Mini 635: WOMAFIA - Forbiddanlight + Vagina-Haters win!

[Incognito]

You and Vivian I think. We'll see how Vivian responds anyway.

Vote Count:
nonny (1) - LG
viv - (1) - incog

Not voting: nonny, viv, forbiddanlight

[forbiddanlight]

Yeah, viv and LG have my scumdar pinged so far. And the way you put the Viv case makes more sense. I guess I wanted to think the best of her for some reason so I could validate my current suspicions of Gurgi to myself. I'll reread Gurgi and yourself later, but I think Viv has been caught out through your analysis...

Also, I'm a masochist, LG. You can't beat that in terms of pain tolerance.

[Lord Gurgi]

I don't think I can beat your pain tolerance, no.

I don't expect that I will be changing my vote any time soon.

[forbiddanlight]

I don't think I can beat your pain tolerance, no.

Though we could try. I know a few good doms that are good with a whip and excellent at exquisitly painful knots .

Anyway, I should probably do the LG PBPA

[Lord Gurgi]

I believe I have the most posts in the game, and a lot of them are rather content free, like this one!

At this point I am just so dang sure that Nonny is scum.

[forbiddanlight]

Lord Gurgi PBPA:

I am in no way confirmed, please don't.

Other than that, DBE is at L-3. I still don't think that what she said is particularly scummy, just not particularly smart.

Just to point something out, Falcone, who in this game haven't you FOS'd, IGMEOY'd, or Voted?

It takes 20 posts, but this is the first really pro town thing I noticed besides the initial miller claim. A lot of one liner noise and null tells at start :s.

Well I usually find DBE scummy, but for whatever reason I'm not getting that read this game. I'm also not seeing farside as town, in fact closer to scum, which is throwing me off, because I usually get a town read off her.

Scumlist ATM:
1. Farside22
2. Nonny
3. Mariyta

I actually see this list as indicating slight towniness depending on how he uses it. If he were scum and bussing two of his buddies this early I'd have to wonder at his sanity :S.

Well I'd kill Spacecase, otherwise xyzzy. They aren't helping the town, and I doubt they will be lynched for it. By fire be purged and all that.

Anyway, can we get everyone to give a top 3 scumlist and townlist? Anyone who puts themselves on their townlist I will vote for.

Scum
1. Farside22
2. FaerieLord
3. Nonny

Town
1. ThAdmiral
2. Elvis_Knits
3. Mirth

That's it. Maybe this will start some decent discussion.

This is actually anti town. (also, ThAdmiral must have been amazingly townie to beat the mod, yet somehow got lynched D2 :S). Townlists are more so because it gives the scum too much information for who to night kill and helps the town in pretty much no way whatsoever.

Sorry, didn't know that was taboo.

Nyeh, I forgot the theory myself at first.

I'm sorry, is this a scum-tell? Why do you care? It was just a mistake, what's the issue?

Slightly overdefensive, but understandable.

If DarlaBlueEyes does become more active, I will vote Spacecase, but until then I am not going to participate in the lurker lynching. I am still sure about Farside22.

Bussing your godfather (as scum) so hard this early is interesting. I'd almost think it was impossible, but you might not have seen the case growing, or it might even have been trying to pre empt the inevitable response to her behavior. Not sure what to make.

I believe I already answered that, I'm not pushing your wagon at the moment, not anymore than saying I'm sure at any rate, but as soon as you slip up, I'll be there. Smile

This is where you start to get scummy because the gut usually goes off something you didn't consciously notice, and you should probably recheck to find out what that is or drop it.

He narrows it down to Falcone, ThAdmiral, or Xyzzy...

Not any tell (though in theory this could be slightly scummy to point out and make obvious), but it's funny because Falcone WAS the other mason .

Can we get your rolename and picture please. The fact that it's dribbling out is not encouraging.

Townie response I'd think.

Yes it does Farside, my suspicion of you is that feeling that makes me think that you are scum, regardless of the lack of incriminating evidence. I'm not going to vote for someone if I do not think they have a chance of being lynched, and this is especially pertinent at deadline.

Why not then, but now on nonny.

I would also like to assure the mod that this is game related. It's um... An advanced scum hunting technique, yeah that's it!

Yeah, you caught me. I'm the only non sewing girl left, Obv scum here.

Vote: Farside. As per my reasoning yesterday.

What reasoning? It's odd you didn't want to vote on gut D1, but suddenly it's ok?

Upon a quick reread: She asked me why I would have my picture and didn't lean heavily either way on the issue of my claim. Also she tried to straw-man all the metas being used on her, on the basis that people disagree, which is ludicrous, because there's always dispute over meta. Putting me on her LoS because I think she's suspicious but up till now I haven't given any reasoning, which for me is not a scum-tell, especially to the point of #2 on her LoS, which would, with the lynch of DBE make me #1 for not giving reasons for voting her.

