Choose Carefully Mafia: (Game Over)

[Save The Dragons]

/confirm

[Save The Dragons]

Random Vote: Rope

[Save The Dragons]

I'm not too worried about which weapon is important, pretty much for the reason Moses le Fou said, so I'm willing to even just ignore it for the time being.

If we're at LYLO or pretty close, then it's more important, but right now, it just means that we may just have to kill our scum a day late or even the night after.

[Save The Dragons]

Also, can oEJo explain his non-random vote, please?

You should too.

When someone says they're mafia as a joke, they usually are.

Seriously? This is your reasoning?

Vote: ZTR

I'm willing to believe OeJA about the tell.

Vote: Rope

For: Hp[leaves

- He random random voted.

Vote: Empking

I'm willing to believe this tell: Bandwagoning for poor reason.

it's logical to assume that he

must

have been named to you in your role.

How can you be so sure about what he said that allows you to think he must have armlx in his PM? You seriously think he couldn't

a) be making shit up
b) have misread something <===this is my pick right now.
c) have received information pre game from the mod
d) have picked up a meta tell
e) be reading too much into BM's mention of armlx's name.

[Save The Dragons]

You're right, Armlx.

Still, A, B, C, and what Sineish said are all possibilities.

Sineish's assumption that there's only one possibility seems like an easy way to justify his suspicion on CarnCarn.

FoS CarnCarn & Armlx

Not sure what to make of the argument right now, but definitely worth watching.

Not really helpful to suspect both sides. While it's possible both are scum, it seems a bit silly to just suggest that both sides are suspicions and leave it at that.

Carncarn, are you going to talk about it, or are you just going to dangle this piece of candy in front of us and withdraw your hand at the last minute? I don't really respond to arguments like, "I have info, but I'm not sayin' nothin'."

[Save The Dragons]

UNVOTE
FoS:Empking

for wagonhopping.

Vote: Riceballtail

I've seen nothing substantial from you. Your parroting of others and your on the fence analysis of what's happened with armlx/Carncarn does not bode well with me. And here you take your vote off someone, but instead of putting it on someone you find suspicious, you FOS. Why didn't you vote?

[Save The Dragons]

Well, I'm glad you guys do, but it doesn't really clear them in the slightest (not that I don't believe the claims).

@BM: get out of my head...

[Save The Dragons]

Personally, I think masons are any two players that can talk that aren't scum together. Masons can be town or scum, and I think declaring them to be only players that can talk and know each other's alignment limits their secondary purpose. But a) that's semantics b) it really doesn't matter for this game.

@hp [leaves]: I'm a little disappointed with your latest contribution. Anyone looking suspicious to you?

Ugh, the worst part about all this is that we can't go on anything that armlx has been saying. He's been playing the past four pages based off a different PM, meaning that any tells that he might have exhibited are null. Now, if we were to figure out which game he thought the PM for this one was for. . .

Unless he's lying.

Since confusing up a role PMs is not automatically a predilection to being scum, Occum's Razor is tasty in this situation.

Yeah, this game seems large enough to have 2 scum teams.

The set up itself implies 2 scum groups. considering we have to choose which one is lynch vulnerable each day.....

Going ahead and clearing up any remaining confusion. You know for a fact that there is a Sicilian Mafia and a Corsican Mafia in the setup.

Reading through, Armlx is starting to smell...right up until this comment by the Mod. Why would the Mod post this? It seems fairly obvious to anyone who is paying attention. And it's not like it will really have a major impact on the game if it isnt remembered. That is, i cannot see how the Mod could possibly make this comment if Armlx was scum, because if he did, it could be considering meddling with what could be a ploy by Armlx.
As such, he's pretty much confirmed town.

BM

I'm not sure I understand how the mod agreeing with Armlx makes him town. I don't understand what kind of ploy Armlx could be pulling, because he's pretty much giving information from the OP.

I am pretty sure I voted for gun.

Fixed.

This is 'why Santos'.

BM

Interesting. I'm down with that, but I still like RBT better for now.

[Save The Dragons]

I disagree with what you said, as it is pretty clear to me that Armlx knew the set up. So please forgive me if I vote Armlx later (with suspicious behavior, of course).

Forgiving that, even so, it really doesn't change much if the mod posts something that's posted in the OP.

I dunno. I'm just uncomfortable clearing people unless we have concrete game information. This isn't enough for me.

[Save The Dragons]

Santos makes it clear that he wants to be voting gun. It's a pretty weak tell, since it really could be someone correcting the mod, but it also does make me suspect him (very slightly) to be of the mafia that is immune to gun.

If BM got something different from that, he'll have to say it, but that's what I got from it (after he pointed it out).

Forgetting the gimmick does not seem to be a scum tell, rather, if it's a tell at all (which I don't think it is) it's probably a town tell, since if he were scum, CarnCarn'd have more reason to know about it, but if he were town, it's not really on his mind.

[Save The Dragons]

I think if he were scum, he'd be more in tune with the setup, and less likely to use this as a ploy.

I don't like when people attack people because they "could be scum making a ploy..." or "if he's lying about this, he could be scum!" It's not a good tell. Scum aren't gambitmongers that try to lie and cheat their way through the game. Scum are people who blend in with the town. If a gambit fails, then you're standing in the middle of the street with your pants off, but if you fail at blending, you're just standing in the middle of the street.

