Invitational 10: 2005-2006. Game over! before 624

[MrBuddyLee]

Elias,

Do you think that every player in every game should pitch a fit, take their ball and go home to mommy when they're L-3?

Everyone else,

How would you compare and contrast the hissy fits thrown by DGB, elias and elvis when run up?

Personally, I don't see elias accusing anyone of being scummy for their votes on him, he's accusing us of being retarded. Implying the votes on him are retarded town rather than sinister scum...

Whereas DGB seemed to really think I was scum trying to ring her up. Wrong, but was her OMGUS reaction genuine?

[Elias_the_thief]

Elias,

Do you think that every player in every game should pitch a fit, take their ball and go home to mommy when they're L-3?

I dont care at all about being at L-3. What I care about it that no one has provided reasons for voting me that are over a sentence, and I am being considered for todays lynch. I am trying to defend myself, but there is nothing to defend from. Thats why I'm pissed. I wouldnt care if I got lynched. Its just pissing me off that I'm making a fairly large amount of effort and time out of RL to try to get back into this game, and I'm met by reasonless votes. Strong defense is a major part of my play; I love defending myself. Putting me in a situation where I'm supposed to just produce info while being voted without an opportunity to vote pisses me off. That last post let off some necessary steam...I had a fight with my parents earlier today and I guess that crossed over...I just want players to actually explain themselves and their votes. I think I had good points when I pointed out in my bluesoul pbp that no one had solid reasoning. yet no addresses it, i just get votes and an informative "youre scummy when youre angry". And how can you not admit that calling me scummy for not lying is retarded?

[Elias_the_thief]

The point I'm getting at is I feel as if I'm not being allowed to play this game, and not being recognized by the majority of the players in this game. Its hard to concentrate on scumhunting when no one will explain why I'm a candidate for lynch.

[pablito]

I've got approximately 40 pages to write in the next 2 weeks. Sorry for not being around, but work's got me completely. Hence the rampant alcoholism. Yes, I am kinda bored though with this game. I have spurts and secondary winds though. Also, I'm borrowing a wireless connection from some neighbor and it's not perfect. I don't get my router back for another two weeks. Just in case I happen to completely disappear.

This new stuff looks compelling, but I do question how genuine Elias feels. It's genuine frustration no doubt. But the chamber thing from him is kinda extreme. E_K felt the most genuine when being run up - to answer that question. DGB. eh.

with e_k, I get the whole top suspect argument she keeps on mentioning, but I almost think that its repetition is starting to be a curious overkill.

Patrick, why do you doubt that Ether would defend Elias (independent of his alignment)? Why her more than any other person?

chamber's vote doesn't surprise me at all.

DGB's reasons don't look right at all. She is jabbing though, and that is kinda consistent with earlier behavior once suspicion dropped off her. Doesn't make her look less scummy though.

But mostly Elias under pressure is revealing a lot. And the way he's being pretty nonspecific and is going by "previous agenda" before the last vote shows that he has a progression he's been following and doesn't really want to deviate too much away from. Smells scummy to follow his script. If he was town, I'd expect more from him to attack some of the people that are now voting him that were previously on DGB. He's way too defensive.

He also put himself up to a certain expectation and he's showing frustration because he himself can't meet that expectation. Elias never had to promise all these pbps or to actually continue with the game with the early absences, but he chose to do so. In a way, that could be that he's a bit anxious about playing in this game above all others, but there was something very very specific about his last posts that talked all about needing to wait for permission in his other game. No matter what the actual "outside event" was that caused him to keep posting his "will post content later" posts, the fact is that he wasn't really either telling us that he working on it in the meanwhile. It really sounded more like they were excuses for delaying and I think he was really waiting to see if others could give him ammo to deflect in the meanwhile. If the only thing he was waiting for was permission, then I don't see how he couldn't be working on a post int he background at the same time. Then again, he's done this before in the game, so I may excuse him for that.

But I kinda feel that he's focusing extremely on the past when he needs to focus on the present. That's scummy because the past has shown favor on him (we let him off for not-posting, he wasn't the focus, he wants to look back at DGB...etc).