How many votes is it to lynch?

Bout time, too bad you had to be pressed for anything beyond gut.

1. I state I am suspicious of her.
2. She asks why.
3. I say I am not sure why.
4. She puts me on her LoS.
5. I say that's scummy.

I suppose it's double OMGUS in some ways.

What I am saying Nonny, is that my WIFOM is best resolved with a night kill. Not by wasting a lynch.

Odd request for either side, and to point it out again seems to be saying HAY GAIZ! I'M SO TOWN I'M SACCING MYSELF!

Incog is it all right with you if I don't respond to your PBP? I read it don't get me wrong, but I said I would respond to it, but I really can't work up the interest as his response was better than anything you could have brought against him, short of a screenshot of his inbox getting a scum role.

Following that logic I am going to Unvote; Vote: ThAdmiral.

It's an obvious bandwagon, but somewhat excusable since I remember his reaction was what made me redirect my attention to ThAdmiral.

Let's see. I would vote for Farside, but I expect that there are two scum so four to lynch means they could quick her if she's not scum. I don't think Farside is back for another day to explain what she did.

And now a defense of farside. It's somewhat valid but you were so sure earlier in the day...

Finally someone who doesn't disregard me as town for my claim. I don't think of scum in terms of partnerships, I find them individually, sure once a scum is dead then you go back and look, but speculation before their alignments are known is detrimental to the process IMO.

Vote: Farside22. I am done holding my vote.

Nyeh...well, at least you do it. Not sure if you were pressured or not though :S.

Vivian: Not all of my suspicions are based solely in evidence like some other people. I just don't play that way. And I don't know about you, but when I sleep on something my thoughts will change or become more confirmed.

I really don't buy that Vivian is a real newbie, he/she is trying too hard at this point.

Nyeh, this almost feels like "I did it because I knew I wasn't going to get out of how farside flipped if I wasn't on the wagon".

A fair amount of posts on farside and claiming, but willing to hammer even without claim. Nothing either way really.

I'm paying way too much for this internet, and I really don't have the time to bring up a full case, and on top of that I really don't think my case building skills are worth the effort. I'll try and bring something together soon though.

I personally feel you should always build a case no matter how much your "case building skills" suck. To not want to do it is slightly scummy because it's avoiding giving information that the town can use. Also, lots of fluff at this point, but everyone was into it.

For two days you had absolutely no idea who you thought was scum, at least enough to vote for?

This is actually a fair point, but kinda null in a way. I agree she should have voted but this feels like deflection.

In the end, I've responded to most of the latest posts, and I'm unimpressed. At the moment, Gurgi is my scum pick, though as I said I see Viv as a possibility too. I guess it's kinda right now I feel about 65% LG and 45% Viv. Yes, I am seriously awesome enough to suspect people 110%. No, do the math, I did it myself. I can be HYPERsuspicious . Anyway, I'm probably going to vote Gurgi but in the end all I have left to do is PBPA Incog and then I'm DONE WITH PBPAS THIS GAME! SO THAR.

[forbiddanlight]

To do Incog, we must begin with spacecase's 17 posts, but to be honest, they won't shed much light, since spacecase was scummy, lurked, and finally made a sketchy claim. This counts slightly against Incog. So, I'll just go right into that.

Hi, all. I'm replacing Spacecase. YAY FOR ESTROGEN!

I don't have internet access at home yet since I just moved, so I saved this whole game onto a Word document and have been reading it over the weekend while typing up notes. I should be able to get involved with this game sometime during the week. Just to confirm though, yes, I'm the extremely sXc, perky left boob also known as Falcone's Mason buddy.

Claim confirm. pretty expected

I realize that farside22 currently has 3 votes, and I should mention that I don't mind the farside22-hate at all. I found myself nodding along with Falcone's case against her and noticed a few other things about her play that I wasn't particularly fond of. I'll try to get into those things later but at this point in the game, I think a counterwagon might be helpful.

To be honest, this could be token redirection. Sure, a farside wagon is nice, but did you SEE THIS GUY!? But, I also feel you earnestly wanted both lynched.

Why does ThAdmiral come across as townish? I'd be interested in your comments about my case against him when you get around to posting.

Mari's ThAdmiral defense is interesting and forms an interesting dichotomy between you and her. It's possible distancing but I personally think it's just Mari trying to have something to make herself look townie.

That's cool with me. Don't get it twisted -- I still think that farside22 would make great fertilizer, but I really think either one of them are viable lynches as this point. You and forbiddanlight seem to have great taste.

