Invitational 10: 2005-2006. Game over! before 624

[bluesoul]

I didn't really get what I was looking for from the town when I voted CTD. Which may be telling--perhaps his scumpartners didn't see him as threatened and shrugged off my vote.

One-vote wagons have consistently failed to do anything this game so I don't think it's telling either way, personally.

[CrashTextDummie]

And for the most part, he's avoided being talked about critically today, which is no bueno.

Could you explain this, please? What have I done in order to avoid being talked about critically?

I'm not even sure what that means, really, so some clarification would be appreciated.

[Patrick]

Why is it that I'm the only one to ever vote this guy? It boggles my mind. Obviously, the sentiment is there to get something going on him, but seemingly no one wants to make the first move. Put your money where your mouths are and make it happen already.

I'm not voting him at the moment because he's not my preferred lynch. I do think he looks significantly worse for his evasiveness and sketchiness around DGB.

[bluesoul]

People who have expressed that they are suspicious of Bluesoul, or a willingness to lynch him:
Elvis_knits
DGB
Patrick
Elias (? not sure if he actually ever committed to this without checking, but that's how I remember it)

Why

is it that I'm the only one to ever vote this guy?

Because 3 of the 4 are on the DGB wagon? You don't think that's a little telling?

[Xylthixlm]

elvis_knits looks like an okay lynch. DGB doesn't yet.

[Lowell]

unvote, vote bluesol

. 982 is just weirdly nonchalant. He's faking it.

I'll join the xyl is too hilarious to be scum bandwagon. BTW, If DGB "softclaimed," that doesn't mean she's scum. It just means she wants attention. Don't think she's scum.

I'll keep an

FOS elvis

for suggesting that bad reasoning against her means she's innocent. I'd vote for blue, elvis, or even elias (he's always scum when he does nothing early) at deadline. In that order.

[MrBuddyLee]

elias (he's always scum when he does nothing early) at deadline. In that order.

This is what I was expecting to find when I researched him, but is not really what I found. Can you cite?

[MrBuddyLee]

And for the most part, he's avoided being talked about critically today, which is no bueno.

Could you explain this, please? What have I done in order to avoid being talked about critically?

I'm not even sure what that means, really, so some clarification would be appreciated.

Crappy use of the English language. Let me try again.

CTD, Sarc and bird really haven't been put through any critical analysis by other players today. If CTD dies tonight as town, we won't learn much about other players' alignment from that death. No matter who else dies tonight, we won't learn a ton about CTD by reading the dead person's opinions of CTD. We'll be limited either way by working off what CTD has said about others and not vice-versa.

This becomes more of a problem later in the game when if CTD comes up scum we'll want to see what potential scumpartners had to say about him on D1.

[MrBuddyLee]

unofficial vc with 7 to lynch:

DrippingGoofball: 5 (Elias_the_thief, Patrick, elvis_knits, MBL, bluesoul)
elvis_knits: 3 (DrippingGoofball,

Lowell

, HackerHuck, Xylthixlm)
Elias_the_thief: 2 (

bluesoul

, chamber, pablito)
bluesoul: 2 (CrashTextDummie, Lowell)
CrashTextDummie: 1 (

MrBuddyLee

)

Can I get some opinions on the pros/cons of getting a full claim from DGB right now? Meaning right now?

[CrashTextDummie]

You make it sound like this is something I actually have control over, MBL. I distinctly remember inviting HackerHuck to analyze me, and seeing as I haven't held my thoughts back in general, this is certainly not something I have encouraged.

Or is the "he's avoided" part (which implies that this is something I've worked towards) the one that constitutes crappy use of the English language?

Because 3 of the 4 are on the DGB wagon? You don't think that's a little telling?

Telling of what? I haven't put much thought into it. But since you seem to think it's telling of something, why don't you share your insight?

[Xylthixlm]

CTD is being aggressive. It's a null tell but can mask other tells.

[Elias_the_thief]

MBL, I voted for DGB because I felt like she needed some pressure and Elias didn't feel the heat from the pressure that was on him. DGB has shown reaction to pressure and I wanted to see if her reaction would be similar to the previous one. Elias still remains suspect #1 for me, but I felt I needed to go around things differently to see what goes on. And as we've seen, DGB doesn't care right now and pressure won't affect her either.