[Save The Dragons]

Santos makes it clear that he wants to be voting gun. It's a pretty weak tell, since it really could be someone correcting the mod, but it also does make me suspect him (very slightly) to be of the mafia that is immune to gun.

If BM got something different from that, he'll have to say it, but that's what I got from it (after he pointed it out).

That's part of it. But the fact the Mod got confused, could be linked to the only extra mechanic in the game- scum who are immune to certain weapons. Perhaps the Mod automatically put Santos-scum as voting Gun, because he is gun-immune, and this is logical. In other words, the mod error reflects badly in either direction.

Eh...I figured you'd say this, but I was hoping you didn't think this. The mod correcting a mistake is not a tell or an error at all. You're assuming that the mod has memorized the setup up, knows which scum group each player is off the top of his head, and that the mod would think that a scum player would automatically vote for the weapon that doesn't kill them.

Big stretch.

Uhh, that sounds like a gambit to me. "Lets just hope everyone in the game didn't real the sign up thread hur hur."

QFT. Moses, you're saying he slipped up by saying something like, "maybe I can confuse the town if I say something like XXXX."

That's kind of a gambit.

I think it's more likely to conclude that he got confused with the way it is in every other mafia game, where we don't know how many killing groups there are on D1.

I don't want to exclude that from the realm of possibility, but I personally am going to need something concrete before I consider CarnCarn a possibility.

[Save The Dragons]

Vote: Moses le fou

...why...?

I am not going to vote for a rope or gun at the moment because now it just seems to mess with other player's abilities to find scummy tells when they have become much too reliant on these abrasive lynch methods.

Especially since I call it a weak tell at best and BM seems to be finding anyone the mod looks at to be suspicious, and no one else has really commented much about it, (in the context of you) I don't think people are really reliant on it.

Otherwise, what it seems like you're saying is "I'm going to hide my scummy tells by not doing this action" which = "I'm scum and I'm trying not to get caught."

[Save The Dragons]

Empking is short and sweet, that's pretty much how he does things from what I've seen. He has his uses on some players though. Personally if you HAVE played with Emp and you're suspicious of him at this stage in the game for essentially doing what he always does, IGMEYO.

Yes, because lackluster participation that appears scummy should be encouraged and used as meta, not treated as scummy.

RE: Santos,

I didn't like the "I don't want to participate in gun/rope" shtick.

I really didn't like the "I'm jumping on Moses because I want to put pressure on a bandwagon no wait I'm going to unvote him now."

I didn't like how he called out Riceballtail as doing a good job.

Santos wagon FTW

Vote: Santos

[Save The Dragons]

I should probably amend my statement...

I realize that players do play anti-town ways, and there's not much you can do to change them. People don't change just because others (or I) would like them to.

My biggest problem I don't want to give a free pass to a player that could be suspicious just because he's doing what he always does. I misread your post, which basically states what I believe (that going after him for doing what he always does is counterproductive). I guess I'll just keep my eye on the situation and see if I can figure out any tells, although it will be hard for me to determine what is normal and what is not (and I have no intention of looking) so I bet over the course of this game I'll probably vote him several times.

[Save The Dragons]

Anyone who votes me ever is clearly a moron.

[Save The Dragons]

Don't lovers usually know they're lovers?

The only time I saw them called lovers they knew. I've also seen them called Siamese twins in a game that took place a couple years ago, but they also knew...

[Save The Dragons]

Memorized everybody's roles?

I doubt it.

We're in a 19 player game, by my count. If a Mod can't remember 19 roles, he's in a lot of trouble. How do you expect someone to moderate a game when they dont know everyone's role??
Wow.... 0.o

BM

Hi. I have modded on MS. I've modded newbies back when they were 7 players, and I've had to check to make sure that people were what I thought they were.

No, but the mod doesn't need to remember who has what role. Just have a record of who has what role.

QFT. Dude, the point is that a mod may not remember exactly which player has what role on D1, nor do they need to, because, it's...uh...day, and no one...uh...does anything.

If they didnt KNOW, theyd always be unsure, and would thus, always be checking, until such a time as they LEARNT THE DAMN ROLES.

Uh...dude. The posts in question are 42 and 79 (after about 16 confirmation posts). There's no reason to check what role someone is just because they've posted.

It's not difficult to remember something fairly simple. If your brain cant keep track of 'Name: Role' for 16 people, then you have serious problems.

Uh...dude. I memorized the english equivalent to 125 spanish phrases in one afternoon, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to memorize the roles to all the players in Newbie 680 (game I'm modding).

And your statement requires all three of my points to be true...can I assume you agree with the others and this is the only one you had problems with?

So now that we've had this pointless argument, what's next?

A lot of mods also enjoy reading their own games to see the ebb and flow of how each role reacts with each other, so they are very familier with everyone and what they do.

Also, generally when a mod makes a mistake, its a simple one such as a misplaced vote, not a game mechanic one dealing with interaction of roles.


There in no reason in my mind to believe that the mod is just ignorantly bumbling through the game actting only as a vote counter.

Hi. I've modded both ways. There's no reason to assume our mod is one way or the other. But then again, that's not really the point.





EVERYONE STOP.

