Mini 672 - Tranquility (Game Over)

[Lord Gurgi]

The Eighteenth Votecount - Ten alive, six to lynch

camn (3) - Stef, SpyreX, Porkens

charter (2) - melikefood, Nameless
Porkens (1) - charter
Nameless (1) - Kmd4390

Not Voting (3) - ZazieR, Rishi, camn

Every player has posted today, I'm not prodding anyone.

[charter]

##unvote, ##vote Nameless

[camn]

Well, charter.. I know it is WIFOM of the HIGHEST order...... but the quick hammer, plus his defense of it seems kind of unscummy to me. Like.. you could never do that if you KNEW the guy was innocent, because of the shiv-storm you would have to face in the morning.
But if you thought he was scum...!
Like when I hammered whats-his-name in that other game. You commented on it being quick.. and I EXPECTED to take some heat for it, but I really believed he was scum, so I did it.. But if I had been scum, and KNOWN he was town, I would have had to be more deliberate.

But I will read harder on him. I am not as convinced of his innocence as I am of KMDs.

[Stef]

To address the situation with kmd/charter..

I don't know what to think about the claim.. their only argument is the trail kmd left but i don't know if that's enough. The cult possibility on the other hand seems a little bit of a stretch but them both being scum isn't.

@Kmd: Knowing you have a PR, why haven't you been fishing more? All you did this game is go after camn. ( with the brief "going after" porkens and the gambint on me )

If your claim is true you should have done more to help the town. Instead you got caught up in little details and posted 6 pages out of the topic's 26 with alot of huey, bringing way too much attention onto yourself and camn and thus taking the pressure of the rest of the players.

@ charter: you had alot of one-line-posts till your claim and most of them have been unhelpful and/or scummy. Only

one

scummy situation would be explained by your claim and that is the one where you say you would vote porkens in a "porkens, kmd and you" scenario before you say porkens doesn't seem scummy to you.

@Camn&Charter: About my "skating along" .. i was hoping that atleast one of you two could read the fact that i was away for 3 days ( 4 days total ) either from my sig or from the post i wrote right before you agreed on me skating along.

[charter]

@Stef, I'd argue that my defending kmd is explained away as well.

ALSO, OH MY GOD, HOW HAS NO ONE NOTICED THIS. Find all posts by Porkens, start with oldest first. Go from the first one to the hammer. Tell me how many times HE EVEN MENTIONS stormer before he hammers him. If you're lazy (like me) I'll save you the trouble. ONE TIME, in his replacing in post. How can you call his hammer anything but scum quickhammering?

[Nameless]

How can you call his hammer anything but scum quickhammering?

Because given how awful Stormer's play was it could equally be called

majority

quickhammering.

Also, OH MY GOD, we too have actually read this game and are aware of the circumstances leading up to the hammer. Charter, please stop yelling. You're not as entertaining as when SpyreX does it.

[SpyreX]

@KMD

There is no third mason, and there is no cult. If Rishi was a mason with us, then yes, this would be serious fishing. It still is, it's just been proven wrong. Either way, you are fishing and need to stop.

No matter how many times you tell me to stop asking questions.. its not going to happen. Just save your breath. Considering how badly this day has been and how although logically I believe your claim for now my heart screams lynch them I am damn well making sure other avenues later don't come up. You say there is two - I want to make sure its only two and if another magically appears later then the whole lot of you die.

Notice also how I said specifically this was fishing for role information. Because it was. I dont feel bad about it.

If they can push the case to the point where people agree, then yes, they can get one lynched and one NK'd and be able to say "look at how many other people thought they were scum." Also, Porkens was pushing the idea early, before anyone else came in and said they believed the claim. He was trying to get the idea out early that charter and I are both scum.

You're assuming 4 more would be silly enough to do it. Hell, no one would love to lynch either of you more than I would - but I know its not a good idea. Strange times, strange bedfellows all that - for today I am your great defender and it should be obvious that a lynch for either of you flat out doesn't make sense. As for getting the idea out that you and charter are both scum - yea, that should be one that is floating around everyone's heads until you're confirmed. The claim doesn't change that at all.