This is utter bullshit. Me and DGB responded in an almost identical manner to the pressure, the only difference being that I'm making substantial (although in most players opinions, poor) posts. DGB has posted nothing of use over the last oh, 10 pages? At best, you're applying a double standard. At worst, this is you bullshitting to push my lynch over DGB's.

DGB's softclaim does not surprise me, but I think it sucks. I can't remember off hand, but I'm not even sure if she actually did say she was a power role, but only hinted at the possibility, right? Either way, it wasn't necessarily what

she

did with it afterward that got people to suspect her less or back off her, it was what others did with it (ie: Ether) that really got others to back off her (plus DGB's death-row final confession opinion post). And because DGB really isn't answering much lately, no one feels like pressuring her heavily. Whereas those who react to some pressure have really been on the radar mostly during today. She's possibly scum, but her previous play and my faults from my meta on her make me less certain of my stance on her.

This is also bullhonkery. People dont feel like applying pressure to her heavily? Well here's a news flash: here wagon is bigger than mine right now.

Elias doesn't like that I look at language to find scum, well tough. I think language is the only tell we have here.

Thats not what I said at all. I said that its unreliable. I could go either way on whether I like it or not. Especially when you dont take the time to look into the meta of the player youre applying it to. Not all players have the same thought process, some of us just saw a phrase used in a game and picked it up independant of alignment, like me and "for the town". This method of scumhunting you use is applying a universal standard where one doesnt belong.

While some go on logistics and progressive consistency of cognition, I go on how people subconsciously decide to portray themselves through language. I get gut feelings, but I like it. I will say, however, that Elias mentioning this point makes me feel a bit easier about him though.

Oh good. Now you have the same number of specific reasons for calling me town as you do for calling me scum. Congrats.

Elias' PBPAs were meant to be boring, long lists that were extremely esoteric. It was made to help himself find scum, not to persuade others. The layout of those posts were not easy to read and were not emphatic enough to really make anyone care about what he said. And that to me shows more evidence to his lack of scumhunting. At that point he tried to protray that he was looking, but he really wasn't. He seemed like he was going through the motions. That sounds scummy.

If you claim that I made them for myself, how is that going through the motions? How can you claim I wasn't looking when I made a comment on almost every individual post?

Elias, also, I don't remember excusing you from using some awkward language initially. But whatever reasons I once had, none of it distracts from a lot of the scummy behavior lately. I think what I said earlier was "I understand where you're coming from, but it doesn't mean I see you less scummy". I really think it's the way that Elias is making the town responsible for his need to post certain things and he's been so reactive and less directive. Also "more posts and increased effort" doesn't necessarily mean you'll help us find scum. So whatever I said before Elias, there's more being added.

He says he forgot his original reasons, and calls me out for "scummy behavior" without citing anything specific. His reasoning reads to me as someone trying to go with the flow on my wagon without reading my posts in depth.

I never said I forgot my original reasons, I was saying that no matter what I once believed about you, there is more (at that point) that makes you look worse than previous scummy behavior (which was the way that you used language - specifically "for the town" and the PBPAs). You're trying to defuse my attacks on me Elias, but he's trying to paint me as deficient. I don't like it, in fact. Also, I didn't read his posts in depth because they're esoteric. They almost feel like they weren't intended for anyone else to read; they're like notes.

Lol. I'm trying to paint you as deficient? You do a pretty good job of that yourself when you admit to not even reading my posts in depth. Why does it matter that theyre like notes? How does that make me scummy? You claim that more reasons are being added BUT YOU HAVE NEVER CITED ANYTHING SPECIFIC BESIDES "FOR THE TOWN". Can you understand why that is extremely aggravating, and how it fails to actually justify a vote?

Elias on the other hand is the most insistent on his suspect. Makes me doubt him a little bit.

Why?

Votes at this point really aren't saying too much except when it's on Elias.

See earlier. My wagon is smaller at this point, and I'm not posting my analysis today either way.

At this point, I'd much rather lynch Elias than DGB.

vote: Elias_the_thief

You still have yet to provide solid reasons for why. Lets go over what you said in this post.

