Mafia 86 - mafia.gif - Game Over!

[armlx]

Of those two, I

Vote CKD

[armlx]

Shadowgirl, I would advise against using any avatar Gimbo or an alt of his used.

just sayin.

[armlx]

Unvote, Vote Jebus

Acting like ABR is not a funny thing.

[armlx]

No, Tar, he's easily influenced by ABR. Also a lynchable offense.

[armlx]

Yeah, day start muddles up the whole policy vig plan.

[armlx]

Armlx: Are you scum? Please answer with a sentence containing exactly ten words.

I am not not not not not not not scum.

[armlx]

Jebus, ABR was the original. He did it way back when (by that I mean 2007)

[armlx]

Unvote, Vote Jebus

[armlx]

Unvote, Vote Cybele

What CKD said. Definitely what he said.

[armlx]

As ShadowGirl undid her spell, I'll

unvote.

Instead, I'll

vote CuriousKarmaDog

. What scum (scum used that tell right?) did in a previous game, doesn't mean that some other scum would use it in the same game.

[random]Viva la Women! Loved the post how all of us entered [/random]

The point is its not an actually scummy thing that was attacked.

[armlx]

Actually, the point was it was a joke.

That intent is not visible in the post in question.

[armlx]

massive, why is random voting "bad"?

[armlx]

CKD and armlx: Do you still believe Cybele is suspicious after she said her vote was random? Maybe I should read into this.

Yes, I feel the "Oops, it was random" doesn't fly when you try to give a legit reason.

[armlx]

Again, you posted a "legit" reason for our vote, and tried to back out of it by saying it was a joke.

Not buying it.

[armlx]

How is not voting during the random voting stage a legit reason?

Its not precisely legit, hence my vote on you, but it is often used. In the exact context you did.

[armlx]

Its not a valid reason to vote someone, so yeah, it is scummy.

Do I have empirical evidence to show its a scum tell? No, but it falls under the general category of baseless attacks, which I believe does have evidence.

[armlx]

I agree with EA here, absolutely no reason to claim townie here,

[armlx]

You are all right! I'm scum and i'm trying to get myself lynched. That's way more probable than me Joking.

This is what we call WIFOM. The point is scum mess up all the time. What you are basically saying is your actions are too scummy for you too be scum at this point, and see this thread for that discussion.

[armlx]

Ooba having meta to back this up wins.

Unvote, Vote Stef, FOS Cybele and PT

[armlx]

Actually, the change in smileys is a pretty strong tell.

[armlx]

PT, what are your thoughts on Stef?

[armlx]

Judging by his avatar and his goon status I wouldnt take him so serious until a big big scumtell.

So..... too newbie to be scum?

FOS PT

[armlx]

No, that's actually exactly what you said. You were ignoring a relatively strong scum tell as he is a newbie.

[armlx]

You are all right! I'm scum and i'm trying to get myself lynched. That's way more probable than me Joking.

This is soo wrong ..

Plus although you use a lot of smileys, this is the first time you've used a 'lol' smiley in all your games on MS till now ..

The WIFOM statement followed by a deviation from your normal posting practice leads me to ..

Unvote. Vote : Stef

This.

[armlx]

Why is that a strong scumtell?

It's a straight up example of the second variety of scum tell (first being things that further the scum WC): Being uncomfortable due to being out of the majority and doing unusual, nervous things, especially when under light pressure.

[armlx]

But the comment on your avatar isn't personal... it's just part of the random voting stage.

We are beyond that. PT is trying to make ridiculous points.

[armlx]

One of populartajo and Sierra is scum. I'm just not sure which yet.

This, I'm leaning PT on the back of the claim.

[armlx]

I'm interested, as the main reason I agree was I thought their reaction to the Stef wagon was suspect in the context of Stef being scum.

[armlx]

What are you talking about Tajo?

The case on you basically involves defending Stef for being a newbie when the mistake he made is more likely with newb scum + the claim.

[armlx]

Yeah, what Tar said on the other 2.

[armlx]

2. My vanilla claim was because I was bored and I wanted to generate discussion. Null tell, IMO.

No, it was 100% anti-town at the least, and I don't see any reason its also not scummy.

1. I explained my vote on Sierra. Its not horrible. I explained that the things he suspected arent scumtells.

You said that, you didn't explain how they aren't.

