Read Your Role Mafia - Game Over

[Yaw]

May as well start this off.

Vote: forbiddanlight

. Nice kitty.

[Yaw]

Sigh. It's

Code: Select all

[dice]1d6[/dice]

(That's for one d6.) Not that you actually need it to vote for someone arbitrarily.

[Yaw]

Oh, so you didn't

really

want to play in a game with me, Sens?

[Yaw]

I think he's reiterating the subtle point that you can't lynch the mod in this game.

[Yaw]

I wonder if the mafia can recruit.

Bit of an odd thing to be wondering, isn't it? You know, given the posted role PMs and who our mod is.

[Yaw]

What is this recruitment people keep bringing up? This is Jellymod we're talking about. I don't expect him to be a hypocrite.

[Yaw]

Future note: If someone ever dies in forbiddanlight's first post, she should be considered a day SK.

[Yaw]

Indeed. Where is Natirasha? Might be a bit early, but maybe he needs a prod?

Mod Note: Natirasha has been prodded.

[Yaw]

I didn't see anything about Natirasha being on LA. I just checked through all his posts for the past little while (last one on the site was yesterday, for the record), plus the V/LA thread. It may be that he hasn't noticed we've started yet, but there's no announcement indicating he isn't able to participate.

[Yaw]

I haven't played for a while. (Since before Natirasha joined.) Someone want to fill me in on the whole Natirasha thing?

[Yaw]

Ok, we're on page 4 and nobody's really given me an excuse yet. Who are we bandwagoning? I sort of hate bandwagoning entirely at random, but we're almost at that point.

[Yaw]

So Natirasha has Ultima Avalon disease. I don't see that getting us anywhere.

[Yaw]

Wait. So Natirasha says that he's always anti-town? Why shouldn't we be voting for him again?

[Yaw]

I'm not a fan of policy lynches in general, but I'm also not seeing any bandwagons happening. We need a bandwagon

somewhere

, otherwise we aren't going to have any information to scumhunt with.

[Yaw]

I didn't say I wanted a policy lynch either. Just that we needed a bandwagon somewhere.

That said, Sens has done absolutely nothing to convince me of his alignment one way or the other, so being "fairly sure" he's town is way premature.

Unvote

,

Vote: charter

[Yaw]

Charter is a good wagon. It needs more people.

[Yaw]

The reason why I think Sens is town is the way he's arguing about completely pointless things (in my opinion) which he did against scum in another game I was in with him.

1 -- Arguing about completely pointless things for too long is what was stopping us from getting a good bandwagon going, and actually heading into the scumhunting phase. It isn't necessarily a good thing.

2 -- How many games have you played with Sens? Enough to determine that this is a consistent town meta from him? Have you played games in which he was scum, in which he established a consistent scum meta of the opposite? Why is Sens having done something once in the past sufficient evidence to strongly believe he's town on page 5 of a game in which nothing had happened?

[Yaw]

Pretty much.

I really don't see the ooba-wagon. I mean, I figured out what ooba was doing without needing to be drawn a road map. I don't get why others had issues. I also find it rather suspicious that the ooba-wagon formed right after the first bandwagon of the game was starting to get going, and seems to have sucked off any momentum.

FOS: wolframnhart

for that.

[Yaw]

So you are upset that I had a problem with ooba's voting methods and took away from a wagon that you wanted to happen? And how was it the first band wagon? Wouldn't you call the first band wagon Nat's, then charter, then ooba?

Two votes do not make a bandwagon, and there were only ever two votes on Natirasha at one time. Concurrently, there were also two votes on Sens, and a variety of others (including myself) had two votes on them due to random voting. So no, Natirasha was certainly not the first bandwagon, and given Natirasha's consistency in voting for himself, a bandwagon on him at that time had little merit. The charter-wagon is the first bandwagon of the game that is based on anything approaching evidence.

My actual concern isn't that another bandwagon happened. It's that it occurred right after the fourth vote, at the point when the charter-wagon could actually be called a bandwagon, and was directed at ooba for...well, voting. (What did you really expect him to say? Two people had already explained why what charter said was suspicious, and it was based on one sentence. Do you really expect everyone voting on a bandwagon to repeat the same evidence over and over?) Given the timing and lack of justification for the ooba-wagon, I could see it as an attempt to deliberately derail the charter-wagon. If so, that is definitely suspicious.