More token farside stuff (but you also followed through D3) I guess I don't like the feel of reassertation of "well, I'd vote farside but ThAdmiral is scummier"

Pinkies of suspicion are deadly.

Whoops on me, lol.

Vote: farside22

Seriously, she needs to die already. That hammer without even waiting for a ThAdmiral-claim was scummy as hell. I'm glad Mariyta died too as she was next on my suspicions list - farside22's hammer looked like an "OMG lemme get this in before Mariyta has to comment" type of post especially after I specifically asked for a Mariyta-prod.

Yeah, this is good follow through, though a reconsideration would have been nice. When you screw up, you generally want to make the next day better by rethinking your case. But this might be playstyle.

Actually, I kinda am. You and nonny (and possibly others) may argue that while masons typically know who their buddy is, their alignment isn't confirmed unless stated in their role PM and that may make one scum and the other town. That, however, is with typical mason pairs. Falcone and I were "searching masons" which is a less powerful role than your typical mason pair and that in and of itself should provide enough evidence to convince you and anyone else of my towniness. To suggest otherwise is absurd.

As for jumping on the next person, it's partly a matter of my playstyle: I tend to go after my suspicions fairly strongly even if I'm wrong once or twice. Aside from that, I think I'm completely justified for doing so in this case. I can think of absolutely no pro-town reason for farside22 to hammer when and how she did. Can you think of one? I got no impression from farside22's posting that she even thought ThAdmiral was scum. Yes, she wrote up a text wall in response to his defense, she shot another couple of questions at him two days later, but she never really revealed what she thought of his alignment. She just decided to pop up out of the blue, warn us about her future V/LA, and switch her vote to ThAdmiral for the hammer after both Falcone and me were clearly pushing for him to claim.

farside22 slithered away during Day 1 and Day 2, but she is certainly not slithering away this time.

Aside from that, I am certainly slightly curious about the second kill. I'd like to see nonny's response as to why she suggested a bus driver kind of role; I've never really seen that suggestion thrown out there before when trying to figure out reasons for a second kill. Also keep in mind that we had a Doctor in this set-up - it's certainly possible that Mirth might have protected the right person during N1 so I don't think ruling out a second scum team or some kind of anti-town killing role is possible.

Fair points, but I refuse to accept anyone as confirmed unless the mod (or a dead cop) said so, either through flip or innocent child, etc.

Well, your first 35 posts are pretty well pro town. I'd quote more but I really don't see myself seriously casing you.

Unvote

I'm only unvoting to prevent a self-hammer. farside22 is still today's lynch, but I want a bit more discussion before today ends (like your analysis, forbiddanlight and I want a bit more from nonny as well). Plus we totally need to mass claim. farside22 might as well start it off.

My mistake, I wasn't counting votes. I probably should have been and avoided putting her at L-1 :S.

forbiddanlight, if FL is who he says he is and he kills tonight, the worst case scenario is he hits town. Scum will likely NK him leaving us at 3:1. In that case, we'd likely have to No Lynch bringing us down to endgame.

I really do think he should kill tonight. Maybe we should come to a consensus as to whom he should kill in the limited amount of time we have?

There's a lot of pro town but this also sticks out to me since this is BAD to waste a lynch like this. A vig kill at that point would be a horrid move when you could have a full day to discuss a lynch. I'd just like to point this out.

Basically, from there on it's a fairly good exchange of fluff and pro town comments. Really, the only reason I'd ever go for your lynch is if it were F3 with mod confirmed innocent, me, and you. I can't see any other way you'd be scum. I don't want to sound like I'm taking you for granted but most of your posts this game have been townie and I only have that disagreement on your idea that FL should vig.

[forbiddanlight]

In the end, the only conclusion I can come to is

Vote:LG

. To be honest, all of you have a fairly town review, with LGs and Viv's being the least town in comparison. And LG's seemed to be the least pro town and slightly scummy at some points. In the end, that's all I have.

[Vivian Darkblaam]

Yeah, that reread made me feel really good about this.

Is this a case?

That was not a case but this is.

Va- V. V is for Vote and V is for Vivian.

Vote: Vivian Darkblaam

I think Vivian is an evil vagina-hater. I'm completely ignoring my other points with respect to her play about how I felt she was feigning newbishness since she has already defended herself against those points and perhaps I was wrong about that. Either way, I think her play aside from those points is indicative of her being scum in this game:

Boy does somebody have a stick up her vagina. The rigid layout of the post matches the utter lack of a sense of humor, so I guess it's consistent, but it feels forced for whatever reason.

FOS

We start off with this FoS which was directed at Falcone. I've mentioned at least once or twice how this FoS just completely rubs me the wrong way. Her explanation for the FoS came later in this post:

Vivian, I'm not sure I understand the first part of your post. Clarify a bit please?

