Mini 698 - Georgetown Mafia - Game over

[StrangerCoug]

Unless something surprising happens in the next 12 pages of reading I'm afraid the current leading wagon on apothecary is just gonna be your standard lurkerwagon, which at this point feels like its going to be full of fail.

The wagon on Apothecary is not a lurker wagon. He's also acted very suspicious after my claim. He's misrepresented my stance on claiming and he's non-committal.

[Huntress]

Vote Count

Apothecary 3 - (StrangerCoug, MacavityLock, Corvuus)
OhGodMyLife 2 - (Elmo, Cephrir)
Qwints 1 - (Ythill)
StrangerCoug 3 - (OhGodMyLife, Qwints, LLamaFluff)

Not voting 2 - (Apothecary, Jazzmyn)

With eleven players alive, it takes six votes to lynch, or four at deadline.

Deadline is 18th December 10 pm GMT. (In 28 and a half hours time.)

[Ythill]

Unless something surprising happens in the next 12 pages of reading I'm afraid the current leading wagon on apothecary is just gonna be your standard lurkerwagon, which at this point feels like its going to be full of fail.

The wagon on Apothecary is not a lurker wagon. He's also acted very suspicious after my claim. He's misrepresented my stance on claiming and he's non-committal.

QFT. See #558 for a summary of my own points against Rx. Also, see #549 for SC's sum-up of his own (and others?) reasons for voting Rx.

Anyway... I'm disappointed that, even after my second attack, not a soul is willing to act on the evidence against Atlas/qwints. Now that we see how quickly he's agreed to lynch the claimed doc, it should be even more obvious that he's scum.

But it looks like we're being forced into a decision between SC and Rx for the lynch, so I might as well participate. Rx is more likley than SC to be scum, and he's the safer mislynch if both are town.

For those of you voting SC, unless you are n00bs you must surely understand that there are ways of proving or disproving SC's claim before LYLO. Lynching him presents an unacceptable risk so long as there are other alternatives, and it gains us nothing we can't get later, in a safer way. If he's the doc, we either effectively take away the scum kill by not lynching SC (b/c they will target him) or we force them to play WIFOM in keeping our doc alive. That's a win-win for town.

Unvote; vote: apothecary.

I'd still

much

rather hang qwints, so if enough of you decide to agree with me at the last minute, keep in mind that you will have my vote.

[Cephrir]

I wouldn't call SC the easy lynch, its actually proving difficult to convince enough people to vote for him.

Hey, Cephrir, you're theoretically convinced enough that SC is scum to be voting me because I'm supposed to be his scumbuddy. Shouldn't you be helping lynch him before you try to lead a lynch based on positively knowing his alignment?

I've said quite a few times now that that's not my reason for voting MM/you. It's just a comment I made based on my belief that both of you are scum, it has nothing to do with links between the two of you. Well, there are some links, but that was not a huge factor.

That said, SC is a good lynch today as well. I'd like to know tomorrow why you think I'm scum, OGML, but I'll go with it. SC's more likely scum IMO than Apoth, and lynching you doesn't seem like it's going to happen. I still think you and SC are both scum. Let's face it, that would be a pretty good bus right now.

But it's not like the scum would ever kill a hypothetically town SC anyway.

Unvote, Vote SC

[qwints]

Ythill, you don't seem to be consistent. I thought you said that my "slips" implying that I "knew" apoth was why you thought I was scum. Doesn't this mean that if you think I'm scum, you think apoth is town?

On the SC lynch, I've thought SC was scummy since I've replaced in. Given the actions of others, I am now fairly certain of that fact. I will note that we need at least four votes to lynch at deadline and that a tie means no lynch. Those not voting (apoth and jazz) need to justify why they think we should no lynch if they want to not vote. I also want to hear from Elmo on if he's sticking with OGML at this point.

[Ythill]

Tied at deadline = no lynch, correct? Beware the deadlock.

There is at least one townie on the SC wagon. That person is making a huge mistake. Whoever you are, please come to your senses. If you doubt my argument, explain why and lets talk about it.

But it's not like the scum would ever kill a hypothetically town SC anyway.