[Yaw]

MafiaSSK -- Please don't make us read other minis to try to figure out what you personally saw. Summarize or quote whatever it is you want to add. (Except if the game's still running, in which case...probably shouldn't have been mentioned in the first place.)

[Yaw]

Let's see here, why have we stalled...

Caboose -- 17 posts, last post yesterday
charter -- 7 posts, last post yesterday
Electra -- 2 posts, last post yesterday
forbiddanlight -- 24 posts, last post yesterday
MafiaSSK -- 8 posts, last post yesterday
Natirasha -- 6 posts, last post yesterday
ooba -- 8 posts, last post yesterday
RandomGem -- 4 posts, last post Sunday
SensFan -- 15 posts, last post yesterday
Seraphim -- 4 posts, last post Sunday
ShadowGirl -- 9 posts, last post yesterday
SocioPath -- 2 posts, last post Sunday
wolframnhart -- 19 posts, last post yesterday
Yaw -- 20 posts, last post yesterday (before this one, obv)

Which means, surprisingly, we don't need prods. That said, there's a lot of people (Electra, RandomGem, Seraphim, SocioPath most severely) that need to start contributing a lot more. Either support the charter-wagon, support the ooba-wagon (I'd personally prefer this option accompany more logic for the wagon), or start another one. Do something productive.

[Yaw]

So what is the point of those again?

What's the point of which? The list? We hadn't had a post in around 21 hours, so I wanted to see who was lurking and how severely. Partially to call out those who weren't helping us find scum, and partially to see if we needed prods on anyone. If I'm going to figure out who is lurking, I prefer statistics.

[Yaw]

OMG! Seraphim just changed his vote! He must be scum!

Seriously, anyone want to explain how what ooba did is any different from that? I've been far more bandwagon-hoppy on day 1s in the past as town than ooba's been here. I really think you guys are reaching with this argument.

The reason what charter did is scummy is that it suggests he may have more information than he ought to. What ooba did suggests he wants a bandwagon. The two aren't in the same league. Ooba may be scum, but someone needs to come up with a legitimate argument if that's the case.

[Yaw]

This was a hypothetical example where I voted for Seraphim to show what indecisiveness in voting reasons actually meant ..

Initially stated reason : "I'm voting for him cause he qualifies everything with a j/k"

5 posts later : "The reason i voted for him was because he made stretching attacks on me"

So you are esentially defending yourself by making up things about yourself that didn't happen in order to theorhetically prove how you would act if what you are being accused of was true?

...does that mean you are only hypothetically defending yourself as well then?

As opposed to providing anything real and useful?

Just curious.

This might just be the clumsiest railroading attempt I've ever seen.

FOS: SocioPath

[Yaw]

v.

rail·road·ed, rail·road·ing, rail·roads

3.

Informal

a. To rush or push (something) through quickly in order to prevent careful consideration and possible criticism or obstruction:

railroad a special-interest bill through Congress

.
b. To convict (an accused person) without a fair trial or on trumped-up charges.

Or in internet speak: NO U

[Yaw]

I actually find SSK's read irrelevant to my vote. The only people so far referencing it as a rationale are Electra and SSK himself. (That said, I do think they are materially different, but I'll let Electra and SSK speak for themselves before explaining why I do.)

I also want to note that the deadline is about a week and a half off, so we need more posting from people. We're showing signs of stalling, which is a very bad thing.

[Yaw]

Just so nobody else is shocked, this game has fixed deadlines. The date is in the opening post of the game. So for today, the deadline is October 22, which is the Wednesday after next (a bit more than a week and a half away). The deadline time is also listed in the same location. You're welcome.

[Yaw]

So you want us to stall? I haven't seen any significant contribution from you yet.

[Yaw]

Well, my hope in bringing the deadline up was that it would get people posting more. It seems we have little spits of a few posts, and then nothing for almost a day. So in Natirasha's post I saw not only, "Don't worry about the deadline," (ideally true -- I'd rather us lynch legitimately without running into the deadline) but also, "There's no urgency to post" (which I have a problem with). Combined with the fact that he has yet to actually contribute anything, and that his post contributed nothing besides what might be interpreted as a lame rationalization of his contributing nothing, I felt it was worth calling him out.

[Yaw]

Did I ever say "There's no urgency to post". This game is boring. I don't pay as much attention to boring games.

That post pisses me off.

Join the club. If we agree on nothing else for a lynch today, I'm not averse to putting Natirasha out of his misery. Gets rid of a lurker, and I don't like that he's so blatant about not being willing to live up to the basic commitment of contributing to the games he's signed up for.

