Invitational 10: 2005-2006. Game over! before 624

[CrashTextDummie]

Finished my read. Game got progressively more strenuous as it went on. Here's some food for thought (I know you're all starving for it):

elvis_knits

- I get a fairly strong pro-town vibe from her, primarily from the way she defended herself against mostly unconvincing, yet inexplicably popular cases. None of them had any real basis to them as far as I'm concerned (least of all DGB's), and the annoyance she expressed at this fact sounded legitimate to me. There are also instances of distinct pro-town thinking in her posts, most notably Post 352, in which she rejects the very underhanded approach of accusing someone of being scum by association.

Post 406 also strongly resonated with me, because it's true. At least at that point in the game, there

was

an environment of paranoia, as evidenced by the stark lack of vote movement I noticed in my earlier analysis. I also don't get at all why she was attacked for this observation - as far as I can see, she didn't attack anyone in particular for this (in fact, she refused to attack anyone in particular when prompted). She didn't even imply that this situation was master-planned by scum, and indeed is doesn't have to be. Paranoia is a potent weapon for the scum precisely because townies like to indulge in it on their own.

I still have the problem that he is playing very passively, but those instances where she does go on the attack reassure me of my read.

DrippingGoofball

- She's the player who was most focused on, and it's kind of a pain because she's so tough to read. I wasn't impressed by her early game shenanigans (of particular note is her calling for more votes and wagons, while keeping her own vote close to the chest), I wasn't impressed by her implosion and baiting to be lynched, and I certainly wasn't impressed by her analysis, which was obvious BS. This is evidenced by the fact that she pretty much analyzed everyone under the pre-formed decision that e_k is scum, which just doesn't hold any ground as a serious approach. It's not at all surprising to me that she got a lot more offensive once she stopped being poked at. For any other player, this would be an open and shut case, but since it's DGB, I can't be sure. Still, that makes her a decent lynch in my opinion.

bluesoul

- Yep, still my top suspect. He spent the better part of the early game bickering with a number of people over subtleties and technicalities, which was entirely pointless and destructive for the town. Once he decided to start doing some scum-hunting, he quickly honed in on DGB and stayed there for what felt like a heck of a long time. I called her an "easy to attack player" in my earlier mini-analysis, which may have been an over-statement. I am critical of players who attack people like DGB (or BM, or similar types) from the get-go, because I myself find them so hard to read and usually dismiss them until there's more material to work with. So this may just be a difference in play-styles between bluesoul and myself.

What is not just a difference in play-styles is how his suspicions and his behavior towards certain wagons evolved over the course of the game. It felt to me like he very consciously avoided the elvis_knits wagon, by stating multiple times that he's sticking with DGB. It is of note though that he explicitly wasn't opposed to it either:

The e_k wagon built up more than I was really expecting and I don't know if I like that it went that readily from the former vote-leader pointing a finger. I think one of the other invitational games had the same scenario, mneme the vote-leader deflected to pooky, the wagon got back on mneme who was in fact lynched as scum. I'm not equating the playstyle but I am equating the scenario and I'm not sure when exactly DGB stopped being the best lynch for the day. I'm not going to fight this particular wagon but I am going to be inspecting it rather closely, along with the original DGB wagon.

I voted elias to start discussion; I'd say it did exactly that. You don't have to like it, but don't automatically group me in with those that are on him for making a case from another player's content. I honestly don't find it as egregious a sin as people are making it out to be, but I wouldn't mind lynching him, if only because I think it's a better option than the e_k wagon which I'm still rather ambivalent on; something about how it's developed just feels odd.

Why yes, he is ambivalent, and it's a scummy ambivalence, in my humble opinion. The impression I am getting is that he wouldn't have cared at all which wagon took of, but that he didn't think he could afford switching himself to help momentum because it was a pretty clear elvis vs. DGB situation and this move could have been perceived as a U-turn.

On the other hand, he didn't have any reservations whatsoever to jump on Elias. Elias again seems like an easy target to me. He got the vote initially for being decidedly uninterested in the game, and bluesouls vote seemed to come more out of annoyance then of actual suspicion. And he seemingly keeps it there for the same reason. He doesn't even hide the fact that he's "voting whoever's closest to lynch so we can get some real info to chew on", which is an inherently anti-town stance. Is he even suspicious of anyone anymore? Not that I can tell. He's even bumped DGB off the table after hounding her for so long, which is just WTF to me.

I also have issues with his general tone. Use of smilies and words like "honestly" point towards the kind of self-awareness that scum is more prone to than town. He also seemed to lose interest somewhat once the DGB wagon didn't go through, which indicates to me that he's more likely to push an agenda as opposed to actually being interested in scum-hunting. Put it all together and you have a guy that should be lynched.

MrBuddyLee

- I've mentioned his obvious desire to perform well in this game as possibly pointing towards him being town, mostly based on my last experience playing with him (Mafia 64: The New "C9"). However, there have been a number of smarmy scum-MBL style posts creeping up. Stuff like Post 344 or Post 690, where he twists his interpretation of behavior to suit his purpose. I didn't like his involvement on either the e_k nor the Elias wagon and overall he gives me the willies, which is a very bad sign when I'm playing with MBL. I don't feel as strongly about him as I do about bluesoul, but I wouldn't mind seeing him dead sooner rather than later either.

I'll split this up now because it's already much longer than I anticipated. Part 2 forthcoming.

PPE: bluesouls latest post was not taken into account when writing this analysis. I'll get back to it once I'm done with everyone else.