Falcone's post struck me as very odd. It had formatted headings and was written in very formal language. His accusations of you were largely based on not getting your jokes. The style behind it would have to be affected intentionally. A very serious player would use formal language and not get some jokes. A player who is

trying

to be very serious would use formal headings and get no jokes. I FOSed, because rigid seriousness of that type is sometimes used to hide scummy actions. (IMO, Vollkan does this all the time)

Apparently her reasoning for her FoS has to do with the fact that usage of formatted headings and structure is scummy because Vivian is familiar with this type of play coming from a vollkan-scum. I find this argument very flawed for a number of reasons, and I'm really surprised that a player of NabNab's calabre would even use it as a reason to FoS someone. Just because you find this type of play in a vollkan-scum doesn't necessarily mean this tell goes across the board to every single player. I would think Vivian would have maybe meta-gamed Falcone a bit to try and see if this formality stuff is more consistent with a Falcone-scum play rather than town but Vivian did no such thing. To actually throw out a formal FoS for it just seems like Vivian was trying to cast suspicion onto Falcone for very weak reasons hoping something might catch wind and be taken further.


Also, I find this play really out-of-character from Vivian's overall play. My feeling about her play so far leads me to believe that she's played very cautiously and has tried to weigh possibilities to not jump to conclusions so suddenly. When I presented my case on ThAdmiral for example, Vivian actually referenced a previous game that she had been in with ThAdmiral as NabNab so that

should

indicate that she does in fact believe in meta-gaming's usefulness. To throw out an FoS without doing the proper homework beforehand seems really awful to me.

Actually, I have yet to fully correlate overly logical posting with a Vollkan-scum meta (he's far too good of a player for that) - notice the "IMO". The idea of rigid formality being used to gloss over scummy actions has been something I've only ever accused Vollkan of, I've never successfully pinned it on him. If you actually look at the post in question though, I would think that I was somewhat justified. Falcone's reasons for voting for Mirth

were

profoundly humorless and generally pretty thin/forced. If, by some twist of fate, Falcone had lived and I had died, you could have made similar accusations based on his post as you are making based on mine. Could I have metaed Falcone to see if this his how he really played? Sure. But it was Page 4, and I wanted to hear it out of his mouth if only to pull the game into a discussion spiral.

Moving on.

@farside: I'll accept you being suspicious of somebody for not scumhunting, but why DBE? Why on page 5? Why after that post?

I think it is pretty obvious that you're backpedaling (one word, one "d"), but I usually think backpaddling hard enough to rock the boat is not something scum often do. Farsidescum would have backed entirely off of DBE when challenged by Falcone. Arguing the point to a nub is something people do when they've actually made up their minds about something, not when they're pretending to have.

I'll bite my tongue on Mariyta for the time being, but let it be known that the clock is ticking.

I dislike this post for a number of reasons.

1) Vivian tries to explain away farside's actions by providing thoughts on what she feels a farside-scum would be likely to do in this situation with DBE ("Farsidescum would have backed entirely off when challenged by Falcone"). My issue with this though is prior to this Vivian-explanation, farside22 did exactly what Vivian said farside would do as scum in her Post 129. Why exactly did Vivian still use this point to defend farside22's actions when farside pretty clearly did back off the point she had with DBE and switched her vote over to Mariyta? Yes, farside22 did still place an "IGMEOY" on DBE after switching her vote, but I still think 129 can be considered a back-off since it practically had to be forced out of her.

By the time I had made that post, Falcone had already begun a case based on Farside's accusations of DBE and the ensuing argument. My comment was a response to Falcone's assertion that farside's deteriorating argument to lynch DBE (which had since ended) was scummy (whew). Farside did eventually back down, but only after exhausting all options, something Falcone said was scummy and I said was not. Turns out I was wrong.

2) The whole "clock is ticking stuff" with Mariyta. Here was Vivian's explanation to this point that I brought up previously:

-I tend to extend the benefit of the doubt to poor or infrequent players (try reading the section midway through 458 where I coin the term "Villiage Idiot") more than most and sometimes more than I should. My main goal in saying that the "clock is ticking" to Mari was to get her to say something of significance. I didn't want to should "lurker!" because that probably would not have promoted participation. When Mari did produce the post you disected, I saw that she was pretty much lost at sea when it came to analysis. Lots of non-sequiters and vague generalizations. Now we can see that this was just her attempt at being scummy, but at the time it kind of just made me sigh.