(And really, boring? Natirasha, you haven't in any way tried to make things more interesting for yourself. It's one thing to not be able to do it alone. It's quite another not to even make the attempt, and then blame everyone else. You're doing the latter.)

[Yaw]

I think that the supposed attack on Nat for "no urgency to post" is bull.

I meant this less as an attack, and more as motivation to try to get Natirasha to actually post content. Right now I'm more in the Caboose camp of just being really pissed off at Natirasha's behaviour. I don't think it's necessarily indicative of scum. I

do

think it's indicative of someone who is wasting a spot that would be better used by someone who intends to play the games they sign up for.

[Yaw]

This is why I want SSK to get here and answer the questions asked of him already. I can't answer how this is a case against charter until he does, because it risks tainting SSK's responses. (That is, his responses may indicate scumminess/town-ness, and if I let him piggyback on my responses that's less likely to happen.) I do promise I'll explain why I consider this to be a case for scum as soon as I'm able to.

For reference, the major question asked of SSK is:

Let me get this straight. So my meta read on Sens is that he is town, and using that is scummy. MafiaSSK's meta read on me is that I am scum, and using that is the best course of action? How is the situation any different?

Otherwise, several people have requested that he be more specific about his meta on charter.

[Yaw]

All day with no posting makes Yaw something something...

[Yaw]

Oh, I know we're waiting on SSK. I just don't like it when it's up to one person to give answers, and that person decides to dick off for a few days. It's inconsiderate. (Especially when I took the trouble to copy the questions for him onto this page, so he wouldn't have to go back and catch up on things. And

especially

when he's still around the board posting in other areas.)

[Yaw]

You don't have to read. You just have to answer two things:

1 -- Provide specifics on what you meant by charter's meta.

2 -- Explain how your use of meta on charter is different from his use of meta on Sensfan, if you believe these uses are different.

You can read for other stuff afterwards.

[Yaw]

While true, SSK's only posted 11 times this entire game. So it's not like he suddenly decided to lurk when people asked him for clarification. He's been a lurker all along.

I could see voting him for lurking, but I feel it would be a pissed off vote more than anything else right now. (That said, I do appreciate him having votes for pressure to get off his ass.) I'll probably give him the rest of the day and switch then if I have to.

[Yaw]

Aww, be quiet. I lurk a lot of day ones.

Contrary to your apparent belief, that doesn't excuse your behaviour. Neither does it in any way serve the town. I'm quite willing to lynch you if you don't get off your ass and start contributing. I suspect others would do the same.

(Yes, I'm also willing to vote for SSK for his lurking, but the wagon's already at lynch-2 so it's time for him to defend himself anyway.)

[Yaw]

I'm still at, "That was what we waited for?" Feh.

Anyway, looking back at what started this:

A Sens wagon would be dumb, he is town I am fairly sure.

Here's the issue -- it's day 1 and we haven't had a night. That means that the only people who have the slightest idea who might be scum or town are those with role information that allow them to deduce such things. In other words, scum (slight possibility of actual masons who are told members of their group are innocent, but we don't see those as much anymore). So when charter is expressing little doubt that Sens is town so early in the game, it sets off alarm bells that he knows something he wouldn't as a pro-town player. Hence, fully-justified bandwagon.

The reason SSK's meta idea doesn't go the other way is because scum wouldn't know who other scum are in other groups because of role information. Which means either SSK was scum trying to bus a partner (unlikely since there were two competing wagons going at the time), or thought he saw something (for some bizarre reason I don't pretend to understand). There's a slight chance he's scum bringing up random crap to try to push a bandwagon on town, but I'd expect a less inept job of justifying the vote in this case.

In short, yes, still in favour of at least pushing charter.

As for No Lynch, Electra's part of the old crowd, back when games started at night as the gods ordained. I can remember reading a game back then in which the town voted to no lynch during a day start on purpose just to set the game back to its normal day-night cycle. Now, I'm personally more in favour of using the time we have to try to nab scum, but I will admit that if we don't lynch today it doesn't create an unrecoverable scenario. It's suboptimal, but not the worst possible outcome ever.

[Yaw]

I'd be a bit wary of that last bit about revealing special notes. It seems to get a bit close to the "modquoting" wire. It'd have to be handled very carefully. (It's not that I'm against it, I just don't want anyone getting accidentally modkilled.)