We are getting waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off topic. If your name is not BM, then talk about anything else. The point is,

The mod correcting a mistake is not a tell or an error at all. You're assuming that the mod has memorized the setup up, knows which scum group each player is off the top of his head, and that the mod would think that a scum player would automatically vote for the weapon that doesn't kill them.

The most important one is the last one, because technically the mod could look it up if he felt like it, but in order for BM's accusation to be true, all of those statements need to be correct, in that the mod must know which role a player is (the first two), and that he must make the mistake of assuming the scum would act a certain way.

Three other factors serve to be problematic:

1) If Santos isn't scum, this all doesn't matter.
2) The mod is equally likely to correct a mistake made by player regardless of role.
3) There's no really good way for the scum to vote for a lynching weapon. Voting for the opposite one seems to make sense, but they can WIFOM by voting for their own, or they could abstain. You're accusation also requires voting for the opposite weapon to be the most desireable outcome for scum, which I'm not sure it is.

[Save The Dragons]

1) If Santos isn't scum, this all doesn't matter.

So you're still happy to lynch me without having a thoughtful accusation? I need discourse and a cookie!

Yes, that's exactly what I said. (Sarcasm!)

And that is definitely the one point you should take out of my post. (More sarcasm!)

[Save The Dragons]

I still want confirmation if Santos was actually claiming "mason" or not.

Oh yeah, and this would be nice.

[Save The Dragons]

It's still D1. No actions. I assume the mod has better things to do than sit in front of his computer and memorize which role goes with which person pregame.

I'm not saying he won't know some of them, but I am saying that he's going to remember that XXXX belongs to YYY scum group before even receiving a night choice from them.

Hi. I have modded on MS. I've modded newbies back when they were 7 players, and I've had to check to make sure that people were what I thought they were.

And at no point in the game did you have any idea who was who?

On D1, when the lynch occurred, it behooved me to double check to make sure that if I said someone was townie, they were actually a townie. There were points in the game where I had no idea who was who. When I modded Dragon Mafia (before my untimely disappearance) I knew most of the roles, because most of them were silly. But I still probably would not have been able to know 100% of the roles had you quizzed me on them.

Ugh. Look around buddy. This is the Theme Park. In case you haven't been here before, it's where the wacky games go. One's that can have roles with actions DURING THE DAY. *facepalm*

Dear BattleMage,

The role in question, i.e., scum, is very unlikely to have a mechanic during the day. I am not arguing whether or not a mod in general knows the roles, but rather, in this specific situation, whether it is possible. Normally, I'd agree with you, but in this situation, on D1, with a fairly non-wacky set up, and with a mod who has been (no offence, mod) not really on top of the ball here, I think it's a little unreasonable to assume that he knew Santos was scum and that he knew which group.

Love, STD.

There is no reason to check the roles atall, if you know them. Equally, if you dont know them, you should be constantly checking until you do, because otherwise, you can't effectively run the game.

No. you don't need to know everyone's roles during the day, unless there are specific day mechanics, and then at that point, you only need to know the roles of those characters with day mechanics. And even then, they might be triggered, so if someone says, "DAYKILL: BABYJESUS" then the mod can even wake up and say "oh, let me check and see if I actually put a day kill in this game."

Newbie games are somewhat different, as you will only get actions at night. But, if you dont know the roles by Night 1, you will have to check, and keep checking every night, until you learn them. Same principle, but to a lesser degree.

You're right. However the post in question happened on D1 in a game that started with day.

See? When you put it like that, my logic seems pretty sound.

Perhaps you should read that again.

I'm basically saying "If X and Y and Z are true, then C."

My argument is that NONE of those are true. You're arguing that X and Y are true, but you haven't said anything about Z.

1) If Santos isn't scum, this all doesn't matter.

Duh. But the whole point of this discussion is trying to answer that question.

Yeah, I realized after I posted this, I was being a bit beligerant. My bad.

But is the Moderator equally likely to make a mistake about the mechanic, regardless of role? Imo, the answer is no.

I'd argue yes, merely because the mod has basically turned it into a vote count, and there's no evidence to suggest that he'll treat it other than a vote count, and we have evidence that he's messed up the vote count already, so unless you think that he's made a mistake with the people who's votes he's messed up (read, the three posts before mine), I'm not sure how you can keep saying this.

at the game's most basic level, at which the Mod will probably be looking at it, the default position of scum is to preserve themselves.

Wow, you're assuming a lot. But you're entire argument is based on several assumptions, so I guess there's nothing I can do.

[Save The Dragons]

tl,dr; Most of what you're saying doesn't apply to this situation, because there's been no night, the mod's made mistakes, and you're assuming a lot for the mod to guess what the scum's going to do.

You know what, you should probably just post something to the effect of "I don't agree," so we can move on with our lives. Or you can post stuff, and if there's nothing specific that I cannot leave uncommented on, I'll probably look elsewhere for suspicion.

Unless you think this argument is going to help each other determine our alignments (which I don't think it will), then we should probably stop.

[Save The Dragons]

My one concern with this is picking a lynch method is this case is rather random, and we have 0 information on which one would be beneficial. I think we should pick a player we want to lynch and then pick the method we think will be most likely to kill them.