[MrBuddyLee]

CTD, you don't want me dead any time soon unless you're scum.

You found DGB suspect and bluesoul moreso. bluesoul's sort of suspected DGB for much of today and DGB suspected bluesoul for the duration of her time under heavy pressure. Considering these are quite possibly your top two suspects, do you get a read of scumteam distancing off them or a read of one of them setting the other up as a fall guy?

Also, what do you think of DGB's leap to ME of all people when she was about to be lynched?

Note that a week after voting me as "obvscum" DGB posted the following:

MBL is townie-town-town. Which he would be regardless of his alignment. He recently fooled me quite thoroughly in mith's latest game but I can't really find flaw in his play here either. He's going to drive me crazy all game that way.

Also, how about her leap to elvis once DGB was safe and the public consensus was elvis looked bad? Would you say DGB's use of elvis as the yardstick by which to measure all others looks more like scum hiding behind a screwed townie or scum plotting to vindicate themselves when their scumpartner comes up dirty? (Or genuine town screwiness?)

[CrashTextDummie]

Patrick

- My suspicions on him have mellowed somewhat, mostly because others have gained in substance. I disagree with him on almost everything of relevance, which is somewhat disconcerting considering my meta on him. Then again, my meta on him is "Patrick is always right in everything he does and a beacon of everything pro-town when town, and who knows what the heck he does as scum", and I think he mentioned himself that this might be a little outdated. I'll hold off judgment on him for now. Should get easier to read once dead people start piling up.

Elias_the_thief

- Dear Elias_the_thief, why are you in this game? You should have been replaced a long, long time ago. Alas, you're here, and we might as well make the best of it. And I see that you're trying now.

I must say I am as puzzled as he is as to why he's pretty much being run up for shameful non-participation when he evidently put that phase behind him. My take on his wagon is that he made himself open to attack by flaunting his indifference (which in general is a null-tell, as far as I'm concerned), and people jumped on it. This makes me very hesitant to believe that he is scum. As does the fact that bluesoul and MBL are on it. I also thought that his emotional outbreak seemed sincere enough. I didn't get a clear read on him based on the content he provided, but the make-up and development of his wagon make him someone I don't want to vote for today. May revisit once more info is on the table.

Ether

- Somewhat surprisingly, my experience with Ether is limited. I wouldn't consider the games we played together standard enough to base a meta on, and I don't think I've ever seen her as scum. The only thing I can go on is a game in which I replaced her, and her play here seems reminiscent of that game to me. Here like there, she picked a target and basically stuck to it, only bothering with other people tangentially. I might have to read a game where she was scum to see whether her laid-back attitude and general lack of pro-activity is dependent on alignment. Anyone got any? Not particularly interested in her right now.

Chamber

- Was somewhat weirded out by his outburst of information early on. The fact that he regressed to mostly one- to two-liners has made him easy to read over. The brashness of his Elias vote is generally a point in his favor, because I imagine the scum to be too tense for such a move considering the gravity of the game (unless they're named DGB). I don't consider him a lynch-option at this point, will revisit tomorrow.

Pablito

- I'm glad it's PJ he replaced, because otherwise he'd be driving me mad. I've pretty much taken him out of the equation based on my meta on PJ, and I probably won't reconsider until a lot of people are dead and/or something unexpected happens. I must admit I glazed over most of his mega-posts because I know from experience that they make my head hurt a lot. I might reread him for posterity.

I'll leave it at that for the moment, because my ability to put my thoughts into words is rapidly deteriorating. I'll deliver thoughts on HackerHuck and ChannelDelibird (please get yourself replaced, mate) in my mandatory post of tomorrow.

[CrashTextDummie]

I'll answer this because I'm crazy and sleep is for the weak.

You found DGB suspect and bluesoul moreso. bluesoul's sort of suspected DGB for much of today and DGB suspected bluesoul for the duration of her time under heavy pressure. Considering these are quite possibly your top two suspects, do you get a read of scumteam distancing off them or a read of one of them setting the other up as a fall guy?

I find it distinctly possible that bluesoul was bussing/distancing from DGB, mostly because of the ease with which he let her slide off the radar, now that mostly everyone has lost interest in her.

Also, what do you think of DGB's leap to ME of all people when she was about to be lynched?

Note that a week after voting me as "obvscum" DGB posted the following:

MBL is townie-town-town. Which he would be regardless of his alignment. He recently fooled me quite thoroughly in mith's latest game but I can't really find flaw in his play here either. He's going to drive me crazy all game that way.

Also, how about her leap to elvis once DGB was safe and the public consensus was elvis looked bad? Would you say DGB's use of elvis as the yardstick by which to measure all others looks more like scum hiding behind a screwed townie or scum plotting to vindicate themselves when their scumpartner comes up dirty? (Or genuine town screwiness?)

I firmly believe that DGB tries to sow as much confusion as she possibly can as scum due to her generally short life-expectancy. I think she stated so herself on a previous occasion. Therefore, I haven't put too much thought into the particularities of her antics. I doubt I'd comb her madness for possible slip-ups even if she comes up scum. The same pretty much applies if she comes up town.

I'll elaborate further on my opinion of DGB and why I wouldn't mind lynching her later. Good night.

[MrBuddyLee]

CTD, do you think the wagon on elias has served any purpose? You seem to condemn a few people for being on it, or vice-versa.

