Mafia 86 - mafia.gif - Game Over!

[armlx]

Yeah, what Tar said on the other 2.

[populartajo]

poptajo: Horrible Sierra vote + really bad vanilla claim + defending Stef w/ newbie card

1. I explained my vote on Sierra. Its not horrible. I explained that the things he suspected arent scumtells.
2. My vanilla claim was because I was bored and I wanted to generate discussion. Null tell, IMO.
3. I didnt defend Stef. All I am asking is why are people so sure about scumtells. Yes, I know they are indicative of more probable alignment, but didnt I just say that this guy could be inexperienced?
My question is why CANT he be a newbie? Im not saying he is not scum. My point is why are people so sure of his allignment in page 6? This may be related with experience with scumtells and such but I just watched three games in a row where a dumb townie was lynched because he was full of scumtells.

FOS : Thar and Armlx.

They should know this.

[armlx]

2. My vanilla claim was because I was bored and I wanted to generate discussion. Null tell, IMO.

No, it was 100% anti-town at the least, and I don't see any reason its also not scummy.

1. I explained my vote on Sierra. Its not horrible. I explained that the things he suspected arent scumtells.

You said that, you didn't explain how they aren't.

3. I didnt defend Stef. All I am asking is why are people so sure about scumtells. Yes, I know they are indicative of more probable alignment, but didnt I just say that this guy could be inexperienced?

And I said I would expect that kind of reaction even more from someone who is less experienced. Didn't you say earlier you weren't using the "too newbie to be scum" excuse?

[populartajo]

My question is why CANT he be a newbie? Im not saying he is not scum. My point is why are people so sure of his allignment in page 6? This may be related with experience with scumtells and such but I just watched three games in a row where a dumb townie was lynched because he was full of scumtells.

[armlx]

He can be a newbie. He can also be newbie scum.

[skitzer]

armlx: I'm agreeing with Cybele here about the vote, and if the voted feels this way, then I don't think it's anything to worry about.

Rush: If your speaking about this Mafia day, then you better get used to it, because I'd say we still have another 2-3 weeks left in the day. If you are talking about real-life days, those comments really aren't appreciated unless the cause you to have Limited Access.

armlx in 123: that comma on the end...seems like you had more to say.

Sierra: I'm not sure pressure on Stef is really the best thing. It seems like he'll just crack into more newbie antics, which really bugs me. Also, I don't think you needed to place a vote on Seraphim until the random voting was completely finished and we had something to suspect.

Ku_F: the fake sarcasm tags seem as though you are trying to cover all your bases. I'm not sure what to think of it though.

Stef: Sadly, people on this site are commonly insulted, and it is usually worse than "dumb". You'll learn to adapt.

ShadowGirl: In relation to the above, you know what your saying when you talk about avatars.

Tarhalindur: What is stopping you from FoSing Empking? His vote had way less reason than populartajo did.

armlx in 172: So wouldn't it make more sense to go after Stef and then if he turns up scum, then look at populartajo? Or are you just noting this for later?

The most convincing case I'm seeing is populartajo, even without the defending of Stef being calculated into it. It's not very powerful, and I could also see Ku_F as suspicious from what little she has posted.

[armlx]

armlx in 172: So wouldn't it make more sense to go after Stef and then if he turns up scum, then look at populartajo? Or are you just noting this for later?

Noting for later. See where my vote still is

armlx in 123: that comma on the end...seems like you had more to say.

No, just a typo.

armlx: I'm agreeing with Cybele here about the vote, and if the voted feels this way, then I don't think it's anything to worry about.

Who is "the" voted referring to? CKD or Cybele? If the former, I'm pretty sure he agrees with me....

[skitzer]

Neither, armlx, I was referring to myself, for I was voted by Cybele.

[armlx]

Ok. How does you not caring about it make it less of an issue?

[skitzer]

It doesn't feel like that big of an issure to me in the first place.