I know what you were getting at with calling mason investigative. The point I was trying to make before the claim still stands though. You were pushing what you saw as softclaims and ended up forcing masons to claim. Now don't force another PR to claim too.

Then dont make statements that require me to push on them. I'm gonna keep on keepin' on.

No. I won't help you fish. I don't actually know anything about what you asked. I just don't want to be a part of your fishing, so I'm not going to answer that question.

"I'm not even sure what you're asking, but I am going to use this great shield of 'fishing' to not even bother with it." This is not helpful.

There are specifics to your fishing that I don't want to get into. I'll ignore anything else on this one.

You know, I'm reminded of a fairly recent SA game. Guess which one?

@Charter

Porkens already summed it up. I'm convinced you and him are scum. Nothing is going to change my mind, so all arguing with you and him is going to be town vs scum and won't go anywhere.

This is some more helpful posting. Yessir.

ALSO, OH MY GOD, HOW HAS NO ONE NOTICED THIS. Find all posts by Porkens, start with oldest first. Go from the first one to the hammer. Tell me how many times HE EVEN MENTIONS stormer before he hammers him. If you're lazy (like me) I'll save you the trouble. ONE TIME, in his replacing in post. How can you call his hammer anything but scum quickhammering?

I started to reread then hit the wall of scummy that is you two "masons" and cried a little. Porkens had, even including his initial welcome post, 13 whole posts including the hammer. So, yea.

Wanna know a hint? Know one big reason why I think Nameless and Porkens are town at this point (right or wrong it may be)? Because they've called both of you consistently on your play.

Seriously, at this point I dont know if there is going to be a winner of this game - aside from Drake that is. He escaped. He was set free.

I've narrowed my lynch choices to two for today (OHH I KNOW HOW DARE HE FALSE DICHOTOMY). In fact, I'm going to include my rationale for both and what it means if I'm right or not.

Main case: Camn
Reasons:
- See my old case.
If scum:
- Yay, we hit a scum. More rereading necessary to find full connections.
If town:
- YAY WE NEVER HAVE TO HEAR ABOUT "THE GAMBIT" AGAIN!

Secondary: MLF
Reasons:
- See my old case.
- See activity on day 2.
If town:
- Well, we do lose a PR and that is bad. However, inactivity > usefulness of a roleblocker.
If scum:
- I have every reason in the universe to get Charter lynched. That is sweet, sweet candy.

The only reason I am voting for Camn and not MLF is that I think there is more chance for Camn to be scum. The only reason I am not voting for a mason is that I want to WIN EVERY GAME I AM IN and logically they are not the proper lynch today. If I was a weaker person....if only.

Part of me thinks LG is a sadist with a crystal ball and handed out roles in such a manner to make me pull out all my hair. I'm honestly not sure what I did to him (we're both part of the Band of Brothers from Johoo's game) but I AM SORRY LG. SO SO SORRY.

Also, OH MY GOD, we too have actually read this game and are aware of the circumstances leading up to the hammer. Charter, please stop yelling. You're not as entertaining as when SpyreX does it.

<3

[camn]

i'm innocent, spy... How can I convince you?
Remember how I started that Charter Wagon? You liked it!

[Stef]

@camn: I don't believe you're innocent. And is the last row of your post a joke?

Also

Off the cuff, I sense a Stef-Zazie-Rishi lurkerscumteam. If you were scum in the middle of a town this INSANE, wouldn't you just sit back and let it boil over?

I do agree that suspicion can be brought up by lurking but do you think that this is an accurate scum tell? You aim at the less active and only defend against attacks without making a real case. Make an effort please. Also, i would love to know why you never suspected KMD and why you believe KMD and Charter's claim. The sense that there's a connection here still hasn't disappeared.

@charter:

How can you call his hammer anything but scum quickhammering?

I can. I would have done the same if i were convinced i was doing the right thing. This does not clear him and, as i said, i still don't like his hammer but it's not a good enough clue to tell us if he is scum or not imho.

Because given how awful Stormer's play was it could equally be called majority quickhammering.

