Read Your Role Mafia - Game Over

[Caboose]

I thought SP's roleclaim to be so absurd that I didn't know whether to believe it or not, so I just took it with a grain of salt. And here's Yaw's argument on SP again:

For SocioPath, there's...well, a lot of different things. The main one that clicked for me is that he inadvertently dropped some pretty strong hints about his role in the thread. Don't want to get into this too much because it's not 100% scum, but is comparable against a claim and I want to give him a chance to make a mistake when claiming.

When going back with that idea, I noticed first of all his behaviour towards Ooba. Remember that the Ooba-wagon started out right when the charter-wagon was gaining steam. This means that if the charter-wagon was on scum, there's a high probability that scum were driving the opposing wagon. Even if not, SocioPath was by far the most vehement about going after Ooba, going to absurd lengths to try to justify a lynch. His exit strategy looked really weak here, compared to the effort in trying to push the wagon in the first place.

The recent attempt on Electra is also symptomatic of the need to push a bandwagon anywhere, for any reason. Electra was pretty much forced by Seraphim's accusation to bring up WIFOM, which SocioPath jumped on without looking at the context (Electra was actually saying that bringing up no lynch was value neutral, while acknowledging that it's usually seen as scummy). And again he's pushing a wagon heavily, based on nothing.

In short, he's just looking to push a lynch for any reason. His bandwagoning lacks discernment, and he's unwilling to consider evidence that doesn't get his chosen victims lynched. Combine that with the role tells and we have scum.

[SensFan]

After

he flipped Town

...I d

o

n't like the Sociopath lynch

in hindsight

. After his roleclaim, I quickly backed off

so I would look pro-Town after he flipped.

. I thought his

self-admitted very weak

roleclaim was solid and really have no idea why people continued to vote for him

since I knew he was Town

. The case against him

is a great way to throw a bunch of suspicions

.

I'm still thinking about either voting for Electra or voting for Yaw(who, I believe, started that bandwagon), so

I think I'll wait to seen which of these wagons someone else starts, so I can use this logic on that person tomorrow!

...

I want everyone who was on that bandwagon at the end of the day

(after I unvoted, of course)

, sans MafiaSSK(Yaw, Caboose, forbiddanlight, SensFan, Electra) to explain their reasoning on their vote on Sociopath

so that I can hopefully jump on 2-3 of you or more

.

[forbiddanlight]

To be fair, townies should have no fear explaining reasonings whether they are being called to it by town or scum. Otherwise, I think you have a pretty good point there Sensfan.

[Seraphim]

I have a theory. I think that it's entirely possible that MafiaSSK and Yaw are scumbuddies. Here's the idea:

First of all, the game's first major problem is MafiaSSK's lurking. A lot of people vote for him as the deadline looms ever nearer. They put him at L-1 to put pressure on him. Once we're done waiting for his weak meta, people continue to question him. It's entirely likely that Mafia is today's lynch. Hell, we even catch him in a lie.

I'm a townie. simple as that.

Fine. I'll claim I'm a Survivor. I had basically given up on this game but I guess I shouldn't. Surior should be an easy enough win condition to fulfill

Despite this...despite MafiaSSK's scummy behavior...

Wait a second...something just clicked for me.

Unvote, Vote: SocioPath

I'm around 85% sure on this one. Just pull up all his posts and read.

What? That didn't make sense.

I'm around 85% sure SocioPath is scum. Bandwagon him.

A bandwagon that ends in a townie lynch. Steering away from the much scummier MafiaSSK in an attempt to get a new bandwagon going towards a town player. Then, you force him to roleclaim, something that looks very scummy no matter what, and continue to push for his lynch despite MafiaSSK claiming survivor.

I do believe that the scum, if MafiaSSK is indeed scum, will try to bus him today in order to throw the heat off. I'll vote for MafiaSSK today, but tomorrow...

Depending on whether or not SSK turns up town, I will either vote for Yaw or Electra.

Mod Note: Quote tags fixed.

[Seraphim]

EBWOP: The quote tags didn't work in my last post.

Also, I was cut off. I'm a man of my word. Also, I meant to see whether SSK or Electra flip scum or town.

Vote: Electra

for clear reasons I have stated numerous times.