[Save The Dragons]

My point is that if we decide we want to lynch Player X, we can go back and say, "Player X vote rope right off the bat. Player X felt that it was not very important to talk about voting weapons. Player X chastised player Y for voting gun."

I agree though, that doesn't really matter much, and immunity is going to tell us more.

[Save The Dragons]

I assume you missed my comment that this is the Theme Park, and day-roles do exist. Can you say 100% that there arent any in this game?

No I did not miss it. That's why I said several times that my argument only applied to this specific game and I do not think that scum have day roles, which is something I assume you missed.

The insinuation that I don't care about my games just because I don't take the time to sit in front of my computer pre-game and make sure I know exactly who is who and who does what when it is not yet necessary to do so is a little insulting, and a little baffling.

But whatever. I'm done with this argument right now. It's pointless, as far as I'm concerned we're shouting useless things, but my pride is the only thing making me continue.

[Save The Dragons]

BM: We're arguing two different things. I agree with your points that you keep saying, in a generic context, but you keep ignoring mine, which are very specific. If you want to keep having this argument and actually try to convince me of something, you're going to have to actually defend your position as it applies to this situation.

[Save The Dragons]

We agree to wagon you.

[Save The Dragons]

Actually, BM's not voting you. Never mind...

[Save The Dragons]

Vote: Moses le fou

As for my 'bandwagon' vote I didn't want to be redundant in saying 'to add some pressure'.

Unvote: Moses le fou

.

I have been examining Riceballtail's play and I am impressed with his performance.

1) If Santos isn't scum, this all doesn't matter.

So you're still happy to lynch me without having a thoughtful accusation? I need discourse and a cookie!

I'm down with the Santos wagon. The last 4 posts have been buddying, going from poking suspicion at my/CC's role to "believing it entirely", and distancing from a wagon.

Maybe because I have a very similar role to what you two have claimed. Though, in this case, I do not advise my 'mason' to announce it now.

[/quote]

RE: Santos,

I didn't like the "I don't want to participate in gun/rope" shtick.

I really didn't like the "I'm jumping on Moses because I want to put pressure on a bandwagon no wait I'm going to unvote him now."

I didn't like how he called out Riceballtail as doing a good job.

Santos wagon FTW

Vote: Santos

That's why I'm doing it, I can't speak for others.

[Save The Dragons]

And that's really being nitpicky, IMO, Save the Dragons, but that is what is nice about having our own opinions I guess.

First of all, you call

several

accusations against you (that you completely ignored the first time around) nitpicky. Really?

Second of all, you think it's okay to write off my accusations against you because you want to call them nitpicky? You're not going to even bother to treat them as points against you or actually even put some effort in making yourself to convincing me you're not scum? Really?

Third of all, do you understand all my attacks against you? Some of them are admittedly vague. Do you not want to talk about them? Why? Really?

UNVOTE; VOTE:Armlx
FoS:Moses

Thought: Armlx is trying to get a name out of him to see if it's a scumbuddy, so he can figure out if CC is also therefore scum or not.

I as well must commend you on your excellent play! You vote for armlx, then you accuse him of scumhunting. Which is clearly a scummy thing to do.

(Granted, I understand that scum are searching for scum of the other team, but if you really think that Armlx is scum, and he's searching for scum from the other team in his mason partner and someone else's mason partner, how exactly does is that a tell as scum? Couldn't he just as likely or even more likely be town?)

Unless, of course, you have another reason for voting armlx and have decided not to share it.

[Save The Dragons]

If either the RBT calling out or the vote/unvote for Moses were partner breadcrumbs, I'm going to facepalm my brain out of my skull.

[Save The Dragons]

If either the RBT calling out or the vote/unvote for Moses were partner breadcrumbs, I'm going to facepalm my brain out of my skull.

This was in reference to Santos's activities.

But yeah, I'm going to have to agree with you on the whole bizarrely ridiculous part, especially since I was starting to RBT as more likely to be town.

[Save The Dragons]

Really? Because there are a lot of ambiguities I have not seen answered.

Why did you vote Moses, citing as your evidence for voting him a bandwagon/pressure vote, when Moses had no votes at the time, and you didn't give any reason for wanting to pressure Moses?

Why did you unvote him after nothing had happened?

Why did you arbitrarily commend RBT's play when it has not been all the great in the opinions of other players? Why RBT specifically, why at the time, what specifically (i.e. examples) about his play has been good?

Why do you ask me for discourse when you don't provide it yourself? Why do you accuse me of lynching you with no evidence when you claim that I have said stuff (but it's already been explained)?

In fact, the only thing you have answered is

Something new:

The claim for having a mason and NOT knowing the other mason's alignment bugs me.

Maybe because I have a very similar role to what you two have claimed.

Your role PM better say that your buddy is confirmed, or I'm probably not taking my vote off you. I'm not really sure how you can be bugged by someone having your own role.

[Save The Dragons]

I have a feel that because Santos's partner hasn't stepped up, he is probably just scum and no buddy wants to be linked like that.

This. Even if a partner does come out, I'm sold.

Confirm vote: Santos

die scum die.

[Save The Dragons]

Rope lynches scum, gun kills townies. Why would it be the other way around?

Vote: Gun

I am pretty sure I voted for gun.

Fixed.