QFT

Stef, I'd argue that my defending kmd is explained away as well.

maybe but it doesn't explain the bad posting on your behalf.

@SpyreX and the others

Strange times, strange bedfellows all that - for today I am your great defender and it should be obvious that a lynch for either of you flat out doesn't make sense.

Let's assume the following scenarios:
1. We decide to believe for now that KMD and Charter are really masons.
We decide to lynch some1 else.

a.If that person turns out town we get a -2 majority and end up in a lylo ( if i'm not mistaken ? ) After that night we still got no idea if KMD and Charter are actually town or scum playing us.

b.If that person turns out mafia we get a -1 minority -1 majority and we're kinda better off knowing that there's one less goon while on the other hand we still don't know what's up with KMD and Charter since they can play their card easily and have an apparently clear and innocent reason to push the wagon against scum while possibly bussing to boost their credibility and reinforce their claim. This is a dangerous scenario witch i would very much preffere to avoid because it would be anti-majority imho.

2. We decide to believe that KMD/Charter are a good lynch option and we decide to lynch let's say Charter ( it can be KMD.. chose kmd randomly )

a. Charter turns majority. Minority kills another majority player and we end up in a possible lylo where we know that KMD is obvinnocent and our list of suspects narrows down considerably and bringing some new leads for us.

b. Charter turns minority. We get -1 minority -1 majority and we have a sure bet on our next lynch getting us to stay in lead of the game.

Bottomline

The way i see it.. the best way is to lynch either Charter or KMD. This way we get the mystery out of the way and we get more clarification because the current confusion and speculating if their claims are true or not ( thing we cannot prove ) is hurting the majority.

Worst case scenario.. we end up in a lylo knowing we got one person we can trust to be majority and we don't loose any real PR since they can't do more than claim their roles. Best case scenario one of them turns scum giving is -2 scum in the game.

On the otherhand the worst case scenario when we're not lynching one of them is: We could lynch a PR we can use or a townie and we lose one more witch can be a useful PR or townie with the NK and we end up in D3 without getting any confirmation about Charter/KMD's roles and we could find ourselves in a lylo scenario.
The best scenario in this situation would be us killing one scum and loosing a townie.

The way i see it, no matter what Charter and KMD's alignment is, lynching one of them can give us better results opposed to lynching someone else and we don't really lose a PR because at the moment if they are majority then they are = to normal mafioso. In the event that they really are masons i pick charter for the lynch since i do think KMD would be able to help the majority more if he turns out mason.

Therefore:

##unvote ##Vote: Charter

I want every1's input on this and i want more activity out of MLF Rishi and Zazier!

[Rishi]

Okay. I think I'm caught up. I think there was a couple questions directed towards me before the mason claim, which aren't as relevant now. So I said I believed the claim, and I still do. First of all, I just think it's too big a gambit for the scum to give up two people. If one of them turns up scum in some way, then the other one gets auto-lynched. Typical Mini Normal setup is three scum, if there's only one scumgroup. (Only one NK last night, so we have to assume one scumgroup for now.)

As for the ridiculous theories about cults. Come on, this is a Mini Normal. I would entertain the possibility of cults in a Theme, but it seems really unlikely here, with only 12 players. I don't know if I like the idea of lynching one of them to clear the other.

Why are we all still discussing the Porkens hammer? It's a bit of a null-tell, I think. We were all thinking that stormer was scummy towards the end there (of course a newb is going to react badly to pressure). Anyway, it could have been any one of us dropping the hammer. Hammering without waiting for a claim is a little odd, but it shouldn't be one of the main points against Porkens. I also don't think that his refusal to believe the mason claim is necessarily bad. Nameless is also fairly vehement about not believing the claim, and no one is jumping on him.