[Yaw]

It wouldn't be any harder than someone who claims 'townie' without quoting it word for word. Besides if they were about to be lynched anyways, then wouldn't the end effect be the same?

I'm talking solely about people we know are going to be lynched.

Looking over the opening post, it seems to be a bit of a grey area (paraphrasing is allowed, but special notes are never revealed, plus there's probably a bit of question as to how far away from quoting you can get while trying to give purely mechanical data -- this going by the sample PMs). Asking Jelly about the boundaries before revealing special notes is probably a good idea.

Using modkills as a mechanic for your advantage should

never

be considered.

Also, getting someone to lynch-2 or 1 shouldn't necessarily be considered as knowing that person is going to be lynched. I'd expect any player to defend themselves as well as they can up until the point where they are dead. (If special note information factors in the defense, that's understandable.) Reveal during twilight is ethically questionable.

Oh, and if they're a townie, why would their special note be in any way relevant? We have townie special notes in the opening post already. What could a townie special note possibly say that would warrant such emphatic mention?

[Yaw]

So my whole argument write-up gets ignored in favour of "OMG Electra changed her vote!!!!111oneone"? Really? With all due respect, there's more of substance there than there is against Electra.

[Yaw]

Well, the question with respect to SSK is whether what he did shows scum play, or just poor play. There's no question that it's irritating, but that's not really what we should be looking for. The real question is if SSK's responses indicate that he's oblivious to what's going on (poor play), or it his responses indicate that he knows exactly what's going on and is milking the clock to give us less time for discussion before the deadline (arguably scum play). I lean towards the former at the moment, though I can see why others wouldn't. Now, I can see an argument for lynching SSK for lurking, which I have no problem with. If I have to support that to get a lynch to happen, I'm ok with it. I just think that the argument on charter is more solid than an argument regarding lurking.

[Yaw]

Correct. Jellymod said each role has a special note. He did

not

say that each player has an individualized special note. I see no reason to believe that townie PMs have different special notes. Saying that townies

especially

should reveal their special notes if in danger of lynch (which is what SocioPath said) is silly, because townie notes are likely to have the least useful information (since townies have no powers) -- I'd expect them all to be exactly as per the presented sample townie PM or a variation thereof.

[Yaw]

What part of 'EVERY ROLE IN THE GAME has a special note' does the Townie example PM don't you understand?

Sure, cut out the part in which I explain what I'm talking about and then get annoyed at something you took out of context.

Yes, every role in the game has a special note. Now, go back and read the front post, and tell me where it says that every role in the game has a

unique

special note. You can't, because it's not there. Get the point now? Duplicate special notes are possible. They're most likely to happen in the case of townies.

Furthermore, since the special notes given have mechanical implications, and townie roles don't have mechanics that would need to be explained, we can expect that townie special notes would provide us with little useful information.

[Yaw]

Wait a second...something just clicked for me.

Unvote

,

Vote: SocioPath

I'm around 85% sure on this one. Just pull up all his posts and read.

[Yaw]

What? That didn't make sense.

I'm around 85% sure SocioPath is scum. Bandwagon him.

[Yaw]

Sorry, was close to heading off yesterday and just wanted to get something in fast.

For SocioPath, there's...well, a lot of different things. The main one that clicked for me is that he inadvertently dropped some pretty strong hints about his role in the thread. Don't want to get into this too much because it's not 100% scum, but is comparable against a claim and I want to give him a chance to make a mistake when claiming.

When going back with that idea, I noticed first of all his behaviour towards Ooba. Remember that the Ooba-wagon started out right when the charter-wagon was gaining steam. This means that if the charter-wagon was on scum, there's a high probability that scum were driving the opposing wagon. Even if not, SocioPath was by far the most vehement about going after Ooba, going to absurd lengths to try to justify a lynch. His exit strategy looked really weak here, compared to the effort in trying to push the wagon in the first place.

The recent attempt on Electra is also symptomatic of the need to push a bandwagon anywhere, for any reason. Electra was pretty much forced by Seraphim's accusation to bring up WIFOM, which SocioPath jumped on without looking at the context (Electra was actually saying that bringing up no lynch was value neutral, while acknowledging that it's usually seen as scummy). And again he's pushing a wagon heavily, based on nothing.

In short, he's just looking to push a lynch for any reason. His bandwagoning lacks discernment, and he's unwilling to consider evidence that doesn't get his chosen victims lynched. Combine that with the role tells and we have scum.