Why do I find this explanation so dubious? Because Vivian clearly

wasn't

extending the benefit of the doubt to "poor or infrequent players" when she ended up voting for DarlaBlueEyes here. DarlaBlueEyes was more clearly a newbie player when compared to Mariyta. You can look at the "Join Dates" for proof. Mariyta's been on this site for two years now while Darla just got here this year. If anyone deserved the benefit of the doubt, it would be DBE rather than Mariyta. Even FaerieLord who Vivian also ended up voting later on during Day 1 might have deserved more benefit of the doubt than Mariyta but again, she chose not to extend this to him either. I don't think it's a coincidence that Mariyta ended up being the scum while DBE and FL ended up being town.

I think my opinion regarding DBE and FL as compared to Mariyta is influenced by the fact that I've played with DBe and Fl before and found them to be somewhat competent players (do you really feel that FaerieLord played like a newb? Do you really think joindate is the deciding factor in these things?) Additionally, Mariyta was the only one to make an appeal to newbishness with her string of "but I don't want to get yelled at posts". The post that you refrence as my vote was made far before I could have formed an opinion on whether or not Darla should be considered a newb.

Continuing. We have this:

I'll break my scumlist into players I suspect for their content and players I suspect for their lack of content.

Both lists go from most scummy to least scummy.

The releative scuminess of players on different lists is up in the air.

this:

[quote="Vivian Darkblaam, in Post 239 who had farside at the top of her suspicions "content suspicions list","]For their content:
-Farside: She has a bit of a point on DBE (see below), but Falcone's trumps hers. Her accusations of Darla are opportunisitc and completely outside the bounds of natural scumhunting. When someone puts a player's

random vote

in their case, you know something's up.

this:

[quote="Vivian Darkblaam, in Post 239 who had FL listed as number 3 in his "lack of content" list,"]For their lack of content:
-FaerieLord: I barely even notice she's here. A quick isolation just shows a lot of fluff. That's not good.[/quote]

and then this:

I wouldn't be comfortable answering the "insta-lynch" question right now as so many of the players I'm eyeing I have insufficient information on. I could pick Farside right now, but what do I do if FL responds particuarlly scummily to this?

Unvote; Vote: FaerieLord

Why vote for person number 3 in your "lack of content" list rather than say person number 1 on your "content list" or even person number 1 on your "lack of content" list? Also of note, Vivian again mentions the "clock is ticking" stuff. More coaching?

I simply wasn't confident that farside was scum at the time. She had posted suspicious content, but what I was seeing of her didn't warrant another vote on her wagon. At the time I posted, there was no deadline (IIRC), and I felt it was more important to shine some light on those I saw as lurkers than to wagon a person I wasn't confident about. Instead of following, I scumhunted

Spacecase's claim seems poorly thought-out in the extreme. My guess: he's a cult-leader of some sort. Independent research has led me to believe that there is no image to post, but I could be wrong.

This post seems like a really odd explanation for Spacecase's claim. Again, the guy was pretty clearly new to the game of Mafia. Do you really think he would go out on a limb as a newbie player and claim something off the wall like that as a cult leader? This feels more like you realize there was still a chance Spacecase could be lynched and you were trying to discredit his mason claim by coming up with an imaginative reason mentioned above.

Please make an effort to remember the circumstances under which this had been posted. Spacecase had (several days before, I think) posted a vague claim with no supporting evidence, claimed to be unable to provide supporting evidence, then disappeared. I thought it was unlikely that he had made a truley boneheaded claim as scum, but it was seeming to be more of a possibility. Also, where are you getting the idea I was trying to lynch spacecase?

Anyway, moving on to Day 2, Vivian seemed to have some real life stuff going on and was unable to post much. The little she did post didn't really sway me in either direction with regard to her alignment but there were some noteworthy comments.

Falcone's case on Farside is fairly solid but also fairly old. There doesn't seem to be anything from the end of D1 (though there's almost certainly material to work with) Why the sojurn to DBE before turning back to Farside today?

I could see scum or town making a statement like the above in normal circumstances but considering the fact that Vivian herself

had

farside22 listed at the top of her suspicions list for her content, I really wouldn't expect Vivian to try and discredit Falcone's case in this manner unless she had underlying reasons to do so (as farside's scum buddy).

This was a comment on Falcone more than on farside. I wanted to know, if he was so confident in his case, why he had abandoned it in favor of a weaker case on DBE. Where do you get the impression I didn't think farside was scummy?

Moving on.

What is your take on his play then in that game when compared to this one?

It's difficult to say. I found Admiral off-and-on scummy through most of that game (despite the fact that he was town), and reading the scattered accusations I made (and some of his posts too), I remember that it was because he was working a lot of vieled aggression (pushing many wagons, making low-key attacks). Compare that to his general fear of attacking in this game, and you get quite a contrast.