Elias, also, I don't remember excusing you from using some awkward language initially. But whatever reasons I once had, none of it distracts from a lot of the scummy behavior lately. I think what I said earlier was "I understand where you're coming from, but it doesn't mean I see you less scummy". I really think it's the way that Elias is making the town responsible for his need to post certain things and he's been so reactive and less directive. Also "more posts and increased effort" doesn't necessarily mean you'll help us find scum. So whatever I said before Elias, there's more being added.

New thought as well. Elias said something about knowing he was going to vote DGB because he read, but he just hadn't put up his posts about it. That means he lacks a sense of urgency. I wish he would just post what he says (like what he is doing now) but before there was a big hesitance to make a single peep post that commented on anhything. Maybe that's because I am associating that style of response to e_k, who I am more and more seeing as less scummy. I wonder if there's an inverse relationship right now in my mind.

[Patrick]

How would you compare and contrast the hissy fits thrown by DGB, elias and elvis when run up?

DGB's I thought contained a hint of frustrated town. I don't really remember an elvis hissy fit off the top of my head, and elias's is meh. I know he gets pissed off as town and also does it as scum to stay consistent with that. You claim that he didn't call anyone scummy for voting him, which isn't entirely true. I could metagame this and look for games where he's got angry as town and scum, but right now it's not happening. It doesn't set off my scumdar though.

Although it's hardly top priority, what is it that makes you think DBG/elvis/elias doesn't work as a scumteam?

Patrick, why do you doubt that Ether would defend Elias (independent of his alignment)? Why her more than any other person?

As scum commenting on town, I feel like she'd have been more likely to make some kind of use of the opportunity, even if only for the future (I've never really seen her closing off avenues in her admittedly limited scum history). As scum commenting on a partner, I don't think she'd have had the nerve to present such a vague defence in face of the obviously rising suspicion/votes on him; that's partly from what (I think) I know about her. As for the other question, I don't recall anyone else defending elias in a similar way.

[Elias_the_thief]

I forgot chamber was playing... again!

So why is my wagon more popular than DGB's again?

[MrBuddyLee]

Elias, this is the extent to which you've spotted scumminess in the past month:

Though she(elvis)'s had some bad posts late game, she has defended some of the major points against her well and overall improved the quality of her posting. I find her fairly scummy, but less so than DGB. As to whether she is in my top 3, its hard to say as I've only fully analized two players as thoroughly as I should.

(Which sounds an awful lot like a scumbag walking the tightrope re: their mate)

DGB: Gives no explanation other than that she believes I'm buddies to elvis. Scummy as hell.

So you've found 1 1/2 people who are scummy. I think you've cleared bluesoul of significant suspicion. If you can't find more people who are scummy, it's likely that you are the third scumbag.

Do you have a list of three or four scumbags off the top of your head before you continue your PBPAs?

[DrippingGoofball]

I like how he's reduced my contribution to merely "more scummy than elvis."

I can't believe that he hasn't found bluesoul a teensy bit scummy after his PBPA.

Let's lynch Elias, and find out for sure.

[Elias_the_thief]

I found chambers lack of posting and content scummy at first, but after noting that people with better metas claimed he never posts much content, I checked other games and the point is really a null tell.

Sarcastro had an equal lack of posting, and content in his posts. His main contribution was the question to bluesoul, which was good, but generally nothing impressive. Then Bird comes in and really doesnt post much of worth either.

I dont really have strong reads on the other players.

[bluesoul]

bored town

Pretty much, I think we're chasing shadows at this point. If you're bored you're at least hiding it better than I am. At this point I'll vote whoever's closest to lynch just so we can get to some real info to chew on (ad nauseam) tomorrow. I believe that's elias though so I'm good for now.

Let me explain the hostage comment, in context.

When a list mod gives me mod powers and I get my OP up for FFVII, I'll deliver.

You know, that's pretty fucking lame of you. Why are you holding this game hostage because you want to start another game? That's pathetic.