Also, did elias seem to be scumhunting? Accurately? You don't comment at all on his suspicions and don't seem to intend to in the near future, which is bizarre.

How on earth have you managed to apply your meta of PJ to this game? Do you think that's reasonable and/or wise given the way he played and the comments he made about his level of enthusiasm?

Kudos for posting promptly, but I have to say I've been more impressed with your past work. This batch of cookies you've baked us tastes a little flat, though I'll cut you slack for the volume of chaff you sorted through and the late hours. But I definitely didn't get the town feel from you tonight that I got in the Large Open.

[elvis_knits]

CTD, you don't want me dead any time soon unless you're scum.

Why do we let you get away with this kind of crap?

Let me explain why this kind of statement is annoying. It implies that you are either:

1)So townie you are beyond reproach (which is so not true, and also, you should not be the one judging)
2)Possibly hinting at power role without claiming and without anyone asking for you to claim... so scummy
3)Even if you're town, you totally ignore the possibility that another townie might think you scummy. As if your behavior is so townie! (Actually this is basically the same point as 1).

This kind of comment is at least pompous, conceited, and narrow-minded. And possibly an effective way to manipulate people into thinking you're town when you're not.

Also, what do you think of DGB's leap to ME of all people when she was about to be lynched?

"Me, of all people"

Like it would be ridiculous for anyone to think you're scum! LOLOLOLOLOL! (See reasing above for why this is annoying and possibly scummy).

Note that a week after voting me as "obvscum" DGB posted the following:

MBL is townie-town-town. Which he would be regardless of his alignment. He recently fooled me quite thoroughly in mith's latest game but I can't really find flaw in his play here either. He's going to drive me crazy all game that way.

Also, how about her leap to elvis once DGB was safe and the public consensus was elvis looked bad? Would you say DGB's use of elvis as the yardstick by which to measure all others looks more like scum hiding behind a screwed townie or scum plotting to vindicate themselves when their scumpartner comes up dirty? (Or genuine town screwiness?)

I would also like it if MBL answers these questions about why he thinks DGL did these things.

I think that DGB used me as a yardstick to connect people as scum buddies because there was a lot of postulating on scum buddies at the time, and she was using it as another reason why I should be lynched. If she can make it look plausable that she has found scum AND partners, she can say it's worth it to lynch me for the information that will yield about others. Many people were saying this. That I had to be lynched for information. Nobody was realizing that 1)The cases connecting me to others was full of WIFOM, and 2) I was being connected to more than half the town as scum partner which is impossible and should have shown how ridiculous the connections were that were being made.

[DrippingGoofball]

Finally!!! Someone sees that bluesoul is scum. Amen!!! I thought it was just me.

[CrashTextDummie]

CTD, do you think the wagon on elias has served any purpose? You seem to condemn a few people for being on it, or vice-versa.

What kind of question is that? Every wagon serves a purpose in the long run. If you were meaning to ask if I find it to be justified, it should be obvious the answer is no.

And no I am not condemning people for being on it, you have my causalities mixed up. Bluesoul being on it is just one reason I am suspicious of him, and in your case it's more the tone of attack (which displays the kind of spin you like to use as scum) thant the actual placement on the wagon.

I am curious though: Do you think bluesouls stated reasons for voting Elias are justified enough for a lynch?

Also, did elias seem to be scumhunting? Accurately? You don't comment at all on his suspicions and don't seem to intend to in the near future, which is bizarre.

Elias seemed to be ranting more than anything. I didn't see particular reason to object to his suspicions, or I would have pointed them out. And I don't see where you get the impression that I'm unwilling to comment on him in the near future, as I clearly state that I don't think there's enough material to judge him upon on his own. I dislike the wagon and won't support it based on what we have, don't see what's bizarre about that.

How on earth have you managed to apply your meta of PJ to this game? Do you think that's reasonable and/or wise given the way he played and the comments he made about his level of enthusiasm?

My meta on him must be better than yours? I used to annoy him by accurately reading him based on his first 10 posts of a game. It works in the vast majority of cases, and I think is a pretty clear fit in this one. And yes, it takes his level of enthusiasm into account, seeing as it's been a thing for him for a pretty long time now.

Kudos for posting promptly, but I have to say I've been more impressed with your past work. This batch of cookies you've baked us tastes a little flat, though I'll cut you slack for the volume of chaff you sorted through and the late hours. But I definitely didn't get the town feel from you tonight that I got in the Large Open.

It's okay, big boy, I understand. It's probably because I didn't have 100 pages and several day/night cycles to work with, which usually help me get a grasp or things. Or it could be because I'm not replacing someone you already had a pro-town read on. Or it could be because you're scum. Take your pick.

More analysis coming tonight, as usual.

Vote: bluesoul

, because I forgot yesterday.

[elvis_knits]

While we are exploring the scumminess of bluesoul, which I think has some merit, I also want to bring up:

ETHER

-Has been focused primarily on me all game. That's fine if she thinks I'm scum, but to fail to contemplate other people is bad. I think it's abnormal for a player to be SO sure of their suspicions of one person that they never want to go after anyone else. And in that sense, it is a bit of a scum tell as it's not normal townie behavior. (CTD said she tends to do this. Maybe. I don't remember it in PYP3, the other game I played with her).

-dislike of DGB wagon, yet wants her to claim and speculated A LOT on her role:

I mentioned DGB in passing twice up there, and am aware that she is the leading wagon. Eh. She should claim, I guess, but this is one of those things I wouldn't join outside of a deadline but can't be bothered to fight. Deadline in mind, assuming the votecount stays like this, I'll hop on around...let's say late Thursday, which would be about 60-72 hours after the deadline kicks in.

