Invitational 10: 2005-2006. Game over! before 624

[elvis_knits]

I just realized that DGB said she won't have access until the 11th. Therefore, my last vote does no good for now.

unvote, vote: Ether

Are you voting her mostly for lurking or what?

I do think she is sorta scummy, and have given reasons, so I don't disagree with a vote on her. But if you're just voting for lurking, I don't understand why you would pick Ether over CDB. CDB is also a scummy lurker and he has two votes on him already. We need to get closer to a lynch, not spread our votes out.

If you think Ether is better than CDB, please make a case so that 1)I see you don't have a double standard with her and CDB and 2)Other people will say "OMG yeah we should end this day already and lynch Ether."

[MrBuddyLee]

Elias seemed to be ranting more than anything. I didn't see particular reason to object to his suspicions, or I would have pointed them out. And I don't see where you get the impression that I'm unwilling to comment on him in the near future, as

I clearly state that I don't think there's enough material to judge him upon on his own.

I dislike the wagon and won't support it based on what we have, don't see what's bizarre about that.

By the time he actually started appearing on the map, I had already formed an opinion on most other players, and that certainly played a part in how I perceived the attacks made against him. I've reread his posts just now to check if I have missed something, and I stand by my point.

Based on his posts alone, I don't think there is a compelling case for him being scum.

That is not to say that I find his posts particularly pro-town.

So far he's been very selective in who and what he commented on, and

that makes him tough to place for me.

However, there's no reason for me to assume that he's done this deliberately or because of a scummy motive, it's just a result of him not being around for large parts of the game.

I'm pretty sure Elias isn't scum, so lynching him would be bad for the town.

So the little spat you had with elias where he held his breath and pouted... that made you MORE sure elias isn't scum?

You claim to have done a reread of elias on September 25th and found him "not particularly pro-town" but "not a compelling case for him being scum".

Now you are pretty sure he isn't scum. Mind-boggling. His first several posts after your reread include:

Am I dead yet?

(I'm trying out the DGB style of posting. It apparently gets you out of being lynched)

I'm sorry if I'm not willing to contribute anything if its immediately criticized, disregarded, and counted as evidence against me.

At this point I've made the decision to essentially sit this day out.

I'm coming back Day Two. I just dont see the point of throwing in my two cents today to snide remarks and disrespect.

and this:

I'm not refusing to do anything, only refusing to post the rest of my PBPs as theyre irrelevant.

CTD, Elias claims to have more Post-by-post analyses. Do you buy that? Did something in his posts since September 25th change your mind on him, or did you do yet another reread and decide he looked townish? If so, what did you spot? I personally smell a lie, and don't think elias has PBPs he's holding back on, considering:

1) if he's town, he knows he's a possible cop investigation tonight and therefore a possible nightkill. he shouldn't be holding back on info the town might find useful.
2) he's admitted that some of our criticisms of his pbpas have validity, and he's admitted that he's NOT posting more out of self-preservation.

If any other player is "pretty sure elias isn't scum" please stand up and cover CTD's back right now.

unvote, vote: CrashTextDummie

[MrBuddyLee]

For anyone checking the first post to confirm this, you won't see it:

CTD replaced bird111111111 who replaced Sarcastro.

Note elias's sole opinions of Sarc:

Sarcastro: I feel protown about him, though there isnt really much of a reason as to why.

Sarcastro had an equal lack of posting, and content in his posts. His main contribution was the question to bluesoul, which was good, but generally nothing impressive. Then Bird comes in and really doesnt post much of worth either.

So we have CTD finding elias "probably not scum" for indiscernable reasons, and we have elias finding Sarc protown for no reason.

Would two scum be so blatant in their protection of one another? I find it difficult to believe scum-CTD would moor his boat to scum-elias this past month. More likely, he'd moor to town-elias in hopes of coming up roses if elias gets bagged.

Gotta think about this, but their interaction is clearly weird.

bird on elias:

Elias_the_thief: Not liking the change about bluesoul, but other than that don't really have a read on him. Neutral, leaning scum

Sarc never mentioned elias.

[Patrick]

@CTD, we might still be talking past each other, but let me fill in a few gaps that you mentioned.

