Mini #682: C9++ (Game Over!)

[wolframnhart]

is it just me or are those last three quoted names in weird writting?

[sekinj]

it's just you... they look fine to me...


not really

[SilverPhoenix]

Wrong. I asked to be confirmed. There is a big difference (between confirmed and investigate), which you will understand in due time.

I made it blatently obvious that I had a power role, and you would rather let it go to the Night without knowing if I could back up my assertions?

I just noticed this. This backs up the statement I said that masons are only

truly

confirmed to be town through cop investigation. You made people at this point believe you have a power role which could be immediately verified, which led germy to correctly surmise you were either a child (confirmed by mod) or mason (confirmed by other mason). Unfortunately, one of those options is still out of the mouth of a player, so it can't be absolute truth yet. You are right about "confirmed" being different than investigated as in this case "confirmed" is still... unconfirmed in my book.

I know Kairyuu, you said you didn't lie, but that is simply unconfirmed.

[SilverPhoenix]

is it just me or are those last three quoted names in weird writting?

Sorry to be an idiot. They are in Japanese, as Kairyuu is Japanese....or at least I think it is.

[SilverPhoenix]

is it just me or are those last three quoted names in weird writting?

Sorry to be an idiot. They are in Japanese, as Kairyuu is Japanese....or at least I think it is.

EDWOP: I'm the idiot. Especially for not saying so.

[Kairyuu]

@SP:

Yes, since you are a mason. That's only truly confirmable through a cop investigation, and I would have rathered confirm (at that point) someone who seemed suspicious. If you were a doctor, vig, or cop, then you could confirm that through night actions. People would wait for them too, like you were asking, and if nothing happened, you would get lynched, again like you said. Again, it is good that your partner confirmed it and no one has said you lied, but it isn't good enough for absolute truth.

One problem with my not claiming. I was at L-2. It was that or get lynched. As for it not being absolute truth, I agree.

One question here though. Would you consider it absolute truth if one or the other of us were NKed and flipped mason?

While that is true, there is another situation where this is required: you need one of your scum buddies to go along with the ploy. It serves as a signal, but that signal is as easy for scum to make as masons. Then again, this would require a lot of preparation (impossible in D1) or luck, but I think it is capable of good players.

There was a pregame where myko and I were allowed to speak, but it was so short (under an hour I think) that he never even had a chance to tell me if he was a miller or not.

I can't speak for everyone, and maybe it's because I replaced in, but my role PM was identical to the role description provided by the mod in the first posts. Just saying.

-Smacks self- I completely forgot about that post. Yes, my role pm is exactly the same as the mason example with mykonian in the [insert name here section].

Are you willing to say if you have a third partner? The probabilities are pretty slim, but just to confirm.

No third mason. I would have claimed M Cubed if there were.

One more question for you. Have I responded to your points in a manner that is convincing? Or do you still require more evidence?

@wolf:

is it just me or are those last three quoted names in weird writting?

I think they're Kairyuu in Japanese, which would be pretty awesome.

Fun fact: Kairyuu translated to english means 'to find the cubic root of a number.' I did not find this out until a decent amount of time after I made the name up from scratch.

[Kairyuu]

EBWOP: Yay! I was right!

And you make a fair point SC. Unless the mod confirms it (which won't happen unless I die) then there is no 100% guarentee.

[SilverPhoenix]

One question here though. Would you consider it absolute truth if one or the other of us were NKed and flipped mason?

Of course. I define absolute truth as confirmed by the mod. That doesn't mean your claim isn't truth, it just has less truthiness than absolute truth.

One more question for you. Have I responded to your points in a manner that is convincing? Or do you still require more evidence?

For now, I suppose. I'm not entirely convinced, but there isn't much I can do besides voting for you to make my point, which I don't want to do. I'm taking your claim to be true for now, with this scenario in the back of my head in the coming game days.

Kairyuu translated to english means 'to find the cubic root of a number.'