(And those saying SocioPath should claim without voting for him? Not helpful. Vote.)

[Yaw]

Awesome. Just proves my point more.

MafiaSSK acted terribly anti-town today and if he keeps doing it it will be impossible to win.

This is hysterical. One person causing a stall is not going to make it impossible to win. Besides, what SSK did shows that he was oblivious to what was going on (came in, didn't read the recent messages, posted that he still had to reread, left). He was responding to prods, not to what was happening in the thread. And from having seen SSK in other contexts, this seems to be par for the course with him. So what you're saying in this statement amounts to stating that SSK ought to be a day 1 policy lynch. And if he's a policy lynch, that means that whether or not he's scum doesn't factor into your calculations.

So SSK may be scum, but that doesn't matter to you at all.

[Yaw]

Oh come now. This is Jellymod. Go and look in Mafia Discussion for how many posts he's made about the evils of alignment-switching. So yes, there may be something called a cult, but if so it's highly unlikely to have an alignment-switching mechanic. (I like to refer to this as a CINO -- Cult In Name Only.)

My personal experiance is that with the way I word things, scum jump all over it, and ask me to state, and restate, and restate things again and again of things I've already covered. I got that vibe from ooba, hence my vote.

Care to state where ooba ever "jumped all over you"? As far as I saw, the exact opposite was happening.

The deadline is two days away. A lynch is needed.

A lynch is preferable. That doesn't make it absolutely necessary. Town can still win with a no lynch. If not, this game was poorly designed.

And what was your defense about her no lynch suggestion? Oh thats right, shes an old player from a long long time ago, she thinks differently.

Well I've got news for you. Do you realise WHY shifts in thought occur? Because over time, people draw out and see things that are scummy, and can aling certain actions as being scummy. Maybe things that worked for scum back then perhaps won't WORK FOR SCUM TODAY, because we have a larger knowledge base as far as what scum DO.

Your assumption here is problematic. Yes, metas change. That said, all players can't be expected to change in exactly the same way, or at exactly the same rate. It's foolish to assume that

everyone

has shifted in thought, and that those who haven't are automatically scum.

Evidence? It is a daystart with no known dayroles. There is no evidence, just speculation based on what people say.

False. There is evidence based on what people say. This isn't a game of follow-the-cop. Catching scum has to be based on compiling cases from what they say in thread. It is not pure speculation.

The charter wagon was/is retarded, because its based on a single statement of 'Sens is town'. Statements like that occur all the time. Read in a few more games. Does charter KNOW that Sens is town? Unlikely, but thats just his initial read off of him.

Read in a few more games? Dood. Check my join date. And yes, that statement was definitely sufficient for an initial bandwagon. But you'll note I'm not pushing it anymore, because now I have better evidence on you.

Besides, the the charter-wagon was retarded, what do you call the ooba-wagon?

I'll claim this: if it hasn't been apparent, I'm not a townie.

Well, yeah. Knew that one already. (And you say there's no evidence in thread.)

[Yaw]

Not quite understanding the role you're claiming. What is it you submit to the mod at night, if you want to use the power?

[Yaw]

RandomGem: Well, I did say in the initial posts that people should read through SocioPath's posts for the evidence. I can only assume that those requesting a claim did so. (Either that, or they're really trusting in my judgment, which surprises me a little after the lack of support for a charter-wagon earlier.)

[Yaw]

The point was more that you didn't vote.

My point to RandomGem above was more that I did make a point of at least pointing people at stuff they could read to indicate that SocioPath was scum. So it wasn't that I gave no reason for a SocioPath wagon initially, which is what seemed to be indicated.

[Yaw]

I'm going to try to fit in a reread.

In the meantime, while SSK is a safe lynch for today (either he's a survivor and thus his lynch doesn't hurt us, or he's lying scum), he has posted in other threads that he's V/LA until Friday. I'd advise trying to find scum among the players that are currently around in the meantime, and if we have nothing promising by then we can go with the more obvious lynch.

[Yaw]

Well, one of those deaths last night appears to have been self-inflicted, so I'm not convinced there would be two more deaths. (Read ShadowGirl's role again.)

At any rate, the main purpose in saying that was that I expected to see a big push to lynch SSK right out of the gate, and felt that was rather useless while he isn't around. Apparently I was wrong for thinking that would happen. I agree that SSK shouldn't be living until lylo (and absolutely should not be allowed to

lurk

until lylo), but if he is telling the truth about his role than lynching scum is better than lynching a survivor. That assumes we have a good lead, of course.