You have to realize how that sounds to me, whether it's what you meant or not (you've stated repeatedly you don't think about your wording). To me it sounds like you have a PBPA of me ready to go, and you're ready to post it...but you're refusing, because mith hasn't given you mod powers for a game outside of this one. To have you promise content, promise content, promise content, and then welch on it is a great way to evoke a response out of me much to the effect of what you've already seen. I am not saying that's what happened, I'm saying that's how it appeared.

Regarding the PBPA itself, there are some minor issues I could bring up but it's a point-of-view thing (see the above paragraph for more POV shenanigans), the only real concern is that once I start targeting you the analysis went from phrases like "good, circular logic, correct/incorrect" to "bullshit, needless, and retarded". The crux of this would be 612.

*shrug*

This game is uninteresting to me and I lack the motivation to get caught up. I dont think this should have any reflection on my alignment. I'm sorry that I underestimated the task of staying caught up while missing weeks at a time.

...

I hope that this will give you guys at least some sort of read on me going into day two, and that it will motivate me to get back in the game.

The onus is not on us to make you play the damn game. Get your head into it or ask to be replaced, don't make us wait another day because you don't feel like playing right now.

Unvote, vote Elias

Analysis:

612: bullshit vote against me. later explains it as starting discussion, but leaves his vote on me.

Call it whatever you want, I choose to call it a valid attack. The phrase "This game is uninteresting to me and I lack the motivation to get caught up. " gives me precious little faith in your ability to play the game. (It sounds like something that would come out of the mouth of a slacker kid with a pile of paperwork to slog through, and as my dad would say it sounds like a personal problem to me.) Before you take issue with that realize that in the timeframe the comment was made you hadn't posted in two weeks. I had no reason to believe it was going to change.

"Starting discussion" in retrospect had little to do with voting you, you were pissing me off and I wasn't gonna miss you much if you happened to get dead. Your activity since then has been good but you want to know why I'm voting you now? DGB's not likely to get lynched so you're my second option, the wagon's decent sized, there's been good reactions to go by and, as I've been saying for a month or so, I'd still like to see someone safely dangling rather than get deadlined. In fact, DGB's sentiments are the same as mine, only she'd rather see e_k lynched but the wagon dissolved so you're her second choice. I don't believe you're any more blatantly scummy than our last two potential wagons, but at the moment I'd be inclined to call it a safe play, with the alternative being bird as I don't think he or Sarc have proven themselves either way yet. But I go back to the very top of this post, the town's running from wagon to wagon, chasing shadows and not committing, so I'm not gonna push for a bird wagon at the moment, but I will echo MBL's sentiment that he needs to establish protown credibility.

And Elias, 691 was chamber baiting you and you took it hook, line, and sinker. /golfclap Chamber.

I'm somewhat surprised to say that DGB has backed off my scumdar significantly recently. It's a marked playstyle change recently, I can't decide if that's in itself scummy.

BTW, I have power again but the whole state got raped so no promises while they fool with powerlines for the next week. Not foreseeing any issues though.

[HackerHuck]

Sorry about my absence. Battery almost dead and I'm about 80% done with a post. I'll get it in tomorrow.

[ChannelDelibird]

Here's the deal. I am no nearer to getting a post done and I am about to leave for uni. I don't expect to have time to catch up properly today before I go, and I will be without internet access certainly for one day, probably for one or two more after that, as I get settled in, buy things I forgot to bring, etc, etc. Around the weekend I should be able to do all that posting I promised you but if you'd rather replace me I won't hold it against you. (I don't

want

to be replaced...)

[elvis_knits]

I think it's cool how half the players in this game have been inactive for long stretches of time and lurkers have been replaced with lurkers.

[HackerHuck]

This is a little scattered, because it's been compiled from my notes from separate reading sessions.

I guess I did not hit the details that you were looking for MBL.
When it comes to Chamber, a few of the posts that I really liked:
126 and 215 were particularly good. I also feel that his opinion of DGB - and how he flipped on her quickly for the odd claim - is pro-town.