You ask about Ether. Not a huge amount has changed since I last commented on her, because she hasn't said anything since. Her posts don't feel similar to her posts in Newbie 530, a game I played with her where she was scum, and which I found useful from a meta-perspective. Some of her posts give me a protown feeling and there isn't much in her posts that gives me cause for concern; what does worry me is the lack of content or interest in the game despite being around and having plenty of time to play. For that reason I don't have a clear protown read on her, and if she's around tomorrow and still being useless it needs looking into, since her reason seems to be boredom with day 1. Nevertheless I'm leaning town and am not interested in lynching her today. Would surprise me as a scumbuddy to elias.

I believe I actually did analyse CDB and I'm not sure how much deeper you expect me to go there - we have very little from that role and he obviously needs replacing, but I've talked about what I see as the most relevant points about him, and I talked about IH when he was around. If you want to debate some specific point about him or persuade me that my interpretation is unlikely, you're more than welcome. I wouldn't be surprised if the guy is scum, and if you held a gun to my head and asked me to name a #3, it would be him. But I don't think there's a case for lynching him based on what we've got here.

You're right that I haven't mentioned chamber - he hasn't caught my attention much this game and I've found him mostly neutral. I got some mild townvibes from some of his longer posts, especially the one about Sarcastro, and quite like his elvis vote even with my change of heart. I didn't like Post 422 nor the calling elvis scummy for her failure to claim.

The reason I do mind in your case is that you eliminated everyone else from consideration in your latest analysis, which proves that there's clearly something wrong with the read you have on this game, and it doesn't seem to bother you. And it's a statement that you won't be supporting any other wagons in the near future.

I see what you're saying, but I've never really approached a day 1 with a view to solving the whole game. It would be nice, obviously, but it's not something I beat myself up about, and I don't think it's an admission that there's something wrong with my read of the game. Take it as an admission that I'm incapable of finding all the scum as things stand if you like; I'm usually ok with my performance if I solidly nail one scum in a game, even though that in itself isn't enough to win (I'm only one part of a big team afterall). I'm not sure where to go from here; I certainly didn't eliminate everybody else from consideration, but maybe that's just semantics at this point.

Just to come back on something I missed from an earlier post, maybe I came across wrongly in my argument about drawing connections on day 1. I defended it because I saw elvis as attacking people for what seems like a difference in playstyle - and I think I've proven that it is just playstyle. Drawing connections is usually only a small part of my play on day 1 if I do it at all. I used to do it considerably more.

[MrBuddyLee]

Why yes, he is ambivalent, and it's a scummy ambivalence, in my humble opinion. The impression I am getting is that he wouldn't have cared at all which wagon took of, but that he didn't think he could afford switching himself to help momentum because it was a pretty clear elvis vs. DGB situation and this move could have been perceived as a U-turn.

So you're saying that bluesoul is scum and DGB and elvis aren't? Or that both elvis and DGB are?

I noticed this on a previous read as well, and asked a similar question. CTD replied:

I find it distinctly possible that bluesoul was bussing/distancing from DGB, mostly because of the ease with which he let her slide off the radar, now that mostly everyone has lost interest in her.

This would make it a bluesoul-DGB-elvis scum trio, since you suspected that bluesoul was indifferent to which of the elvis-DGB wagons took off. Likelihood of that? If not, can you please reevaluate those three players based on that set of circumstances?

I must say I am as puzzled as he is as to why he's pretty much being run up for shameful non-participation when he evidently put that phase behind him.

That's not why he was being run up. He was being run up for his dreadful analyses of DGB and e_k, and the fact that he only analyzed those two because they were the "popular" choices. He found PJ/pablito scummy but never went back to analyze him at all, which was glaring. I believe people ran elias up for nonparticipation and left their votes on him for the poor quality of his posts. I assume they wanted to hear more from elias from which to base a decision, and all they got was a bluesoul PBPA and a bunch of whining.

[elvis_knits]

If any other player is "pretty sure elias isn't scum" please stand up and cover CTD's back right now.

I actually don't think elias is that scummy. I haven't seen enough to make me want to vote for him. His throwing temper tantrums was bad, but I'm not sure t was scummy. And I never bought into the original reasons why he was scummy either.

MBL, do you think Elias' temper tantrum was faked? What about it felt off to you? Or do you think it was just anti-town and unhelpful?