3. I didnt defend Stef. All I am asking is why are people so sure about scumtells. Yes, I know they are indicative of more probable alignment, but didnt I just say that this guy could be inexperienced?

And I said I would expect that kind of reaction even more from someone who is less experienced. Didn't you say earlier you weren't using the "too newbie to be scum" excuse?

[armlx]

He can be a newbie. He can also be newbie scum.

[armlx]

armlx in 172: So wouldn't it make more sense to go after Stef and then if he turns up scum, then look at populartajo? Or are you just noting this for later?

Noting for later. See where my vote still is

armlx in 123: that comma on the end...seems like you had more to say.

No, just a typo.

armlx: I'm agreeing with Cybele here about the vote, and if the voted feels this way, then I don't think it's anything to worry about.

Who is "the" voted referring to? CKD or Cybele? If the former, I'm pretty sure he agrees with me....

[armlx]

Ok. How does you not caring about it make it less of an issue?

[armlx]

I am strongly considering moving my vote to PT for momentum reasons, plus how much worse the townie claim looks every time I think about it.

[armlx]

I'm interested in why you view Tajo's claim as a null tell.

[armlx]

This isnt WIFOM.

Orly?

If I were scum, why would I bring unnecessary attention to myself with that claim?

I thought so...

think before you post.

That's kinda the issue here with your claim....

The only thing Im saying is that since he's a newbie then he's more prone to make scumtells.

They still are scum tells, and you can't assume everything is a newbie slip.

This is the logic used : Stef could be scum, Tajo says

he could be a newbie

he isn't scummy and its just newbie behavior, then Tajo is his scumpartner. WTF??!!

Fixed.

Stef could be scum but ITS TOO EARLY to be so sure about that.

I'm interested what makes this wagon so different from a normal page 6 wagon, where you call someone scum and vote on it.

Thar and Armlx are taking this argument further than Id like.

How far would you want to take it? Only to the point where you say something, then no one can respond?

Now look for a better target.

Uhhh.... yeah...... about that......

[armlx]

Lurking is definitely not a scum tell unless:

A) The person is lurking specifically in that game. Easily checked by looking at their posts on site.

B) The person is "active lurking".

[armlx]

Armlx, is my vanilla claim a scumtell? Is it my disagreement in Stef's situation?

Your vanilla claim is a scum tell. As a pro-town vanilla, you have no reason to claim at that point (some people say ever even).

Its not your disagreement in Stef's situation, its the invalid defense that you at first waffled on even having stated.

[armlx]

24 alive. 13 to lynch.

WE ARE NOT EVEN CLOSE TO A HAMMER.

[armlx]

L-8.

8 votes. That's more then majority in a mini D1.

No where near close.

[armlx]

I was out of the majority because i was uncomfortable? Where was i uncomfortable? Being amused doesn't mean i feel uncomfortable. It means i feel amused. This is overdoing it. According to you i feel uncomfortable and nervous from the pressure put on me. I don't feel any of those things and i actually did nothing to suggest i do.

No, that part of the post is explaining theory more so then in game events. Its talking about how people psycologically react to being scum in a given game.

[armlx]

What Emp said. Both are independently scummy, but their actions become much more so if either flips scum.

[armlx]

Tar, I don't see the CKD thing as chain saw on PT, if anything its for Skitzer. I also feel that tell doesn't really apply in general scenarios like this.

Also,

Unvote, Vote PT

. I want a claim now.

[armlx]

Needs more Tajo lynch. Vanilla claim was a lie, etc etc.

[armlx]

sekinj, that's why I made no comment about the vanilla claim at all pre-claim. I was pretty sure it was a just a slip indicating his first claim was a lie, and just wanted to see if he jumped into it head first.

[armlx]

What about the off chance that he is a doctor? Shouldn't we just let the mafia take care of him? Hn, don't really know what the policy is on PRs in large games.

Mafia won't kill him if he is town. Too easy of a lynch.

[armlx]

Wouldn't mafia need to nk him to get his power out of the way no matter how easy a lynch he seemed?

Or they just let us do the job for them. We aren't just going to assume PT is town at this point.

[armlx]

Sigh, what is it with vanilla townies thinking lying about their role is a good thing these days?

Oh yeah. Stupid ABR.