That's right. I had to look it up, but yeah, that's cool. I wish my Japanese name (Keteru) had an actual meaning.

[Kairyuu]

Of course. I define absolute truth as confirmed by the mod. That doesn't mean your claim isn't truth, it just has less truthiness than absolute truth.

I can't argue with that logic.

For now, I suppose. I'm not entirely convinced, but there isn't much I can do besides voting for you to make my point, which I don't want to do. I'm taking your claim to be true for now, with this scenario in the back of my head in the coming game days.

Perfectly reasonable.

[wolframnhart]

A general question to everyone: Do you believe the mason claim by Kairyuu and mykonian? My case may be a bit fantastic, I just want to see what other opinions about it are.

Myself I believe it, for now. At the most it is the best thing we have to go off of for the moment.

[springlullaby]

@Springlullaby:

Right, this game is starting to tire me and I think it is time to reach a lynch soon.

Hypocritical much? You have posted almost nothing for several pages, and yet you claim the game is dragging.

Quantity=/=quality.

Kairyuu, I think you are not properly apologetic for what I see as bad play -if you are genuinely town - your 'trap' or whatever you call it was certainly not well thought out and didn't cover every possible interpretation, though I do take responsibility for jumping the gun.

There's a problem with your statement. I don't think I need to apologize for what you see as bad play, because I don't see it as bad play. My 'trap' was a gambit, and assuming it was meant to cover every single interpretation is not going to work. We are dealing with people, not statistics. Human error creates anomalies, and there is nothing that can be done to stop that. My gambit was made with the tools I have at my disposal, which are not perfect. I accounted for all the possibilities I could think of, and went with it.

How would you have done it differently so that it wasn't 'bad play?'

You weren't at L-2 when you made your 'I'll be confirmed' statement which put you to L-2. It amazes me that you are pretty much agreeing with me on the fact that you didn't think of all the possibilities, then say in the same sentence that it wasn't bad play. I just don't know if you are doing this on purpose.

I certainly wouldn't have half-claimed with three votes on me.

Concerning your claim in itself, I'm perfectly ok to let it go atm because yours and mykonian's names are linked now.

Yep. We're masons, and if one of us dies tonight you will have no choice but to believe it.

Given how you have played and the possibility it leaves in my mind of you being a scum making a gambit, my sentiment now is that only a cardflip from one of you will convince me of your alignment but I do not think you are a priority today.

Although, if you are indeed town, Kairyuu, please take a deep breath and try to sounds less self-righteous, because misplaced confidence doesn't make you look good.

We have been over this already. I am extremely confident in my reads, always. No exceptions. I won't change that just because you think I sound self-righteous. Besides, a townie shouldn't care about 'looking good.' They should care about finding the scum, which I am attempting to do.

I'm not talking about your read, I'm talking about the way you've been arguing in favor of you half-claim whereas there is no question for me that it was a bad move. You not being pissed at yourself for being obliged to claim make me doubt your alignment, because I think I would be.

You mentioned question and failed case concerning me, explain and I'll answer.

You asked me questions, including "why should I not be voting you right now?" and I responded. I was expecting you to comment on that. If you don't plan to, then it affects nothing, since I have already claimed.

If you are asking why I asked you that question, it was me giving you the benefit of the doubt because at the time my read on you was very much town.

Bolded mine, contains my thoughts on Kairyuu's claim.

Now, concerning who I'm willing to lynch, I'm going to stick with Artem, because I still think the Artem vs Kairyuu thing was much ado about nothing, but I believe Artem's vote on Kairyuu was a pre-emptive and defensive OMGUS reaction to Kairyuu's mentionning the beginning of suspicion on him. But I have to say it's more gut feeling than anything else at this point.

I voted for Kair on two different occasions. Which vote are you referring to because, frankly, I'm not seeing either as "pre-emptive and defensive OMGUS"?

I'm talking about your first vote one Kairyuu: of the Kairyuu vs Artem discussion, what struck me most was the back and forth over whether or not Kairyuu FOS'd you, with you accusing him of doing, and him denying it.