She still needs to claim.

DGB's wagon is giving me a bad feeling--I don't think her failure to claim could possibly be optimal, but I could see her doing it as town in at least one role. If she's a supersaint, she should stop playing jester and claim; those are stronger later. Please confirm or deny that?

I could totally see DGB making the statement in 316 as a supersaint, and as I've said, I wouldn't want to lynch her if she claimed that (if she's scum, there's still no harm waiting on a supersaint claim). But that's the only town explanation I do see. It could be a gambit as scum, and I don't like the way she hasn't posted since my statement.

Supersaint is a dead end claim. I have seen it used as a fakeclaim, yes, and I can see the psychology behind that, but in practice it's only a way to stall. It's a bonus lynch in three-player endgame, or possibly before that, depending on parity. It wouldn't even score a counterclaim the scum would be interested in.

This extreme interest in DGB to claim and her role speculating about supersaint is scummy to me because SHE DOESN'T EVEN THINK DGB IS SCUM. She's sort of waffly and says she thinks DGB is hard to read. Spending this much time trying to figure out a person's role when you don't even think they're scum is very scummy. It's role fishing.

Also, all the speculation about a supersaint had a lot to do with the stalling of DGB wagon, and the failure to lynch her (I blame MBL mostly, but I think Ether had a hand in it as well). I was the only one willing to hammer her, but never got the chance because the wagon swung away.

-This one is a small thing, but in her most recent attack on me she said:

I don't like Elvis's recent votehops: she picked up some flak for her MBLvote, then stayed quiet for four days and switched to CDB without another word on MBL. (She says there's a parallel to this in CDB's falling behind, but her spat with him doesn't seem worth lurking as scum--plus he later unvotes, so it doesn't work as a sinister way to keep a vote on her anyway. I'm not interested in any part of her case.) Having said that, I'd sort of expect her to be pushing a DGBlynch over a brand new wagon--I don't get why she's abandoned her DGBhate, regardless of alignment. Elvis, what is your opinion of DGB?

It bothered me that she said I "stayed quiet for four days," when she has been posting less and less, and it had been 5-6 days between posts for her when she said that about me. And now she hasn't posted for 2 weeks.

Also, I might have said this before, but WTF is she doing asking me what I think of DGB when I have consistently said I want her dead?

[MrBuddyLee]

Ether hasn't posted for two weeks. And I'm sure she's not the only one. Please have some empathy for the mod, people, and don't make him replace yet another slacker.

elvis, I'm just having fun with little statements like those. Clearly I don't expect that everyone will drop their pants and realize I'm town just cause I say so. But as town I'm really not worried about it either, because my protown playstyle is already shining through. And it's a little curious that CTD hasn't picked up on it yet, because he nailed my alignment in both of the last two games we played together and he was town in both.

I'm wondering now if CTD is scum prepared to profit if/when elvis gets mislynched as town. He cuts her way too much slack/doesn't really seem to have read her posts carefully, cause there's a lot wrong in her posts imo.

I get a fairly strong pro-town vibe from her, primarily from the way she defended herself against mostly unconvincing, yet inexplicably popular cases.

I think this demands details. Among other things, if elvis is town, we should be able to find scum by picking out the worse case or two strung together against her.

And no I am not condemning people for being on it, you have my causalities mixed up.

Yes, thus my "or vice-versa".

I am curious though: Do you think bluesouls stated reasons for voting Elias are justified enough for a lynch?

No, he's admitted that to some extent he's willing to settle for a quicker, possibly inaccurate lynch out of his personal impatience. I'd actually be more concerned if he was trying to cover that fact up. I DO think he should give us a broader analysis of the town at large instead of trying to get away with piecemeal. He has, to his credit, weighed in on elvis, albeit without many supporting details.

[CrashTextDummie]

elvis, I'm just having fun with little statements like those. Clearly I don't expect that everyone will drop their pants and realize I'm town just cause I say so. But as town I'm really not worried about it either, because my protown playstyle is already shining through. And it's a little curious that CTD hasn't picked up on it yet, because he nailed my alignment in both of the last two games we played together and he was town in both.

You are curiously omitting the fact that I wavered a whole lot on you in one of the games you are citing, and in fact had the intention to lynch you at the time I was replaced. It was the one you were town in also, for those who aren't familiar with that game.

You're a lot easier to read when you are scum.

I'm wondering now if CTD is scum prepared to profit if/when elvis gets mislynched as town. He cuts her way too much slack/doesn't really seem to have read her posts carefully, cause there's a lot wrong in her posts imo.

And I'm wondering if

you

are scum prepared to profit if/when elvis gets mislynched as town, by painting my defense of her as anything other than an accurate read.

She's one of about 4 people I spent the most attention on for what it's worth. Kind of beneath you to cast suspicion on a player for not seeing something you (believe or pretend to) see. You should know better.

I get a fairly strong pro-town vibe from her, primarily from the way she defended herself against mostly unconvincing, yet inexplicably popular cases.

I think this demands details. Among other things, if elvis is town, we should be able to find scum by picking out the worse case or two strung together against her.

Fair enough. Considering my self-imposed posting-quota, I can't have enough topics to write about. I'll try to get to it tomorrow, since I still have to finish my analysis.