TOWNIE KILLER DIE DIE DIE

[Save The Dragons]

[q]This, I don't like. The Gun/Rope vote is very linked to people possibly being scum. Avoiding it = bad. [/q]
How do you get this? I'm just being honest. Why should I vote for something when people are just going to point the finger at me? At least have a reason to FoS me if you're just going to say, "Hey, look at that apple among the apples in that barrel! I'm going to choose this one for the hell of it!"
Basically, why is my vote/unvote more suspicious than others who have voted or unvoted the same material? Since the day is not ending soon, why do I need to be immediately hasty and appease everyone with a vote that doesn't matter at the moment? We have time to make up for that.

Also, I want to make a collaborative effort and make sure there is a good reason to have a vote for whatever particular lynch method; that would be working together to find scum this day and then deciding on a method, or am I shooting blanks with this logic?

Can we make a list of priorities?

1) Lets hold off methods until we decide to lynch someone.
2) Lets pick a method and have a good reason to choose just that method.
3) Lets pick a method and someone to vote for immediately.

Option 3 just seems too hasty, IMO. The other two are satisfactory, and perhaps more preferable.

As for my 'bandwagon' vote I didn't want to be redundant in saying 'to add some pressure'.

STD, I don't think the order really matters that much because if we lynch a scum immune to the method, then it will be obvious. Unless it becomes clear that someone is scum of a definate group, I don't see how it matters which order we settle on method and player.

This is about the most legitimate and concrete thing I have seen this entire thread.

Seriously, either you're scum, or the guy from Memento.

[Save The Dragons]

Unique:

Granted, it's not like this:

Unique Rules to this game!!!!!!!!1111111!!1one!!!

But this is the theme park, and there are clearly different rules in this set up.

Just a short post for now; I'm Santos' unconfirmed Mason (Neighbour)
He's scum, based on symmetry stuff.

Lol, wat? Then who of Armlx + CarnCarn is scum?

I'm not trying to argue that there wouldn't be multiple one town, one scum pairings (read, on the off chance that Santos turns up town, I'm going to take a good look at you tomorrow), but how do you know there isn't also one or two town-town pairings so that we don't inherently break the setup D1?

Actually, Riceballtail had voted for me when Santos jumped on. Actually, that's what brought my eye to Santos -- it felt like he was trying to get a wagon on me because pressure had just begun to shift his way because of the lynch method discussion BM brought up. Coupled with his lack of explanation for the vote. I read it as him going "Errr, enough about me -- let's talk about somebody else!"

Vote Count:

Moses le fou (1): Santos

This is what I get for trusting the vote count. So it does appear he's randomly bandwagoning. Alright.

Yes, and one in particular is how hasty people are to get vote happy when certain things have not been discussed to the fullest.
ex: Someone mentioned how a scum would avoid a particular lynch method, or WIFOM vote for their lynch method that is sure to kill them. Right? Wasn't this brought up? Well, did anyone ask if scum REALLY know what it is that they would be more susceptible to? If there are different lynch methods, then why would scum be privy to such information beforehand in a voting scheme? Answer that one and you get a million ducks!

I think we all just won a million ducks.

As I recall, I was the SECOND vote on Moses and it was purely random, again, but I mentioned I didn't want to sound redundant later because it would appear scummy. But if someone throws in their little tid-bit about 'WIFOM'

someone

my get nitpicky and have a hay-day with it.

Sorry, I missed the fact it was the second vote.

Still...uh...random? Seriously dude?

No particular reason.

Do you see a danger with voting and unvoting someone for no particular reason? Do you see a pro-town reason for voting for someone in the middle of the game for no particular reason?

I just wanted to mention Riceballtail's ability to stay behind the scenes and at the same time be omnipresent throughout the thread...its either a good scum tactic, or a strong pro town power role being conservative...you take your pick.

Now that I'm not being stupid and am aware that the vote count was wrong, I have more insight as to why you chose RBT.

However, his posting style has brought a lot of probably unwated attention to himself in the form of FOSs and votes...which is bad for both scum and a pro town power role. So yeah, I have no idea where you're going with this, or why you'd blindly follow him if he could be scum.

For the record, I did NOT partake in #4 on your list (unless I have and forget, then feel free to call me on douchebaggery).

If by random vote, you mean on page 1 or 2, I don't care. If by random vote, you mean a lynch method, yeah, that looks a little iffy to me, and I think the rope's the best way of doing you in. If you are refering to your page 7 "random" vote, then hellz yeah that seems like some decent evidence to me.

It doesn't have to appeal to you. It is strict in the fact that I am a 'neighbor' and my mason's alignment is unknown. If you're going to make up other things about my role email, then you might as well throw an 'OMGUS' at me as well! :p

To say your play has been inconsistant this entire game would be an understatement.

Yes, I mentioned this because I was not going to jump right in and say 'OMG I HAVE THE SAME ROLE' I wanted to test the water with the people who claimed to have the same ability I did. Why can I not do this? If armlx and CarnCarn ARE really masons, why not speculate about the ability to see if its true what they are saying? That's what you guys seem to have done to me, no; speculating as to whether I am lying or not?

However, you make a good point. The way you phrase it does not really suggest to me that you're testing the waters to see if there's consistancy between their role and yours ("Hey, does your role PM say you guys are confirmed?" vs. "I'm wary of this claim because it doesn't say they're confirmed.")