As for SpyreX, you are rolefishing. I don't buy the argument that the people who "softclaimed" brought it upon themselves. You're like the guy who says, "Why are you winking at me? Is there something wrong with your eye. HEY EVERYONE! THIS GUY IS WINKING!" Then, you try to argue, "Well, you started it by winking." No, SpyreX, you are the one who started it because you won't let go. You backed Kmd into a corner and said, "Hey. Please explain your actions." You knew full well that the only way to explain his actions was to fully claim. Don't even try to say that Kmd and charter started it. If there was no pressure and people just ignored it, they wouldn't have had to claim at all. If you think that the only logical explanation to someone's questions is a claim, then don't beat around the bush. Go ahead and say, "Hey, you. Please claim. Thanks." What you're doing now is rolefishing while disguising it as something else. Which is even worse than actual rolefishing.

## Vote: SpryeX

[Kmd4390]

Yes, I think you are scum. Amongst the dramatics I reminded everyone how scummy you/Charter have been and how your claim doesn't change this. Merit

should

be given to the possibility that you and Charter are scum who planned the claim in the case of outing. That is all of importance.

I don't see where fakeclaiming mason would be a good move for scum.

Do you believe the theory itself that scum could plan a mason claim elaborate?

Well, I think it would be a dumb move. Let's take a look at it.

If scum were to fakeclaim mason:
They can probably ride through until LYLO if they play a really good game, but as soon as one dies, the other is outed as scum. They have to be very careful not to make even the slightest slip. It's very risky. I don't know. Maybe a really experienced player could get away with it, but I personally wouldn't try it. I wouldn't be able to do it. I'll tell you straight up that I'm not good enough.

If you were scum in the middle of a town this INSANE, wouldn't you just sit back and let it boil over?

No, I'd probably try to satisfy everyone. You know, say I believe the masons, but don't suspect the people who don't. Play both sides. I probably would voice suspicion on players who won't defend much or be prone to OMGUS. Maybe some lurkers. I don't think I'd be voting either. I wouldn't want connections to scumbuddies. Is someone in this game doing that?

@Kmd: Knowing you have a PR, why haven't you been fishing more? All you did this game is go after camn. ( with the brief "going after" porkens and the gambint on me )

If your claim is true you should have done more to help the town. Instead you got caught up in little details and posted 6 pages out of the topic's 26 with alot of huey, bringing way too much attention onto yourself and camn and thus taking the pressure of the rest of the players.

Do you even know what fishing is? It's when scum try to out power roles by asking questions that shouldn't be answered and then calling them out for avoiding questions until they finally get a claim. I will

not

fish.

I've done more than go after Camn. If you will read, you will see that she is one of my

three

major suspects right now. I wouldn't call going after Porkens brief at all. I strongly think that he is scum.

Little details lead to bigger issues.

I don't care if attention is on me. I've got nothing to hide. As far as pressure being off of players, I think most everyone has seen some pressure in this game. Maybe not Zazie. She should be pressured at some point although right now, I have no reason to think she is scum. Pressure is what causes scum to slip though, so we shouldn't just forget about Zazie.

ALSO, OH MY GOD, HOW HAS NO ONE NOTICED THIS. Find all posts by Porkens, start with oldest first. Go from the first one to the hammer. Tell me how many times HE EVEN MENTIONS stormer before he hammers him. If you're lazy (like me) I'll save you the trouble. ONE TIME, in his replacing in post. How can you call his hammer anything but scum quickhammering?

Maybe someone should have jumped on that at the beginning of Day 2. Not sure why though, nobody would believe it.

I see an @KMD in a post by Spy, so knowing him, I think I need a new post for that.

[Nameless]

First of all, I just think it's too big a gambit for the scum to give up two people.

WIFOM.

I don't buy the argument that the people who "softclaimed" brought it upon themselves. You're like the guy who says, "Why are you winking at me? Is there something wrong with your eye. HEY EVERYONE! THIS GUY IS WINKING!" Then, you try to argue, "Well, you started it by winking."

No, this case was more like three individual guys walked up to SpyreX and started winking, thrusting their pelvises and commenting on the weather while unnaturally emphasizing words like 'hot', 'steamy' and 'social

intercourse

', so SpyreX is as like "Why are you coming onto me? Do you think I'm gay? No I didn't just imagine that, look, that kid even caught it on his cellphone we're in a SCHOOL PLAYGROUND FOR CRYING OUT LOUD IT'S NOT APPROPRIATE" and then two of the guys admit they're hetrosexual brothers while the other does a runner out the front gate, planning to stab a concerned onlooker as he goes. Then SpyreX is arrested.