[armlx]

CKD is right. The whole "Stef is only scummy b/c of PT" statement is a good place to start.

Vote BA

[armlx]

CKD's hammer was not at all too quick. PT was obviously false claiming and needed to be lynched. The fact he was lying townie rather then lying scum doesn't change anything as his lie was 100% anti-town.

TSN: It probably does imply that.

Seraphim: If there was a successful cult recruit last night its probably not an issue, as for all intents and purposes that person is still a townie for now, at least until the mafia presence is diminished a fair amount. Also, in the last DR game with a cult I was in, the culties reverted upon the leader's death, so its possible there's none at all.

[armlx]

@Sekinj: Do you have a better one, then?

That's not a really legit argument here. Then again, I don't think sekinj's counter argument is stellar either.

[armlx]

It wasn't a 'let's lynch BA because there's no better target', but 'if you don't like the current wagon, then make a new one'.

Right, except its possible for someone to realize wagon A is bad without knowing where to go.

[armlx]

This kind of arguing is only a distraction

Or useful for teaching someone to not be an idiot.

[armlx]

"Empking, Elektra, BlakAdder, Jebus, Rush: More activity and/or content from you guys! What do you think about the latest developments in the game? What are your 3 top suspects and why? " so obviously one of these five is scum

That's a pretty ridiculous conclusion. If anything, one of those 5 is scum just based on random statistical odds.

[armlx]

How does tunnel vision apply to scum BA?

[armlx]

D1 suspicions can get tossed to the wayside really easily D2 Electra. I think you are WIFOMing yourself out of seeing the case here.

[armlx]

Votes leading up to L-1 don't take away the rest of the town's chance to react and unvote.

They do in a way.

Also, honestly, there is no way you can attack any vote based on not believing the claim, as it was obvious he was lying and shouldn't have lied as town.

[armlx]

In what way?

Putting someone at L-1 lets someone else hammer, putting someone at L-2 lets someone put them at L-1, etc. Mid range votes let the wagon gain momentum to be able to become a speed lynch.

[armlx]

Mod: Please reign in Emp's insults, or

I will need to replace out of this game

replace/mod kill him out of this game

Fixed.

I'm down with this. As town in Xyl's Smalltown he at least didn't degenerate into insults, and instead just kept spouting a baseless case and not really arguing.

Unvote, Vote Emp

[armlx]

Fos: sera

for suggesting

This. Strongly so. I seem to remember this issue coming up earlier this game, or am I confused?

Also, claim and/or die plz Emp.

[armlx]

Empking, you are at lynch-2. CLAIM OR DIE. You have no other options.

This. He's stalled already...... odds are on die at this point.

[armlx]

Hmm....

Reread needed given last night. Probably will happen soon.

[armlx]

Oh wow, I didn't even see sekinj's death. I only saw the other 3.

CKD, it's pretty obv the set up is 3-4 Mafia A, 3-4 Mafia B, 1 CL, 1 SK, and 1 kill was a vig, and we could probably determine the number in each group over tonight (as 3 jap. Mafia are dead).

[armlx]

5/12 is almost 50% scum... pretty high. I think we are done with 3, but 4 isn't impossible, though it would require pretty much every townie alive to be a power role. Talk about swingy.

[armlx]

Wrong. Two mafia of 3-4 can be like one mafia of two people, since there's a moderate chance the two mafias will kill each other.

What?

No. Mafia A would have 3-4 people. B would have 3-4 people.....

Unless that isn't your intent....

I honestly don't understand what your point is.

[armlx]

Wrong. Two mafia of 3-4 can be like one mafia of two people, since there's a moderate chance the two mafias will kill each other.

I'm talking at the start of the game with 24 alive. You are talking now.

[armlx]

Defending stef, defended by other one of that mafia groups.

This seems too obvious.

Vote BA

[armlx]

I guess you guys DO need Grandpa to show you how it's done.

I believe the phrase is "Shit or get off the pot".

[armlx]

That would not balance CKD. Too much night related variance.

[armlx]

How would 14/4/4/1/1+(cult) give more variance than 16/3/3/1/1+(cult) ? It's the same amount of nightkills, right?

Oh, I was confusing the 1+. You meant it as the cult, I read it as another SK plus the cult.

Its a matter of proportions then. I seem to remember the math on cults making them essentially another mafia group.