Regarding Pablito, I don’t really see a good introductory post as being a real big indicator of alignment, but he did a good job upon replacing in, giving some actual insights and not just tacking on to others’ statements. I did like how he picked up on the Supersaint discussion. Maybe it’s because it totally flew by me during my readthroughs. I find his general suspicion of Ether very interesting. I hadn’t really tacked her onto my scum list and coupling his comments to your question regarding the possibility of her being scum pretending to be helpful, I’m going to keep an eye out for her. Pablito is playing to form in my opinion. I don’t really have an alignment driven meta on him, but I don’t see anything out of the ordinary – including the posting while drunk. It is a noteworthy that those comments seem to come up about two-thirds of the way through the posts. It could be a bit of a crutch for him to start off strong and then just post some filler to appear helpful.

I really don’t have a good answer on Ether. Even to this point, she appears helpful, but I’m not getting a feeling that she’s scum trying to be helpful. I think that’s more of a gut call anyway.

I also didn’t give my top three. I’m going to do that a little later in this post, while I do find it a bit funny that MBL’s top three contains four people.

As for what’s happened recently, I have actually been paying attention.

CDB concerns me with the way he dropped off the wagon. Patrick then tries to really take the wind out of the sails by starting off a little heavy on Elias and then directing his attention to the newly replaced. It’s a good time to be asking questions, so it may not be as suspicious as I first interpreted it. He also wanted to get more info from Ether, but didn’t really have anything to say about her sizable post.

Bird’s entry looks pretty solid to me. I got a little turned about at the end though – his wrap up didn’t seem to follow the rest of the post. This quote is rather puzzling…

bluesoul: The whole assuming that the 30% came from inside information is the only thing scummy I really see from him. Liking the fact that he brought up the deadline issue. Don't like the fact that he chose to ignore chamber's vote just because chamber refused to elaborate. Find him scummy.

I usually find most players give me townie vibes when replacing in - I may have said that already - but I feel that Bird might be trying to be townie with his line of questioning in his recent posts.

Nice tidbit from Elias about PJ in 615 -

PJ basically ignores this entire conversation however, and posts a wall-o-text addressing basically everyone but DGB.

Oddly enough, it came from his analysis of DGB, so he didn’t really seem to do anything with that observation. I’m not keen on his response to the question of why he just used DGB’s analysis of Elvis and commented on it. I can understand evaluating a case on someone, but he was supposed to be putting together his thoughts on Elvis, not evaluating DGB’s case. If he wanted to use someone else’s analysis – and I don’t see a problem with that – it would be better to base it off of someone you don’t think is scum, and also to address all of the points made against Elvis. Chamber wins more t

br

ownie points from me for his pestering of Elias on this issue.

I find both Pablito’s and Elvis’ responses to DGB’s vote on Elias to be a little odd.

Elvis wants to get going on lynching DGB, but still votes for CDB because it’s better not to be a broken record. There’s almost a little OMGUS seeping out in these posts again. She’s also starting to treat Goofball like BattleMage used to be treated. It always makes me nervous when people are happy to lynch townies because they aren’t being useful.

I think DGB is treating Elias appropriately and fully agree with 673.
I have quite a few problems with Elias right now. He’s basically giving the appearance of playing the game – I’m not opposed to keeping pressure on him for this reason. I haven’t looked at his posts in isolation, but in reading contextually I find that a lot of his posts revolve around him and his lurking. He’s either explaining it away, or responding to questions about his lurking and availability. Of his few PbPs, they aren’t really as helpful as they appear. They show that he’s gone through and read the individual player’s posts, but it’s pretty light on analysis and conclusions. He basically admitted to having DGB as his prime suspect and not finding Elvis scummy, prior to even doing those analyses. He almost put more into his complaint about people voting for him than he did in his pbp on BlueSoul (post 688). I’m not certain whether he’s scum pretending to be helpful/present or whether he’s tired of getting called out and is just trying to do anything to get the pressure of himself. I also find it odd that he focused his recent response to MBL on Chamber and Sarcastro and really tries to paint those two as being scummy for lack of posting and content :S

I would like to reiterate that I’m unhappy with the dissolution with the E_K wagon, because there doesn’t seem to be much reason for it. Once one person bailed, many others jumped ship for weak or no reasons and I’ve seen a lot of pressure-type votes in their place.