[Kmd4390]

I want to make sure its only two and if another magically appears later then the whole lot of you die.

Yes, there are only two, and we will not say there are more later.

You're assuming 4 more would be silly enough to do it.

There were some votes on charter already. He would have only had to convince 1 or 2 people to get a lynch.

"I'm not even sure what you're asking, but I am going to use this great shield of 'fishing' to not even bother with it." This is not helpful.

No, I know exactly what you were asking. Since you won't leave it alone, in the context of where the question was asked, answering with my speculation would possibly point to a PR, and I've learned in games I have played, PR speculation is bad because it can out PRs and get them NK'd. That is why I wouldn't answer it.

Phone call. finish in a little while.

[Kmd4390]

Ok, back to this game now.

Secondary: MLF
If scum:
- I have every reason in the universe to get Charter lynched. That is sweet, sweet candy.

Wait, why?

Remember how I started that Charter Wagon?

I'm not sure that you can take full credit for it, but even if Spy doesn't, I DO remember you going after my mason buddy who I know is town. Yep, good times...

a. Charter turns majority. Minority kills another majority player and we end up in a possible lylo where we know that KMD is obvinnocent and our list of suspects narrows down considerably and bringing some new leads for us.

If you lynch charter, I will be NK'd. We won't have the confirmed innocent. We are just down two innocents.

Okay. I think I'm caught up. I think there was a couple questions directed towards me before the mason claim, which aren't as relevant now. So I said I believed the claim, and I still do. First of all, I just think

it's too big a gambit for the scum to give up two people. If one of them turns up scum in some way, then the other one gets auto-lynched.

Typical Mini Normal setup is three scum, if there's only one scumgroup. (Only one NK last night, so we have to assume one scumgroup for now.)

This right here. This is why it would be a terrible play for scum. Unless they played it perfectly, it's almost an auto-loss.

Nameless is also fairly vehement about not believing the claim, and no one is jumping on him.

I am

voting

Nameless mostly

because

of his reaction to the claim. They are doing the same thing in different ways. Porkens changed his mind after it was clear that charter wasn't going to be lynched. This looks like trying to satisfy the town. Nameless is keeping with it. He is still looking for a mason lynch. They both look scummy right now.

As for SpyreX, you are rolefishing. I don't buy the argument that the people who "softclaimed" brought it upon themselves. You're like the guy who says, "Why are you winking at me? Is there something wrong with your eye. HEY EVERYONE! THIS GUY IS WINKING!" Then, you try to argue, "Well, you started it by winking." No, SpyreX, you are the one who started it because you won't let go. You backed Kmd into a corner and said, "Hey. Please explain your actions." You knew full well that the only way to explain his actions was to fully claim. Don't even try to say that Kmd and charter started it. If there was no pressure and people just ignored it, they wouldn't have had to claim at all. If you think that the only logical explanation to someone's questions is a claim, then don't beat around the bush. Go ahead and say, "Hey, you. Please claim. Thanks." What you're doing now is rolefishing while disguising it as something else. Which is even worse than actual rolefishing.

More good posting. The thing that is interesting about it though, is that he is so blatantly obvious about fishing and is still doing it after I have said he is fishing. I don't understand why he is still doing it. I feel like he is going to out a strong PR because of it, and everyone is going to just ignore it, or even lynch the PR.

First of all, I just think it's too big a gambit for the scum to give up two people.

WIFOM.

The word WIFOM doesn't discount an argument. It would be a stupid play to make.

[charter]

Stef's last post is filled with such horrible logic it is painful to read. Kmd pointed out some of it already. Here's some more.

@charter:

How can you call his hammer anything but scum quickhammering?

I can. I would have done the same if i were convinced i was doing the right thing. This does not clear him and, as i said, i still don't like his hammer but it's not a good enough clue to tell us if he is scum or not imho.

