he is anymore.

[Cephrir]

What changed to cause your opinion of Apothecary to change? As far as I can tell, you were happily willing to see Apoth lynched yesterday, while at the same time insisting that you were 100% sure SC was scum. Now SC is dead and confirmed to be scum, and you suddenly back off of Apoth altogether?

Well, I doubt all 3 of my suspects were actually scum, and I suspect you (more because of MM than you) more than Apoth. Besides, his giving-up thing strikes me as genuine now. I suppose it's still a possibility that he's scum, but I doubt it.

Wow, L-1 already. Unfortunately, I'm a townie.

[Cephrir]

happy scumday cephrir.

Why'd you push the ogml case so hard if you didn't find his actions suspicious? MM's only crime was lurking.

I beg to differ. MM was significantly scummier than your average lurker.

It seems that we're pushing the Cephrir case along very quickly. Shouldn't we give him alittle more time to try and defend himself.

I'd agree, but I've done pretty much everything I can.

[Cephrir]

If you've read this thread then you saw a case against MM.

[Cephrir]

Why did you wait so long to place a vote?

I honestly don't know.

And why did you park your vote on the MM-nonwagon? I know you said you were willing to go with the Apoth-wagon, but you didn't really put your money where you mouth is.

Because of this.

It takes four votes to lynch at deadline, so anyone who would actually prefer MM being lynched and isn't currently voting Apoth should feel free to vote her. For example, Cephrir.

[Cephrir]

Colour me skeptical, but when someone feels the need to say, "honestly," in response to a perfectly reasonable and legitimate question, I tend to suspect that they are lying.

Good for you.

So, you, an IC, refrained from voting for the player you purportedly believed to be most scummy until someone else prompted you to do so long after the time for you to cast your vote arose? That strikes me as very odd, indeed.

Yep.

Apologies if I can't be motivated to try very hard with my lynch blatantly imminent.

[Cephrir]

Well, let's see.

Qwints could be scum. The only possible explanations for Ythill's death are him being scum or the scum trying to frame him.

We haven't seen enough from Jazzmyn to make a judgement, and Zeppo was pretty lurky.

I had thought Macavity was very obvious town but now I'm wondering if he knows I'll be town, seeing as everyone else seems to think I'm horrifically scummy.

Maybe I'm being OMGUSy with OGML, but MM was scummy and his case on me basically uses the premise that I'm scum in order to prove itself. It's quite annoying.

[Cephrir]

At this point, I get the feeling that whatever I do with respect to Ceph could be seen as scummy. If I stay off of his wagon and he flips scum, it's protecting a buddy. If I stay off and he flips town, it's because I knew. If I jump on and he's scum, it's a late bus. If I jump on and he's town, it's finishing off a mislynch.

Fair enough.

[Cephrir]

Yes.

[Cephrir]

When is a better time to be motivated, Ceph?

When I'm not about to be lynched no matter what I say?

[Cephrir]

Unvote

I guess. But please don't give OGML a free pass to cruise through the game.

[Cephrir]

Cephrir

1) Voted w/o reason to get a reaction

And this is scummy how?

2) Pulled an about face on Primate

I don't recall ever thinking he was scum. Obnoxious but never lynchworthy.

3) Repeatedly says he has already given reasons w/o elaboration

so sick of this.

See his post that before the SC claim

That SC wagon looks better every minute. Actually,

Vote: SC

. His most recent few posts have really sealed it for me, and now he's backing off Ythill which seems to me like a total cop-out to the accusation of his rapidly changing suspicions (which, incidentally, is not a bad tell IMO). Note that this is a L-1 vote.

He's finally willing to do some work when it will succeed in confirming him town

How on earth would that confirm me town?

See also his post asking permission to hammer Apoth:

I went away this weekend and nothing happened. Yay, I guess.

Is that L-1? I'm willing to hammer, I'm done with both Apoth and this day.

Maybe a null tell, but it strikes me as a little scummy to not give reasons for an Apoth lynch.

I believe I had previously. Making sure it's OK to hammer is not a tell, I always do it.

His refusal to defend and unvote of OGML are further evidence for me.

I'm trying to defend, at least a little. But I think it's pretty damn obvious I'm going to be lynched today.

So basically that's just another load of "Ceph is scum so here's what he's been doing and his motives" as opposed to "here's why Ceph is scum".

I'm also pretty sure I have far too many town reads at this point.

Exactly... Hence my difficulty coming up with any suspects.

[Cephrir]

Yeah, pressure so he'd drop the PR.

[Cephrir]

Still here.

[Cephrir]

Well, I'd try to help point out scum before I go but I really can't figure out where they're hiding. qwints is currently my top pick both because of his bizarre behavior on my wagon and because Ythill's Atlas case carries a lot more weight IMO now that Ythill's dead and town. And like I said before, make sure you guys don't let OGML slip under the radar just because he lynched SC yesterday.

Vote: qwints

and good luck town, I'm obviously dead within... eh, 3 posts or so.