[elvis_knits]

That's not why he was being run up. He was being run up for his dreadful analyses of DGB and e_k, and the fact that he only analyzed those two because they were the "popular" choices. He found PJ/pablito scummy but never went back to analyze him at all, which was glaring. I believe people ran elias up for nonparticipation and left their votes on him for the poor quality of his posts. I assume they wanted to hear more from elias from which to base a decision, and all they got was a bluesoul PBPA and a bunch of whining.

This is a good distillation of your case on Elias. Can't say I saw it that way when it was happening, but I appreciate the summary of your feelings.

[CrashTextDummie]

So the little spat you had with elias where he held his breath and pouted... that made you MORE sure elias isn't scum?

Yes, actually. I believe that his childish attitude is genuine, and I believe he'd try to tone it done as scum. He's clearly proud of his achievements as scum, and I don't think he'd sully that reputation by behaving like this. I do believe he's a bad enough player to take a piss on a game like that as town though, since he clearly doesn't give a crap about his reputation as a town player.

You claim to have done a reread of elias on September 25th and found him "not particularly pro-town" but "not a compelling case for him being scum".

I still don't find him particularly pro-town. As in I find his actions decidedly anti-town. And the only compelling case I see is for him being a piss-poor player who should get the fuck out of this game still.

CTD, Elias claims to have more Post-by-post analyses. Do you buy that? Did something in his posts since September 25th change your mind on him, or did you do yet another reread and decide he looked townish? If so, what did you spot? I personally smell a lie, and don't think elias has PBPs he's holding back on

I don't think he has more pbp analyses to post. I don't even see evidence that he's ever read the game in full. I think he is full of shit and that he should get himself replaced.

I've covered the other questions above.

If any other player is "pretty sure elias isn't scum" please stand up and cover CTD's back right now.
unvote, vote: CrashTextDummie

I don't need my back covered, thank you very much.

Would two scum be so blatant in their protection of one another? I find it difficult to believe scum-CTD would moor his boat to scum-elias this past month. More likely, he'd moor to town-elias in hopes of coming up roses if elias gets bagged.

This marks the second time you're trying to paint me as scum in case someone comes up town because I've defended them. Does this look more like a pattern to Patrick?

Why yes, he is ambivalent, and it's a scummy ambivalence, in my humble opinion. The impression I am getting is that he wouldn't have cared at all which wagon took of, but that he didn't think he could afford switching himself to help momentum because it was a pretty clear elvis vs. DGB situation and this move could have been perceived as a U-turn.

So you're saying that bluesoul is scum and DGB and elvis aren't? Or that both elvis and DGB are?

I noticed this on a previous read as well, and asked a similar question. CTD replied:

I find it distinctly possible that bluesoul was bussing/distancing from DGB, mostly because of the ease with which he let her slide off the radar, now that mostly everyone has lost interest in her.

This would make it a bluesoul-DGB-elvis scum trio, since you suspected that bluesoul was indifferent to which of the elvis-DGB wagons took off. Likelihood of that? If not, can you please reevaluate those three players based on that set of circumstances?

I don't have to reevaluate, clearing up your misconception will do. I suspected that bluesoul was indifferent to which wagon took off, because neither was bad for the scum cause. Not Elvis because I didn't (and still don't) believe she's scum, and not DGB, because she's either town or scum asking to be bussed.

I must say I am as puzzled as he is as to why he's pretty much being run up for shameful non-participation when he evidently put that phase behind him.

That's not why he was being run up.

He was being run up for his dreadful analyses of DGB and e_k, and the fact that he only analyzed those two because they were the "popular" choices. He found PJ/pablito scummy but never went back to analyze him at all, which was glaring.

I believe people ran elias up for nonparticipation

and left their votes on him for the poor quality of his posts. I assume they wanted to hear more from elias from which to base a decision, and all they got was a bluesoul PBPA and a bunch of whining.

All I have to say about the underlined part is: Bwuh? Where exactly are we disagreeing?

Without reading back, I'd say I made that post at a time where it wasn't clear Elias's efforts would only last a week, judging by my choice of words. I don't see what the deal is here at all.