This, however, means little. It's been over a year since that game, and it's very possible Admiral's play has undergone changes (mine certainly has). Additionally, a playstyle that is different from one that is documented town is not necessarily scummy.

I still need to to some more consideration of point and counterpoint in this game (and I think others do too). One thing I'm seeing is that the two main parts of Incognito's case are in almost direct opposition:
Part A: Admiral is concerned about setting a precedent for his actions
Part B: Admiral's vote for DBE came out of the blue

This isn't a malicious inconsistency, but it makes me suspect pigeonholing (See: CKD in the game I linked; Farside on DBE)

I specifically questioned Vivian about her take on Admiral's play and while she touched on a few things and seemed to explain her thought process for thinking the way she did, I never got the impression that she leaned one way or the other on ThAdmiral. This could be seen as either scummy or as town trying to look at all the facts in hand before jumping to conclusions.

Then of course we ended the day with farside22's hammer of ThAdmiral, so I never really got a feel for who in particular Vivian was most suspicious of or anything. She floated a bunch of Day 2 ideas but nothing really seemed too solid to me.

I was actually very angry that D2 ended when it did. I was just starting to get into a discourse on ThAdmiral when the hammer fell. Things defintiely would have been different if I hadn't been V/LA when that whole thing sprang up

Day 3 Vivian made a few responses to questions I had for her and commented a bit on the farside22 stuff that was going on.

My original interpertation pegged farside's behavior as simply absurd, but the one I'm fond of now just shows her as colossally stupid and/or scummy.

Here Vivian still doesn't really lean one way or the other on farside22. And since I think Vivian is scum it looks like she's attempting to slowly drift towards possible bus-mode with respect to farside22.

Then finally we get this:

Ich bin eine Vagina.

Hmm... the issue of win conditions seems to have been completely glossed over in this setup. On the off-chance that farside is a Jester, I would want at least a little bit of info in trying to figure out if lynching her would lose us the game.

Mod:

Can you do aything to clear this up?

Also, Farside's defence of herself yesterday was far to competent/thorough to belong to a jester. Jesters make 524, not 482.

Vote: farside22

After claiming "Vagina" Vivian goes ahead and places the L-1 vote on farside22 when it was mentioned that more things should be discussed and it was pretty apparent that farside22 was caught scum who was planning on self-hammering to completely shut out any additional information. There was a specific reason I chose to unvote in my 640 after forbiddanlight placed the L-1 vote on farside22. To me it looks like Vivian snuck this vote on there to at least try and make herself look somewhat good the next day by having a hand in the scum's lynch and to allow farside22 to self-hammer so that no further information can be had. I really can't think of any pro-town reason for Vivian to place the vote when she did.

I was operating under the premise that farside was pulling a desprate gambit with her jester claim (she was), and that while she would vote for herself while alive as an attempt to prove the claim, she wouldn't have any reason to seal the deal. I was actually confused then (and now) by your, eventually correct, prediction that farside would self-hammer. That said, it probably was rash to put the L-1 down at that time, but the case at that point seemed overwhelming. Additional discussion wasn't going to reveal any more about whether or not farside was scum (it was crystal clear that she was), but I am sorry for curtailing any more disscusion that might have been fruitful.

So in short, I think Vivian is scum, and I'd be happy to see her lynched today. My overall impression of her play is that it's been very cautious, guarded, and calculating, which is exactly the type of play I would expect to come from experienced scum. I know NabakovNabakov is a solid player as town and some of the stances he took in this game just strike me as bizarre/scummy, so I really don't think he's town here for the above-mentioned reasons.

Please don't burden me with competence. Because I joined this game as an alt for the simple gender change rather than the more typical reason of avoiding this kind of stuff, I've been a fairly forthcoming alt. Please don't throw it back in my face.

And now I expect to get into a posting war.

Seeing as how your main argument rests on my "bizarre/scummy stances" I hope that the above explanations and expansions of my reasoning will be enough. You've posted far too much for me to want this to come to true blows

[/quote]

[Lord Gurgi]

Well, I can't say I'm massively surprised. Nab's defense is not very good, and the fact that she has not clearly stated her suspicions is not encouraging.

How much of your suspicion of me is based on the request to be Night Killed?

Also, is anyone any good at analysing night kills?

[forbiddanlight]

My suspicion? Well, I'd have to say that that was part of it, but also the feeling that you wanted to be behind the farside lynch without actually pushing reasons forth. Like, if farside was looking bad, you wanted to be there so you could cash it in later, but you didn't want to make it easier for everyone, and waited til a few cases were out there before presenting your own which wasn't great. Also hiding behind bad casemaking skills didn't seem great.