1. I will be more pressured by a vote than DGB.
2. DGB isnt responding so you wont vote her.
3. You feel easier about me for mentioning the language point.
4. My list were meant to help me find scum not others, yet they were going through the motions.
5. More on language being bad, my pbps are like notes, didnt read in depth.
6. Unexplained suspicion
7. See 1 and 2.

That is the entirety of your argument for my lynch. If that isnt deficient, then maybe I've just been playing this game all wrong. 3 points in there are that pressure on DGB wont work. This is dumb because DGBs wagon is bigger and because the time for pressure is over, its time to start deciding who you actually think is scum. Pressure being ineffective on DGB in no way justifies my lynch without further evidence against me. Number 4 is pure wishywashiness, and 5 talks about language being bad, and cites ONE specific example, which is "for the town". Something I say quite a lot on either side of the game. Number 3 is actually supporting me as town. So where is you case for me? You claim I'm scummy for calling your case deficient, well IT IS.

[Lowell]

elias (he's always scum when he does nothing early) at deadline. In that order.

This is what I was expecting to find when I researched him, but is not really what I found. Can you cite?

Game that just ended, fresh in my mind. 662. There was a previous game when I was scum and he worried me a lot because he was so active in trying to get discussion going. So, I'm contrasting those two, really. Like I said, third on my list.

[Elias_the_thief]

Basing a meta of "always" on two games. The one that just ended being a game in which I was SK, not mafia. Real reliable meta there lowell.

[DrippingGoofball]

unvote, vote: DGB.

I am sorely tempted to ask for a claim for several reasons:
1) If DGB is town, scum already knows she's probably telling the truth and is prepared to target her for NK for hinting at a claim. It wouldn't endanger her further.
2) If DGB is scum, she will have to pluck out a specific role to fill out her claim, and either she will overlap someone else's actual role or her chosen role will reek of an attempt to pick a unique one.
3) If she claims cop and isn't counterclaimed, it will probably end the DGB lynch speculation here and now and we get 8 days to work on a proper lynch. She probably gets a protect at night.

DGB, I'm tempted to say it'd be protown of you to claim right now. What do you think? What does everyone else think?

Hey MBL, how come you're not asaking the same of elvis??????????????????
??????????????????????????

???

???????????

[DrippingGoofball]

Also, MBL, if I were cop, I would have claimed

that.

That would be a no-brainer.

But really. I'm intrigued with your vote. At a time when both myself and elvis have 4 votes, the fourth and most recent vote on me being from elviscum herself, you decide, out of the blue, to find a reason to vote for me and put me ahead in the count.

USING A CRITERIA THAT APPLIES EQUALLY TO ELVIS.

Really I'm utterly fascinated.

But mostly I'm not as sold on your townieness as I once was.

[Xylthixlm]

My scumdar just spiked on DGB.

[MrBuddyLee]

unvote, vote: elias

I just reread all of elias's posts addressing pablito. I suggest everyone else do the same.

Each time elias addresses pablito's attacks on elias, he finds pablito's attacks sorely deficient in many, many ways. You would think this would result in elias thinking pablito is scum and making a push to get pablito lynched for scummy fake-scumhunting.

But instead, elias's posts don't really attempt to pin down pablito's alignment at all. Only once (I believe) in 7 or 8 posts addressing pablito does elias actually say pablito's misrepresentations and weak attacks are actually "scummy".

Elias doesn't seem to be curious about pablito's alignment at all.

For the most part, it looks like either weak distancing or an attempt by elias to weaken town-pablito's arguments and/or persuade town-pablito and others that elias is town.

elias, where do you fit pablito into your list of scumminess? Is he in your top three? Why have you never tried to get pablito lynched?

DGB, considering you have already essentially told people you have a role, I am asking everyone what they think about having you fully claim. If you have a role, I would prefer to have you taken off the lynch table early rather than at the last minute today. That should make sense to you.

As for your comparison of yourself to elvis, she hasn't claimed. And I don't find her terribly scummy, though her recent posts have been weak and not really scumhunty in nature.

I think what I'd like to see here is a full claim from DGB, and if it holds water, a press on elias. I don't like the idea of DGB getting away with a softclaim today when two-thirds of the town finds her scummy. She could just be buying time to refine her claim if/when power roles come up dead today/tonight. As far as I can tell, there is very little risk to town in having DGB claim, and massive benefit to us if she is scum.