Actually, I don't really get your case against me period, MBL. I've been opposed to the Elias wagon ever since I got into the game, and I have now re-inforced that position. The posts in which I tried to reason with him should be a clear indication that this is not a shocking change of mind. If I hadn't thought he was likely town, I wouldn't have bothered and just voted him instead just to give him the boot.

So is that it? I'm not impressed. I could vote you right back for assuming that chamber is town, but there's a more extensive case to make on you. I'll reread you in Face to Face to make sure I'm on the right track first though.

[CrashTextDummie]

Not much I have to say to Patricks last post. I've already said that his last answer has made me feel better about him, and arguing my points further would be running in circles.

I stand by my opinion that my accusations against him were valid, but he's provided reasonable explanations that work from a pro-town perspective. So I'm gonna let him slide for now.

[MrBuddyLee]

MBL, do you think Elias' temper tantrum was faked? What about it felt off to you? Or do you think it was just anti-town and unhelpful?

I have no pure read on the tantrum. I just know he has "no motivation" to find scum right now and isn't posting more analysis out of self-preservation, which is more traditionally a scum tactic. I do think some of it was over the top, followed by more reasonable discourse, which smells a little bit like good cop/bad cop to me, LOL.

I just know the kid has like a 10-1 record as scum and there has to be a reason for it. He clearly doesn't win games because he's a stellar scumhunter-faker. So what alternative tactics could one use to amass such a stellar record?

* Appeal to emotion
* Berate and browbeat your accusers into submission
* Continue to lurk shamelessly
* Refuse to contribute and prey on the town's goodwill

I'm almost done with a summary post of everyone, but I plan to skim elias's 11 games as scum soon.

[CrashTextDummie]

So what alternative tactics could one use to amass such a stellar record?

* Appeal to emotion
* Berate and browbeat your accusers into submission
* Continue to lurk shamelessly
* Refuse to contribute and prey on the town's goodwill

*Have good scum buddies to carry your load/play against shit towns?

My opinion of Elias is entirely based on this game, because I don't have any meta on him (as I mentioned, the one game we played I believe he was scum in was sullied by a huge mod-fuckup). So I'm very much looking forward to you investigating this matter.

[MrBuddyLee]

Here is who each player finds scummy, kind of in order:
MBL: CTD, elias, pablito
bluesoul: elias, DGB, Ether
huck: elvis, CTD, pablito, patrick, elias
pablito: DGB, ether, elias
patrick: DGB, elias
chamber: elias, elvis
CTD: MBL, bluesoul, DGB, CDB, Patrick
elias: DGB, bluesoul
CDB: elvis, DGB
Ether: elvis, DGB
elvis: CDB, DGB, Ether, MBL
DGB: bluesoul, elvis, elias, pablito

Here is who each player finds townish:
MBL: elvis, chamber, Huck
bluesoul: e_k
huck: bluesoul, chamber, dgb
pablito: cdb, mbl, e_k, huck
patrick: bluesoul, mbl, ether, elvis, ctd, pablito, huck
CTD: elvis, elias
chamber: nada
elias: maaaybe MBL, bluesoul
CDB: nada
Ether: Patrick, elias, CDB
elvis: elias
DGB: nada

Please correct me where I'm incorrect about your positions. I'll update this post after hearing from everyone. I wanted to make a summary to clarify where we stand today and possibly point out conflicts and oddities.

8 find DGB scummy!
7 find elias scummy
4 find elvis scummy
3 find pablito scummy
3 find bluesoul scummy
2 find CDB scummy
2 find MBL scummy
2 find Patrick scummy
2 find CTD scummy
2 find Ether scummy
none find chamber or Huck scummy

5 find elvis townish
3 find elias townish
3 find bluesoul townish
3 find Huck townish
3 find MBL townish
2 find chamber townish
1 finds CDB townish
1 finds DGB townish
1 finds Ether townish
1 finds CTD townish
1 finds pablito townish
1 finds Patrick townish

[MrBuddyLee]

Random observations I came across while assembling all that:

huck notices that elvis is going after mbl while being disturbed by the dissolution of the dgb wagon. good observation, and since I know it's not protection of a scumpartner, protown points to huck for critical observation skills and true curiosity.

yeah, bluesoul checking other games to see what our players are up to is somewhat protown. i think ctd did the same with Ether.

pablito foses cdb but cdb is not a lurker he wants to lynch. curious--why is someone you suspect someone you don't want to lynch?

patrick same confusion with me on pablito, not many suspects at present. ctd also noted this and it has struck me as strange for a few days as patrick demoted several of his top suspects.