[Cephrir]

Now you're saying that ythill's death proves that he was correct about atlas.

I didn't say it proved anything. I just find it a bit more believable.

Elmo, you keep saying I'm not being helpful... what can I do that I haven't?

[Cephrir]

One thing I will complain about is his lack of defense now.

I did try to defend myself from OGML at first, but it seems pretty hopeless as even a few players who aren't voting me have declared an intent to. I would think that the general lack of hesitation on my wagon would make a few players realize what (I assume) is going on here. If a mafiate was getting lynched today, their partner if they have one would probably be defending them to the max realizing that they could get screwed. Anyway, since both you and Corv seem to want a defense against Corv.

He then FoS' and votes for SC... and basically never votes or FoS' *anyone* else for the rest of the time (at least that I can see except for MM when he is *asked to place his vote*). He unvotes after SC's claim but doesn't vote Apoth (or FoS apoth or do that much in the beginning) but then he comes out with MM (OGML now) as being SC's scumbuddy.

Not voting much isn't a scumtell? My vote typically moves around a lot at first then sticks in one place, be it a player or no one, for most of any given day until I see something I can really get behind or make a case of my own... isn't that how most people do it?

That... is probably the single most 'darning evidence'. SC as scum claims doc in attempt to kill a real doc (if we have one), survives another round (but he will be lynched eventually before end of game), Ceph gets on SC's wagon to look townie (Ceph has voted or FoS SC the entire game practically)

This is exactly like OGML's case. The motivation you assign to my SC vote is that I'm trying to look townie, but at the point at which I voted SC, that wagon wasn't really moving yet. I think I was one of the more pivotal votes there that allowed the shift, and I hate to bring up meta, but I've never bussed anyone (the only exception being on one occasion when I realized my scumbuddy had been investigated guilty). I had figured SC was scum all day, and when OGML offered a chance to get rid of him I was all for it.

*AND* Ceph stays off Apoth so that when town lynches town, the odds of there being "no scum" on the wagon at all is slim and by setting MM (OGML) as SC's scumbuddy when SC does flip scum, MM (OGML) may be lynched next as the fall guy and thus the end game is 'do-able' since SC's scum lynch would cost town at least 3 players so scum team can still 'eek' out a win.

I just get tired of saying this. All the cases I've seen against me today have decided that I'm scum before the case is actually made. Yes, it's possible that I'm scum and my motivation is as you've interpreted it. But there's also the possibility that I just wasn't sure about Apoth and believed MM was scum.

I guess if Ceph had ever addressed more why MM/OGML was scummy, then I would be less certain but... MM being replaced by OGML threw out the old plan of 'pinning the guilt on the newbie MM' who would have been ineffective at defending himself from being a scumbuddy lynch.

Or alternatively, OGML entered the game and began playing in a pretty protown manner, and it took me a while to forgive the role for its previous incarnation.

Ceph 'backtracking' from OGML as scum

See above, and also I was probably being OMGUSy. I can't help it sometimes >.<

and not really being able to say why MM/OGML was scum/scummy and why they were buddies... makes me believe it is a scum ploy and that Ceph is scum (plus Ceph-SC interaction with each other, and comments when I made my illogical leap from Primate to SC being scum).

Well as to my pairing him up with SC, that was just an overdramatic statement made because I believed both were scum, not because of any connections between the two. If you really want me to go post why I thought MM was scummy then I will do that; I thought it was glaringly obvious.

Ceph also had ample time to defend himself and this position but he hasn't, even when I unvoted and he could have come out and said many things to try to convince me and such...

I don't know why no one can find my initial defense from OGML. It's there, people. I don't know why anyone blames me for ceasing to try after I was on L-1 for about forever with multiple players expressing a desire to hammer me.

instead, I just re-read, re-think and find that I do see OGML's point of Ceph trying to pawn MM off as scumbuddy, etc. and that, in addition to other points, brings me back to...

This says absolutely nothing. Neither you nor OGML, nor anyone, has invalidated my initial defense; OGML basically just steamrolled over it because he'd already decided I was scum. You yourself used the words "tunnel vision"; it's quite applicable both to your case and OGML's.

[Cephrir]

Possible LA due to screwed-up computer.

[Cephrir]

The game's not going to end.

[Cephrir]

Why isn't Cephrir dead yet?

He must be getting sick of checking a game in which he knows he's going to be lynched.

[Cephrir]

Are you serious? I've been as helpful as I can be. I don't know how I could help more than I have or why you keep insisting that I haven't.

but then you could still be doing something about it! Make a read, bring out a case, heck even a "keep an eye on this guy after I am gone" type thing (which you did say for OGML) but anything else at all?

I'm also voting for qwints. He hasn't done enough that a case on him would even be worth the time and Ythill already did Atlas quite profusely.

Also, I don't selfhammer as town. I don't as scum either unless there's a really good reason. Although the amount of lynched that I am right now would qualify.

Llama, I don't think there's any reason for you to threaten to end the day. We've got time, why not use it.