Well, if you look at that the other way, what you were doing was essentially voting him because you thought he FOS'd you; and that's called OMGUS.

[Kairyuu]

Quantity=/=quality.

Exactly right, but requesting prods does not count as quality.

You weren't at L-2 when you made your 'I'll be confirmed' statement which put you to L-2. It amazes me that you are pretty much agreeing with me on the fact that you didn't think of all the possibilities, then say in the same sentence that it wasn't bad play. I just don't know if you are doing this on purpose.

I certainly wouldn't have half-claimed with three votes on me.

You have the order wrong. I was at 3 votes when I made my "I'll submit to being lynched D2 if I can't be confirmed" post. That was the post that brought me to L-2, at which point I had to half claim in order to explain my reasoning.

I did not institute my gambit until I was at L-2, and now I am confused as to what you meant by not considering all the possibilities. I thought you meant that I couldn't get the best read on the people who reacted to the gambit. Apparently you are talking about something else. Explain please.

Given how you have played and the possibility it leaves in my mind of you being a scum making a gambit, my sentiment now is that only a cardflip from one of you will convince me of your alignment but I do not think you are a priority today.

How I have played has been entirely consistant throughout. You just don't seem to like the fact that I won't apologize for not letting myself get lynched. You will probably get your wish soon enough when the scum kills me or myko, but until then you get to deal with the fact that claiming masons as scum is a stupid move because of how easily it could be confirmed.

I'm not talking about your read, I'm talking about the way you've been arguing in favor of you half-claim whereas there is no question for me that it was a bad move. You not being pissed at yourself for being obliged to claim make me doubt your alignment, because I think I would be.

You are doing exactly what Artem did at one point. You say that I played badly because I didn't act like you claim you would have. First of all, you probably can't prove that you would have been irritated at having to claim. And secondly, I don't have to conform to your standards in order to be playing properly. Besides, I'm having too much fun in this game to put myself down because one player says I've made a bad move.

I could just as easily say that you are scum because you did not react the way that I would have to my questioning. It would equate to the same thing, that is, baseless argument that holds no weight.

[Kairyuu]

EBWOP: I'm looking for the games right now CF Riot. They should be up today, but tommorow at the latest.

[iamausername]

Votecount #12!

Scheherazade (3) - Kairyuu, mykonian, Artem
sekinj (2) - CF Riot, Scheherazade
Artem (1) - springlullaby
Scigatt (1) - germy

Not Voting (5) - SilverPhoenix, Ku_F, Scigatt, wolframnhart, sekinj

7 to lynch.

CLICK HERE FOR DEADLINE CLOCK

.

[sekinj]

CF

p0 - "Forgive me for keeping the possibility open that you're lying. =] " --

I never liked the ambivilance shown by CF's first post.

p1 - "@All: Question, what is the down side to a mafioso claiming miller?"

p2 - "I didn't ask you anything. No one asked you anything. ???" --

CF brings this up again later, questioning chuck pretty heavily as to what he was answering. This even makes CF put chuck as #3 on his early LoS... I'm not sure why CF put so much emphasis on this, and why he apparently considered it scummy.

p3 - "Nightwolf and Kairyuu's arguments have me leaning towards it hurting the town more than it helps. " --

looks like he is trying to buddy up to the players that seem the most town so far

p4 - "I'm going to throw out the idea that if no one has claimed miller by the end of page 5, we don't have any.<snip>I think any miller claims after page 5 can be considered lies, with reasonable exceptions." --

I don't liek that he felt the need to have to tie this down. What was the point of this? So that if anyone claimed miller later he could point back and say it was already scummy? I don't really see the need to define/discuss/warn about what actions will be considered scummy if they occure.

p7 - I make #2 on his LOS after calling him out on not making accusations. --

seems convenient. his only case at that point is the SL joke vote.