[forbiddanlight]

Also, Viv's defense kinda doesn't make me any more or less confident of her affiliation in relation to yours. Well, I might suspect her a little more but I already expressed a disregard for any semblance of pie chart suspicion. A lot of the defense feels like "Well, what can I do, I wasn't there" and then "I was totally honest with my altiness, so you totally shouldn't use my experience against me". I also don't understand how an experienced player could possibly see a desperate given up scum as not self hammering. I said earlier the day is the town's best weapon, anything the scum can do to weaken that is in their favor.

[Incognito]

And now I expect to get into a posting war.

Seeing as how your main argument rests on my "bizarre/scummy stances" I hope that the above explanations and expansions of my reasoning will be enough. You've posted far too much for me to want this to come to true blows

Indeed. I think I'll just leave it at that. My case is there and your defense is there. I'm still comfortable with my vote though.

Vivian, who do you think is scum and why?

[Vivian Darkblaam]

Vivian, who do you think is scum and why?

I've been getting to this. Cut me some slack.

Nonny: I've already posted what I wanted to post about the way Nonny played D1. It was lacking scumhunting despite being involved. It had vote hops for no reason and generally followed the largest bandwagons (or those with the most potential energy). She ultimately joined DBE's wagon for about the same reason she got off. If I ever got some time away from reallife and realtime play, I would go back and take a closer look at how she played days 2 and 3, but just off the top of my head, she asked for reasoning on the farside wagon, presumably to see if she would be convinced by it, but instead, she picked apart the minor points she could and ignored everything else. After that, farside gets almost no mention from her.

LG: I suspect this

is

probably a playstyle issue more than anything else, but a lot of what he says grates on me/doesn't make any sense to me. There are some inconsistencies, some bad logic, but there are also several misgivings. The very sensical claim, the near-prescient scumlist, the continuous focus on farside. Could he be completely bamboozling us? Maybe, but what I've seen of his overt play would indicate (no offense) that he lacks the elegance to fake so much and so well.

I suspect there might be some scumtells buried in the post-walls of Incognito and FL, but I certainly don't have the time to go spelunking for them. If either one of these two are scum, they've done a remarkable job of covering their tracks and synthesizing quality analysis. As such, they probably deserve to win the game after two of Nonny, Gurgi, and I are lynched.

I'm tempted to vote Nonny, but I've relearned my lesson about L-1, and I'd like to see if I can finish my analysis (both to prove the soundness of my reasoning to the town and to see if there's anything that should be misgiving me)

@FL's particular objections to my defense:
-I wasn't there, and I wish I had been. This isn't really something I wanted to talk about, but what am I supposed to do when I'm accused of being wishy-washy on a wagon that I never really got to participate in?
-The "burden of competence", it's a fallacy; look it up.
-I've never experienced a scum who self-hammered in the interest of ending the day unless they have specifically claimed scum and announced their intentions to give up.

[forbiddanlight]

@FL's particular objections to my defense:
-I wasn't there, and I wish I had been. This isn't really something I wanted to talk about, but what am I supposed to do when I'm accused of being wishy-washy on a wagon that I never really got to participate in?
-The "burden of competence", it's a fallacy; look it up.
-I've never experienced a scum who self-hammered in the interest of ending the day unless they have specifically claimed scum and announced their intentions to give up.

I accept the first two points, but I think it was pretty clear that farside was essentially claiming scum at this point and would self hammer. There also was no other conclusion for her at that point so even if she weren't heavily implying her scummy alignment, her best recourse as scum would be to self hammer.

I suspect there might be some scumtells buried in the post-walls of Incognito and FL, but I certainly don't have the time to go spelunking for them. If either one of these two are scum, they've done a remarkable job of covering their tracks and synthesizing quality analysis. As such, they probably deserve to win the game after two of Nonny, Gurgi, and I are lynched.

I'm tempted to vote Nonny, but I've relearned my lesson about L-1, and I'd like to see if I can finish my analysis (both to prove the soundness of my reasoning to the town and to see if there's anything that should be misgiving me)

Sorry about the walls of text. I'm the kind of player that will do a lot of one liner posts after a massive post to get as much clear as possible at a time so I don't let things accumulate and make it more likely for me to lurk and such. I really do hate PBPAs but doing them helps me get things sorted out for me so I can respond to current posts more knowledgeably. Also, Incog scum would amaze me at this point.

Also, I think L-1 is a little safer in this instance unless the scum wants to reveal themselves through quick hammer before you're done. I'd probably vote, but that's more playstyle than anything. I'll be interested to see what you turn up.

[nonny]

I feel almost certain gurgi is scum upon my review and his recent actions. But I want to review vivan now for myself.

also....oooh masochism!! I'm a sadist personally, but I don't mind pain....can tell by my amount of tattoos.