[elvis_knits]

elvis, I'm just having fun with little statements like those. Clearly I don't expect that everyone will drop their pants and realize I'm town just cause I say so. But as town I'm really not worried about it either, because my protown playstyle is already shining through. And it's a little curious that CTD hasn't picked up on it yet, because he nailed my alignment in both of the last two games we played together and he was town in both.

I have never played with you before (at least I don't remember). So how am I supposed to know your pro-town playstyle? And if you know what your pro-town playstyle is, doesn't that mean you can fake it when you're scum?

I'm wondering now if CTD is scum prepared to profit if/when elvis gets mislynched as town. He cuts her way too much slack/doesn't really seem to have read her posts carefully, cause there's a lot wrong in her posts imo.

This is a great example of how you decrease a town's effectiveness and increase paranoia, based solely on supposition! Congratulations! You spend lots of time saying I'm scum, then attact others if they don't agree with you. And somehow, you come to the conclusion that if I'm town, it's scummy for anyone else to recognize it! These kinds of statements make it impossible for townies to agree with one another without looking scummy, and increases paranoia.

This type of thing screws up the town and manipulates people into agreeing with YOU. It's divisive and unhelpul and SCUMMY.

(How can this be your pro-town playstyle? I cannot see it.)

I get a fairly strong pro-town vibe from her, primarily from the way she defended herself against mostly unconvincing, yet inexplicably popular cases.

I think this demands details. Among other things, if elvis is town, we should be able to find scum by picking out the worse case or two strung together against her.

DGB's is horrible. So is yours.

[MrBuddyLee]

You are curiously omitting the fact that I wavered a whole lot on you in one of the games you are citing.

Actually, I think you nailed the initial read and then on your road to replacement you got on my ass after the GF posted a wall-o-text against me. I assumed you were just paying less attention or something--my read on you didn't really change. More importantly, your suspicions in both games were nuanced, so I think I'll be able to read you just fine this game. It's tough to fake that kind of sincerity and earnestness. I got a VERY protown read off of you in 64.

And I'm wondering if

you

are scum prepared to profit if/when elvis gets mislynched as town, by painting my defense of her as anything other than an accurate read.

If elvis goes down as town, I'd be one of the first ones to get scrutinized. I sincerely believe she's likely scum, and will have much splaining to do if she gets bumped and comes up good guy. I see no way I'll "profit" should elvis come up town before I die. Odd attempt at turnabout by you, indicating a possible (albeit understandable for now) thinness of your comprehension of gamestate.

[MrBuddyLee]

And elvis, we're going to have to agree to disagree on the scumpair thing. I know of no better way to find scum than by asking one person to talk about another and then deciding whether or not they have inside info on that person's alignment.

In particular, if someone's "too sure" about someone else's scumminess, or clears them for slim reasons, scumpair is a distinct possibility. It's all in the tone though--are they being deceitful or lazy?

[bluesoul]

No, he's admitted that to some extent he's willing to settle for a quicker, possibly inaccurate lynch out of his personal impatience. I'd actually be more concerned if he was trying to cover that fact up. I DO think he should give us a broader analysis of the town at large instead of trying to get away with piecemeal. He has, to his credit, weighed in on elvis, albeit without many supporting details.

I'll try to give a little more information on Friday, I've been working 8 AM to 11 PM and that leaves precious little time for much of anything. e_k's 755 is outstanding and I'm in full agreement with it.

I have a lot to do today so I'll try and answer, briefly, a few questions that have come up.

Jumping on e_k vs. jumping on elias: I don't see how the two situations equate honestly. Elvis had a rather sizable wagon that, at the time, I was not comfortable enough with the reasoning on to join, but not opposed to ending the day for info, thus ambivalence. At this point I find elvis protown so I won't be getting on that wagon today. Elias, on the other hand, had either zero or one vote (don't remember) and had been given precious little examination. Pretty awesome that "scumhunting" is only such when it's not an "easy target". I also find it funny that you hedge your bets on the "easy to attack" statement after I post asking for more information,

of course

you didn't read it, now it's just a playstyle difference. Convenient, wot?

My tone: Yes, I am acutely aware of what I'm writing all the time. It has less to do with playstyle/metagame/whatever than it has to do with my background as a writer. I don't see how this is an argument either way; you are not required to like my tone, God knows I don't like it when players say "Well, I don't really think about what I'm writing." Language is the core of thought; without language there is no thought, and if you don't think about your words I'd call that a fair indicator you're not taking the subject seriously. This is mafia theory at best though, and really goes quite a ways past that so if you wish to debate on it we can do so privately.

Bussing/distancing from DGB: Not a totally unreasonable accusation, but I'm simply not enough of an asshole to keep on someone just to act triumphant if they end up scum. She appeared scummy for most of the game and her posts lately have been significantly less so. That doesn't mean I'm exonerating her entirely, it means that to me now she's had both scummy and protown moments. Just a quirk you're going to have to deal with.

I get a fairly strong pro-town vibe from her, primarily from the way she defended herself against mostly unconvincing, yet inexplicably popular cases.

I think this demands details. Among other things, if elvis is town, we should be able to find scum by picking out the worse case or two strung together against her.

I'll agree to that, I said I'd look into it a while back and never got around to it. I'll try to focus on that later today and Friday.

[CrashTextDummie]

Actually, I think you nailed the initial read and then on your road to replacement you got on my ass after the GF posted a wall-o-text against me. I assumed you were just paying less attention or something--my read on you didn't really change. More importantly, your suspicions in both games were nuanced, so I think I'll be able to read you just fine this game. It's tough to fake that kind of sincerity and earnestness. I got a VERY protown read off of you in 64.