18. Each Mafia group has to choose whether their kill can affect pro-town people or members of the opposite group

I think this is the message we're supposed to walk away with.

Rope lynches scum, gun kills townies. Why would it be the other way around?

Gun kills Corsicans, Rope kills Sicilians.
Actually, after thinking about this some more, I'm beginning to think the NK methods for scum are different from the Gun/Rope lynch methods (they would have to be, based on the opening post, IMO).
For example, the Corsican can choose to NK with Rope or some other weapon that kills only townies (and to which the Sicilians are immune). Otherwise, the Corsicans can just NK with Rope all the time. So, each scum group is actually immune to 2 weapons, for this work out.
However, I don't understand why the Corsicans wouldn't choose Rope anyway because Rope should be able to kill townies as well (AFAIK, I have no protection against any weapon). This setup is driving me insane right now.

Their has been nothing to suggest that the Corsicans use rope as their night kill.

Hmm...

[Save The Dragons]

The guy from Memento was just kind of screwed...I don't know if he would be considered scum. Although no one in that movie is really a good guy...

[Save The Dragons]

I don't see that role actually working...(a good description of his character, but I don't see it's functionality in a game of mafia).

[Save The Dragons]

Too much design space taken up. That would involve at least 6 roles like that.

So...you think that it's not possible to have a town-town mason group due to both symmetry and design space (especially if Santos comes up scum).

Does this mean you think your partner is scum?

[Save The Dragons]

That's all well and good, but I've said some stuff on the past page that pretty much makes me convinced you're scum. If you want to defend yourself against it, you're more than welcome to.

(and actually claiming Neighbor doesn't really affect anything, because it doesn't mean you can't be scum...)

[Save The Dragons]

I have spoken only the truth.

Then I shall not take my vote off of you, baring someone pretty much blatantly saying "I'm scum."

[Save The Dragons]

My bad to RBT and armlx...I did miss the S1-S2 and T-T possibility. Still, I'm not going to discount the possibility of 3+ mason sets so easily (even if it does seem a little weird).

[Save The Dragons]

*****BOOOOOOOOOOOOM*****

That was the sound of my head exploding.

[Save The Dragons]

...if we don't get him with whatever method we use today, we can have a quick tomorrow. Granted, two nights to one day is not great, but the scum will eventually encounter the problem of choosing who to kill.

I think we could talk in circles as to which method's most likely to kill Santos, but the only way to tell for realzies is if we do it.

XXX

Don't give too much weight to the power of players who seem more experienced than you, because they can be fallible, scum, or abrasive, all of which could be bad if you get comfortable with them.

[Save The Dragons]

Zazier, christiano drago and ZTR...why are you voting me?

I felt like it

Change Vote: Rope

Don't be that guy.

Santos: Post 335 and 336. If you want me to reword them into more legitimate arguments, I'm cool with that, but I am really curious as to your thought process at that point.

[Save The Dragons]

Posting to avoid prod.

Not much has went on since I really posted.

I would disagree.

Thanks to the both of you for this ironic and pointless conversation.

I'm sorry, RBT, but unlike Santos, I won't follow you just because you vote someone, so if you want me to be convinced of armlx's guilt, you're going to have to spell it out for me. Otherwise, I'm perfectly content in voting a player you find to be town.

I'd love a little more from ZTR as well.

There there is zero reason at all for tomorrow to be 'quick'. The night choices made N1 and discussion of such might lead to new information, regardless of whether or not Santos is the lynch today and gets strung up. The amount of people that could die in 2 nights could really alter the towns perceptions before everyone could even respond.

If we don't get that sort of info, we'll probably want to kill the person we wanted to kill the first day but couldn't. But true, if we get more information, we can have a more informed decision.

[Save The Dragons]

UNVOTE; VOTE:Armlx
FoS:Moses

Thought: Armlx is trying to get a name out of him to see if it's a scumbuddy, so he can figure out if CC is also therefore scum or not.

I as well must commend you on your excellent play! You vote for armlx, then you accuse him of scumhunting. Which is clearly a scummy thing to do.

(Granted, I understand that scum are searching for scum of the other team, but if you really think that Armlx is scum, and he's searching for scum from the other team in his mason partner and someone else's mason partner, how exactly does is that a tell as scum? Couldn't he just as likely or even more likely be town?)

Unless, of course, you have another reason for voting armlx and have decided not to share it.

This doesn't spell why I think your reasoning behind armlx is bullshit?

ZTR: Are you even willing to bother demonstrating that you're more than just bandwagoning Santos because it's easy? Do you actually think Santos is scum?

[Save The Dragons]

Waiting for a dead Santos.

This.

QFT.

My next post will contain the case on Santos.

The post after that will discuss everything else.

So don't lynch anyone yet.

[Save The Dragons]

Vote: Gun

I am pretty sure I voted for gun.

Fixed.

Putting the mod edit aside, Santos clearly decides he wants gun. This is a weak tell that suggests that he wants the gun more than the rope or over nothing, and the only reason he'd want one over the other is if he was scum.

Of course, this could also just mean he wants his vote counted. But trust me, it gets better:

Rope lynches scum, gun kills townies. Why would it be the other way around?

Much later in the game, he says this. Then why the hell would he vote gun in the begining if he thought this?