[Yaw]

Four factions, right? Couldn't it be Town, Mafia, SSK, ShadowGirl?

I thought that originally too, but upon looking at the opening post, Jellymod says

at least

4. So while ShadowGirl, SSK (if truthful), town, scum does make 4, that doesn't necessarily mean those are the only win conditions in the game. Which is unfortunate -- I was also hoping to do a process of elimination thing.

After deep thinking...I didn't like the Sociopath lynch. After his roleclaim, I quickly backed off. I thought his roleclaim was solid and really have no idea why people continued to vote for him. The case against him was incredibly weak.

I'm still thinking about either voting for Electra or voting for Yaw(who, I believe, started that bandwagon), so...

I want everyone who was on that bandwagon at the end of the day, sans MafiaSSK(Yaw, Caboose, forbiddanlight, SensFan, Electra) to explain their reasoning on their vote on Sociopath.

For the record, I predicted either you or charter would pull this. The essential premise behind going after people because they were on a bandwagon that lynched town is flawed. Wrong != Scum.

As for the rest, the claim was rather weak, and I couldn't figure out a reasonable way I would apply such a thing were I a mod and that claimed role were in my game. Furthermore, a SocioPath lynch, even if wrong, gives us far more information than an SSK lynch would have. SSK just lurked around and didn't say much of anything. He just randomly joined popular bandwagons when forced to come out of the woodwork. Meanwhile, plenty of people were taking positions on SocioPath yesterday, which leaves a lot of good information for us to pick through.

I believe I explained rather thoroughly yesterday why that bandwagon was a valid one to start. If you have any specific questions regarding it, feel free to go back through my explanations and ask based on what's already there. I don't see much point in typing it all up again.

[Yaw]

Good show. You'll note, of course, that you quoted those things completely out of order to make them look bad. SSK claimed Survivor at least

3 pages

after I first accused SocioPath. And yet you're presenting it as if I tried to deflect a wagon after SSK claimed Survivor? Bullshit.

You're also ignoring that I changed

my own bandwagon

on charter to go after SocioPath. And with only a few days to go before deadline. In order to actually get a lynch under those circumstances, I needed to have a really good case to go on.

I had one.

As for whether or not SSK was scummier than SocioPath, that's an entirely subjective argument. Clearly, I wasn't the only person who saw things differently.

[Yaw]

I enjoyed it, if that's what you mean.

Sephiroth and Charter were twigging my scumdar along with SocioPath yesterday, so I don't necessarily disagree. However, I hadn't considered that a pro-town role would be

trying

to act like scum as much as possible, stopping just short of wearing a neon, "Lynch me, I'm scum!" sign. So I'd still rather re-read with newer eyes before coming to a more definite conclusion.

[Yaw]

...Seraphim. I have no idea what I was thinking there. I don't even play FF VII.

So replace Sephiroth with Seraphim and...yeah.

[Yaw]

Might want to change the vote so Jelly isn't confused. heh.

And as for the other question, I wouldn't know if the paraphrasing were true or not. I don't have any inside knowledge of Seraphim's role. I could see it as being valid, and a tactic that scum could have discussed last night. (Which would explain why I'm still alive today, but would also imply newer players as scum if they actually thought they could pull it off through lynching me.)

[Yaw]

Fourthly,

You're also ignoring that I changed my own bandwagon on charter to go after SocioPath.

This is bullshit. You changed your bandwagon to start another bandwagon.

I changed my bandwagon to start another bandwagon with 4 days until deadline, and the game for the most part lagging. So if you're seriously positing that I'm scum for this, you have to explain:
a) why I didn't just push the charter-wagon, which already had some legs,
b) why I thought I could actually get a lynch on SocioPath in only 4 days, and
c) why I would even bother deflecting a wagon off of SSK, were he and I scum together, considering that up to that point he'd been completely and utterly useless.

And if you think the idea in c) is true, I have some bridges to sell you.

I put the two posts next to each other to prove that, despite being caught in a serious lie, no one has accused him of lying yet.

I actually didn't notice this at the time, as it came while the SocioPath-wagon was happening. They are more than 100 posts apart, after all. It's not like anyone pointed out that there was a contradiction before deadline. Since you mention it, I do agree that it's problematic. But again, since SSK is away until Friday, there isn't much point to bandwagoning him until then.

[Yaw]

Some thoughts as I go through.