[forbiddanlight]

also....oooh masochism!! I'm a sadist personally, but I don't mind pain....can tell by my amount of tattoos.

Ooh, maybe we should get together. Or you could teach me a few things I can teach my girlfriend .

[Incognito]

Actually, I guess there were some questions you (Vivian) asked in your defense that I should answer. I wasn't sure if they were rhetorical, but I'll respond anyway.

I think my opinion regarding DBE and FL as compared to Mariyta is influenced by the fact that I've played with DBe and Fl before and found them to be somewhat competent players (do you really feel that FaerieLord played like a newb? Do you really think joindate is the deciding factor in these things?) Additionally, Mariyta was the only one to make an appeal to newbishness with her string of "but I don't want to get yelled at posts". The post that you refrence as my vote was made far before I could have formed an opinion on whether or not Darla should be considered a newb.

Can you possibly provide links to the previous games you played with DBE and FL?

I don't know how I felt about FaerieLord's early play. It didn't sway me one way or another, and I don't know if I would necessarily label it as "Newb-ish". The point I was getting at though was if I just went by join dates and number of in-game posts, Mariyta would be the more likely of the two between her and FL to have more Mafia game experience (Mariyta being here for 2+ years and having close to 3000 in-game posts compared to FaerieLord being here for a little more than a year and having a little less than 1000 posts). I realize this doesn't account for other intangibles that could be found in gameplay but it's a pretty decent indicator of experience anyway. Therefore I found it odd that you were willing to extend such lenience to Mariyta's early play but were not willing to extend that same level of lenience to FaerieLord's play.

Please make an effort to remember the circumstances under which this had been posted. Spacecase had (several days before, I think) posted a vague claim with no supporting evidence, claimed to be unable to provide supporting evidence, then disappeared. I thought it was unlikely that he had made a truley boneheaded claim as scum, but it was seeming to be more of a possibility. Also, where are you getting the idea I was trying to lynch spacecase?

Going from memory, I don't believe you had your vote on him (me), but you pretty clearly declared that your guess was that he was a cult leader of some sort. Certainly you're not going to leave someone you believe to be a cult leader alive, correct?

This was a comment on Falcone more than on farside. I wanted to know, if he was so confident in his case, why he had abandoned it in favor of a weaker case on DBE. Where do you get the impression I didn't think farside was scummy?

You declared that Falcone's case on farside22 was fairly old. That type of comment leads me to believe that you were leaning towards believing that the validity of his case was in question and therefore, you might have felt like farside wasn't as scummy as you initially suggested she was.

Also, in response to your last comment, I'm hardly making a burden of proficiency argument against you. The point I'm getting at is I feel like if you're scum, a lot of your stances within this game have been self-serving and unreasonable especially considering the fact that I know your NabNab town play is typically more thoughtful and reasonable. I just don't believe you would have taken the stances you took in this game as town.

[Incognito]

Also, I think L-1 is a little safer in this instance unless the scum wants to reveal themselves through quick hammer before you're done. I'd probably vote, but that's more playstyle than anything. I'll be interested to see what you turn up.

Also, QFT. I don't think an L-1 scum self-hammer is something you need to worry about in this particular situation considering the fact that we likely have only one more scum left. If the scum did self-hammer, then I'd thank her.

[Lord Gurgi]

LG: Nonny and Nab.
Vivian: Nonny and LG
Forbiddanlight: LG and Nab.
Nonny: LG and Forbiddanlight (?)
Incognito: Nab and Nonny/LG (?)

Giving say two points to first priority and one to second that leaves us with:
Nab: 4
LG: 5(6?)
Nonny: 4(5?)
Forbiddanlight: 1

Once you guys clear up the question marks we can move on with the game and lynch someone, if it is me, and my list was totally spot on, I expect a scummy dang it >.<

Nab: You claim that people are using the 'Burden of competence' on you, why then do you apply this to my 'near prescient' scum list?

[Incognito]

LG: I can clear up one question mark for you -- my vote will not be touching you at all. Also, did your avatar always have that hat?

[Lord Gurgi]

It's a maaaaagic hat. DGB made it for me. Incog, do you have a second preference or is that decline to state?

[nonny]

Forbiddenlight is not on my list at this time.

[Lord Gurgi]

LG: Nonny and Nab.
Vivian: Nonny and LG
Forbiddanlight: LG and Nab.
Nonny: LG
Incognito: Nab

Giving say two points to first priority and one to second that leaves us with:
Nab: 4
LG: 5
Nonny: 4

I guess that makes me the lynch today.

[nonny]

am still reviewing vivan but I have two papers to write first.

also winslow should have that hat on in the comic lol