This is a good thing. Doc claims can be confirmed. By not lynching SC we guarentee an advantage for town, no matter what SC's alignment is. Before LYLO we can know

for sure

what his alignment is, and act accordingly, or force the scum to use a NK to regain neutral ground.

I've dealt with a doc-fake claim and an actual doc claim from a player who seemed scummy. Waiting is the best course of action for the town.

[Ythill]

Ythill, you don't seem to be consistent. I thought you said that my "slips" implying that I "knew" apoth was why you thought I was scum. Doesn't this mean that if you think I'm scum, you think apoth is town?

Yes, but I could be wrong. It doesn't seem like lynching you will happen, so I am only able to take the most town-friendly of the options open. Of the choices, Rx has the better chance of being scum and the least risk if both are town. I've already explained this.

If you are scum, there's a pretty decent chance that both SC and Rx are town.

I will note that we need at least four votes to lynch at deadline and that a tie means no lynch. Those not voting (apoth and jazz) need to justify why they think we should no lynch if they want to not vote.

A subtle push of the SC wagon, since Rx will obviously not vote himself.

I suggest a different course... as deadline nears, those voting for a tie need to justify why they are willing to accept a no-lynch over the front-runner for which they are not voting. Since Rx is another major suspect of many SC wagon-jumpers, including yourself, the answers should be entertaining.

[Elmo]

I am around and will move my vote sometime soon. In fact,

unvote, vote StrangerCoug

.

I'm just continually depressed by the way scum always get away with fakeclaiming day 1. This may not be the optimal vote, but I feel entitled to a little irrationality now and again. And it'll feel a hell of a lot better to get a scum lynch then I'll feel annoyed if we lynch the doc, when they played like that.

[Elmo]

p.s. That is lynch - 1.

Unofficial vote count:
Apothecary 4 - (StrangerCoug, MacavityLock, Corvuus, Ythill)
StrangerCoug 5 - (OhGodMyLife, Qwints, LLamaFluff, Cephrir, Elmo)

Not voting 2 - (Apothecary, Jazzmyn)
4 at deadline, 6 before.

[Corvuus]

my conference just ended and I will be flying back.

I already stated how I dislike SC and want him to die "at some point". I dislike his doc claim and it's laziness and such but I still think it comes down to this:

If we totally disbelieve his claim and all 'power role fake claimers' are liars, and he is scum, then we lynch him.

If he is town fakeclaiming or doc, he will die 'eventually' by town or mafia killing him at some point on or right before lylo.

So.... i could give analysis about which is 'best in town interest' and 'maximized' efficiency and such and I probably would wait on lynching SC until later (lylo-ish) but.... I find I agree with Elmo over ythill right now.

I do believe SC is scum hiding behind a fake claim. I do believe lynching him and "verifying" his scumminess would help for scumhunting and looking at scumbuddies. I dislike Apoth's defense and comments and such but.... I think SC is more scummy and if SC turns up scum I would be less inclined to think Apoth is his scumbuddy (or at least I would need to be convinced by more) and in that case, we would lynch correctly and avoid mislynch.

So.... I agree with lynching SC.

I would like at least another post from SC before he is hammered but before deadline I am willing to choose and hammer SC over Apoth.

unvote

Corvuus

[Jazzmyn]

At long last,

Part 4

Mitey:

I’m not sure what to make of MiteyMouse. While it’s true that her vote against Macavity looked like an omgus vote, she did say that her vote was because she had read somewhere that the third vote on a person was a scum vote. It’s an extremely silly reason to vote for someone, certainly, but she did say that was the reason for her vote before she voted, which tends to indicate naivete rather than scumminess. More strange to me is MM’s focus on Ceph to the exclusion of nearly everything and everyone else, for reasons that are very weak. Most of her posts are either to say that she’s been busy and will post later or to repeat the same weak claims against Ceph over and over again. She did, however, say that she read the YT-Llama WoWs and thinks that they are both townies. Then, she returned today (ETA: okay, it was ‘today’ when I started writing this) to say that all of her notes are gone and that she’ll re-read and assemble them, only to ask to be replaced shortly thereafter. So, I don’t have a very good read on her, for those reasons.