Still have issues with charter. Yes, there's that original tell. But there's also the nice post while SocioPath was being wagoned in which he says he strongly believes SocioPath is town, and agrees with everything SocioPath has said. (As a side note, what the hell? I find this incredibly hard to believe, if charter actually read SocioPath's posts.) Looks like he could have been setting up the old "I told you so."

There's a few smaller issues with Electra, but added together they aren't enough to say scum...at least not yet. (Also, I find the idea that she thought SSK had to have some value to his meta questionable, unless she's played with him before and in said game SSK proved to be notably insightful.) Just putting it out there because I have an unnatural fear of being nightkilled, and don't want anyone to completely miss out on looking at her if more gets added to the list.

SSK is...either scum, an idiot, or both. Upon rereading, I have serious issues with the way he waffled on his so-called meta on charter. If you go through his posts in isolation it becomes pretty clear -- first he presents his meta as being something reasonably strong, then backs off when finally forced to present what he was seeing, then waffles again with an explanation that that's just how he words things. Seraphim already mentioned the changing claim. I have no problems with lynching him today (though again, best to wait until he's back on Friday before doing it).

With Seraphim, for the most part issues start around the ooba-wagon (where he was one of the ones peddling bullshit arguments). Here he goes from describing ooba's actions as "scummy as hell," to "I'm not saying I have a strong case on [ooba]," to a rather wishy-washy unvote:

As I look on, the case for ooba gets weaker. And weaker. And weaker. I can see some benefit to continuing on with it, but way less than I previously thought.

Also wishy-washy on Electra:

I'm sorry, but given your past record, I just think you may be scum. First, you jump onto two bandwagons, and now you're asking for a no lynch?

My scum-dar is going nuts.

Unlike charter, it doesn't look like Seraphim set up an "I told you so" yesterday. That said, he's definitely trying to take advantage of the mislynch today.

Those are the main things. So yeah, there's enough to go after either charter, Seraphim, or SSK. With SSK out until Friday, Seraphim looks to be where it's at.

Vote: Seraphim

[Yaw]

I'm not saying you're scum, I'm saying that you can't use that argument to argue that you're not scum. Scum can change wagons too.

While true, at best this is a null tell. Considering you were on the ooba-wagon yesterday, which was based entirely on the idea that ooba had to be scum since he was changing wagons...

At any rate, the point I'm making isn't that I changed wagons. It was that I did so very close to deadline with good reasoning.

Once again, I'm not questioning the original case on SP. You're absolutely correct about that. What I didn't like was

A. How you introduced it.
B. How you didn't back down even though the MafiaSSK case was still salvagable after SP's roleclaim

Well, part of the reason for how I introduced it was that it was getting late when I thought I connected the dots together, and wanted something in fast (as you noticed, the actual explanation was a bit lengthy). Another part is that the main reason I thought SocioPath was scum was that during the conversation we were having about special notes he was effectively claiming that he wasn't a townie. I didn't want to just throw that out there, because I was hoping to catch him lying on that point when he roleclaimed. A day later, I realized I had to give some info about that idea to get people to support a wagon, but up to that point I was rather hoping to get him to claim without giving him extra information to inform a claim. And since I didn't believe the claim, I saw no reason to back down.

Lynching a townie is still lynching a townie. After a game I played on another site, I find it my policy to never, ever lynch a claimed power role on Day 1. Ever. If he's still alive on Day 2, well, then we have a problem. But, for Day 1...no, that's stupid. It's bad play.

Going out of order to address this, since it's related. You've created a meta in which all scum have to do to get a free pass from you on day 1 is claim a power role.

Any

power role. This is a bad thing. Scum

have

to lie about their roles, so you're ensuring that every single day 1 you're either supporting a lynch on a townie or an annoyance role (like a survivor). If you don't grow a pair and start being willing to lynch claimed power roles to some extent, scum are going to take advantage of you.

*shrugs* I have no idea. You could be setting up for a bus on day 2, perhaps. Maybe this is all some contorted Mafia plan?

The problem with this isn't that you're claiming I'm scum. It's that your entire argument is that I'm

inept

scum. That's a rather astonishing claim, and it requires you to actually provide some sort of evidence, especially since anyone looking through my past games would come to a completely different conclusion. You're just throwing mud at the wall to see if it sticks.

I expect people to think I'm scum at some point. My sig is what it is for a reason. But if you're going to make the accusation, I expect you to back it up.