[Yaw]

Good show. You'll note, of course, that you quoted those things completely out of order to make them look bad. SSK claimed Survivor at least

3 pages

after I first accused SocioPath. And yet you're presenting it as if I tried to deflect a wagon after SSK claimed Survivor? Bullshit.

You're also ignoring that I changed

my own bandwagon

on charter to go after SocioPath. And with only a few days to go before deadline. In order to actually get a lynch under those circumstances, I needed to have a really good case to go on.

I had one.

As for whether or not SSK was scummier than SocioPath, that's an entirely subjective argument. Clearly, I wasn't the only person who saw things differently.

[Electra]

Wow, you think SSK and Yaw are scumbuddies so you vote me? That makes a lot of sense.

[SensFan]

Yaw, can I get at least a yes/no/maybe/comical 4th option out of you in regards to my paraphrasing of Seraphim's post?

[Yaw]

I enjoyed it, if that's what you mean.

Sephiroth and Charter were twigging my scumdar along with SocioPath yesterday, so I don't necessarily disagree. However, I hadn't considered that a pro-town role would be

trying

to act like scum as much as possible, stopping just short of wearing a neon, "Lynch me, I'm scum!" sign. So I'd still rather re-read with newer eyes before coming to a more definite conclusion.

[SensFan]

Do you see it as valid and true, though?

Sephiroth, I noticed you didn't comment on it. Any particular reasons?

Vote: Sephiroth

[forbiddanlight]

umu...who's Sephiroth? This isn't FF VII Mafia y'know .

[Yaw]

...Seraphim. I have no idea what I was thinking there. I don't even play FF VII.

So replace Sephiroth with Seraphim and...yeah.

[SensFan]

I went from Yaw's post

[Yaw]

Might want to change the vote so Jelly isn't confused. heh.

And as for the other question, I wouldn't know if the paraphrasing were true or not. I don't have any inside knowledge of Seraphim's role. I could see it as being valid, and a tactic that scum could have discussed last night. (Which would explain why I'm still alive today, but would also imply newer players as scum if they actually thought they could pull it off through lynching me.)

[Seraphim]

There's a lot of points to address here. And I don't think I'll be able to get at all of them tonight, as I'll probably will retire for the night. If you guys have any other points that you think I should address, please post 'em for me.

First, Sensfan's post(sorry for not replying to you in my first post, as I didn't see until after I posted). I was against the SP lynch from the get-go. I voted for him to get a roleclaim. That was

it

. Once I recieved that, I unvoted.

And just in case you haven't noticed, all the roles are really ridiculous in this game. If the example and the dead are any indicator, some of the roles are really weird. I found SP's claim perfectly acceptable in the context of the game.

Second, those two posts...I lost quite a bit of my post posting that. I copied and pasted it wrong when I had to exit the computer and lost a good chunk of it, which included my attack on Electra. My EBWOP was mostly a mistake on my part.

Thirdly, get my name right. XD I'll admit that you're not the first person to call me that. Trying to lynch the one-winged angel will get us nowhere in this game.

Fourthly,

You're also ignoring that I changed my own bandwagon on charter to go after SocioPath.

This is bullshit. You changed your bandwagon to start another bandwagon.

Fifthly,

As for whether or not SSK was scummier than SocioPath, that's an entirely subjective argument. Clearly, I wasn't the only person who saw things differently.

I'll address my context. My question is, why did no one change their vote? Why did everyone believe MafiaSSK's claim of Survivor and merely started telling him to 'start chasing scum' while continuing to push Sociopath's lynch? I don't get it; only Sensfan seemed to attack him and he didn't even vote. Please, someone explain why SP was a better lynch than MafiaSSK that day. I'll say that Electra was the most solid lynch pre-SP case.

I put the two posts next to each other to prove that, despite being caught in a serious lie, no one has accused him of lying yet. Not even that day was he accused. I wanted an Electra lynch. I still want an Electra lynch. But if MafiaSSK is the better lynch, I will vote for him.

Also, my bad on the vote. That was a typo...

Unvote

Vote: MafiaSSK

Any other points that I will get to tomorrow?

[Yaw]

Fourthly,

You're also ignoring that I changed my own bandwagon on charter to go after SocioPath.

This is bullshit. You changed your bandwagon to start another bandwagon.