[armlx]

Is that even a real vote?

WTF. I've seen massive play better then this in the recent past.

[armlx]

I don't know, I see some validity in that vote.

Why?

[armlx]

I don't know, I see some validity in that vote.

Why?

Because it makes sense. Why don't you like it?

1. Read a day/night scene from any other DR game.

2. You are assuming the mod, an impartial third party, is not acting as such in a non-theme game.

[armlx]

Which games have you seen with clues in the flavor? I've seen 1, and it was a really convoluted one from years ago involving the kill methods of the mod-SK having the same initials as the mod + co-mod, leaving a clue to the players.

Again, theme game with weird ass issues.

[armlx]

Giving factional kill flavor is standard across most games, and FAR less revealing then saying "Oh, btw, here's some hidden info about who a dead person targeted last night".

I honestly can't believe I'm having this discussion.

[armlx]

possible that the cult started with two people, and one more from night one.

No, its not. Cults that start at 1 member are strong enough as is.

So we've got more japanese mafia, probably only one more.

What makes you sure on this?

[armlx]

post 650 is a joke..cant wait for a follow up.

I agree I want to see what final conclusions are drawn, but as for straight up joke I'm not quite sure yet.

[armlx]

Armlx: I'm not sure of this, that's just a rough estimation. Two four-person scumgroups = 8/24, boils down to a scum-town ratio of 1:3. With the cult on top, and possible SK, it makes the game pretty balanced.

Except people usually count the cult and SK in their scum counts.

[armlx]

I don't get this part. How does the fact that GW (mafia) and ooba (cult) (and Tar (town)) were voting you imply that armlx and EA are scummy for voting you too? Especially with the game still early in the random voting stage at that point, this argument holds no water. It looks more like an OMGUS argument to me.

This.

[armlx]

I've seen it mentioned by a couple folks so FWIW, I also think Sera's mentioning a Jester was scummy and not productive. I forget their join date, but it could have been a purely newbish mistake (jumping at the thought that shadows might in fact exist).

If I hadn't known my alignment when reading, I'd have called Sera anti-town.

Classic apologizing for replacee's mistakes.

FOS gorckat

[armlx]

@armlx: Can you point to a history of players replacing in as scum that apologize for the mistakes made before them? Can you show an equal weight of townies that don't?

I don't have a statistical backing outside of what I can remember form my own play. Sorry. I haven't Jeep'ed the tell. I know from my past play though that I have done it at a disproportionate rate as scum, but no lie if you asked me to point out the exact games odds are I couldn't.

[armlx]

EBWODP: That said, of the games I replaced into that are done that are my sample size, I was scum a disproportionate number of times IIRC, so its possible my sample was skewed by that.

And one example I remembered was the Mini Love game with ABR and Farside in it where I replace Jex. ThAd was mod.

[armlx]

hasdgfas, I hope you replaced for someone, because if yo did not notice Empking's lynch, there is something very wrong.

I am reading through the game and making observations without looking at the first post summary. I find it's a better way of replacing in than reading the first post and backwards reading the game.

I agree with hascows.

[armlx]

Jebus makes a good point that validates BA as scum.

[armlx]

As you said, its likely there's another Japanese mafia, which is what the case on BA was built on.

[armlx]

I stated the same thing but it got ignored.

If it was the same argument re: Sekinj's bah post, link plz.

[armlx]

I can get behind a SG lynch.

[armlx]

Uhh, yeah, quote is what I meant.

And fair nuff. I just didn't see that for some reason.

[armlx]

NOTE: SG has not done a dice vote in any other game on MS. I find that very interesting.

This is a winner.

Vote ShadowGirl

[armlx]

Why does this seem akin to the smiley meta that was mentioned earlier in the game? Anyway, this is not a reason to vote someone on day three.

Why isn't it?

Other factors that cow brought up where more interesting such as i stated as well her following the votes and backing off of votes.

I agree. I was interested in how SG would react to a vote just based on that. I'm more interested in how she hasn't made any strong commitments to an opinion all game.

[armlx]

vote massive

fos armlx

still waiting for a answer from the mod.

More plz?

[armlx]

not sure why are this point (day 3) you are voting because of a lack of a dice roll.

Correction: The stated reason was that there was a die roll this game, but never anywhere else.

And read post 717.