Actually, I'm pretty sure I got on your ass on my own, as you didn't get under heavy fire until after I bowed out. But I disgress...

What you're saying here illustrates perfectly why your argument against me here is entirely without merit and fallacious. I am town in this game, and yet you are seemingly not able to see it like you did in 64. Does that mean you are scum? No it doesn't. Just as me not reading you accurately shouldn't tell you anything about my alignment.

"Burden of Infallible Reading"? Not gonna fly.

If there's anything particular about my attack against you that you find scummy, spill it. "He didn't spot my town-tells" doesn't cut it.

If elvis goes down as town, I'd be one of the first ones to get scrutinized. I sincerely believe she's likely scum, and will have much splaining to do if she gets bumped and comes up good guy. I see no way I'll "profit" should elvis come up town before I die. Odd attempt at turnabout by you, indicating a possible (albeit understandable for now) thinness of your comprehension of gamestate.

I shouldn't have to spell this out for you, but whatever. It feels to me like you're trying to set me up as a fall guy in the event of an elvis mislynch, and the fact that I'm protesting the wagon makes this even more ludicrous.

But while we're entertaining the thought, who else would elvis coming up as town point to as scum? Someone on the wagon perhaps?

Jumping on e_k vs. jumping on elias: I don't see how the two situations equate honestly. Elvis had a rather sizable wagon that, at the time, I was not comfortable enough with the reasoning on to join, but not opposed to ending the day for info, thus ambivalence. At this point I find elvis protown so I won't be getting on that wagon today.

Since when do you find elvis protown, and what prompted this change of heart? Your stance towards her previously ranged from on-the-fence to willing-to-vote.

And I didn't say the two situations equate, I'm saying they're separate instances that fit a pattern of you being scum.

Elias, on the other hand, had either zero or one vote (don't remember) and had been given precious little examination. Pretty awesome that "scumhunting" is only such when it's not an "easy target".

Excuse me, but "scumhunting"? What scummy actions are you accusing Elias of, exactly? It doesn't matter much to me when you joined the wagon, what matters is that you're still on it, for stated reason: "I wouldn't mind lynching him, if only because I think it's a better option than the e_k wagon".

I also find it funny that you hedge your bets on the "easy to attack" statement after I post asking for more information, of course you didn't read it, now it's just a playstyle difference. Convenient, wot?

I'm not sure if you're deliberately misrepresenting me here or if I didn't express myself clearly enough. I didn't say it's just a playstyle difference, I said it

may

just be a playstyle difference. People who park their vote early on players whose alignment is generally impossible to determine based on their posting alone instead of trying to get a read on people that are actually readable are either lazy or scum in my opinion. Sarcastro would be an example of the former, and since you strike me as scum for a lot of other reasons, I brought it up as a point against you. Am I clearer now?

My tone: Yes, I am acutely aware of what I'm writing all the time. It has less to do with playstyle/metagame/whatever than it has to do with my background as a writer. I don't see how this is an argument either way; you are not required to like my tone, God knows I don't like it when players say "Well, I don't really think about what I'm writing." Language is the core of thought; without language there is no thought, and if you don't think about your words I'd call that a fair indicator you're not taking the subject seriously. This is mafia theory at best though, and really goes quite a ways past that so if you wish to debate on it we can do so privately.

I say your choice of words and tone strike me as scummy, you say they are chosen deliberately. That doesn't mean much to me, but we can leave it at that.

I resent your dismissal of this line of thought as "mafia theory at best" though, because it is integral to my method of scumhunting, which is based on vibes above all. But since you haven't done any scumhunting of notice in this game, I can see why you wouldn't understand that.

Bussing/distancing from DGB: Not a totally unreasonable accusation, but I'm simply not enough of an asshole to keep on someone just to act triumphant if they end up scum. She appeared scummy for most of the game and her posts lately have been significantly less so. That doesn't mean I'm exonerating her entirely, it means that to me now she's had both scummy and protown moments. Just a quirk you're going to have to deal with.

Please provide instances of protown moments for DGB.

I'm starting work on my assignment for today, which is to finish my analysis of HackerHuck and CDB. Maybe more, depending on how long it takes me.

[CrashTextDummie]

Ah yes, forgot to comment on this:

In particular, if someone's "too sure" about someone else's scumminess, or clears them for slim reasons, scumpair is a distinct possibility. It's all in the tone though--are they being deceitful or lazy?

Or maybe there's a third possibility: they are simply accurate in their read and you are not.

See, this is the kind of stuff that simply rubs me the wrong way about you, MBL. You examine a situation and tailor it to suit your purposes (in this case to paint me as either deceitful or lazy), while leaving everything out that doesn't fit the picture you're trying to present. It's manipulative and dishonest.

If you think my reasons to think elvis is probably town are slim, elaborate. I'm particularly interested to hear why you think scum would make a post like 406

[CrashTextDummie]

Channel Delibird

- IH was completely useless. What little is there reminds me of an open game I've modded in which he was scum, but it's too little to go on considering his incredibly small body of contribution.

CDBs first post of note sounds decent enough, and it's actually striking how much it fits my current suspicions (he concentrates on DGB and bluesoul, while also touching on MBL and OGML). His second post of note however I find baffling. I don't see what he finds compelling about DGBs case against elvis at all (I could elaborate, but I don't remember to which extent elvis has already defended herself against it), and the fact that he puts elvis at L-1 based on it, despite saying stating earlier that DGB is his prime suspect and that her previous actions cannot be ignored, is more than a little disturbing.