I changed my bandwagon to start another bandwagon with 4 days until deadline, and the game for the most part lagging. So if you're seriously positing that I'm scum for this, you have to explain:
a) why I didn't just push the charter-wagon, which already had some legs,
b) why I thought I could actually get a lynch on SocioPath in only 4 days, and
c) why I would even bother deflecting a wagon off of SSK, were he and I scum together, considering that up to that point he'd been completely and utterly useless.

And if you think the idea in c) is true, I have some bridges to sell you.

I put the two posts next to each other to prove that, despite being caught in a serious lie, no one has accused him of lying yet.

I actually didn't notice this at the time, as it came while the SocioPath-wagon was happening. They are more than 100 posts apart, after all. It's not like anyone pointed out that there was a contradiction before deadline. Since you mention it, I do agree that it's problematic. But again, since SSK is away until Friday, there isn't much point to bandwagoning him until then.

[SensFan]

I was against the SP lynch from the get-go. I voted for him to get a roleclaim. That was

it

. Once I recieved that, I unvoted.

And you think the people who stayed on the wagon because they thought he was Scum are scummy?

[petroleumjelly]

Day Two Vote Count #1

1 MafiaSSK (Seraphim)

With

11

alive, it takes

6

to lynch! It will take

4

to lynch at deadline, which is November 10, 9:59 pm CDT.

Not Voting – 10 – Caboose, charter, Electra, Empking, forbiddanlight, MafiaSSK, RandomGem, SensFan, wolframnhart, Yaw

[charter]

After deep thinking...I didn't like the Sociopath lynch. After his roleclaim, I quickly backed off. I thought his roleclaim was solid and really have no idea why people continued to vote for him. The case against him was incredibly weak.

Why are you bringing this up today? When it does absolutely no good? If you actually thought this, you should have brought it up yesterday.

I also find charter suspicious for being very pro-Sociopath near the end of yesterday- he talked about not finding SP suspicious and agreeing with him and such - it would be a mafia thing to do since he knew that SP would turn up townie.

Go back and reread how I pretty consistantly thought he was doing good scumhunting. Not just at the end of the day.

[SensFan]

Whoops,

Vote: Seraphim

[Yaw]

Some thoughts as I go through.

Still have issues with charter. Yes, there's that original tell. But there's also the nice post while SocioPath was being wagoned in which he says he strongly believes SocioPath is town, and agrees with everything SocioPath has said. (As a side note, what the hell? I find this incredibly hard to believe, if charter actually read SocioPath's posts.) Looks like he could have been setting up the old "I told you so."

There's a few smaller issues with Electra, but added together they aren't enough to say scum...at least not yet. (Also, I find the idea that she thought SSK had to have some value to his meta questionable, unless she's played with him before and in said game SSK proved to be notably insightful.) Just putting it out there because I have an unnatural fear of being nightkilled, and don't want anyone to completely miss out on looking at her if more gets added to the list.

SSK is...either scum, an idiot, or both. Upon rereading, I have serious issues with the way he waffled on his so-called meta on charter. If you go through his posts in isolation it becomes pretty clear -- first he presents his meta as being something reasonably strong, then backs off when finally forced to present what he was seeing, then waffles again with an explanation that that's just how he words things. Seraphim already mentioned the changing claim. I have no problems with lynching him today (though again, best to wait until he's back on Friday before doing it).

With Seraphim, for the most part issues start around the ooba-wagon (where he was one of the ones peddling bullshit arguments). Here he goes from describing ooba's actions as "scummy as hell," to "I'm not saying I have a strong case on [ooba]," to a rather wishy-washy unvote:

As I look on, the case for ooba gets weaker. And weaker. And weaker. I can see some benefit to continuing on with it, but way less than I previously thought.

Also wishy-washy on Electra:

I'm sorry, but given your past record, I just think you may be scum. First, you jump onto two bandwagons, and now you're asking for a no lynch?

My scum-dar is going nuts.

Unlike charter, it doesn't look like Seraphim set up an "I told you so" yesterday. That said, he's definitely trying to take advantage of the mislynch today.

Those are the main things. So yeah, there's enough to go after either charter, Seraphim, or SSK. With SSK out until Friday, Seraphim looks to be where it's at.