p12 - addresses SL asks her to verbalize a statement more thoroughly --

This is the first and last time he EVER addresses SL. the only other mentions of her name are when he is talkinga bout his case on me. That makes this really seem more like coaching than actual clarification.

p14 - "I think Sekinj could be a good lynch, and I'm considering Artem after a reread, now that you're claimed mason." --

this post was made Mon Oct 13th... keep this in mind...

p15 - one example of charter as scum and one as town --

sorry, I don't buy it. I'm in a game with charter that just now ended and his behavior in this game breaks your little scenario wide open. i don't buy it one bit. over-reacting is a null-tell, and has more to do with playstyle than alignment

p16 - defends not wanting Kair to claim fully. "Wolf, Germy, who are you looking at now?" --

the last part seems like he is trying to deflect in order to get the discussion off of himself

p17 - says my thoughts/defense had no bearing on his opinion

p18 - pushes me to vote

p20 -

seems liek too much of an appeal to the town. Instead of strongly stating a defense he asks if he should point out things, and post his earlier thoughts on afat (which are practically null now anyway)

p21 - "Did a reread of Artem, and I don't really see anything suspicious there, but I was iffy about him earlier in the game so I guess now I'm neutral."

-- this was posted Oct 16th (see his post#14) Artem had made 5 posts between the time CF did his first "reread" of artem and then this his second "reread" of artem. A) what exactly in those 5 posts made artem go from being 'considered after my lynch' to 'nothing really suspicious' (maybe it was the purrr post). B) Why does CF feel that Artem needs to be reread so often?

[sekinj]

after looking at CF and seeing his interesting interction with SL, I took a brief look at SL also... but didn't see anything too glaring. just her recent shout-outs to the lurkers while not posting large amounts herself and she seems to go back and forth on germy a lot. first he's town, and then he's scummy, and now hes back to town. She has also made numerous posts with significant acusations which lack any reasoning or backing (see posts in isolation 2, 15, 20 and 21). Some of those she has followed up on, but some remain unexplained.

[germy]

Just a quick check-in...

SilverPhoenix - not nearly as lurky as alvinz95. In response to my thoughts on the Kairyuu-mykonian mason team, I think I have to believe them. I was the first to mention a scum gambit, but I simply don't see the groundwork laid for one.

Sche hasn't changed my mind at all, and Scigatt has still not posted.

*throws hands up in the air*

I'm going to have to go through a reread of most of the other players.

[CF Riot]

@Myko: I don't know if everyone's thought it this way or not but I'll clear it up now. I'm not saying afat/Zade is not scum. The only reason I was against that lynch was because Kairyuu and others were pushing it pretty strongly when I didn't see any evidence, so I though the push was scum powered. I still don't feel like what's been presented is any good, so I wouldn't vote him yet, but I'm not really against his lynch. I really liked Germy's claim at first too, but then once everyone said, "This is bad because X, Y, and Z," I thought, "Okay, it wasn't the best idea ever." For that, I didn't think afat was buddying.
----
@SP: Argumentative can describe me, sure. I don't see what's negative about argumentative though.

On voting Sekinj, I felt like all cases at that point were weak. Weaker so than mine. I took the (also weak) spat with SL into account with this vote, and the relative lack of original opinions in the game to that point. I feel like Sekinj was echoing a lot.

Not related to me but what's more truthful about someone saying "I'm town" and someone else saying "I'm the cop, and he is town" than someone saying "I'm a mason" and someone else saying "Yup and me too"? You just said something about a cop confirming someone being really confirmed, but couldn't scum fake cop just as easy as fake mason? On this note, I believe Kairyuu and Myko because SO many things would keep them from reaching endgame as scum. If both of them are alive D3 I'll start scratching my head, but I'm pretty sure I believe them for now.
----
@Kairyuu: Don't stress on those examples. I'm not worried about them for this game. You just seem very opinionated and I like arguing too.
----
Now the big one. @Sekinj:

p0: Concede. As of now, I think Germy is most likely town. If not, I think it's much more likely he is a SK than mafia because of his claim hinting at the existence of a vig. Ambivalence gone.

p1: What's wrong with this? I seriously wanted to know. No one claimed Miller, including me, so why does this post make me scum?

p2: It confused me that he answered a question that didn't exist. It made me think he was newb scum itching to get his opinions out there so he could control the situation. On the early LoS, I said it wasn't scummy, just confusing, and I wouldn't make a case out of it.

p3: Weighing in on opinions at hand. Nothing to defend really so I'll concede.

p4: Was the point not valid?