In the result, MM is a 2.5 on my scum scale at present. (ETA: I haven’t incorporated her replacement’s posts into this yet)

SCoug:

Where to begin? Early on, SC voted Corv for making a simple error about Primate not voting even though it was difficult to see Primate’s vote down in the lower right hand corner of one of his picture posts. He defended Primate and his use of pictures without words, claimed that they were fine and went after Corv for asking Primate why Primate suspected SC, without ever questioning Primate himself about why Primate thought that SC was scum. He still didn’t until defend himself against Primate’s accusations at all until he was pressed hard by Corv. His responses to Corv were not at all convincing, and finally in his post 189, he came around to realizing that yeah, he should have perhaps responded to being Primate’s accusations and yeah, maybe Corv had a point. No kidding. Also, in the midst of his post 189, he says, “I am not saying Primate has no evidence of my being scum” – what on earth? - while simultaneously doing some kind of quasi-role-dropping by saying that he “has reason to believe” that Primate’s claimed posting restriction is real. Then he backs off entirely in his next post, #239, saying that he agrees that Corv seems to be exuberant town rather than scummy.

He also voted zeppo for “rolefishing” when it seems apparent that zeppo wasn’t doing any such thing. About the Macavity/SC clash about SC answering for MiteyMouse, I didn’t think there was anything really wrong with SC answering Macavity’s post about MM’s alleged omgus vote, but I did find it odd that SC went on to elaborate on it further in his next post even after Macavity made it clear that he wanted MM to answer for herself. It looked a bit like scum-coaching by SC if MM is also scum, or buddying if MM is town.

Then, there’s his wishy washy voting – he’s all over the map, voting on what appear to be whims and then unvoting when his vote is criticized by someone else.

Then comes his doc claim. Personally, I don’t believe it, but he appears to be off limits for today in light of the claim.

Then he votes for Apothecary because Apoth said that he thinks SC is town false claiming doc to avoid being lynched (parroting Macavity while doing so, and followed closely by another vote by YT). In my very first game here, a townie false claimed as doc so I know that it happens and it is not a scum-tell to suggest that it happens. Yet, SC continues this tack, saying in later posts that “suggesting that a vanilla is fakeclaiming to shield from his or her lynch is a good way to bankrupt your credibility” and that he can’t think of any other situation other than Kokusho’s Gambit (which is not at all the same circumstances) in which a townie would claim doc. He comes back to this over and over again, saying that townies wouldn’t fake claim doc, but this is bogus because townies do, in fact, falseclaim doc to try to shield themselves from being lynched.

Some of the WoWs between Corv and SC were painful to read (especially the ones where SC messed up the quotes) and I don’t want to go through them all again at this point, but I’m pretty sure that I followed them all during my prior read-through and they left me with serious concerns about SC as a result. SC was right in his post #463 when he said that Apoth misrepresented him, though. Apoth did.

SC goes on to say in his post #476 that he’s “been driven to claim doc on day one before (Newbie 630), and I really was the doc in that game. The Mafia had a roleblocker, and they opted to block instead of kill me, but even though I ended up losing I managed to avoid getting lynched. “ Why the word, “really”? If you were the doc in this game and in that game, wouldn’t you be more likely to say, “I was driven to claim my doc role on day one in another game, as well” or something like that, rather than “I was really was the doc in that game” ? Perhaps it’s semantics, but perhaps it’s a genuine slip-up.

Then, there are those odd exchanges between SC and Apoth, in which SC tells Apoth not to be pessimistic and to fight back, hinting that Apoth is town, insinuating that he doesn’t think Apoth is scummy any more (around 550, 551) and yet, when asked to name his top two suspects, SC says in his #561 that they are Apoth and Llama, and shortly thereafter, he pretty much handwaves away all of Apoth’s explanations – even though it was SC who had encouraged him to fight back – and calls him scummy, seemingly following YT’s lead. Shortly after that, he posts to say, “Let’s get to lynching Apothecary, guys.”

Nothing about SC sits well with me, I’m afraid, and hasn’t the entire game. He gets an 8 on my scum scale at present.

Ythill

By virtue of the alphabet, this leaves YTHill. My notes on him are quite lengthy as well, and transposing them into paragraphs will take a bit of time. Since there is a deadline looming, I am going to skip the detailed post on him for now, so that I can get back into the game, add my views on the newer posts, and cast a vote before the deadline. That said, I am suspicious of Ythill, and he is probably sitting around a 5 on my scum scale at present.