What? How can you "would have done the same" and "still don't like his hammer"? Besides not making any sense, I note your defending Porkens when there should be ABSOLUTELY no reason to. He certainly hasn't done anything pro town this game.

1. We decide to believe for now that KMD and Charter are really masons.
We decide to lynch some1 else.

a.If that person turns out town we get a -2 majority and end up in a lylo ( if i'm not mistaken ? ) After that night we still got no idea if KMD and Charter are actually town or scum playing us.

You assume one of us isn't NK'ed, which I honestly can't see any possible way that doesnt happen.

b.If that person turns out mafia we get a -1 minority -1 majority and we're kinda better off knowing that there's one less goon while on the other hand we still don't know what's up with KMD and Charter since they can play their card easily and have an apparently clear and innocent reason to push the wagon against scum while possibly bussing to boost their credibility and reinforce their claim. This is a dangerous scenario witch i would very much preffere to avoid because it would be anti-majority imho.

How would us lynching mafia today clear us in any way?

2. We decide to believe that KMD/Charter are a good lynch option and we decide to lynch let's say Charter ( it can be KMD.. chose kmd randomly )

a. Charter turns majority. Minority kills another majority player and we end up in a possible lylo where we know that KMD is obvinnocent and our list of suspects narrows down considerably and bringing some new leads for us.

You won't have a confirmed innocent tomorrow. It's not going to happen.

Bottomline

The way i see it.. the best way is to lynch either Charter or KMD. This way we get the mystery out of the way and we get more clarification because the current confusion and speculating if their claims are true or not ( thing we cannot prove ) is hurting the majority.

No. Wrong.

Worst case scenario.. we end up in a lylo knowing we got one person we can trust to be majority and we don't loose any real PR since they can't do more than claim their roles. Best case scenario one of them turns scum giving is -2 scum in the game.

Your best case scenario is wrong, and your worst case scenario is wrong.

On the otherhand the worst case scenario when we're not lynching one of them is: We could lynch a PR we can use or a townie and we lose one more witch can be a useful PR or townie with the NK and we end up in D3 without getting any confirmation about Charter/KMD's roles and we could find ourselves in a lylo scenario.

IF NO ONE QUICKHAMMERS, YOU DONT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT LYNCHING A POWER ROLE. IS THIS NOT OBVIOUS? Just make sure porkens is already voting for them.

[Stef]

Stef's last post is filled with such horrible logic it is painful to read.

Really?

What? How can you "would have done the same" and "still don't like his hammer"? Besides not making any sense, I note your defending Porkens

i would have done the same

if i were convinced i was doing the right thing.

Kinda convenient to take things out of context.

You assume one of us isn't NK'ed, which I honestly can't see any possible way that doesnt happen.

Why would the minority HAVE to NK one of you two? How are you a threat to the minority more than the rest of us? You have no special ability except the fact that you can talk at night. That's it! I don't think it's a sure thing the minority would kill one of you two if the other was lynched. Why are you so sure? Why is it impossible?

How would us lynching mafia today clear us in any way?

Lynching mafioso today wouldn't. Lynching one of you guys would since if one of you turns mafioso than the other is mafioso as well and your claim is true.

You won't have a confirmed innocent tomorrow. It's not going to happen.

Ehm.. care to elaborate? Why is that exactly?

No. Wrong...Your best case scenario is wrong, and your worst case scenario is wrong.

ok! Maybe bring reasons ? Cause till then my arguments and my scenarios are pretty much valid.

All i see from you in your post is you going on the defensive with no real arguments, just attacking my case without backing up and explaining yourself. That makes your attack = 0 concerning dismounting my case but it does make +1 as far as the suspicion on you. Crumbling under pressure much?

[Kmd4390]

Why would the minority HAVE to NK one of you two? How are you a threat to the minority more than the rest of us? You have no special ability except the fact that you can talk at night. That's it! I don't think it's a sure thing the minority would kill one of you two if the other was lynched. Why are you so sure? Why is it impossible?