What was the point of this? So that if anyone claimed miller later he could point back and say it was already scummy?

I didn't do this, so you can't say I'm scummy because I

could have

done it.

p7: Again, I said it was weak when I pointed it out. I even told you the reason it mattered to me was related to how I found Charter as scum, and you say you've read the game where I did, so this should make sense to you.

p12: I have also never addressed: afatchic, SP(until this post), or Scigatt. Why does this make me scum? The actual quote:

Germy, germy, you're pinging my scumdar.

Can you verbalize this a little more? How, why, etc.?

Where is the coaching in that? I make no comment about the statement.

p14: When I said "I'm considering Artem after a reread," it meant that I would consider Artem as a suspect after I made a reread that had not happened yet. I did not mean that I had already done one, or that I was leaning towards Artem-scum.

I'll do a PBPA back at you to keep up with the curve of mega-posting in this game and support my case, if I can find any valid evidence. I'll admit, what I have on Sekinj is mostly a feel, and not evidence heavy, but I'm tending to believe in this game both are of (relatively) equal value. Last thought on Sekinj, you're still not voting anyone. Any other suspects?

p15: How does this make me scum?

p16: Those two had votes prior to the Kair/Myko mason-claim. After the claim, they unvoted but didn't revote. This is why I asked them.

p18: This

can

be interpreted as a push to vote, although I will state I did not mean it that way. I was asking why you weren't voting, because I think you're scum trying to vote with the crowd.

p20: This was not an appeal to the town, as it was mainly directed at Kairyuu (my main prosecutor) and whether or not you think my thoughts on afat are null is opinion. They apparently meant something to Kair, which is why they were posted. If I, for whatever reason, do things that cause me to be a suspect in this game, it's my job to explain those actions to keep myself from being lynched. If I'm lynched, I feel defeated for one, and the town loses a townie for two, so I'm obligated to do whatever I can to prove my innocence.

p21: A) and B) both explained by p14. I only did one reread of Artem, and I considered him neutral the entire time.

[mykonian]

I've looked at CF his posts. I can't find anything weird. I don't know where I got the feeling from, but his posting seems good. Bit low on information maybe.

Spring is different. I don't like her first real action against Sekinj, as Sekinj pointed out something that I think was true. This goes for a few posts. After that she thinks afat scummy,but votes artem for meta reasons. and he stays with that. she also came up with an other reason. Artem would have preemptive OMGUS voted Kairyuu. They accused each other for pages, and you come up with an OMGUS vote, even and OMGUS vote before the other person actually voted, because artem would expect Kairyuu to vote him? Everybody could see it coming that they would vote eachother. And both had pages of reasons. You don't for your vote. You were looking for reasons.

[SilverPhoenix]

Not related to me but what's more truthful about someone saying "I'm town" and someone else saying "I'm the cop, and he is town" than someone saying "I'm a mason" and someone else saying "Yup and me too"? You just said something about a cop confirming someone being really confirmed, but couldn't scum fake cop just as easy as fake mason? On this note, I believe Kairyuu and Myko because SO many things would keep them from reaching endgame as scum. If both of them are alive D3 I'll start scratching my head, but I'm pretty sure I believe them for now.

You are completely right. Then my case rests (especially now that I read that the same case was made by germy immediately after he claimed XD). However, germy's suspicion of a gambit was immediately followed by this from mykonian:

Is this the classical scummy `oh, I was wrong` post? Still you keep all the options open, and basically you say nothing.