Can we make a list of priorities?

1) Lets hold off methods until we decide to lynch someone.
2) Lets pick a method and have a good reason to choose just that method.
3) Lets pick a method and someone to vote for immediately.

Option 3 just seems too hasty, IMO. The other two are satisfactory, and perhaps more preferable.

As for my 'bandwagon' vote I didn't want to be redundant in saying 'to add some pressure'.

I am not going to vote for a rope or gun at the moment because now it just seems to mess with other player's abilities to find scummy tells when they have become much too reliant on these abrasive lynch methods.

STD, I don't think the order really matters that much because if we lynch a scum immune to the method, then it will be obvious. Unless it becomes clear that someone is scum of a definate group, I don't see how it matters which order we settle on method and player.

This is about the most legitimate and concrete thing I have seen this entire thread.

However, these posts suggest that he does in fact understand the concept behind the two lynch methods.

Vote: Moses le fou

He places a bandwagon vote on Moses.

As for my 'bandwagon' vote I didn't want to be redundant in saying 'to add some pressure'.

In his next post, he says he didn't want to say "he's just adding pressure."

Pressure is a bullshit reason. I'm sorry, it is. It's easily used as a seemingly legit reason, when in reality, it's a way for scum to slide onto a bandwagon (not that I'm particularly happy with the way that people have been sliding onto the Santos wagon).

Unvote: Moses le fou

.

Then, all of a sudden, he unvotes. Why?

I have been examining Riceballtail's play and I am impressed with his performance. I'm not sure whether I want to follow it or not. There is nothing ambiguous at all in his posting skills. Its either a very good scum poster, or a very careful power role. I aspire to play this way :p

But he still appluads RBT's play. Why is he following him if he's not sure whether he's scum or town? Is that why you unvoted?

I can't help myself. The claim for having a mason and NOT knowing the other mason's alignment bugs me. Is there more we can break from this? Obviously the plain fact that they're masons we would naturally assume they would both be town aligned, but adding in the fact that they do not know each other's alignment makes me a lot more skeptical. I mean, what good is having this ability? EX: If I were in CarnCarn/armlx's shoes why not just talk in the game thread to each other?

He has the exact same role! How can he say that them having something he doesn't have bothers him?

Seriously. Armlx and CarnCarn, masons, are like Santos and oEJo. So why is he doubting something their role doesn't have if he doesn't have it himself? If he sees that they have the exact same details as him, that should help confirm them as their role (not alignment, of course, but their role).

There are no discrepancies I have made unless someone can point them out to which I can better explain them (although I have multiple times :/ )

I don't see any explaination about the lynch method or the mason doubting, both of which are contradictions he's made.

Sure. If that's what you think when you touch yourself at night :p

I would vote for myself if I was scum. Put that in your pipe and smoke it :p

I see posts like this as the response.

So, Empking, BM, and all the other naysayers, there never was no reason for this wagon. There were bandwagon hoppers, and I assure you that I'm aware of them, and if I am wrong about Santos, I'll be looking their direction too (and you all should look my way). But I do not think that Santos's actions have been pro-town, and I have already given my reasons several times.

[Save The Dragons]

FOS: Moses

.

Sounds like you're more sure of oEJo than Santos, considering he's likely to be scum in your eyes regardless of Santos's alignment. So why not vote him?

Goddamnit. The Santos wagon is riddled with scum.

ZTR, HP [leaves], oEJo, Moses, even armlx blipped my radar for something minor.

My partner can come and reveal himself when he wants.

Sup. I was like, "WHOA WHAT THE HECK DID YOU JUST DO" at first...but then I realized it was a breadcrumb, and I was like, "Oh. cool."

Hp and I are neighbors

.

There would be no S1-S1 or S2-S2 neighbor groups. And fakeclaiming masons on day 1 is really bad, especially considering they know one of the two can be killed. Especially without foreknowledge of other pairs.

[Save The Dragons]

I still maintain that I was the first of these 3 claimed masons to actually come forth with an actual role name.

October 16th:

I agree with Santos' idea to delay the choice of method.

unvote

I also

unvote

and

vote: moses

because I'm thinking he's trying too hard and pointing out ideas is a

neighbor's

duty.

October 19th:

'Neighbor'

All in all, looking at the Santos wagoning, it seems both scum driven, as well as town driven.

This, but

Santos seems town to me, especially given with his meta.

Not this.

How do you deduce he's town from his metaless meta?

I get the general sense of newbie cluelessness.

That's not no meta, that's a specific meta. What's your point with the no meta thing?

Socio: Who do you suggest as scum then?

STD.

I KNEW IT!

K, seriously...now that you've danced around this for a couple of posts, care to explain why?

BM: Sorry about this, but can you point out any post again where you explain why gun is preferred to rope?

[Save The Dragons]

it's logical to assume that he must have been named to you in your role.

How can you be so sure about what he said that allows you to think he must have armlx in his PM? You seriously think he couldn't

a) be making shit up
b) have misread something <===this is my pick right now.
c) have received information pre game from the mod
d) have picked up a meta tell
e) be reading too much into BM's mention of armlx's name.

This is before I actually claimed what my role was, but I figured Neighbor is a relatively vanilla role that others might has as well. What would I have misread? You have the same info about someone in your own role PM that should make you suspicious of them (even if you are scum, but especially if you are town).

