Mini Normal 2248 | A Member Of The Arsonists | Town wins

[Not_Mafia]

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VOTE: Not_Mafia

[Not_Mafia]

Looks like I generated a lot of content tbh

[Not_Mafia]

I know so its not much of a upgrade, but its better than just saying "why" all of the time

Why?

[Not_Mafia]

UNVOTE:

One more n_m vote and I wouldn’t be surprised if he self hammered.

Why?

[Not_Mafia]

kill darby

I hate myself but

Why?

Well well well, would you look at that, whatever happened to

only asking why doesn't actually add to discussion

[Not_Mafia]

You sound pretty tilted STD. Are you, perhaps, caught scum?

[Not_Mafia]

Pan is scum

Why?

[Not_Mafia]

Who's scum?

[Not_Mafia]

I was neighbourised

[Not_Mafia]

Okay, fine, I admit it, I lied

[Not_Mafia]

Looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

[Not_Mafia]

VOTE: Gamma

[Not_Mafia]

This game was a lot more fun when I just got to troll on my gimmick alt

[Not_Mafia]

It was for me

[Not_Mafia]

Yesterday's elimination was a clusterfuck but STD and LQ both smacked of righteous town indignation so I think it's DArby and Egix96

[Not_Mafia]

N_M making an actual read? In this ecomony? It's more likely than you think.

The drama made me pay

some

attention

[Not_Mafia]

I'm the backup 2 shot detective. I don't think the role serves me any use other than to claim atp.

Engage with me how you will.

lol this claim is waffle

[Not_Mafia]

I’m VT

[Not_Mafia]

Not mafia hasn't said much which is a bummer but his read on me today is interesting because I would think I would be an easy shot for scum to argue.

What more would I have to say tbh, I’ve given my reads and the reasons for them

[Not_Mafia]

Is traitor confirmed or was that just Koba’s opinion?

[Not_Mafia]

Why does informed imply traitor?

[Not_Mafia]

The balance angle I can see, even if Darby’s fake claim were real

[Not_Mafia]

isn't that something mafia could be informed about?

i don't really know if it's been done before or not i just assumed that "you know there's a traitor in this game" could count as informed

I assume they’d be informed when they didn’t have a full faction. Scum can be informed of a million different things, I don’t get the leap to traitor. Who was the first to suggest this? It just seems like a perspective slip

[Not_Mafia]

Why do we believe Darby's role?

Can anyone show a back-up of a limited shot role in a normal game? If you want a back-up named townie, you'd put in a back-up of a role not in the game. Not this weird, back-up of a 2-shot role half measure

[Not_Mafia]

And honestly STD's traitor confusion makes me think he's town more, Traitor is implemented a lot of different ways, especially in older site meta that STD is used to so uncertainty about traitor mechanics will be the norm to him

[Not_Mafia]

I'm so sure it's Darby and Egix here, I can feel it in my bones

[Not_Mafia]

I'd prefer Darby as I see his claim as such transparent bullshit

[Not_Mafia]

Really though, has a back-up of an X-Shot role ever appeared in a normal before?

[Not_Mafia]

I think he planned to claim a back-up and rushed into the 2-shot detective claim

[Not_Mafia]

The wiki doesn't mention anything about back-ups of X-shot roles but I don't see NRG approving it. Does it inherit the shots of its predecessor? Does it have its own two shots?

The wiki says

Backup is treated as a modifier to a role, causing the role to be unusable and do nothing until another player with the same role (regardless of alignment) has died.

So we basically have a 4-shot detective in an 11p game? Split across two slots. The role just simply does not exist, it is nonsense.

[Not_Mafia]

That description of a back-up implies to me that their shots are seperate

[Not_Mafia]

viewtopic.php?p=12051786#p12051786

Here's a normal where scum claimed "2-shot compulsive commuter" and I didn't believe it but got talked out of it and we lost. I won't be making the same mistake here, unless someone can give me some precedent for a back-up of an x-shot role in a normal I'll be voting Darby in 24 hours

[Not_Mafia]

Maybe you just thought a back-up whatever would sound convincing and fucked up/got unlucky with T3's flip

[Not_Mafia]

And "My claim is so terrible it must be real" is not a good defence and I wish people would stop using it

[Not_Mafia]

Your mum is a gambit

[Not_Mafia]

There are not enough TPR for there to be 3 Group Scum I think.

[Not_Mafia]

NM, who do you think is more Scummy between Egix and myself? What is your read on StD?

I'm hard townreading StD and I have Egix as PoE scum

[Not_Mafia]

NM what beside the claim makes it darby

PoE mainly that I'm townreading you and LQ. Plus night specific is different to X-shot

[Not_Mafia]

I will compromise on Egix but I want DArby

[Not_Mafia]

I think we're all set in our reads for today. Question us do we have a majority on any one person

I would vote DArby or Egix

[Not_Mafia]

Plus night specific is different to X-shot

LOL. This is a really terrible argument.

VOTE: NM

No they are completely different, night specific is very simple and has a clear use in the balance of the set-up, the role works on those night and the back-up is there in case the role gets eliminated d1.

Back-up X-shot could be implemented multiple ways and has no standardisation anywhere that we can see. Plus if we go off the wiki definition, DArby would have his own 2 shots, essentially giving us a 4-shot detective, split across two player slots in an 11p. This is not balanced and would not be approved by the NRG for multiple reasons

[Not_Mafia]

Plus night specific is different to X-shot

LOL. This is a really terrible argument.

VOTE: NM

No they are completely different, night specific is very simple and has a clear use in the balance of the set-up, the role works on those night and the back-up is there in case the role gets eliminated d1.