Regards,
Jazz

[StrangerCoug]

Yet, SC continues this tack, saying in later posts that “suggesting that a vanilla is fakeclaiming to shield from his or her lynch is a good way to bankrupt your credibility” and that he can’t think of any other situation other than Kokusho’s Gambit (which is not at all the same circumstances) in which a townie would claim doc.

That's not true. Kokusho's Gambit is the only situation I thought of at the time where town would want to fakeclaim period, not doc specifically.

Yes, it's very possible for vanilla town to fakeclaim doc, but I thought it was stupid.

SC goes on to say in his post #476 that he’s “been driven to claim doc on day one before (Newbie 630), and I really was the doc in that game. The Mafia had a roleblocker, and they opted to block instead of kill me, but even though I ended up losing I managed to avoid getting lynched. “ Why the word, “really”? If you were the doc in this game and in that game, wouldn’t you be more likely to say, “I was driven to claim my doc role on day one in another game, as well” or something like that, rather than “I was really was the doc in that game” ? Perhaps it’s semantics, but perhaps it’s a genuine slip-up.

All I can really say is to read Newbie 630 yourself.

[Jazzmyn]

Holy cow. Look at what the last couple of pages have brought. The turn of events on the lynching block is quite staggering, but not unwelcome.

SC is highest on my suspicion list and I don't believe his claim, so I guess I should put my money where my mouth is. I understand the alternate argument that he should be spared for now because he has claimed doc, but I have to say that I also agree with dispensing with the notion that just because someone claims a power role on Day 1, they should be automatically given a pass. It's that notion that makes a fake power role claim on Day 1 such a favourite of scum, after all.

I'll wait a bit in case SC has anything more to say, but I am willing to hammer him before the deadline.

Regards,
Jazz

[OhGodMyLife]

Well, awesome. Given Corv's unvote, we don't have to worry about somebody voting Rx to tie the score and end us up with a no lynch, so SC is either majority lynched or deadline lynched today. I'd say somebody should drop the hammer. Its a matter of personal opinion, but I fucking hate deadline lynches on principle.

[StrangerCoug]

I'd say somebody should drop the hammer.

Seeing as I'm doomed, I'll do it myself.

Unvote: Apothecary
Vote: StrangerCoug

[OhGodMyLife]

I'd say somebody should drop the hammer.

Seeing as I'm doomed, I'll do it myself.

Unvote: Apothecary
Vote: StrangerCoug

Respect. Respect.

[Elmo]

THOR APPROVES OF THIS OFFERING

[Ythill]

I'd say somebody should drop the hammer.

Seeing as I'm doomed, I'll do it myself.

Unvote: Apothecary
Vote: StrangerCoug

Damn it. You'd better be scum.

[qwints]

woot! One scum down.

Apoc, it's time for you to start participating. Ythill, you've got some explaining to do. Props to OGML for the lynch.

[Ythill]

Ythill, you've got some explaining to do.

You seem pretty sure of yourself. Know something about SC's alignment that I don't?

[qwints]

He self-hammered. He's scum.

[OhGodMyLife]

Ythill's ongoing smear campaign against qwints is very nothelpful

[Corvuus]

...

I agree that I think self-hammering in this case is a sign of scum but we will find out soon anyways.

I would have rather he say or at least attempt to say more (we could know more about scumbuddies and such) but I will admit that what i was suspicious of earlier but didn't know how to put into words is that I think SC was scum and that most likely Ythill would be his scumbuddy in that case and that is what my 'sense' was telling me but I would need to re-read and show which posts and such for Primate/SC.

But I guess we will find out.

Going to be back home soon.

Corvuus

[OhGodMyLife]

Don't worry, Cephrir is also scum, thats basically a lock.

[Ythill]

He self-hammered. He's scum.

I've seen town do it too.

Ythill's ongoing smear campaign against qwints is very nothelpful...

I'm going to venture a guess that it's more helpful than your one-man campaign to hang the claimed doc. I don't know your alignment, but I hope you're scum, because I don't want someone on my team who is gifted in manipulating others while being so clueless about what's good for the town.