Uh...this statement is true regardless of my role. I don't know yours, so I don't know what exactly why you're talking about armlx. I could assume that you were a neighbor, but that doesn't mean I should, and neither should Sineish.

It sounds like you were pushing me to reveal myself here. Not cool - I was waiting for armlx to commit either way to whether he has me named in his role PM and whether I was described as unconfirmed.

Once again, I don't know what you know.

You were suspicious of armlx.
I was saying that I would not be if you just said nothing.
I was not pushing you to reveal because I had no idea what you had on armlx. Maybe I could have guessed that you had the same role I did, but again, that doesn't mean that I should, or that I did.

This is your only communication with your mason partner before he claimed.

And this is important...why? I don't see why I need to be in direct contact with my partner all the time...I can talk to him at night.

What?? This really bothers me. How could it possibly say his buddy was confirmed? You have the same role info as me and armlx. It just sounds like you were trying too hard to get Santos nailed.

Wow, it's so interesting that if you take things out of context and make no attempt to understand them, they look scummy!

Of course I didn't think that his role pm said that. My point is that Santos was trying to use that AGAINST YOU GUYS. He was attacking you based on information he should have known was FALSE. That is bad.

This. Even if a partner does come out, I'm sold.

Confirm vote: Santos

die scum die.

Huh? Again, just reads of trying too hard.

So if I think someone is scum, after giving evidence to this fact, I can't just abreviate my clearly stated beliefs?

How do you know this? Are you sure scum can be both Neighbor and another role name? Only if you were scum yourself could you know this.

Wait, what the heck? What does this even mean?

All I said was that someone could be neighbor and scum, which is not a belief that is exclusive to myself.

And yet, while you accuse Santos of obfuscating armlx's and my own role claim, you are guilty of doing similar things.

Um, not really. You took what I said and twisted it. All I was doing was accusing him of attacking you.

When were you planning to reveal this info, if at all? Did you think it was anti-town to reveal it?

When it became relevent.

[Save The Dragons]

Wait...look, CarnCarn.

I would be a complete idiot to fakeclaim neighbor.

Are you accusing me of fakeclaiming neighbor as scum? Because there's absolutely no reason why a neighbor couldn't be scum.

Even if I were scum, I would not lie about this because it's a null tell. I've seen scum masons before. I've been a scum mason before. It happens in games.

Scum also can't communicate before day, so they wouldn't really know to do a neighbor ploy, especially spontaneously during the day.

Do not treat the neighbors as cleared. If you've noticed, we've been discussing scenarios where the neighbors are potentially scum (in fact, I think you used that in your argument against me).

So...what exactly are you getting at?

[Save The Dragons]

You sure of that?

And here's where I defy you to show me a game where scum could talk pre-game with no night 1.

Unvote: whoever

Unvote: Rope

Vote: Save the Dragons

Vote: Gun

I

really

like how someone finally compiled some evidence against this guy; not to mention it makes loads of sense now that he was leading the town to get me lynched.

I really like how this makes it look like you couldn't. And that you missed the fact that the only person to actually provide evidence retracted your vote.

Seriously. Why. are. you. not. dead.

Well, Save the Dragons has seemed the most hostile towards me out of anyone, but it will probably be argued that its just an 'OMGUS' vote.

Actually, I'm curious as to why you think hostility is scummy.

When CarnCarn made his points earlier, I agreed with those and probably will not change my vote at this time.

...I was under the impression that he made a lot of those points under a false assumption.

I'm sorry dude, but you fail to impress me.

[Save The Dragons]

Yeah, scum talking pre-game isn't that unusual.

No, I think it's more often than not the scum are prevented from talking pre-game. I will admit there are exceptions, but I feel we're getting off topic here.

oh noes, i can't impress you!

No offense to Carncarn, but his argument was crap. You're blindly following an argument that has been refuted.

Save the Dragons just sounds really annoyed that I am not dead yet. What could be more suspect?

Your play.

I'm annoyed you aren't dead because I think you're scum and I want scum to die because I like to win the game, not lose it. Really, Santos, come back with some real evidence.

I find in interesting that as soon as I utter a name, that others jump upon him.

I find it interesting that you spit out my name, but have yet to give a case against me...

Socio: I find it interesting you still haven't provided reasoning.

DAMNIT! You beat me to it.

FoS: Socio

, until he explains why.

You should FOS yourself, since I don't see anything stellar coming my way from you.

[Save The Dragons]

Damn. *eats slice of humble pie.*

I think you guys missed the post where the mod prevented that from actually happening.

Now that the mod has confirmed that Santos was town, I do agree that the fact that oEJo did not know this does make him scum.

It says in the role PM that the neighbor does not know the other person's alignment. The issue is whether oEJo has a different win condition in his role, since he missed it in Santos's.

They have to know the role of somebody too before their kill will count. With oEJo they know exactly what his role is.

...which increases the chances that anyone else the target will be town. Armed with the knowledge that if we keep a scum alive indefinitely, we'll have to take them out eventually, I think it's not a good idea to leave anyone alive if we think they're scum.

Oh, and...if BM wants to vote oEJo, he's going to have to lynch him.

Vote: oEJo