Vote: Seraphim

[Seraphim]

I changed my bandwagon to start another bandwagon with 4 days until deadline, and the game for the most part lagging. So if you're seriously positing that I'm scum for this, you have to explain:

I'm not saying you're scum, I'm saying that you can't use that argument to argue that you're not scum. Scum can change wagons too.

a) why I didn't just push the charter-wagon, which already had some legs,

Because it didn't? I always thought it was a weak lynch in the first place. Hence my attack on ooba(which I'll get to later).

b) why I thought I could actually get a lynch on SocioPath in only 4 days, and

Once again, I'm not questioning the original case on SP. You're absolutely correct about that. What I didn't like was

A. How you introduced it.
B. How you didn't back down even though the MafiaSSK case was still salvagable after SP's roleclaim

c) why I would even bother deflecting a wagon off of SSK, were he and I scum together, considering that up to that point he'd been completely and utterly useless.

*shrugs* I have no idea. You could be setting up for a bus on day 2, perhaps. Maybe this is all some contorted Mafia plan?

And if you think the idea in c) is true, I have some bridges to sell you.

Oh, really? Which bridges?

Also...

actually didn't notice this at the time, as it came while the SocioPath-wagon was happening. They are more than 100 posts apart, after all. It's not like anyone pointed out that there was a contradiction before deadline. Since you mention it, I do agree that it's problematic. But again, since SSK is away until Friday, there isn't much point to bandwagoning him until then.

Agreed. I am merely proving a point(and unintentionally making a very strong case against MafiaSSK) that no one changed their vote after MafiaSSK claimed survivor. And I'm a little disturbed by that.

Now, Sensfan...

And you think the people who stayed on the wagon because they thought he was Scum are scummy?

I believe it's entirely possible(in fact, very probable) that some/one of the people on the SP lynch are/is scum.

Now, charter...to answer your question...

Lynching a townie is still lynching a townie. After a game I played on another site, I find it my policy to never, ever lynch a claimed power role on Day 1. Ever. If he's still alive on Day 2, well, then we have a problem. But, for Day 1...no, that's stupid. It's bad play.

This was post 396, a bit after Sociopath roleclaimed.

Now...to address Yaw's second post...post 470...

There's a few smaller issues with Electra, but added together they aren't enough to say scum...at least not yet.

Something rings false with me on this one. I just thought I'd point this out. Why is charter is a better lynch than Electra?

Now, for the ooba lynch. Maybe 'scummy as hell was a hyperbole...which I have a tendency to do. Especially in places where I'm relatively new. I really can't use this as meta, I know, but that's the only real defense I have on that. I thought ooba defended himself well...he was a doctor, after all. His actions make sense in that light.

As for Electra...yes, I still believe she is very likely scum. However, for the good of the town, I believe that MafiaSSK should be lynched. How the hell was I wishy-washy on her? I changed my bandwagon; isn't that what you did?

[SensFan]

Now, Sensfan...

And you think the people who stayed on the wagon because they thought he was Scum are scummy?

I believe it's entirely possible(in fact, very probable) that some/one of the people on the SP lynch are/is scum.

You missed my point completely.

You claim that you were on the wagon, but you didn't think SP was Scum, but you wanted a claim. You also claim that the people that were on the wagon because they, you know, thought SP was scummy are scummy.

Do you not see the inherent flaw there?

[Seraphim]

Where did I claim that the people on the SP wagon were scummy? And I joined the wagon for a short period of time for a

claim only

. That was the only reason I voted. Once that reason was fulfilled, I thought that SP's role fit the context of the game and his play. I unvoted.

So, I ask again: where did I claim that the people on the SP wagon were scummy?

[charter]

Some thoughts as I go through.

Still have issues with charter. Yes, there's that original tell. But there's also the nice post while SocioPath was being wagoned in which he says he strongly believes SocioPath is town, and agrees with everything SocioPath has said. (As a side note, what the hell? I find this incredibly hard to believe, if charter actually read SocioPath's posts.) Looks like he could have been setting up the old "I told you so."

When I say I told you so, you can pull this out. I agreed with what SP was saying, hence why I thought he wasn't scum.

Unlike charter, it doesn't look like Seraphim set up an "I told you so" yesterday. That said, he's definitely trying to take advantage of the mislynch today.

He didn't set himself up maybe, but now he's trying to pull it today. However, I don't view it as scummy (I understand that others do).

vote MafiaSSK

because I still think he's scum.