Top 3
Elvis, Bird111 (mostly from Sarcastro's play), and Pablito or maybe Elias.

No Goofball. I don’t see her as that scummy, and I’m not making a connection between her and DGB. The back and forth between those two does not seem to be covering up any inside information.

Elvis – still there. I may have been a little more likely to let her slip away for another day had her wagon been derailed by a better wagon. Instead, I give the replacements/lurker a chance to post and people get cold feet. I don’t like wagons I can’t explain, but I also haven’t taken the time to evaluate everyone who participated and how it moved from beginning to end.

I’ve been skating a bit. Sorry about that, but work’s been a nightmare and internet has been a little spotty – bluehost has also caused me a few problems. I got dialup now, so I will be able to keep up better when the cable company lets me down.


Could someone point me to the most recent vote count? They've been alternating between isolated mod posts and being stuck in someone elses post and I'm unable to find a recent one.

[MrBuddyLee]

I do find it a bit funny that MBL’s top three contains four people.

Top 3
Elvis, Bird111 (mostly from Sarcastro's play), and Pablito or maybe Elias.

LOL.

[Elias_the_thief]

I think DGB is treating Elias appropriately and fully agree with 673.
I have quite a few problems with Elias right now. He’s basically giving the appearance of playing the game – I’m not opposed to keeping pressure on him for this reason.

How is this an attack? Are you saying I'm not actually playing?

I haven’t looked at his posts in isolation, but in reading contextually I find that a lot of his posts revolve around him and his lurking. He’s either explaining it away, or responding to questions about his lurking and availability.

Because that was the bulk of early attacks on me. Many of the players voting me had not explained why they were doing so until very recently, so I assumed it was the lurking issue and thus Ive directed much of my defense to that issue.

Of his few PbPs, they aren’t really as helpful as they appear. They show that he’s gone through and read the individual player’s posts, but it’s pretty light on analysis and conclusions.

True enough. I'm not a very strong scumhunter. If you want to read my other games, I'm actually very weak as a scumhunter. Maybe not very helpful, but this shouldnt be a scumtell given my playstyle. If I knew how to find scum, my town record wouldnt be below .500.

He basically admitted to having DGB as his prime suspect and not finding Elvis scummy, prior to even doing those analyses.

Why is this a scumtell? DGB was my prime suspect from earlier in the game. I had no strong read on Elvis. How is admitting this in the least bit scummy, and anything other than indicative of how out of the game I was?

He almost put more into his complaint about people voting for him than he did in his pbp on BlueSoul (post 688).

See my point about my scumhunting. It takes no skill to be pissed off, while it takes skill to come up with analysis. I'm much better as scum than town, that much is obvious. And I'm much better at expressing a natural emotion than interpretting posts.

I’m not certain whether he’s scum pretending to be helpful/present or whether he’s tired of getting called out and is just trying to do anything to get the pressure of himself.

The second one =/

I also find it odd that he focused his recent response to MBL on Chamber and Sarcastro and really tries to paint those two as being scummy for lack of posting and content :S

Um...paint them as scummy? EXTREMELY slanted word choice there. MBL explicitly asked me who else I found suspicious before I finished my PBP's. How is mentioning my two minor suspects in any way really trying to paint them as scummy? This is the most retarded attack on me to date.

Top 3
Elvis, Bird111 (mostly from Sarcastro's play), and Pablito or maybe Elias.

Your number two is sarcastro's replacement basically for the same reason that I have, sarcs scummy lurking. How can you possibly attack my reasons for suspecting sarbirdro? Inconsistent much?

This is from school, so I cant post much more. I'll respond to other attacks on me in a bit.

[MrBuddyLee]

Elias,

It sounds like you're saying that you suck at town because you don't know how to scumhunt, and you excel at scum because you are good at expressing faux-indignance.

1) Do you usually get lynched or NKed or endgamed as town?
2) Are you typically more of a lurker as scum or town?
3) Do you traditionally bus your partners aggressively as scum?
4) Are you busing any of your scumpartners in this game, or are they playing well enough that you don't have to?
5) Are you typically somewhat indifferent as town, or do you give it your all?