CTD is overconfident on PJ/pablito and elias. overconfident on one could be a cop-mason sign. two and that's out the window--is he just typically overconfident in his statements?

Ether's supersaint call could be interpreted as a warning to scumpartners not to hammer. Note that she hopped on the wagon quickly after DGB's hint at a power role.
July 28th--DGB softclaims
July 31st--Ether piles on a vote, the 5th.
August 3rd--Ether brings up the supersaint after metaing DGB as scum

Not sure Ether would go to the trouble of metaing DGB as scum if Ether is town--Ether seems pretty damned lazy.

[Patrick]

elvis is more middling ground.

[MrBuddyLee]

First three games I read of elias as scum, he posted one or two sentence posts and everyone let him coast through the game.

Then I read this one, and he spouted CAPITALIZED FUCK YOUS and RETARDS when he was at L-1. And continued that attitude throughout the game. And was scum.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6623

In this game, elias was scum and said that he was "done with this day" and that day ones are worthless for finding scum and such:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6869

In this game as scum, elias gets overdefsnsive after making a vote mistake and putting someone at L-1. Soon afterwards, he is bored of the game on D1 again.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5025

Elias lurked to victory in this game as scum:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6479

In this game as scum, elias is fairly active and when he gets in trouble counterattacks a player aggressively and gets him to back down:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6101

In this game as scum and a couple of the others, elias volunteers his own meta:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5221

In this game as town, elias survived a ton of attacks for his lurking. He got super overdefensive and angry, and called people MEAN NAMES IN CAPS.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5886

Conclusion: elias does a good job of hiding his meta but it does seem he gets disinterested/bored more often as scum and then scrambles to save himself from lurker lynch. He's earned his good record--he is VERY weaselly when under fire. His indignance sounds real.

I suggest that anyone who is thinking of clearing elias read a few of his other games before underestimating him. He is a clever monkey.

[bluesoul]

Here is who each player finds scummy, kind of in order:
MBL: CTD, elias, pablito
bluesoul: elias, DGB, Ether
huck: elvis, CTD, pablito, patrick, elias
pablito: DGB, ether, elias
patrick: DGB, elias
chamber: elias, elvis
CTD: MBL, bluesoul, DGB, CDB, Patrick
elias: DGB, bluesoul
CDB: elvis, DGB
Ether: elvis, DGB
elvis: CDB, DGB, Ether, MBL
DGB: bluesoul, elvis, elias, pablito

Here is who each player finds townish:
MBL: elvis, chamber, Huck
bluesoul: e_k
huck: bluesoul, chamber, dgb
pablito: cdb, mbl, e_k, huck
patrick: bluesoul, mbl, ether, elvis, ctd, pablito, huck
CTD: elvis, elias
chamber: nada
elias: maaaybe MBL, bluesoul
CDB: nada
Ether: Patrick, elias, CDB
elvis: elias
DGB: nada

Please correct me where I'm incorrect about your positions. I'll update this post after hearing from everyone. I wanted to make a summary to clarify where we stand today and possibly point out conflicts and oddities.

8 find DGB scummy!
7 find elias scummy
4 find elvis scummy
3 find pablito scummy
3 find bluesoul scummy
2 find CDB scummy
2 find MBL scummy
2 find Patrick scummy
2 find CTD scummy
2 find Ether scummy
none find chamber or Huck scummy

5 find elvis townish
3 find elias townish
3 find bluesoul townish
3 find Huck townish
3 find MBL townish
2 find chamber townish
1 finds CDB townish
1 finds DGB townish
1 finds Ether townish
1 finds CTD townish
1 finds pablito townish
1 finds Patrick townish

Interesting, thanks for this. For what it's worth your contributions have been protown in my opinion. An effort to keep a game with above-average reputation alive is respectable.

I do want to apologize for what's turned into an extended absence, work caught up with me and I had to take a vacation for physical and mental health reasons, I'll be quitting that job within a week or so and will just be working a 9 to 5. Can't wait. It is not laziness, not entirely anyway. I will admit I'm a little disappointed the day's taken this long and we're seemingly at an impasse, until the 11th at the very earliest (when DGB returns) and I don't see the game randomly picking up speed at this point.