Even more baffling however is his unvote of elvis in Post 575. He's not sure he's on the wagon for "the right reasons"? As in DGBs reasons which he found compelling enough to put someone at L-1? This is almost laughably inconsistent. Exactly why is MBL claiming that CDBs game has matured in his opinion?

Wouldn't mind lynching him either.

And I just wanted to quote this because I think it's funny:

In other news, I agree with MBL's sentiment on Elias re: doing the game justice, but I don't want to vote him for it, I just want him to post or be replaced.

HackerHuck next.

[CrashTextDummie]

I got sidetracked there for a bit. Hope I didn't hold the game hostage for too long.

HackerHuck

- OGML's part of the game looks pretty clean to me. I think it's a protown move to recognize and question when a player is going buddy-buddy on you for no apparent reason, the way he did with MBL in the early goings. I also like the fact that he didn't really get involved in all the DGB business and instead concentrated his efforts on people that generally weren't discussed much by the town at large.

HackerHuck was also swayed to some extent by DGBs case against elvis, but his rationale for this is one I can actually follow from a town point of view (even though I don't agree with it), particularly because he reads DGB as town. I find his thought process to be easy to comprehend and generally consider it to be consistent, and he made some observations that indicate a keen interest in finding scum. The only thing that stood out a bit was his placement of my predecessors in his top 3 at one point, if only because his stated suspicion (which was there pretty much from the beginning) didn't feel that strong to me in relation to other people he's commented on. It's only a small point though. Not interested in this fellow.

That wraps up my analysis, unless I missed someone. I've read those last two guys in isolation, which I think helped the quality of the picture I'm seeing, particularly compared to my reads on people like Ether and Chamber. So I'll add doing that for others to my to-do list should I ever run out of material.

Now could we get a roll call, please? I believe we have 12 players, yet I only see 4 posting. This is an invitational, guys, try to rise to the occasion.

[HackerHuck]

Wow, a lot of content in the last 24 hours!

I'm going to digest it a bit, but I have few observations.

CTD - You call out DGB for her approach in which she composes her analysis with the preconceived notion that E_K is scum. I call out Elias for the doing same thing yet it doesn't seem to cause a blip on your radar. Are you predisposed to find Elias as town?

I'm now a little concerned about my previous thoughts. CTD - one of my top three suspects - manages to call out my other top three suspects as being solidly town and not worth pursuing today. I cant fathom that CTD as scum would call out all of his scum-buddies as solid town, so that means I'm wrong about at least a couple of them - or that CTD is

really

bad at spotting scum.

I would say that Mr Buddy Lee's recent play is starting to remind me of how he performed in Open 64, but I certainly wouldn't put it past him to start acting that way knowing that a few of us are familiar with it. I don't think that E_K's observations on him make the strong case she's trying to. I'm not sure what to make of her sudden lashing out at MBL and Ether. It seems like she might be worried about being a deadline lynch, but our content seems to be good enough that we won't be hit with a deadline anytime soon. I can definitely see that she might be protecting bother herself and Elias from that perspective.

[elvis_knits]

I don't think that E_K's observations on him make the strong case she's trying to.

Explain what you don't agree with, or what points you find weak.

I'm not sure what to make of her sudden lashing out at MBL and Ether.

I have had a problem with both of them all game, in case you haven't noticed. Why do you say I am "lashing out." Does that mean you don't agree with my points or that you simply don't want me putting down my suspicions? If you don't agree with my points, let me know which ones and why. If you have some other reason you object to it, please say WHY.

It seems like she might be worried about being a deadline lynch, but our content seems to be good enough that we won't be hit with a deadline anytime soon. I can definitely see that she might be protecting bother herself and Elias from that perspective.

Any reason you think this or are you just throwing around BS like MBL?

[CrashTextDummie]

CTD - You call out DGB for her approach in which she composes her analysis with the preconceived notion that E_K is scum. I call out Elias for the doing same thing yet it doesn't seem to cause a blip on your radar. Are you predisposed to find Elias as town?

It's possible that I am. By the time he actually started appearing on the map, I had already formed an opinion on most other players, and that certainly played a part in how I perceived the attacks made against him. I've reread his posts just now to check if I have missed something, and I stand by my point. Based on his posts alone, I don't think there is a compelling case for him being scum.

That is not to say that I find his posts particularly pro-town. So far he's been very selective in who and what he commented on, and that makes him tough to place for me. However, there's no reason for me to assume that he's done this deliberately or because of a scummy motive, it's just a result of him not being around for large parts of the game.

As for your DGB/Elias comparison, I respectfully disagree. His suspicion of DGB is consistent with an earlier analysis of his, and it's not unreasonable for him to go into a reread with this in mind and confirming his suspicion. And it's not at all comparable to what DGB did, which was linking as many people as possible to elvis_knits in order to establish the "elvis axis of evil".

It's also worth pointing out that I don't find this particularly damning for her, as you seem to think I do. It's possible that DGB is a townie who thinks she caught scum, and that building over-the-top fallacious cases is part of her pro-town method of madness. I just don't get why it made so many people reconsider her, particularly those who thought she was scum before.