[armlx]

It's a weak meta: as well, I've said also that it shouldn't be the deciding reason to vote.

Why is it a weak meta?

Hell, see earlier this game.

[armlx]

Doubt there are clues in the night scene of a NORMAL game.

[armlx]

Hi.

I've yet to see you lay down a real reason you think I'm scum.

Define why you feel these are the kind of kills I would do, preferably with examples of games where I was scum.

Give examples of where you feel my questions haven't been pertinent.

[armlx]

unvote, vote ShadowGirl

Her helpful vote counts pre-both-lynches coupled with her joy of the previous night's events are a desperate attempt to appear townie. I don't believe a townie needs to do that.

Voting for the next highest vote getter when you are in the suspicion spotlight = mafia to me.

vote massive

That's all you have to say?

[armlx]

FOS CKD

for that vote.

[armlx]

Look at his general game participation. Compare that to his vote.

[armlx]

jumping on the bandwagon (or whoever seems to be getting heat at the time)of the hour. not posting content. but still keeping up with the game.

I think we are differed on whether he is still doing the 3rd thing or not.

[armlx]

jumping on the bandwagon (or whoever seems to be getting heat at the time)of the hour. not posting content. but still keeping up with the game.

I think we are differed on whether he is still doing the 3rd thing or not.

well he stated a reason..he had to at least skim.

Skim != keeping up with the game.

[armlx]

So either Rush posts and we get enough info for a full evaluation of his scumminess, or he gets replaced.

That's how I see it.

[armlx]

well, he is posting enough to not get replaced...which is crap

Is that scummy?

I agree it is crap though.

[armlx]

Amazing. I love playing with people who are just dead weight.....

[armlx]

BTW, CKD, this is about what I expected, hence my response to you voting him. If he was a remotely established as useful player, I would agree with you.

[armlx]

unvote

...I think armlx is right...though he could suck as town or scum

Yeah.

My old stance on people like this was to ignore them if there was a legitimate target. Then I had to play with K7 and SSK for like 5 games in a row. Needless to say, my outlook is open to change.

[armlx]

Right, but if no one else is he should be lynched.

Or the vig we presumably have can just do it.

A lynch on him is going to net minimal info is the issue, as its way too easy for people to just hop on as there is not an established larger reason to think he is scum.

[armlx]

I ended up grinding for 8 hours

I sadly have nothing to say now except this is for some reason exceptionally funny.

[armlx]

I'm voting SG still, right?

[armlx]

You post still doesn't address the overarching theme of nothing that fills most of your posts.

[armlx]

armlx: just a note BM seems to think that because k-7 never post or does anything that is how he survives as scum or town. There is a theory that it's best to think about lynching these types of players because they are so anti town. With that said I agree with post 776

I like the vig kill option, and as a mod I would support shifting the site wide meta to have most games have a vig to deal with these types. Or, as a mod, to automatically exclude these types of players from any games that you will mod.

[armlx]

If two players share the top score of votes lynch is decided by duel

I forgot about this. Interesting.

Sierra, why is Gorckat's behavior scummy?

[armlx]

Unvote. Vote Rush

See his last post.

[armlx]

Extend deadline further please.

I'd like to hear more from Rush before possibly putting a vote on him.

GL with that.

[armlx]

Bump.

So, are we just going to lynch Rush and be done with it?

[armlx]

Rush has made it clear he is going to continue to be in the game without participating, and is actively using said meta as a WIFOM to protect himself.

[armlx]

FOS Skitzer

You are evidently reading along with the thread.

[armlx]

Lynch one of the 2, vig kills the other, move along. I really don't care which.

[armlx]

vote Cybele,

at least skitzer posted

This is so backwards.

FOS CKD

Not posting = flake. Posting = active lurking.

[armlx]

farside: Cybele hasn't been posting in mafia games and was replaced out of Babylon 5 Mafia a while ago. While he is posting elsewhere, he is clearly not playing this game.

[armlx]

That is just lurkering or more likely a player that forgot about this game. Skitzer is not like Cybele. Why is this directed to me and not CKD?

Err, yeah, my bad, wrong person. Not thinking, mainly watching House. Meant to be directed at CKD.

[armlx]

The more you post, the less I like you.

IMO this applies to both BA and CKD at the moment.

[armlx]

Bah, go town.