Yes, actually. I believe that his childish attitude is genuine, and I believe he'd try to tone it done as scum. He's clearly proud of his achievements as scum, and I don't think he'd sully that reputation by behaving like this. I do believe he's a bad enough player to take a piss on a game like that as town though, since he clearly doesn't give a crap about his reputation as a town player.

Oh man, that's surprisingly thought-provoking. There's a nugget of validity to the statement, but I don't know if I can commit to the thought that boils down to "he's town because he's playing antitown".

For the purpose of discussion/content I'm gonna list the players from my opinion of scummiest to towniest.

1.) DGB - Despite dropping off the radar recently she's still been the most consistent to me. My position may be somewhat unique as most of the posts I find scummy reference me, so I'm naturally somewhat biased.
2.) Ether - I didn't realize it had been this long since she's posted but it's been nearly a month. Re-reading her posts she acts in a passive-aggressive manner, Ether 14 and 16 she stays on the wagon while expressing trepidation about the outcome, while offering a safe claim to DGB. Not 20 minutes after DGB points the finger at Elvis (DGB 47), she hops on the wagon (Ether 20). After the re-read she's even higher on my list than previously, but without her being present I don't know what to do for it.
3.) Elias - I'm revising my opinion due to recent discussion within the past few pages. I still believe that there are a few facets of his game thus far that are inherently antitown, namely citing his own playstyle repeatedly for the purpose of "null tells" (and playing down his ability as town, which is a great way to atone for sloppy scum play). Some of his posts on the defensive feel like frustrated town, some feel like cornered scum. The recent activity would have him sliding down the scumdar a bit.
4.) CTD - Most of it is just in the general tone in how he's dealt with Elias. I'll be the first to agree that his early absence was cause for discussion (and anger) but this is a little ridiculous. We get it, was it really necessary to drag it all the way into October? I still don't like CTD 17 and 18, which was hyperreaction to my statement that "leading the town as scum is a very effective and realistic possibility" (bluesoul 76).

To summarize:

Me: Pablito, I'm not sure why you're clearing CTD as town just because he's active. Scum can be active too.
CTD: So you're calling me scum?
Me: No, I'm saying it's not enough to clear you.
CTD: Well you obviously don't want people to be active. I'm active and therefore protown.

Pablito later clarified that his statement was based on metagame, but the question lingers. Why such a violent reaction to a common sense statement? If all it took to be protown was to be active...wouldn't it be in the scum's best interest to be equally active?

His interactions with MBL are quite interesting but I'm not comfortable with trying to reach a conclusion on it without more information down the line.

Going to bed, will try to finish the list tomorrow.

[Patrick]

1.) DGB - Despite dropping off the radar recently she's still been the most consistent to me. My position may be somewhat unique as most of the posts I find scummy reference me, so I'm naturally somewhat biased.

I'd like to hear more about this. You previously said DGB was looking significantly more protown to you; I'd still like to see some examples of protown moments from her and what caused her return to the top of your list.

[CrashTextDummie]

MBL's report on Elias is worrying. I'm gonna have to read through those games myself to check whether he's exaggerating. If his interpretation of Elias' scumplay is accurate, I might have to rethink my stance on him.

Bluesoul's timing is curious. He comes back right as his biggest aggressor comes under fire, and he doesn't adress any of the things I've brought up against him. Did you think I'd forget about you just because I have to do some defending of my own, Bluesoul?

Also interesting is that DGB is back at the top of his list, and Patrick earns some brownie points for pointing it out. Again, the timing is interesting: Interest in DGB is picking up again, and just like that, Bluesoul is back on board.

To summarize:

Me: Pablito, I'm not sure why you're clearing CTD as town just because he's active. Scum can be active too.
CTD: So you're calling me scum?
Me: No, I'm saying it's not enough to clear you.
CTD: Well you obviously don't want people to be active. I'm active and therefore protown.