[Tarhalindur]

poptajo: Horrible Sierra vote + really bad vanilla claim + defending Stef w/ newbie card

1. I explained my vote on Sierra. Its not horrible. I explained that the things he suspected arent scumtells.

Perhaps I misspoke when I referred to your vote on Sierra as horrible. The more appropriate phrasing would be "scummy as all hell", and this is BECAUSE of the explanation you provided (which, as far as I can tell, fundamentally amounted to "I want to hop on to this bandwagon".

2. My vanilla claim was because I was bored and I wanted to generate discussion. Null tell, IMO.

Just because you are bored does not mean you should do things that are detrimental to the town. Next question?

3. I didnt defend Stef. All I am asking is why are people so sure about scumtells. Yes, I know they are indicative of more probable alignment, but didnt I just say that this guy could be inexperienced?

OBJECTION! Your asking why people were so sure about scumtells IS defending Stef by using the newbie card (you are trying to blunt other players' attacks on Stef). Your attempt to spin/disguise it otherwise is noteworthy.

Also, just because someone is a newb doesn't mean that I am going to refrain from calling them out when they act like scum.

My question is why CANT he be a newbie? Im not saying he is not scum. My point is why are people so sure of his allignment in page 6? This may be related with experience with scumtells and such but I just watched three games in a row where a dumb townie was lynched because he was full of scumtells.

FOS : Thar and Armlx.

They should know this.

First: as previously noted, just because someone is new doesn't mean we should ignore them when they act like scum.

Second: I can't be sure about Stef's alignment. The fact remains that Stef is, with the information currently available, one of the players I think is MOST LIKELY to be scum - which is exactly the criterion I use to pressure/FoS/vote in a Mafia game.

Third: Your attempt to inject WIFOM into scumtells is noted. As for your anecdote: If townies are getting lynched for committing lots of scumtells, then that means that townies are getting lynched

FOR BEING SCUMMY

. The solution to this problem is not to excuse players who commit scumtells - the solution is to get townies to STOP MAKING SCUMTELLS.

Now, thank you for making it very clear where the scum in populartajo/Sierra is.

Vote: populartajo

[Tarhalindur]

<snip>

Tarhalindur: What is stopping you from FoSing Empking? His vote had way less reason than populartajo did.

<snip>

Two closely related factors: 1) there are bigger fish to fry (read: poptajo), and 2) at the moment I'm only FoS'ing players who I am likely to vote in the near future (Empking is nowhere near as scummy as tajo or Stef are right now, IMO.)

Now, skitzer: Who do you think is most likely to be scum at this time, and why? (Please note that "most convincing case I'm seeing" doesn't cut it for me - I want to see you make your own case here.)

[Haschel Cedricson]

Woo, promising reread and post later today before this thread explodes.

[skitzer]

I'm still looking for one that's worth voting for. None of them have branched out quite enough for me yet. I'm going to keep a close eye on Ku_F, as I said before.

[massive]

My favorite part came when tajo defended against his random out-of-the-blue role claim by informing us that it was actually a null tell. I wish I had that "these aren't the droids you're looking for" power. Or, at least, if I was tajo, I'd wish I had one that worked.

vote populartajo

[Rush]

What is a vanilla claim and what does FOS stand for?

[curiouskarmadog]

vanilla townie, townie with no powers

FOS = Finger of Suspicion

[curiouskarmadog]

Pop, I have seen you active and participate in a game.

if you really are a vanilla townie....your claim is a poor play and anti-town and an all around let down.

[armlx]

I am strongly considering moving my vote to PT for momentum reasons, plus how much worse the townie claim looks every time I think about it.

[ShadowGirl]

Unvote.

Since my vote on Seraphim was placed during the random vote stage and we are past that now.

He can be a newbie. He can also be newbie scum.

QFT. If he's town and playing scummy, then we should call him on it. We learn from our mistakes, and if we just let it slide he's never going to learn.

@Skitzer: Ha ha, yes indeed. Though, I suppose if he's not used to that sort of thing that it isn't that strange for him to be a tad hostile.