[pablito]

One of my favorite scumtells is a player referring to outside material. While playing a metagame is fine and conceptualizing others as such is standard - actually acknowledging and *pointing* to other games tends to be scummy for me. It's a way of deflection because the player's game is not very internally reliable. If a player does not have a cohesive gamestyle within that one specific game, a townplayer will try hard to put things through - a scummy defense is to point "well look over there, I was just like that too!". It's scummy because a person can pick and choose what to refer to. A metagame is based on memory and research as well but that's because the person decided to look there.

Elias has done this twice. Once in terms of his language something about the town standpoint. And I already attacked him on it. And now again here about scumhunting. Elias does not feel comfortable with his own game in this invitational to rely on it. While this can be overt frustration, it didn't start until he had to be on the defense. While his last post feels a little better, I doubt that I will be moving my vote for a while.

I like Hackerhuck's post a lot. He really put thought into it and I hope he continues like this. I have to wonder though at the same time how much of it was because he wanted to portray himself much much differently than Elias. But at the moment, I'll give benefit of the doubt and I think he really wanted to do a post like that. Hackerhuck's opinion on Elias PBPs is exactly like my opinion on birds entry posts as well.

I kinda wish chamber would go back to some lengthy posts as well. He seems bored, but not to the point where he's completely abandoning. Doesn't feel too good for me at the moment.

[HackerHuck]

I didn't realise that I was being lumped into the same category as Elias, so I wasn't trying to portray myself in any way relative to him.

I also agree with Pablito's point about players referencing their own metas as a defence. Obviously if you are aware of how you play as scum versus town, that basically makes any meta meaningless and unusable as a defence.

It's also a poor excuse to say that you must be town because you're not playing well. I would also say that I'm generally a better scum player than town, but I've certainly bombed some games as scum.

Elias- how was my word choice extremely slanted? What are you suspicious of them for if it's not for them being scummy? You also seemed to miss the point of why I mentioned that. How is it that their lack of posting and content is any more or less scummy than yours? And was Sarcastro scummy or not?

How is mentioning my two minor suspects in any way really trying to paint them as scummy?...Your number two is sarcastro's replacement basically for the same reason that I have, sarcs scummy lurking.

I kind of see your point about Sarcastro. I didn't realise that I hadn't posted everything I had in my notes, because I referenced it a little bit indirectly. It goes back to his comment about Bluesoul somehow knowing the scum could/couldn't talk before the game started. He was very overdefencive about that, continuing on for way too long for a supposedly non-serious comment. Additionally, he seems to be pretty jokey throughout and is using that to back off of any of his more controversial comments when called on them. The comment about DGB and Elvis was mainly a continuation of what I said about your PbPs not being very helpful. You had already said how you felt about those two and your PbPs didn't bring anything new to your opinion.

MBL - I wish I could take credit for the irony there, but that was a result of cobbling together that post over a few days. I also LOLed when I saw your response.

[MrBuddyLee]

I read a few recent CDB games and have now decided that my previous meta on him is useless. His game's come a long way, and he's capable scum. No read on him until I reread more carefully.

[DrippingGoofball]

Let me know when the mood strikes you to lynch somebody.

[Thestatusquo]

College has been kicking my ass votecount

DGB: 2

(Bird1111 elias)

Elias: 5

(Bluesoul, Pablito, DGB, Mr.Buddylee chamber)

Elvis_Knits 3

(chamber, Patrick, ether)

CDB: 1

(Elvis)

not voting: 1

(hacker huck)

[DrippingGoofball]

Let's make the race interesting. I'm willing to move my vote to elvis to see how the votes will move.

unvote, vote: elvis

Now, they're 4:4.

Either one needs 3 to be lynched.

GO GO GO

[HackerHuck]

It's not a hammer, but I'll put my money where my mouth is.

Vote: Elvis_Knits

[chamber]

Let's make the race interesting. I'm willing to move my vote to elvis to see how the votes will move.

unvote, vote: elvis

Now, they're 4:4.

Either one needs 3 to be lynched.

GO GO GO

As much as I wish i had 2 votes I don't so actually you made it 4-3 and with hacks vote its 4-4