I'm now a little concerned about my previous thoughts. CTD - one of my top three suspects - manages to call out my other top three suspects as being solidly town and not worth pursuing today. I cant fathom that CTD as scum would call out all of his scum-buddies as solid town, so that means I'm wrong about at least a couple of them - or that CTD is

really

bad at spotting scum.

I was going to say "or maybe YOU are really bad at spotting scum", but I still have hopes for you.

Let's talk about CDB, for example. You pointed out something about his play that bothered me as well, but it didn't seem to register as scummy enough for you to consider him a suspect. Why do you think Elias' play is worse than CDB's glaring inconsistency?

And I actually still want to know how my predecessors ended up on your top 3, because your comments on them have been sparse in relation to other people you suspect.

[MrBuddyLee]

Patrickx2, DGB, PJ, MBLx4, CDB, Huck

A list of the number of times elvis has called other people's cases on her "bullshit". Unfortunately for elvis, only 3 at most can be scum, so you're basically saying that at least three townies are intentionally trying to fling poo at you and make it stick? Why would they do that?

And worst of all, I'm town and you've accused me of making bullshit cases 4 times, so color me super unimpressed. In the case that you're town, you'll look really bad when I come up dead town, because you'll have to explain why you were accusing a townie of flinging bullshit at you.

I think scum are much more likely to try and disparage cases wantonly like that. I also think town would do a better job of explaining which cases are bullshit and which are at least somewhat legit. I'll read through and see if elvis has done that in the least, or if she's just trying to tear down and discredit instead of scumhunt.

[MrBuddyLee]

I'm particularly interested to hear why you think scum would make a post like 406

I would also like to point out that we have fostered a very bad paranoid environment in this game where nobody can agree with another person without being accused of buddying, and nobody can attack another person without being accused of bussing.

OF COURSE, scum will sometimes buddy up to townies and they will sometimes buss on another. But I don't think it should be the primary or only way you look for scum on D1.

I will say that I was stirring the pot a little in the beginning of this game to get it going. I never said anything I didn't believe or purposely try to trap anyone. But I did say things in a way that I hoped would be a little inflamatory and generate discussion.

But most of the points against me are of the paranoid ass-backwards variety that I explained above.

AND I believe I have already responded to all of them in other places in the game. If you don't agree with my explanation, please respond to that instead of bringing up things I have already responded to.

CTD, elvis is trying to discourage the use of a very successful method of scumhunting, and she's doing it SPECIFICALLY because it's being used against her. (see bolded) I'd feel a lot more comfortable if she at least pointed out one other player she thought was being victimized by this terrible scumtactic. Another thing to look for in my reread of elvis. (And I doubt I'll find it.)

She also does in paragraph three what she's been recently pissy at me for: telling people she's been sincere. "I never said anything I didn't believe" is not a statement of any value according to elvis, because it's just brainwashing. Yet she uses it. That whole third paragraph is pretty defensive.

CTD, what do you think the purpose of elvis's italicized defensiveness above? What was she responding to, if anything, and why do you think it was protown for her to do so?

Really I'm surprised that elvis didn't rally more votes, I do think that the players attacking her are NOT bus'ing (and I see bus'ing everywhere). That would mean that, if she's scum, the buddies are steering clear of any nascent wagon, preferring to hop on mine, or to abstain. Hmmm. I'm beginning to think godfatheriffic here, a scummy player who appears not to be bus'ed, yet plays aggressive.

Possibly responding to DGB's accusation of aggression?

CTD, what do you think of DGB's no-busing hypothesis that leaves out the possibility elvis is town?

DGB, can you go into detail about what you thought/think of the elviswagon?

[elvis_knits]

Patrickx2, DGB, PJ, MBLx4, CDB, Huck

A list of the number of times elvis has called other people's cases on her "bullshit". Unfortunately for elvis, only 3 at most can be scum, so you're basically saying that at least three townies are intentionally trying to fling poo at you and make it stick? Why would they do that?

Of course the cases on me are BS, since I am town. Plus, I am not calling them BS just because they come to the conclusion that I am scum. I call them BS because the arguments are flawed and I have said why they are flawed. A fact that you choose to disregard.

I don't think all the people who have ever voted me are scum. That would be ludicrous and impossible. I think some are scum and some are mistaken. Townies do attack townies (see below). That doesn't mean that the cases are legit.

And worst of all, I'm town and you've accused me of making bullshit cases 4 times, so color me super unimpressed. In the case that you're town, you'll look really bad when I come up dead town, because you'll have to explain why you were accusing a townie of flinging bullshit at you.

Have you ever seen a townie attack another townie? It happens. If you flip town, I should be attacked if people think my arguments are scummy, not because of my conclusion. The same for you. When I flip town, you should be attacked for all the scummy arguments you've made, not just simply that you thought I was scum.

I think scum are much more likely to try and disparage cases wantonly like that. I also think town would do a better job of explaining which cases are bullshit and which are at least somewhat legit. I'll read through and see if elvis has done that in the least, or if she's just trying to tear down and discredit instead of scumhunt.

WTF? Try reading before you draw conclusions, because I certainly have responded to the arguments made against me, and in great detail. YOU, on the other hand, have failed to answer most of my responses or question. Maybe that's because you don't care what I say, you only want me dead. A scummy POV if I ever saw one.

For example, you never answered most of my questions on this page.

IF YOU KNOW YOUR OWN TOWNIE PLAYSTYLE, DOESN'T THAT MEAN YOU CAN FAKE IT AS SCUM AND SAY "LOOK AT ME I'M A TOWNIE!"?