I maintain that I wasn't hyper-reacting. Pro-activity is pro-town by definition. Good scum try to fake pro-activity to take advantage of this, in that you are correct. But just throwing out that "I might be trying to lead the town" doesn't serve any purpose other than to subtly discredit my efforts, as you didn't seem to have any indication that I actually was trying to lead the town. A lot of it also has to do with your choice of words in Post 792. Stuff like "just saying" and "bad logic" imply that is it ludicrous for Pablito to get a pro-town read off of my contributions. I find it amusing that you're now giving MBL pro-town points for the same kind of pro-activity:

Interesting, thanks for this. For what it's worth your contributions have been protown in my opinion. An effort to keep a game with above-average reputation alive is respectable.

No worries that he might be trying to lead the town, then? "An effort to keep a game with above-average reputation alive"... I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I was doing.

Happy with my vote. Would appreciate more people on bluesoul.

[bluesoul]

Bluesoul's timing is curious. He comes back right as his biggest aggressor comes under fire, and he doesn't adress any of the things I've brought up against him. Did you think I'd forget about you just because I have to do some defending of my own, Bluesoul?

Your accusation has been noted and disregarded.

No worries that he might be trying to lead the town, then? "An effort to keep a game with above-average reputation alive"... I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I was doing.

Happy with my vote. Would appreciate more people on bluesoul.

It's an issue of quality versus quantity. I am commending MBL for the quality of his posts, not the quantity. I maintain that the quantity of posts is not indicative of alignment.

[bluesoul]

And no, I have not forgotten your questions but most of them are outdated to the point of being irrelevant, and I think this list will be more beneficial than answering your questions. However I slept late today and will be going in to work soon, but I will try and finish the list tonight.

[CrashTextDummie]

It's an issue of quality versus quantity. I am commending MBL for the quality of his posts, not the quantity. I maintain that the quantity of posts is not indicative of alignment.

You say that when MBL's post you quoted and specifically commended is exactly the type of post scum can whip up to appear active with absolutely no danger of giving themselves away at all.

So that's the kind of quality that indicates pro-townness to you? I haven't checked that post in all its detail, but note that it's inaccurate when it comes to the people I find townish at least. Wouldn't surprise me if it had other inaccuracies.

If there's other contributions of his you find specifically commendable, point them out. The implication you're making here is that MBL=quality, CTD=quantity, and if that's what you're saying, you're gonna have to substantiate it. Otherwise, I'm gonna have to assume you're using double-standards.

[bluesoul]

The implication you're making here is that MBL=quality, CTD=quantity, and if that's what you're saying, you're gonna have to substantiate it. Otherwise, I'm gonna have to assume you're using double-standards.

Actually I don't

have

to do a goddamn thing. I may elaborate on it if I feel like it, but then again I may not. I asked a question a while back about double standards that never got answered so perhaps you can share in my pain for a while. Perhaps I simply find MBL more protown than I find you, god knows I thought Sarc and bird played scummily.

And if you'll bother to read I didn't commend him for that post, I commended him for the sum of his posts. I simply thanked him for doing the legwork in coming up with that list.

If we're going to talk about double standards, how about calling me out for going after easy to attack players and then doing the same thing yourself in attacking Elias?

[MrBuddyLee]

CTD, please point out the inaccuracies in my post. I did the best I could based on available information. The fact that I made the post should have no bearing on my alignment, and I'm surprised that's even an issue. It's just a tool to help get us to where we need to be. A few things, particularly the fact that 8/12 find DGB scummy, caught my eye.

[mith]

TSQ hasn't responded to a PM I sent him a couple days ago. I'll get a vote count up as soon as I have time (tomorrow, at the earliest). If everyone could PM me their role in case I need to find a replacement mod, that would be helpful.

[CrashTextDummie]

If we're going to talk about double standards, how about calling me out for going after easy to attack players and then doing the same thing yourself in attacking Elias?

I'm pretty sure you are aware that the situations don't compare. I never voted Elias, and I never made a move to get him lynched (quite the contrary actually).

CTD, please point out the inaccuracies in my post. I did the best I could based on available information. The fact that I made the post should have no bearing on my alignment, and I'm surprised that's even an issue. It's just a tool to help get us to where we need to be. A few things, particularly the fact that 8/12 find DGB scummy, caught my eye.

You missed that I find Pablito pro-town also, even though you mention it in your next post. And I agree that this tells us nothing about your alignment, which was kind of my point.