If one of us is lynched, the other is confirmed town because we are confirmed to each other and townies have no reason to lie. The scum will NK us if we are confirmed because keeping us around narrows lynch options. The odds of finding scum with confirmed innocents are much better than the scum would like.

[Stef]

That's fair enough. Didn't think of that. That doesn't make my case null tho.

[Kmd4390]

If you really think we are both scum, then no, your case isn't null. If you want to sacrafice a mason in order to prove another, then yes, your case is null at best, scummy at worst.

[charter]

But now you see where I'm coming from with practically all my points, which does weaken your case substantially.

[Stef]

I'd still like to hear more from the others on this matter.

[Stef]

@MLF: in 640 you said you'll post "tomorrow". Tomorrow is.. well.. here. I want your input on.. well.. everything.

What do you think about the claim and why?
What are your top suspects and why?
Who do you think to be most likely to be a member of the majority and why?
Any new analysis on anything new would be helpful.

[Stef]

@ KMD

I am voting Nameless mostly because of his reaction to the claim

I'm not sure of the claim either.. does that make me scum and up for your vote since you voted nameless mostly because of the same thing? Do you really think it's scumtell?

If you really think we are both scum, then no, your case isn't null.

I think there's a chance you are both scum and that's enough. I'm not going to blindly accept the fact that you're majority just because you claimed to be and maybe cleverly left a breadcrum trail to back your claim up. It would be very smart if you are actually scum and it would also be foolish of us to just believe you.

If you want to sacrafice a mason in order to prove another, then yes, your case is null

I was ok with the idea while i wasn't considering the second mason being a defNK. I still don't consider it to be without a doubt the way the minority would act since either letting him live or killing him narrows the list of suspects anyway. It's the natural course of the game. The only bad part is that it would mean the majority possibly not gaining as much as it's loosing. All this assuming you guys are, in fact, masons.

[Kmd4390]

I'm not sure of the claim either.. does that make me scum and up for your vote since you voted nameless mostly because of the same thing? Do you really think it's scumtell?

No. Not believing the claim isn't a scumtell. Trying to push a lynch as strongly as Nameless is on claimed masons is a scumtell. Trying to convince the town that the claim can't possibly be true, realizing the lynch isn't going to happen, and backing off like Porkens did is a scumtell. Logically considering both possibilities and asking for responses, like you are doing, is not a scumtell.

I think there's a chance you are both scum and that's enough. I'm not going to blindly accept the fact that you're majority just because you claimed to be and maybe cleverly left a breadcrum trail to back your claim up. It would be very smart if you are actually scum and it would also be foolish of us to just believe you.

It would be dumb for scum to do that. I agree though that it would be dumb to just assume we are town. Lynching one of us today will not benefit the town at all. I don't know what more to say.

[Nameless]

This right here. This is why it would be a terrible play for scum. Unless they played it perfectly, it's almost an auto-loss.

It is a very good thing for everybody involved that this is not a game of meat world mafia or somebody would have to physically restrain me at this point. First of all, WIFOM (it's a fundamentally flawed and misleading argument, so we can safely ignore that). Second of all, it clearly IS a great play for the scum as YOU'RE getting away with it after acting incredibly scummy. Third of all, trust me, if I were scum it would so incredibly easy to extend this general mess a little longer and force Camn as the default lynch in the same way Stormer was yesterday, not NK you, then compile an epic massive case against you or Charter tomorrow. And probably claim cop for the hell of it (Kmd? Guilty! Charter? Guilty! MLF ... Let's throw him in jail anyway.)

Fourth of all, screw it, I give up. As entertaining as this day is turning out, actually trying to wade through how ridiculous everyone (except maybe Stef) is acting is clearly going to be as painful as it is unsuccessful. I'll just be sitting over here laughing 'I told you so' at the town when you win or facepalming at how logically awful your play has been on the off chance you're majority.

I suggest everyone massclaims now, that should be fun. I'm an ordinary mafioso. Let's lynch Rishi: Recent 5 day lurk + unexplained softclaim + weak attacks on SpyreX = 3rd scum. My work here is done.

## Unvote: Charter
## Vote: Rishi