That isn't protown at all. Mykonian is

demanding

belief, not asking for it. "You have to believe me!!!" isn't cool as it implies a kind of complete game-changing move that automatically makes him immune to suspicion. Hardly is the case. But nevertheless, we are all watching you. o.o

Now on to pressing things. I don't know why all this negative attention is being directed toward Sekinj. I'll take some quotes from the arguments to try and understand. This is going to be flow-of-consciousness...sort of.

2) Sekinj - You refused to respond to SpringLullaby's vote. I think that given the chance, scum like to ignore accusations that they believe won't gain support, rather than try to refute them and consequently draw more attention to the matter. I caught a scum in my first game this way, with a prying question over a very small issue. He refused to respond because a few people had said the question was unfair, and it turned out he was scum.

The root of the attention. In which she responded that she made a mistake (thought the vote was semi-random). She did address it, so I don't see the problem.

I think her response to germy being reintroduced as a suspect might itself be suspect. Normally, I’d see nothing wrong, but with everything else, it feels like she’s annoyed because she already knows whether germy is town or scum, which only scum or mason could know at this point… And she’s not a mason, it would seem.

This I can kind of agree with this, although the reasons aren't the same. She said she felt like that we needed to move on, as somewhat silly notions were being thrown around, like when my predecessor said that germy used way too much IIoA (the only thing he pretty much said).

Also… Did Sekinj add fuel to the Kairyuu/Artem fire? Maybe unintentionally, but Artem seems to think that Sekinj thought he appeased Kairyuu too much. Was that a weak attempt to make the row the focus of discussion? She then says that Artem is attacking Kairyuu too strongly… I find her involvement in the row irregular.

Uh, Kairyuu brought up Artem in the discussions back then, not Sekinj. (Post 106)

I know that taken individually, any of these things could be dismissed. What I think is suspect is the pattern.

A pattern of what? Scummy behavior? It would be fine if they were linked, but I don't think they are. Although at times, she seemed impatient, but Sekinj felt she said everything before, and we all know how annoying it is to bring up everything again.

I see a pattern of you misreading, misunderstanding and trying to find scum where there isn't any.

This is the bottom line. I really don't see a whole lot of substance to this.

I'm making this argument only because I was/am having trouble grasping the accusations against Sekinj. Is there something more substansive that I missed?

[SilverPhoenix]

The last quote I made was really directed at both Scheherazade and CF Riot. I feel that both of you are trying too hard to find fault in Sekinj's actions.

[Artem]

A general question to everyone: Do you believe the mason claim by Kairyuu and mykonian? My case may be a bit fantastic, I just want to see what other opinions about it are.

I think it's too far-stretched to be a scum gambit. Not only two scum would go down if one of them is caught, but also Kair-Myko scum pair would be gambling against Germy. Germy's claim included the possibility of him being a mason, so scum would be faced with a potential counter-claim. (Of course, this all assuming Germy is town, but if all three are scum, then I tip my hat right there.)

I just don't see scum taking that much risk, so I'm fairly confident that mason claims are true.

@SL:

I'm talking about your first vote one Kairyuu: of the Kairyuu vs Artem discussion, what struck me most was the back and forth over whether or not Kairyuu FOS'd you, with you accusing him of doing, and him denying it.

Well, if you look at that the other way, what you were doing was essentially voting him because you thought he FOS'd you; and that's called OMGUS.

Here are the reasons for my first vote on Kair:

I think I'm going to Vote: Kairyuu because he's contradicting himself. If you're arguing that somebody is helping scum by narrowing down the set of players that have full power roles, then you're assuming that the said person is town, but if they are town, you shouldn't be voting them.

Here are the reasons for my second vote on Kair:

This is exactly how I played when I played scum:
Unvote; Vote Kairyuu

So, to summarize, I think Kair is scum because:
-He is overly defensive;
-He is fabricating suspicion;
-He is townie-hunting;
-He is arguing semantics;

All four are scum-tells in my book and the combination of these puts Kair at the place of my primary suspect. My vote stays.