Anyway, I'm taking Tajo's 'vanilla claim' and Seraphim not wanting to participate in random voting as null tells, as is Stef's joking statement of wanting to be lynched or a very weak scumtell.

Still, I find Tajo defending him rather odd and slightly scummy.

[armlx]

I'm interested in why you view Tajo's claim as a null tell.

[populartajo]

Regarding my vanilla claim.
This isnt WIFOM. Its common sense. If I were scum, why would I bring unnecessary attention to myself with that claim? I WAS BORED. I hate the random stage. I wanted discussion. Yes, its antitown but it doesnt suggest allignment in the context it was used : random stage. Thats why its null.
I dont have problems when people attack me but please, think before you post.

Regarding Stef's case.
The only thing Im saying is that since he's a newbie then he's more prone to make scumtells. I NEVER SAID HE WASNT SCUM. What worries me is that some experienced players think that scumtells are infalible and that they are the ultimate truth and that if I dont agree with them that makes me OBVIOUS scum.
This is the logic used : Stef could be scum, Tajo says he could be a newbie, then Tajo is his scumpartner. WTF??!!
I even said that its like the third time that I see "experienced ones" lynching a newbie townie for being a bag of scumtells. Stef could be scum but ITS TOO EARLY to be so sure about that.
Thar and Armlx are taking this argument further than Id like.

Now look for a better target. Ill analyse reactions later. Kthxbay.

[ShadowGirl]

I'm interested in why you view Tajo's claim as a null tell.

It's random stage, the claim will bring unecessary attention, and it's WIFOM.

[armlx]

This isnt WIFOM.

Orly?

If I were scum, why would I bring unnecessary attention to myself with that claim?

I thought so...

think before you post.

That's kinda the issue here with your claim....

The only thing Im saying is that since he's a newbie then he's more prone to make scumtells.

They still are scum tells, and you can't assume everything is a newbie slip.

This is the logic used : Stef could be scum, Tajo says

he could be a newbie

he isn't scummy and its just newbie behavior, then Tajo is his scumpartner. WTF??!!

Fixed.

Stef could be scum but ITS TOO EARLY to be so sure about that.

I'm interested what makes this wagon so different from a normal page 6 wagon, where you call someone scum and vote on it.

Thar and Armlx are taking this argument further than Id like.

How far would you want to take it? Only to the point where you say something, then no one can respond?

Now look for a better target.

Uhhh.... yeah...... about that......

[Sierra]

To answer some questions directed at me:

By not participating in the random voting phase you are denying other players from getting any kind of read on you. Just because someone doesn't like that stage of the game, doesn't mean he should be allowed to get off not participating in it.

So, its sort of a lurking scumtell, you're saying? Do you find lurkers are more often scum?

In short: yes and yes.

By not participating in the random voting phase you are denying other players from getting any kind of read on you. Just because someone doesn't like that stage of the game, doesn't mean he should be allowed to get off not participating in it.

I didn't place a random vote... why isn't that suspicious?

Checking back, there are actually several others who didn't vote or only posted once in the random voting stage. Seraphim got my vote, because he happened to be the one who caught my eye and because he gave a reason for not contributing that I didn't agree with.

1) Please phrase your questions better. It's not so much that I don't like your sentence as that I find said sentence very, very scummy.

2) What is so scummy about your sentence? That would be your approval of the Stef wagon without actually placing a vote or FoS on him. It gave me the strong impression that you were trying to push along a wagon without actually committing to said wagon, which I generally find to be a sign of scum who either don't want to be tied to a bad wagon or scum who don't want to draw the attention of a well-known town player.

I see how you could interpret it as such. The reason for me supporting the pressure on Stef but voting and FOSsing other players, was because I don't think it's a good idea to focus the entirety of the town's attention on one person. At that moment, the lead on Stef was the only lead that was being pursued, while I found Seraphim and Tajo also deserved some of that attention. That's why I didn't vote Stef.


I notice that Stef's posting doesn't look newbish at all. Stef, if you don't mind me asking: how much experience do you have with mafia on other forums?