[Elias_the_thief]

First, take a look at the first thing I say in 850 if you really think not calling him scum more fervently is any sort of implication. That point aside, what point is there in declaring my suspicion for him more than once? I want a DGB lynch because DGB is scummier, less useful to town (even if town) and the vote leader. Pablito is my number two suspect, behind DGB. Why am I not attempting to get a Pablito lynch? Well why attempt to start a competing wagon when I just want the day to end?

[bluesoul]

unvote, vote bluesol

. 982 is just weirdly nonchalant. He's faking it.

No way dude, Xyl's awesome. And I don't find elvis scummy. What exactly am I faking? That's a strange reason to vote someone.

[MrBuddyLee]

First, take a look at the first thing I say in 850 if you really think not calling him scum more fervently is any sort of implication.

I'm reposting your 850 here. CTD had to drag that comment out of you:

I figured that in an invitational, we could be civil and actually put my mistakes behind us and focus on what I was putting into it. Sure, past lurking can be used against me in cases if you really think its that much of a tell, but to the point of completely ignoring what I have to say? Yes. That is surprising.

Do you think "completely ignoring what [you] have to say" is scummy, or just bad form? Do you think 5 people voting you (I think that was the peak of your wagon) equates to

everyone

completely ignoring what you have to say?

I'm actually pretty unsure how to answer the first question. Normally I'd say its scummy to just place a vote without any response to the post that HAD to have caused the vote. But when 5 people do it, its sort of difficult to call them all scum. The five people voting me isnt what equates to everyone completely ignoring me. What equates to completely ignoring me is that those 5 votes from the only five people that even acknowlegded the posts. The rest quite literally ignored them or basically said "oh Elias posted big deal".

I think CTD was getting at the same thing I am--you don't seem to be looking at people's actions to see if they're scummy. You seem to be looking for holes in their arguments to defend yourself.

Historically, I have found scum (or fancy I have) by spotting players who are arguing but not scumhunting. I've found one such player in you. At least DGB seems like she's trying to find scum, though to some extent it's reactionary pap. (OMGUS vote on me when she was at L-1, and now OMGUS suspicion again when I put her at L-2.)

[Elias_the_thief]

Yeah...I look for holes in arguments. Its what I do. Did you NOT read that list of games you posted? I'm pretty sure theres at least one or two examples of me doing this, such the game with the extended argument with Vollkan. I dont see how this is really a tell for me. How can DGB possibly be looking for scum? She hasnt said anything worth a second read in 10 pages at the least. I admit I'm not really doing too much scumhunting now as I'm mainly trying to end this day with the lynch I believe to be correct (DGB) and waiting on content til tomorrow, but DGB hasnt posted anything over a sentence or two and saying that shes actually scumhunting is ridiculous.

[Elias_the_thief]

***but DGB hasnt posted anything over a sentence or two. Saying that shes actually scumhunting is ridiculous.

[Xylthixlm]

hasnt posted anything over a sentence or two. Saying that shes actually scumhunting is ridiculous.

I object.

[HackerHuck]

I'm still here and trying to follow along. My workload will clear up by Friday, so I'll have a chance to look back into some of the historical posts.

My mind is pretty foggy right now, so I've got some specific things that I feel I must research, mainly MBL's resurrection of the earlier DGB wagon and CTD's case on Bluesoul.

Welcome to the two replacements. I too have never heard of Xylthixlm, but I've never played anywhere but on the forums here. One of the shots in his avatar looks like someone else's old avatar - maybe Primate? I've played with Lowell in more than a few games.

I totally agree with Chamber here that a fast day at this point is useless. We've got until the 30th, so we just need to keep progressing.

I'm finding Elias to be overdefencive here and contrary to his sig, I do find that to be consistent with scum. What's bothering me the most about his defence is that he's not really defending his behaviour, but rather pointing his finger at DGB saying "she's doing it too, so

she

must be scum." That's a bit of a head scratcher for me. I also agree with MBL about the Pablito comments and I think they fall in line with something I posted earlier. Anyway, part of the reason my post is rambling is so that I can remind myself of what I want to look back at later this weekend.