Can you please point out where I'm being pre-emptive or OMGUSy?

I have to agree with Myko. So far you are voting me because "it's more gut feeling than anything else at this point"... Are you saying that with everything that's going on in the game at this point, your strongest case (and hence your vote) is just a gut feeling?

[springlullaby]

Exactly right, but requesting prods does not count as quality.

I felt their absence was very suspicious at the time given that there was a claim on the table.

You have the order wrong. I was at 3 votes when I made my "I'll submit to being lynched D2 if I can't be confirmed" post. That was the post that brought me to L-2, at which point I had to half claim in order to explain my reasoning.

I did not institute my gambit until I was at L-2, and now I am confused as to what you meant by not considering all the possibilities. I thought you meant that I couldn't get the best read on the people who reacted to the gambit. Apparently you are talking about something else. Explain please.

My bad for being confusing, by half-claim I was referring to your 'if I can be confirmed' comment which in mind is definitively what brought you in a situation to claim in the first place, and which I definitively see as bad play because nothing warranted a statement of the sort at the time.

How I have played has been entirely consistant throughout. You just don't seem to like the fact that I won't apologize for not letting myself get lynched. You will probably get your wish soon enough when the scum kills me or myko, but until then you get to deal with the fact that claiming masons as scum is a stupid move because of how easily it could be confirmed.

I don't like the passive-aggressiveness of this and the wifom but no, I'm not saying you shouldn't have claimed, I'm saying that your apparent refusal to admit any mistep in the process which led to your claim doesn't comfort me on your alignment. So yes, until one of you is cardflipped, you get to deal with the fact that that people are going to doubt you.

You are doing exactly what Artem did at one point. You say that I played badly because I didn't act like you claim you would have. First of all, you probably can't prove that you would have been irritated at having to claim. And secondly, I don't have to conform to your standards in order to be playing properly. Besides, I'm having too much fun in this game to put myself down because one player says I've made a bad move.

I could just as easily say that you are scum because you did not react the way that I would have to my questioning. It would equate to the same thing, that is, baseless argument that holds no weight.

This touch a point which I actually find interesting and think goes beyond what I'm starting to suspect is pointless bickering. I'll address it in my next post which with deal with my suspicions of Artem

But before that, SilverPhoenix, I find your defense of sekinj interesting because if it is debatable to say that sekinj's play has been scummy, I certainly can't see anything good to say about it, which in itself is pretty scummy imo.
I also would like to know why you are singling out Shez and CF Riot for their attacks on her in particular, because I haven't been a big fan of sekinj either.

[springlullaby]

Bolded mine in above post.

[SilverPhoenix]

@springlullaby: CF Riot and Shez have just had their cases for a longer time, and they are also currently voting for her. But I can address your concerns about Sekinj as well.

Also, I'm not quite understanding the sentiment against sekinj. That's my main reason for the FOS, but I think once I've read the past couple pages in more depth again I think I will get it.

That's the reason I dove into the issue. As it stood, the situation didn't make sense to me, so I decided to back and pick apart the cases.

sekinj, I'm willing to lynch too, because her vote and rapid unvote on Kairyuu does look opportunist and the long explanation about her unvote sounds more defensive than it needed to. And her indecision is starting to grate on my nerves again.

That about sums up your reasoning for being suspicious of Sekinj, correct?
Ok, my point-of-view here, but putting someone into L-2 is simply not opportunistic

on D1

. A lynch would require a hammer by two more people in rapid succession, which is silly for the scum to even attempt. And after several people began to attack her, she had to defend herself. I see little wrong with it.

I would like Scheherazade, CF Riot, and springlullaby to bring a better case against Sekinj. For a bit of a pressure, I'll

Vote: Scheherazade

, mainly since he already has votes on him.