Something rings false with me on this one. I just thought I'd point this out. Why is charter is a better lynch than Electra?

I have two good points on charter. On Electra, I have a sentence fragment I'm not entirely sure how to interpret yet, and overconfidence in SSK. (Incidentally, I think it would be a

very

good idea for her to explain why she thought SSK was trustworthy in this regard. I stand by the point that saying someone is town is different than saying they're scum, but that's a point about what SSK did, not Electra.) Now, if SSK comes up scum, my analysis will probably change.

How the hell was I wishy-washy on her? I changed my bandwagon; isn't that what you did?

To a large extent, I think people don't have a clue what they're talking about when they say something is "wishy-washy". It is

not

about changing votes. It's about being unwilling to fully commit to a vote or other action. A wishy-washy voter tries to have it both ways, so they can go back and point to stuff that suggests either that they really thought the person lynched was scum or town, depending on what makes them look best. For example, you unvoted ooba, but you left the door open for going back that way if the tide turned. You also show yourself to be unsure about voting for Electra in that post I quoted above. That's the part that's scummy.

[Yaw]

Also, since charter slipped his post in while I was typing, can we hold off on going after SSK for a couple of days? He's announced in all his other games that he's V/LA until Friday. There's absolutely no point to bandwagoning a player that's V/LA. When he gets back, we can bandwagon him. (Depending on what happens in the interim, I may very well be supporting that wagon. But it shouldn't be pursued until Friday.)

[Yaw]

I suppose you also took it as a scum cover-up when he said he was trying to get NKed?

Not so much a cover-up as a lie to get out of a lynch. Trying to get nightkilled is sort of WIFOMy to begin with (even if you are town trying this, you're betting on scum taking the bait, which they may well choose not to do, so why bother?) It's also horrible strategy for town to do. If someone's town, they ought to be trying to contribute positively during the day. Trying to breadcrumb yourself into a nightkill only opens you up to having the town string you up for what are effectively lies. Besides, why join games to try to get nightkilled? So yeah, didn't believe him.

And, once again, I'm not sure where I was being wishy-washy on Electra. The post you quoted in your 'above post' (I'm guessing you mean previous), how is that wishy-washy? If it was, it was certainly not intentional.

Ah, but it's the unintentional things that betray the most. Here's the quote again:

I'm sorry, but given your past record,

I just think you may be scum

. First, you jump onto two bandwagons, and now you're asking for a no lynch?

My scum-dar is going nuts

.

Emphasis added. Those two bolded statements don't work together. The first one in particular shows a lack of confidence. Then the second one is very confident. Trying to have it both ways.

[Yaw]

That rephrasing is still wishy-washy. :p

Have you played with SSK before, or read any games he's been in? Would you react similarly if anyone else in this game claimed to have meta information on another player?

[Yaw]

Looks like it's Friday and no other wagons are going anywhere. I already stated support, so...

Unvote

,

Vote: MafiaSSK

[Yaw]

1 -- You changed your role claim from townie to survivor.
2 -- You changed your opinion on the strength of your meta on charter multiple times.

These are the things to explain.

[Yaw]

2- It depended on how far we were in the game.

Which I could accept, if you weren't

always describing the same thing

.

For example:

My meta on Charter says that he is scum.

Fine. I don't have much meta on charter.

It was early on in the game. I didnt think I had to have an extensive meta on him.

I'm certain. That's just the way I word things.

First and last indicate certainty (based on two games you observed where charter was town, not scum -- so by your own admission you have no scum tells on him). Second and third indicate enough uncertainty that it wasn't worth even mentioning a meta reason for your vote at all. In none of these posts are you describing a changing opinion over time -- they're all referring to exactly the same event of you putting a vote on charter for meta reasons.

[Yaw]

I've already said who else I have issues with, so I'm fine with lynching SSK at any point. Though I do like letting forbiddanlight have a chance to post specifics.

Incidentally, in Caboose's post above that quote is from Seraphim, not SSK. Just saying.

Also, though I realize there's unlikely to be much for him to say today, EmpKing absolutely

needs

to contribute tomorrow. There's very little of substance from him so far. Yes, a lot of that is because he was replacing Nat, but he really needs to step up. I can't read anything off of him because there's too little there.

[Yaw]

Yeah, Caboose was owning this game. Good job.

I also really like the cop variant.

Really thought Kinetic had hung himself there by trying to tie his role to mine after Sens had just flipped scum while doing the same thing...