Back-up X-shot could be implemented multiple ways and has no standardisation anywhere that we can see. Plus if we go off the wiki definition, DArby would have his own 2 shots, essentially giving us a 4-shot detective, split across two player slots in an 11p. This is not balanced and would not be approved by the NRG for multiple reasons

I can't believe you are doubling down on this.

In the case a 2-Shot goes down N1 it's literally the same exact thing as a night-specific. The game in question is a N1/N2 and I was a backup WITH NO QUALIFICATIONS of N1/N2. It would actually be BETTER if the role died there because then I would have gotten to use the ability every night.

You're right that there's no standardization of X-shot backup, but it's the exact same for night specific.

And irt getting 4 shots, that's actually not true because, for example, we don't know if T3 actually used any of their shots or who they were on. So you can't say it's 4 full shots because this game demonstrates that we don't actually know anything about T3's invests. And Darby clearly said in the same post they claimed that they were 2-Shot. That's exactly what I would expect in this setup if DArby's claim is legit.

But I'll

UNVOTE:

for now and give you a chance to give your own setup spec for this game. Like what do you think is realistic for PRs for this game? What are you thinking with Traitor? Or do you think it's just 2 Group Scum? Like, 2 TPRs with a backup seems very reasonable in a 2 Group Scum with a Traitor. So what setup are you seeing here?

The point is the N1/N2 Neighbouriser serves a very clear and specific purpose; to make a neighbourhood early in the game, the back-up is insurance. Neighbourhoods are of very little utility. This is not comparable to what we have here, we (allegedly) have a detective split across two player slots, with either two scum or two scum + traitor, this is STRONGER than a full detective in this set-up as even if scum manage to kill the detective early, they now have the back-up to deal with and with just two scum capable of killing plus no false positives. This is an apples and oranges comparison

At the minute I think there's just two group scum, there just being two scum explains a lot; the inability to get an elimination or clear consensus here and that I only really have an active scumread on DArby. Plus it's a good play for DArby here to claim Detective, claim a dubious role but skate by on being a PR and come in to tomorrow with a BS guilty, giving him the ability to control the 1v1.

[Not_Mafia]

VOTE: DArby

[Not_Mafia]

Plus night specific is different to X-shot

LOL. This is a really terrible argument.

VOTE: NM

No they are completely different, night specific is very simple and has a clear use in the balance of the set-up, the role works on those night and the back-up is there in case the role gets eliminated d1.

Back-up X-shot could be implemented multiple ways and has no standardisation anywhere that we can see. Plus if we go off the wiki definition, DArby would have his own 2 shots, essentially giving us a 4-shot detective, split across two player slots in an 11p. This is not balanced and would not be approved by the NRG for multiple reasons

I can't believe you are doubling down on this.

In the case a 2-Shot goes down N1 it's literally the same exact thing as a night-specific. The game in question is a N1/N2 and I was a backup WITH NO QUALIFICATIONS of N1/N2. It would actually be BETTER if the role died there because then I would have gotten to use the ability every night.

You're right that there's no standardization of X-shot backup, but it's the exact same for night specific.

And irt getting 4 shots, that's actually not true because, for example, we don't know if T3 actually used any of their shots or who they were on. So you can't say it's 4 full shots because this game demonstrates that we don't actually know anything about T3's invests. And Darby clearly said in the same post they claimed that they were 2-Shot. That's exactly what I would expect in this setup if DArby's claim is legit.

But I'll

UNVOTE:

for now and give you a chance to give your own setup spec for this game. Like what do you think is realistic for PRs for this game? What are you thinking with Traitor? Or do you think it's just 2 Group Scum? Like, 2 TPRs with a backup seems very reasonable in a 2 Group Scum with a Traitor. So what setup are you seeing here?

The point is the N1/N2 Neighbouriser serves a very clear and specific purpose; to make a neighbourhood early in the game, the back-up is insurance. Neighbourhoods are of very little utility. This is not comparable to what we have here, we (allegedly) have a detective split across two player slots, with either two scum or two scum + traitor, this is STRONGER than a full detective in this set-up as even if scum manage to kill the detective early, they now have the back-up to deal with and with just two scum capable of killing plus no false positives. This is an apples and oranges comparison

At the minute I think there's just two group scum, there just being two scum explains a lot; the inability to get an elimination or clear consensus here and that I only really have an active scumread on DArby. Plus it's a good play for DArby here to claim Detective, claim a dubious role but skate by on being a PR and come in to tomorrow with a BS guilty, giving him the ability to control the 1v1.

That means Scum have 2 PRs. Else, You are assuming Town have a low utility role and a less powerful cop that isn't guaranteed to actually get even and Inno at this point. The detective role kinda sucks. It can only get guilties and that's only if they are right about who performed the NK. But why Detective here? Why not Follower, Tracker, Watcher, heck even motion detector could arguably be better than Detective here. Why Detective here? Why 2-Shot?

Don't you think it is suicide for DArby to claim here as the last Group Scum?

You know that Detective gives guilties on anyone that has NK'd at any point in the game, not just that night, it's not like a tracker. It's very powerful in what appears to be a 2 scum set-up. And no I do not think it is suicide, why do you think it is?

[Not_Mafia]

It's really not that complex

[Not_Mafia]

"next"

[Not_Mafia]

I was town, elim DArby tomorrow, don’t believe whatever nonsense he comes out with tomorrow

[Not_Mafia]

Also: did mastina review this because this setup was VERY townsided

viewtopic.php?f=123&t=87209

Yup

[Not_Mafia]

Thanks lendun for modding and congrats town

[Not_Mafia]

According to review PT it was supposed to be a fakeclaim

[Not_Mafia]

Yeah I'm really not sure what reviewers were thinking on this tbph. I think they underestimated how powerful the back-up detective was against 2 scum